CLA Sinar Norma

[Darin Boville]

Any Norma fans out there?

I just picked up a Norma and, being the sort of non-mechanical type, want to make a few maintenance adjustments to get it working even better than it already is. I have Phillip Morgan's excellent guide to restoring a Norma but it doesn't cover a few things--or they are not clear in the guide.

First question, all of the movements work well on mine but the rise and fall. Very hard to move at first, getting slightly better the more I play with it. What is the right way to clean the rods/rod chambers? I assume lubricating is a bad idea...

--Darin

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I used spray silicone on the rods which worked very nicely

[Richard Johnson]

X-Fine Steel wool on the rods to clean off years of accumulated gunk....

[Struan Gray]

The rods and the format frames are aluminium (aluminum over there :-), I would only use something as aggressive as steel wool as a last resort. Lots of soft scourers in the cleaning section of the supermarket to try first.

If the problem is corrosion (look for white powdery deposits) you will have to scrub at it with something, but start gentle and work up from there. Scotchbrite is usually more than enough.

If the problem is gummed up grease (owners often apply too much, and the wrong sort), soak in white gas/heptane/naptha. It can be worth disassembling the zero detents (watch out for spring loaded balls flying away) and clearing them out too.

A very light coating of silicone or similar can be worthwhile, but aluminum is pretty good at looking after itself if you keep salt water and other reagents away from it. Oils and the like will only attract dirt and dust.

The rise and fall shouldn't need lubricating, but Sinar supplied a MoS2 grease for Normas. Bicycle shops and watchmakers have more exotic non-sticky lubricants which are not poisonous to lick off.

[Darin Boville]

Hey Struan,

No white deposits that I can see. Spent some time going over it with a clean washcloth--just friction--and they are much better, but still too stiff to use without driving myself crazy. I'll give the Scotchbright a try...thanks. Will consider the spray silicone down the road.

--Darin

[jose angel]

Isopropil alcohol and a small but firm brush make wonders when cleaning grease and dirt without damaging or leaving residues.
Notice that some scrubbers are abrasive, only use them when some kind of sanding is desired.
Not any lubricant will work on a clean Norma. Controls could get too much loose, grease thickness should be considered.

[Adamphotoman]

Most of the guck sticks to and builds up inside the channels where the rods move. If you separate those parts you can clean inside. I would not use anything abrasive. You will notice that it is not easy to put those parts back together again and that it would seem that the rods- or legs are slightly splayed.

I have one complete Norma and 2 extra front standards and they all feel different, look different and are engraved a bit different. They were made in batches over 26 years and they evolved along the way. Production stopped almost 41years ago. I suspect that many Normas are put together from parts made up from different batches, especially as they show up as parts on Ebay.

After unlocking and loosening the rods / legs I push up equally supporting the lens on both sides.

[Darin Boville]

O.K. I'm stuck. I'm following Philip Morgan's excellent CLA guide and am at the beginning, working on the from standard focusing mechanism. I have the focus knob out from the main assembly--but Phillip's has the older model with the lock, mine is the newer one without. Having trouble separating the sleeve from the gear mechanism.

There appear to be three parts, There's the black plastic knob assembly, there's the geared shaft, and then there is the sleeve. How I think it disassembles is that you have to remove the knob first then pull the shaft through the sleeve away from where the knob used be.

If that is correct then the problem is that I can't get the knob assembly to disengage from the shaft. I removed the set screw and the shaft will rock back and firth about 15 degrees in the knob assembly but will not go further and will not slide up and down at all.

Don't see any more set screws. Don't want to use any solvents due to the plastic knob being right there. Puzzled!

Here's a pict. Any ideas?

--Darin

122746

[Adamphotoman]

Sorry Darin,
I also have the locking style. I need to do another CLA on my Norma parts. This time with the proper grease.

The only thing that I have to add is that perhaps some parts should not be touched.

[Darin Boville]

Sorry Darin,
I also have the locking style. I need to do another CLA on my Norma parts. This time with the proper grease.

