Tiltall or investment?

[Sarah Lighthouse]

Hello all,

Sorry for yet another tripod q but I'm supremely stuck. I've read through countless threads on tripod decision making and it has helped but the final choice is giving me a headache. Far harder than deciding on a camera! Any advise would be much appreciated.

I'm new to large format and I've just bought a wista 45N metal field with 150mm and 210mm lenses. Weighs 5.2lb.

I won't be taking it hiking but may be carrying for 30 mins to 1 hour on rare occasions but unlikely to ever be far from a car. I take a mixture of still life shots on location so sometimes get into tight corners, portraits outdoors and occasional landscapes (May get more into this with large format though) I'm a 5'8 9st female so 6-7lb of tripod is probably my limit.

My biggest decision is whether to buy a cheap tiltall. I'm in the UK but even with customs and shipping should be no more than $175. Buy a more expensive ltripod later if I need one later.

Or.... Rake out a bit more I can afford up to $500. I thought I'd buy a nice head. A monfrotto 410 or a flm cb38ft. Cheaper legs such as second hand monfrotto 055probx and upgrade later if I need them.

Or... Berlebach 222 and forget about the head. Not sure if this is a good idea for a beginner though.

What would you do if just starting out? Thank you in at advance. Looking forward to future conversations about large format :)

Sarah

Ps my current tripod won't hack it. It's a light mid range Velbon. Served me well with 35mm though.

[Darin Boville]

You should buy used. Look for a carbon fiber model--soooo much lighter. I bought a Gitzo G1327 with head for just under $500. Some of the Chinese knock-offs are good, plus other brands liek FLM etc.

But buy used. That way if you don't like it you can sell it without much loss, if any.

--Darin

[cowanw]

But the point of a Tiltall is that you don't need a head.

[Ari]

I went through many tripods, spending a lot of money on them, only to find them lacking in some way; I sold them all at a loss, which is normal.
What I did gain from all that tripod-swapping was first-hand knowledge of what I want and need from a tripod.
If you can first get some good experience with a few different tripods, it will save you money in the long run, as will buying a new tripod when you are well-informed.
Maybe you can arrange to have a day with a few selected tripods from your local retailer, and make your own tests to see what you need; the people at Snapperstuff UK are quite knowledgeable and helpful.

These days, you don't have to spend a lot on a good tripod; the Chinese have made some decent inroads in this area, and CF tripods are quite affordable.
Feisol and Induro are both good brands, and assuming there is no QC issue, their tripods should easily last 3-5 years.

[Bill_1856]

Used TILTALL (get the one made by Leitz), about $100 on ebay, plus shipping and duties to UK. Only weighs 6#. Head is built-in and is one of the best you'll ever find. It will take a LOT of money to get anything better!

[djdister]

You will get all kinds of advice, so here's mine. If weight is a concern, then do not get the Manfrotto 410 jr geared head. It adds a fair amount of weight to the legs (it weighs 2.7 lbs). I would also avoid a ball head, and will suggest a simple pan/tilt head instead for your tripod legs. Or get a Tiltall to start with and worry about getting tripod components later.

[jp]

I use a tiltall for 4x5/MF and a surveying tripod with no head for 8x10. Both work. It's very much more enjoyable to use a tripod with a head. Any small camera aim adjustments require readjusting everything if you do not have a tripod head. I do only a little 8x10 shooting otherwise I'd have bought a head for it. If you want to be practical a tiltall is a good choice for small-midsized 4x5. Manfrotto is good, but I don't think it's that much better to be 2x the cost of a tiltall. Ball heads are good for light cameras, but with LF, they'll flop right over if they get loose and pinch you or jar the camera.

[Jim Jones]

Used TILTALL (get the one made by Leitz), about $100 on ebay, plus shipping and duties to UK. Only weighs 6#. Head is built-in and is one of the best you'll ever find. It will take a LOT of money to get anything better!

Yes, indeed. I've used many tripods, but for 45 years have almost always used Tiltalls; the original American ones, not the recent copies from China. Tiltalls branded Leica, Marchioni, and Star D all worked fine for me for cameras up to 5x7 with a 500mm lens.

[Roger Hesketh]

Sarah check out German Ebay I bought a twin shank Linhof tripod on their for under a hundred quid. No import duty etc to the UK from within the EU. Tripod is Stativ in German.

