Is a 3D Printed LF camera Possible?

[Drew Bedo]

LF cameras have been made with injection moulded plastic and carbon fiber parts in the past.

Has anyone tried to make part or most of a view camera with any mode of 3D printing?

I do recall hearing about someone from eastern Europe doing this, but no real follow-up.

I would think that the technique could be used to make limited runs of small parts or adapter lens boards and the like . . .what about a set of light-weight standard film holders or resurrect the MIDO system? How about a light-weight Grafmatic magazine?

[rbultman]

For things like lens boards and panels for a field camera, laser cutting from flat stock probably makes more sense as it would be cheaper. I wouldn't be surprised if this (http://www.filmsnotdead.com/2014/09/16/a-new-4x5-camera-the-intrepid-camera/) camera is from laser cut plywood. Presumably you could laser cut the flat metal components too. You might 3D print some small parts. I saw elsewhere that some of the 3D printed materials are not opaque enough at thicknesses that would make the camera light enough.

What about bellows? Could you make something that was supported by coiled wire like a drier vent but would still collapse decently? I guess tube diameter would be a factor or you would have to make one that was rectangular, which would not be standard.

I like your idea about a new Grafmatic magazine. I had a similar thought. They look to be made from stamped sheet metal. Wouldn't know where to begin with that one.

What is the MIDO system?

[polyglot]

Absolutely it is possible. Laser-cut acrylic is likely a more-appropriate technology if you want to design something unique and have it manufactured on the cheap without lots of hard work.

Look at thingiverse or the RepRap wiki and see all the variations of 3D printers, for which all the complex parts are printed on said printers. More than capable of making an LF camera, and I've seen open source medium format cameras printed.

For example, I printed an adapter that widens a Jobo 2502 spiral so that it holds 70mm film. It's got the same bayonet fittings that the spirals do, all directly printed.

[Drew Bedo]

Plastic is no longer the only material available. I read that metal parts may now be 3D printed in brass stainless steel and even titanium. So knobs and catches may be duplicated, gears and tracks too I'd think.All those old focal plane shutters.

Adapters for Polaroid conversions are a natural one-off project idea. Other conversion adapters are an expansion to that concept. Why not a cross-over adapter to link a right angle mirror housing for use as an eye-level viewer on a Graflex Reflex?

[John Schneider]

[QUOTE=Drew Bedo;1172575]knobs and catches may be duplicated, gears and tracks too I'd think./QUOTE]

Knobs (screw machine work), catches (stampings), gears/racks (casting/gear hobbing/horizontal milling) are likely better done the conventional ways. Cheaper (knobs), better mechanical properties (catches), better materials such as oil-impregnated brass racks (gears/racks), etc. Where 3D printing shines would be producing a part that was formerly an intricate casting (Cambo Wide body, original plastic Arca A/B/C format frames, Arca compatible format frames in other sizes (4x10, 7x11, 5x12, :)etc.)).

[ic-racer]

Of course all those things can be made with conventional methods, but I think Drew is interested in things like a $5 3D printed replacement knob or a $50 3D printed film back, rather than a $100 machined replacement knob or a $300 wood-and metal film back.

[koraks]

[QUOTE=Drew Bedo;1172575]
Knobs (screw machine work), catches (stampings), gears/racks (casting/gear hobbing/horizontal milling) are likely better done the conventional ways.
Cheaper, most likely yes. Better - not necessarily. 3D printing of metals appears to yield quite high-quality results. I understand the properties of the parts are comparable from a metallurgical perspective to conventionally manufactured and annealed parts. I was slightly surprised at this, but I know printed metal parts are used in quite critical industrial applications already.

The tipping point is mostly determined by (a) the volumes to be produced, (b) machine + labor costs for both approaches and (c) any molds and other dedicated equipment/rigs required for a specific part.

[Drew Bedo]

Of course all those things can be made with conventional methods, but I think Drew is interested in things like a $5 3D printed replacement knob or a $50 3D printed film back, rather than a $100 machined replacement knob or a $300 wood-and metal film back.

Right: If one is restoring a camera and some part cannot be found, getting one replicated from a part on the other side could be made . . .the price might be less important as the rarity of the camera is high. Replacement gears for rare medium format bodies or diaphragm blades for ancient shutters . . .specialty parts.