The only thing that I have to add is that perhaps some parts should not be touched.

I decided in this case not to worry about it. Otherwise the CLA is going well (though slowly!)...

--Darin

[Darin Boville]

Just an update. I'm making god progress on my Norma CLA (actually plural, two 4x5s with an additional 5x7 back). I thought people might enjoy seeing a "before shot." Of the two 4x5s one is newer and seems never to have had a CLA--but it is largely clean.

The other is an older Norma and has had a CLA in the past--but not a very good one. I see three "levels" of lubricant. First is something very hard to get off, a brown stain. Electronic cleaner spay does nothing to it. Acetone gets it of with a little rubbing. Next is some sort of gunky stuff, dirt filled, thick. Comes off easy but it is thick in corners, nooks, etc. Lastly, and most puzzling, is what appears to be be quantities of oil--liquid oil, dripping all over the place. A little electronic cleaner spray takes it all off like water.

A little messy but strangely satisfying to clean up...

--Darin

123083

[Darin Boville]

Problems. I'm working on the rear mechanisms on both 4x5s now and both have issues.

On the newer one I screwed up. Before I watched the excellent Philip Morgan videos or pdf I thought I'd just dive right in. Whoops. I mistook this thing, which looks at first to be something you might unscrew, for something that you might want to apply a fair amount of torque to. So I did. Turns out it is a aluminum plug with smooth sides, not a screw. I seem to have damaged not only the slot but may have deformed the entire part. It is semi-jammed in the camera base mechanism. It turns, with some effort, about 10- degrees but will not otherwise move (the set screw has been removed). Ideas?

You can reach it in a straight line from behind by removing the opposite plug. I'm considering tapping it out with a metal rod that way but thought I would check in here first.

123154

Second problem, on the older one. The three set screws that control the looseness of the focus were all half bad to begin with and I made the one worse and have all but stripped it. It is still in the tight position and I cannot separate the mechanism. Any thoughts here?

123155

I'm a total newbie at this sort of thing and machinery is not my forte to begin with. I'm just following Morgan's videos like an above average intelligence monkey....all advise welcome!

--Darin

[Darin Boville]

Bump. Anyone out there have a suggestion?

--Darin

[Struan Gray]

Your problem is that you have hard steel fittings in relatively soft aluminium. Forcing anything is likely to munge the aluminium and make re-assembly more difficult.

If you have other standards, the first thing I would do is completely disassemble them, and see if that gives you any clues about how to get at the stuck parts on the one you are working on. If that rod is shaped so that it can't be pushed out from the opposite side, you will then know.

The traditional way to get out stuck set screws is to file or grind a new slot and unscrew them. In this case the risk of damaging the surrounding aluminium is quite high. I would first take apart one of the other standards and see if you can't get at the other end of the set screw - grab it with some pliers and unscrew it out of the other end of its hole. I have also known people have success with glueing a rod or small torx screwdriver to the shiny exposed metal end with epoxy and unscrewing once set, but you'd have to be very careful to avoid getting glue on the surrounding aluminium. Finally, soaking the parts in heptane/white gas/coleman fuel is a good way to loosen up old lubricants and gunk, so I would do that before applying significant force.

[Tin Can]

All good advice.

I was a mechanic, forced to machinist occasionally.

A lot of machinists do small jobs for good beer, as they like a challenge and human interaction.

I have a vast array of special tools, extractors, left hand drill bits, ad nauseum. I used to fix a broken bolt or screw at least once a day in my factory days.

Then you get real crazy and call in the Metal Disintegrator. Youtube video here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpwnTkeeGqY)

Of course MD is not cheap, but it absolutely saves expensive machines.

[Darin Boville]

Hey, I need one of those metal disintegrators! i could use it for all kinds of things... :)

--Darin

[Tin Can]

Hey, I need one of those metal disintegrators! i could use it for all kinds of things... :)

--Darin

Reach out, beyond the art scene, California is full of machine specialists.