[DrTang]

again..I'm the only anti tiltall person here

I loath them..I've turned them down for free


I also have about 8 tripods in my apartment..for myself and about 11 or 12 I need to sell

I can't seem to help myself with tripods or camera bags/cases

of all the tripods I own that would not be overkill with a 4x5 (majestic, husky, etc) the one two I tend to grab are a medium weight Linhof and an old Bolex tripod I put a 4027 head on - curiously enough.. both are aluminum legged and I think built by the same company

I am ver leery of any tripod that is too light... I like a measure of heft for sturdiness

my 2 cents and yes.. I will grab the next free tiltall I come across for you tiltall lovers

[Kirk Gittings]

DrTang you are NOT the only anti Tiltall person here. I too hate them. The heads are atrocious and the leg locks are a pain. That was the first tripod I owned and could not wait to get rid of it. We nicknamed them the "guillotine". And that was from using them on a Mamiya C330. Via working with students and school loaners over the years I have never had a reason to change my opinion. I wouldn't consider one for 4x5.

[Jan Pietrzak]

Sarah,

If you need/want all the movements of a metal/carbon tripod then go for one of those. Kirk, knows what is coming next, I for one like and use wooden tripods, YES WOODEN. The Berlebach is a good tripod I have seen them but never owned one. My tripod of choice is a Ries Mod. B (not made anymore) it was a lighter Mod. A. It works fine for 4x5 and up to 8x10. For smaller cameras is use a Ries Jr/Ries 600. The problem with Ries is that the used market is over priced. As far as heads for the Ries I use both Ries and Baco heads (Baco no longer made). So my 2 cents go wood.

Jan

[Kirk Gittings]

I've had a small Berlebach and it was a fine tripod. Don't remember the model however. I currently use a Manfrotto 055MF3 with a 410 head which is all I need-light rigid bullet proof. Doesn't supply the odd toothpick but I can live without them :)

[Bill_1856]

Many of the Linhofs have excellent built-in heads, which is convenient and will save you a bundle ($$$). (I have four and love 'em, but they do tend to be on the short side, though.)

[dsphotog]

Tripods are obviously a very personal choice, (I have several, mostly Manfrotto, so I grab the right one for the job)
I advise looking at a bunch at a local camera shop, or maybe a camera club.

[Michael Graves]

Sarah, I'm going to hold out for the Berlebach. I bought one a few years ago for my 4x5 and liked it so much, I now have three different ones. They are very sturdy for their weight, are easier to handle in cold weather and don't care much if you put them into water for a shot.

[brucetaylor]

I will also throw in a vote for the used Linhof twin shank. Very versatile, well made and should be available on eBay for about $100 with a head. I have a mid sized Berlebach (the 222?)- much of the time a head is not needed. I like it a lot, and you'll still be way under $500.

[John Kasaian]

I've got an old Tiltall off ebay (my other two have walked away!) For a GVII and 5x7 Speed Graphic. I've got no complaints other than I have to keep an eye out for tripod bandits.

[Alan Gales]

Here in the U.S. older Tiltalls can be had for cheap. I paid $75.00 for mine at a local camera show. Tiltalls are a lot of bang for your buck. I much prefer my Ries tripods but bought the Tiltall for use with my Crown Graphic in neighborhoods filled with John's friends, the tripod bandits.

You said that you just bought a 4x5 Wista. If you are new to large format and are not sure if you are going to stay with it then an inexpensive Tiltall may be what you need. If you absolutely love large format and plan on shooting sheet film for a long time, then you ought to get the tripod and head that you will absolutely love. I would think that would probably be a light carbon fiber job and your choice of head.

[Adamphotoman]

I have used a Tiltall and I did like it. But I would go with a carbon fiber. You will end up using it more. The best tripod is the one that you have with you. My G1348 is going on 20 years and still going strong.

[John Jarosz]

Get a tripod that you enjoy using. By that I mean that you should run the candidates thru their paces; lock and unlock the legs, extend and retract them. See that the mechanisms for locking and unlocking are easy for you to do. Same with the head. Decide if you want a quick release built into the head. I use the manfrotto hex plate permanently mounted to my cameras. You don't want to feel that operating the tripod is a chore.