High specification plastic construction for things like odd-sized film holders or a new Grafmatic could be made. I'm disappointed that there is a production problem for the Wandrelust TravelWide project. I hope they can bring the first run out and move into general production. It may be that the Helical focusing mount can only be made workable via 3D printing.

[rakkir]

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1327840/pinh5ad-the-3d-printed-4x5-pinhole-camera-kit.html?materialId=6

this is a 3d printed 4x5 pinhole, i assume you could do something similar with a real lens.

[kb2qqm]

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1327840/pinh5ad-the-3d-printed-4x5-pinhole-camera-kit.html?materialId=6

this is a 3d printed 4x5 pinhole, i assume you could do something similar with a real lens.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:143882

Here is a 4x5 pinhole Camera that is 3D printable. I have not tried it as of yet.

[Tin Can]

I don't know how the helical on the Wanderlust is designed, but the other day I was playing with a helical and it is pretty complex. It had 3 sets of concentric threads unlike a normal screw which is one set.

I had not noticed the complexity before.

Then there is the inside and outside parts that must mesh at very close tolerance. This thing was brass and very carefully machined, bet it was not cheap new.

Not so simple.

[Daniel Moore]

I attended a meetup with 3D printer manufacturer Type A Machines recently and for the first time held 3D printed plastic parts. I gave them a good squeeze and was disheartened at the fragility. Certainly, much more expensive machines, printing at higher tolerances and more expensive materials like metals will produce stronger parts but then we're talking price ranges out of the average user's budget. Regarding plastics, it's a shame that ABS is not easily tamed when it comes to flatness as the weaker PLA is. Then there's exposure to heat and the attendant issues.

Have no doubt, there'll be a new polymer/alloy/? that can be made to resolve many of the present shortcomings coming shortly.

[Drew Bedo]

Three-D printing techniques are available on a commercial basis, to make metal parts that are used in high-end (expensive) bicycles and rocket engines. Metals can be brass, aluminum, steel or titanium. I would think that internal and external bits and pieces could be made for cameras if one chose to pay for it.

My initial question was directed at getting maybe a back and body made for some odd format.

[rakkir]

You could certainly 3d print the standards for a odd format.
the biggest problem is the printable area, consumer printers are probably too small.
you would probably want to add the rail after printing.

edit: did you have a specific format in mind?

[Nikonowicz]

Saw this thread so I thought I'd post a response. It is most certainly possible - I have done it. http://nikonowicz.tumblr.com/post/108407029556/on-and-off-over-the-past-7-months-i-have-been Lens boards are on my radar as well. Most of the different ideas you have mentioned are most certainly possible in my opinion. It would just take the right person with enough patience and know how to do it!

If I've done something wrong here let me know - this is my first post.

[Ari]

Very nice job, Nikonowicz; quite impressive.

[Tin Can]

What about bellows?

Sinar/Horseman bellows are the same and most available used and new. It might be good to use those bellows as the frames are nearly universal. Ditto for lens board. Design the parts to fit Sinar frames, which are the same for bellows and lensboard.

Looks great!

Knobs are very cheap. http://www.mcmaster.com/#machine-component-knobs/=vij61x

[David Karp]

Nikonowicz, that is awesome!

[Nikonowicz]

What about bellows?

Sinar/Horseman bellows are the same and most available used and new. It might be good to use those bellows as the frames are nearly universal. Ditto for lens board. Design the parts to fit Sinar frames, which are the same for bellows and lensboard.

Looks great!

Knobs are very cheap. http://www.mcmaster.com/#machine-component-knobs/=vij61x

The parts can accommodate any version of bellows/lensboard - all it would take is 15 minutes of changing up parts. Also, I have been on Mcmaster hundreds of times and I have never seen the knobs page. I'm off to spend a couple hours drooling over them and convincing myself I need some for my camera!

[Tin Can]

The parts can accommodate any version of bellows/lensboard - all it would take is 15 minutes of changing up parts. Also, I have been on Mcmaster hundreds of times and I have never seen the knobs page. I'm off to spend a couple hours drooling over them and convincing myself I need some for my camera!

The best thing about McMaster Carr is every order is important and no order is too small. I use them often, I even used to pick up will call as they are local to me.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

The best thing about McMaster Carr is every order is important and no order is too small. I use them often, I even used to pick up will call as they are local to me.

They also have a distribution center in Los Angeles, so I get them next day if I order in a timely manner. Great service!

m

[Drew Bedo]

Nikonowicz: Very nice job of design and execution!