Of course we have an old saying in the Midwest, 'I don't care what California does.' It came from automotive culture.

I always say California is a foreign country, it's 2000 miles away.

Actually I love California, but I will not live there. I prefer Italy...

[Bill Burk]

Automotive of course... Take it up the street (my neighborhood) to the guys at Pacifica Tire... They probably could solve this for you.

[Darin Boville]

Thanks for all the suggestions and thanks for those who PM'd me with ideas and offers of help. Today I stopped by my local hardware store and bought a tiny Dremel grinding bit--didn't knwo they had them that small--and managed to groove out a new slot in the set screw and was able to get it out without harming the camera. Whew!

Problems still remain ahead but this one is solved...

Thanks again,

--Darin

[Darin Boville]

Oh, I also should mention...one I had the troublesome set screw problem solved I was able to take apart the two major parts of the focusing assembly. This is the camera with all the messy lubricant(s) used on top of each other that I mentioned before. Got it apart--and it looked new. Clean with a little old residue.

The set screw (actually two of the three) were damaged when I found them so I'm guessing whoever did the CLA before wasn't able to get the focus assemble apart and thus didn't add all that lubricant. Mildly interesting.

--Darin

[Struan Gray]

Glad you got it out.

On to the next bit :-)

[Tin Can]

And now you keep acquiring tools and skills forever...

DIY and more tools has always been my motto, since before HS.

[Darin Boville]

OK., the end is in sight. A few problems remain:

1) One of the screws that holds the front swing assembly was bad an I had to saw it off with the Dremel. It's a weird size, it seems--a M5 with a 1.0 pitch. JPEG below. If you know where I can find one...

2) I was sort of dumb. One of the first things I did was undo the front focus rod and take it off the camera. Then I slid it out of the front lensboard rail. Saw a bit of hardened gunk on the rail and thought, heck, why clean it now when I can just force it through? That was a mistake. It went in fairly easily but then jammed big time. I need basic advice here...how to I torque the focus rod without scratching/bening it? See jpeg

3) On the 5x7 rear unit the rail doesn't want to go in the assembly. The Assembly seems too tight, not just a lubrication issue. Other assemblies work fine on the same rail. What's my best move here? Are there thinner rubber pads I might consider? Some way to widen the space to give the rail a little more room?

So close.....

--Darin

124224124225124226

[Drew Wiley]

Got any pals good at working on motorcycles. (Not that I'm mistaking you for someone who goes around with a winged skull logo on your jacket.) But they'll
likely know the correct kind of easy-out for a small steel screw broken off in aluminum, along with a variety of expletives expressly minted for such predicaments. Might be a good time to stop completely and seek help. The Norma was intelligently designed with screws which lock other screws to prevent them from loosening. But some of these screws are awfully small. The nice thing is that they're just ordinary metric things. The exception would be the big locking threads which tighten the entire clamshell to the standard onto the main rail. Otherwise, you've already gotten some good advice from Struan and Randy. But you might be a bit over your experience level here. So either panic or find help from a either a machinist or a Hells Angel.

[Struan Gray]

The bolt: MacMaster Carr used to have a decent selection of metric bolts, but matching the length of unthreaded shoulder and the bevelled head may be difficult. It may be easier to look for parts or junker standards on eBay or eBay.de. If you haven't removed too much of the threaded length of the bolt, you can often tidy up the threads enough to be usable by buying the correct thread die and running it gently up and down the threads. With metric threads of that vintage you don't usually need to worry about all the thread angle nonsense you get in in the imperial world.

The standard. I'd drench the things in solvents before trying to pull. I would also look at rotating and wiggling rather than a straight pull. Patience and finesse is your friend here, not brute force and a wheel bearing puller suitable for HGVs.