[charleymeyer]

Hi, I've 50+ years of photography and one of my first tripods was the original Marchioni Brothers Tiltall, worked ok, but their was a pinch potential and the unanodized legs turned my hands black so had to tape them. up. Have you considered your local product, the Benbo (NOT Benro) made in England by Kennett engineering? it's a very flexible mid sized tripod that's very usable outdoors and and their Trekker 3 sounds like a possibility for you. Check it out on internet, there are several videos and showing how to set up. It's quite different to set up but I've found my compact 2 quite versatile and appreciate being able to use it in water and mud. Charley

[Daniel Stone]

I got one of these earlier this year, and I love it:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/655205-REG/Induro_471_214_Carbon_8X_CT214_Tripod.html

10yr warranty if you register the purchase online, Gitzo/Manfrotto/etc don't offer that I believe.
I've found the quality to be ~85% of the fit&finish of Gitzo, but it doesn't bother me at all. The Gitzo's just seem slightly more "refined", but at the much lower price that the Induro comes in at, I'm happy to make that sacrifice to put some more $$$'s in to film :)

-Dan

[Sarah Lighthouse]

Hi all

Thanks so much for all the replies, all of your advise has really helped.

Never thought of looking on German ebay before. The language barrier isn't as hard as I'd imagined, because it's set out the same way as ebay UK (I failed my German exam at school).

A lot of good advise saying to try before you buy. So I think I'm going to get more experience with my 4x5 before spending on a tripod. I plonked my wista onto my cheap velbon today and it seemed ok (centre column is a no go though so I'm having to crouch) so I may try and get by with that.

Then I'll visit lots of camera stores and try out all the tripods :) I'm a member of a community dark room, most people shoot 35mm and medium format but there are a couple with large format cameras so I will ask if they have any sturdy tripods I could briefly have a go with. I'll also see if there are any photo shows in the uk in the near future where I can try out equipment. Hopefully they'll have some second hand as well.

If I was in the US I think I'd definitely buy a tiltall as I wouldn't be loosing too much if I hated it (and a steal if I loved it!) just sell it back on ebay. I'm still going to keep an eye out on ebay to see if any come up in Europe or super cheap in the US (Cheapest I've found is $150 with customs and shipping) Or a linholf of reasonable size, there's some at the moment on ebay for $50 £30 but they're either beasts or mice.

Thank you again

Sarah

[Bill_1856]

Hi all

Thanks so much for all the replies, all of your advise has really helped.

Never thought of looking on German ebay before. The language barrier isn't as hard as I'd imagined, because it's set out the same way as ebay UK (I failed my German exam at school).

A lot of good advise saying to try before you buy. So I think I'm going to get more experience with my 4x5 before spending on a tripod. I plonked my wista onto my cheap velbon today and it seemed ok (centre column is a no go though so I'm having to crouch) so I may try and get by with that.

Then I'll visit lots of camera stores and try out all the tripods :) I'm a member of a community dark room, most people shoot 35mm and medium format but there are a couple with large format cameras so I will ask if they have any sturdy tripods I could briefly have a go with. I'll also see if there are any photo shows in the uk in the near future where I can try out equipment. Hopefully they'll have some second hand as well.

If I was in the US I think I'd definitely buy a tiltall as I wouldn't be loosing too much if I hated it (and a steal if I loved it!) just sell it back on ebay. I'm still going to keep an eye out on ebay to see if any come up in Europe or super cheap in the US (Cheapest I've found is $150 with customs and shipping) Or a linholf of reasonable size, there's some at the moment on ebay for $50 £30 but they're either beasts or mice.

Thank you again

Sarah

You got a good head on your shoulders.

[premortho]

Up to 4X5 Graphics, and light "cycle" 5X7s the Marchioni made Tilt-all works fine, and very intuitivley. In newspaper work I always used the Tilt-All, because it was so fast to set up. Later in life, I bought another Tilt-All for my Speed Graphic. They are so simple to use. But for certain purposes, there are better tripods out there. In salt water, for example, the wooden ones are better. But slower to set up. A fast set up is important to me, as I take 90% of my photographs in the winter time, and at my age (78) I get cold quick. So I set the camera up in the car, grab the tripod and camera, put one or two cut film holders in my coat pocket, and go like hell to get set up, focused, shoot, and back in the car to warm up again before bringing the stuff back to the car. I always develop sheet film the same night I take the pic. I realize that it does not get as cold there as here, so your situation may be different than mine.