Have you read anything about the Wanderlust Kickstarter project? They are having trouble with injection moulded parts for a focusing helical. What is the possibility of mking those types of close-rollerance moving parts for a LF point and Shoot?

[Larry Gebhardt]

Saw this thread so I thought I'd post a response. It is most certainly possible - I have done it. http://nikonowicz.tumblr.com/post/108407029556/on-and-off-over-the-past-7-months-i-have-been Lens boards are on my radar as well. Most of the different ideas you have mentioned are most certainly possible in my opinion. It would just take the right person with enough patience and know how to do it!

If I've done something wrong here let me know - this is my first post.

That looks great. Thanks for posting. What did you print it on, and of what material? Is it light tight?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Great thread, good stuff made!

One thing about 3D printing is the amount of time to make a part. When making a significant number of things, CNC still rules.

[Nikonowicz]

@Drew Bedo - I am familiar. Did the not test out injection molding before they ran their kickstarter? If not that's disappointing. In terms of 3d printing the parts, it is possible. But I don't know that it would be better than trying to work out injection molding. 3d printing with ABS filament like I am doing is fickle and not always consistent. In my opinion it carries two different levels of precision - one vertically and another along the plane of the printing bed. Due to the way filament is laid down, the parts interact with each other differently based on their relative orientation. If they are parallel, they can lock into each other because the layers can interconnect somewhat. This adds an additional element of difficulty in making parts that work together properly when using 3d printed components. Of course, this is my perspective on the kind of 3d printing I am doing - it might not be applicable to all kinds.

My designs have as many features which allow for them to be made with 3d printing as they have features designed to allow for a photograph to be made. Honestly I can't say that it would be time/cost effective for Wanderlust to massively use 3d printing as a mode of solution. I could be wrong though...

@Larry - I printed it using my Solidoodle SD4 that I bought ~8 months ago. I am using ABS filament - mostly black for aesthetic purposes. It is light tight. I tested it last night. http://nikonowicz.tumblr.com/post/108522692976/paper-negative-tests-from-the-3d-printed-4x5

Thanks again for all the kind notes. If you all are interested I can post an update once I run some real film through my camera. If there isn't enough interest though feel free to hop over to my tumblr (link above) and follow me there. I'll be posting updates there for sure.

[David Karp]

Keep posting here!

[Drew Bedo]

From one Drew to another: The arena of 3-D printing has cought my imagination. Unfortunatly, I am somewhat tech challenged and still use a flip-phone, do not text, tweet tumble or much else in that relm (selfie?). I do have a card with a dozen or so commands in the older html code so I can change the text on my web page.

Yet I think about what could be done with higher-end 3-D printing in Large Format.

A file for growing a standard film holder might be a start. Custome sized ULF holders might be next. What about a light weight Grafmatic or even a redesigned Mido type system ? How about a high quality Holga body (OK so that would be MF roll film)

The Wanderlust project is delayed by tolerance problems with moving parts,,,, but any system that marries a LF film back with lens mounting cones to make a LF point and shoot would be welcome.

[eduardtoader]

Hello everyone. It's been a few months since I start looking for a way of fitting a 8x10 film holder to the back of my new project : a wooden box with a helical mount made out of an old bulky medium format Russian lens . Problem ? Well , 8x10 spring backs are not growing on trees and the eBay ones are too pricey for me . So, I thought someone might have tried to play with 3D printers or CNC and get an alternative to a common spring back. I am thinking on rubber held GG frame back (similar to Intrepid Camera style) or something around that. Any link will be very much appreciated. All best :)


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[RickV]

I have long had the desire to 3D print flanges, retaining rings, and adapters. I haven't found any evidence that this is not a feasible application. Anyone have any experience in this undertaking?

[Pere Casals]

I have long had the desire to 3D print flanges, retaining rings, and adapters. I haven't found any evidence that this is not a feasible application. Anyone have any experience in this undertaking?

Hello Rick,

First to say is that today 3D printing allows for incredible industrial results, even for Direct Metal Printing https://www.3dsystems.com/quickparts/prototyping-pre-production/directmetalprinting-dmp

But most of us, we are tied to what cheap 3D printers can do. With that tools better you don't print the thread, but make the inner hole of the ring tight in order you can screew the lens in, as it's plastic.

But ring has to be thick as printed parts are not very strong, and can break in the direction the head was moving, so make ring thick, say exterior 20mm larger than inner diameter. If thread on the lens/barrel is short then provide a safety method to avoid lens fall to the ground (a little cable), specially with a very big lens.