The 5x7: I have heard odd reports of some of the Norma-era plastics swelling with age (and storage conditions). I had an extension rail whose end cap would not fit in any other Sinar rail. The plastics are machinable (if you don't go high speed and big cuts) so I turned down my too-big cap on a lathe. You may be able to achieve something similar with emory paper or a mill on the pads on your standard. If hand-sanding, use a reference surface to check (often) that you are sanding evenly.

Sinar used to sell Norma parts direct to the public, but rapacious local distributors often took a swinging cut. Who knows what they have or have not rationalised away in all the ups and downs of the digital transition, but for things like the screw and the plastic rail sliders it may well be worth contacting the factory.

[Drew Wiley]

There are specialty fastener houses with lots of metric stuff where you can just walk in. I'm not in the loop with SF anymore, but here in Berkeley it's Bowlin Equipment. .... I too have a minor mismatch between the Norma and F rails, but it's so slight that all I need to do is be careful not to clamp down right over the
junction of the two. Or I could just replace the entire length with the new style.

[Tin Can]

One cause of plastic fitting tight or swelling, is that plastic absorbs solvents, even water is the universal solvent, and can cause swelling. I used to test and measure this.this.

Newer materials are better, but old is old, ever notice how old bakelite is so brittle? It has lost it's solvents.

Per Drew, patience and moving tight things a little every day may work.

A friend used to unlock seized farm tractor engines by putting a telephone pole through the rear spokes and letting the weight of the tractor slowly move the pistons which were soaked in diesel fuel and old motor. Sometimes it took a year for the tractor to touch ground again.

However steel and aluminum does not swell in contact with lube.

[Drew Wiley]

I wonder what that plastic specifically was. It's pre-Delrin (and there are all kinds of Delrin-related plastics), but obviously a very tough nylon derivative that has
held up well. They switched to Delrin (or a German equivalent) with the F series. But I can tell by the staining that it's nothing to mess with without being
specifically informed, so I just use alcohol or film cleaner to clean it, to be on the safe side. I'm even more careful with lubes, and have all kinds of hi-tech ones
in my shop. Can't remember the exact one I chose, but am sure it was rated for low-temp performance as well as plastic and alum safe. Randy does bring up the possibility of hydration, which seem like the most logical explanation in this case, but only if the plastic is not truly crystalline (rather slopping terminology for full cross-linked bonding, versus "piled spaghetti" molecular construction). The rate of Delrin hydration is extremely low. You can look all this stuff up. What was really smart with the Delrin gearing with the F's is that these were shimmed, so you could accommodate for both friction and wear simply by adding or removing the thin metal shims behind the gears. But somehow I just prefer the Norma, even if a few things could have been improved. It's just so supremely
functional.

[Darin Boville]

Just fyi, the black plastic, whatever it is, does look a tad thicker than on the other units....

--Darin

[Drew Wiley]

Be careful if you do take a Dremel attachment to the plastic, cause you don't know how much heat it will tolerate (melting risk).

[William Whitaker]

Everybody should own a lathe.

[Tin Can]

Agreed, and I want something bigger than my 2 UniMats.

But they could do these jobs.

[Struan Gray]

My daughter and I are saving for a hexapod milling machine. :-)

I first came across the Toyo company as a maker of lathes. Apparently, the founder of the photographic company had trouble getting hold of quality machine tools in postwar Japan, so he designed and built his own, and then sold them as a sideline. They were quite popular among model makers in the UK.

And there's another lead for you Darin. Model makers often have all sorts of oddball dies and taps, and are much like LF hobbyists in that they are willing to invest vast amounts of time and effort for very little return except a bit of cake and kudos - or a competently done photo of their creations. If you're looking for small bits of custom work in metal, a model builder's club would be a good place to trade lathe time for photo services.

[Drew Wiley]

Jet offers a pretty nice little "hobby milling machine" for well under a thousand bucks that would be pretty functional for lots of camera and darkroom projects.
I've never used one, but rather either a full-sized industrial drill press, or have subbed out the tricky stuff to actual machinists. But if I was starting all this
over again, it would be a useful rig to have around, cause it's so compact.