[Bob Salomon]

Many of the Linhofs have excellent built-in heads, which is convenient and will save you a bundle ($$$). (I have four and love 'em, but they do tend to be on the short side, though.)

Basically three Linhof tripods came with a built-in head, in sizes that would be used for medium and large format and the smallest one is iffy for this use. They were made specially for the USA market and had non-removeable heads, One used the very light weight Report legs with a leveling center column, the next used the Light Weight Pro legs and would easily support your Wista, the last used the legs from the 003717 dual leg series which will hold almost any camera including very large 8x10s. All of these tripods with built-in heads were discontinued in the late 1970s when Berkley lost the Linhof distributorship for the USA and we became the Linhof distributor.

They were stopped as we, and Linhof, felt that if we were to package a tripod with a head they should be removeable so the user could choose if a 3-way, a 2-way, a leveling, a ball or a video head would work best for the user.

We have packaged some tripods with a head in the past but they were still removable.

With the Nuline 1, 2 and 3 series that Berkley sold if one wanted to change heads they would have to buy a new column to replace the column/head that was supplied on the tripod.

[Leszek Vogt]

Unfortunately the 410 adds so much extra weight. My Feisol is pretty stout and being CF, it's also relatively light (it's for tall folk). I believe the 3-legged type is sturdier than the one with the middle column. I've seen people in the field bringing the lighter type (w/middle column)...claiming to be OK for hikes. Whatever works!!! But, they were not using 4x5 or larger. But, larger cameras tend to act like a spinnaker on a sail boat; therefore, I'd get something light and sturdy. To me, as an option, it's easier to find a rock or pile of dirt and place it in the net (near the ground) vs hauling heavy tripod for miles/kilometers. That also goes for the head....whatever the suggested "weight limit" is, this rarely (if ever) answers for the top heavy LF camera. If you ever go bigger than 4x5, you may want to consider things beefier from day one.

On the same note, I've seen several (local) Craigslist characters try to sell their tripods. Ha, even at $10 or $20...and no one would buy them. One guy had a collection of 8 tripods - it's doubtful that he has ever learned from his mistakes. In any case, you'll save yourself some serious amount of cash and (likely) headaches if you choose proper support.

Les

[anglophone1]

Hi, I've 50+ years of photography and one of my first tripods was the original Marchioni Brothers Tiltall, worked ok, but their was a pinch potential and the unanodized legs turned my hands black so had to tape them. up. Have you considered your local product, the Benbo (NOT Benro) made in England by Kennett engineering? it's a very flexible mid sized tripod that's very usable outdoors and and their Trekker 3 sounds like a possibility for you. Check it out on internet, there are several videos and showing how to set up. It's quite different to set up but I've found my compact 2 quite versatile and appreciate being able to use it in water and mud. Charley

+1 for Benbo, British and good! Tiltall is OK, but not as versatile as one of these....................

[Peter De Smidt]

With my Toyo 45AX, a similar camera, I normally grab a 1990s Gitzo series 3 aluminum pod and a Manfrotto 410 head. Both are high quality and easy to use. It's a little heavier than some combos, but it's not that bad. The stability and ease of use are worth the extra weight.

[premortho]

+1 for Benbo, British and good! Tiltall is OK, but not as versatile as one of these....................
Tilt-All is very inexpensive as quality tripods go.

[swmcl]

Sarah,

If I might put in my 2 cents worth. Some people start a journey with something that 'just' fits their immediate needs. This is fine if the journey stops right there. If your photographic journey is *not* going to have heavier lenses and perhaps a larger camera someday then something to just suffice in the present is best I guess.

Perhaps it is a male thing to do the bracket creep thing where you just keep upsizing ...

Tripods are essential in LF and the more of Mother Earth you press into and hold onto the better. There is no escape from physics unfortunately. The more solidity the harder it is for the wind to move. There is also the issue of not collapsing under the weight of the camera. I had a very expensive Gitzo fall over because one of the legs wasn't tightened sufficiently and the camera had slowly over a matter of days retracted the leg enough to topple. Luckily there was no lens on it but the ground glass was history.

I'd recommend waiting for a strong used model to come up for sale rather than buy too lightweight myself. Being not far from a car makes the weight issue almost irrelevant - just make a special effort for the slightly longer and rare journey.

Cheers,

Steve

[John Kasaian]

So what did the OP buy?
I hope she hasn't fretted over this for an entire month all the while her new view camera collecting dust from lack of use!