I made a 3D printed lensboard for a LOMO O-2 600mm soviet lens

158526


It was lacking the retaining ring, so I made a thick enough ABS plastic lensboard with hole small enough to screw in the lens. The lens is 1.6Kgs.

As low end printers do not make very strong parts, you have and alternative: Instead printing the part just print a mold of the part (should be PE, polyethilene for the mold), spray demolding silicone and fill that with a good resin. I it is polyester make sure it not contains solvents, because in that case it may modify size/shape when solvents evaporate. Look what contraction will have the resing you are to use, the you can design the mold a bit bigger... or use a low contraction resin.

Resin can also contain cut fiberglass (1/2 or 1/4 inch...) just mix it in, this delivers very reinforced parts.

Another choice is to take a 3D printed part and from it making a silicone mold to make strong resin parts. Just search "silicone molding" in youtube.

BTW I was in Brisbane some 10 years ago (coming from EU), in my path to Emerald... What a trip !!! incredible !!! And nice people everywhere !!!

[RickV]

Thank you, Pere. Your reply gives me much information and food for thought. This has, indeed been a great thread as Jac mentioned above.
You would certainly notice a big change in Brisbane from 10 years ago. we're still a small city by anyone's standard but growing exponentially. We queenslanders pride ourselves on being the most welcoming citizens of Australia :-)

[Pere Casals]

As I suggested to Rick in the previous post...

Don't print the spring back parts: just print a Polyethilene (PE) mold for the parts, spray demolding fluid there and fill with a good resin.

Mix cut fiber glass in the resin to obtain ultra strong parts, and use resins of low contraction after condesation (when gets solid) and no added solvent. Mix also black pigment to make it light tight.

I using molds, you can place perforated titanium or steel plates (or rods) inside the mold before you drop the resin, working like armed concrete.


Solidworks + 3D Printing + Molding allows for incredible DIY results.

I'm also to make my own 8x10 and 11x14 spring backs, I'll go to it next March, now I'm with a DIY LF enlarger.

Regards.

[Pere Casals]

Thank you, Pere. Your reply gives me much information and food for thought. This has, indeed been a great thread as Jac mentioned above.
You would certainly notice a big change in Brisbane from 10 years ago. we're still a small city by anyone's standard but growing exponentially. We queenslanders pride ourselves on being the most welcoming citizens of Australia :-)

I felt like home there (Taipans apart :) ) I remember that coming from Santiago/Auckland I had to go to the regional airport by train to take the other flight, I asked a Qantas pilot (I was a bit lost) and he accompanied me until check in, we were talking a lot. This was just first impression. Later I learnt Vegemite (better than Marmite...) and Triple-X, as good as Tri-X !

There are 3 ways to do things: the bad one, the good one, and the australian way. The 3rd one is the one that produces happiness !

I felt some western mediterranean style, it may be sunlight.

[RickV]

A definite similarity in the sunlight, Pere. Love your 3rd way to do things! Cheers.

[Drew Bedo]

Are there not companies that will print in metal to your spec? I would think that a ring or flange woluld be affordable.

A standard file for a generic flange could be modified as neede Diameter, thread pitch etc—and printed in Aluminum, Brass, Steel or Titanium by a commercial online outfit.

Why is this not possible?

I can see plastic printing for film holdersGrafmatics and such but . . . .Why fool around with plastic for this?

[Pere Casals]

Are there not companies that will print in metal to your spec? I would think that a ring or flange woluld be affordable.

A standard file for a generic flange could be modified as neede Diameter, thread pitch etc—and printed in Aluminum, Brass, Steel or Titanium by a commercial online outfit.

Why is this not possible?

I can see plastic printing for film holdersGrafmatics and such but . . . .Why fool around with plastic for this?


It depends, a metal ring is more elegant and safe, for sure, but a plastic ring can be printed for some $5... it depends on budget.

Machine shop service is not cheap, usually...

At post #30 you can see a 3D printed lensboard with a barrel screewed in. The retaining ring was difficult to locate an a custom machine shop job was required. In that way lens board and retaining ring was solved with a $14 cost.

Anyway a professional would do it different, of course.

[wrieselbach]

I think I recall Alessandro Gibellini making a view camera with a fair amount of 3d printing, and Randy Smith at Holga Mods is making 3d printed 4x5 pinhole cameras