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Colin Graham
16-Sep-2014, 08:04
Using a 3010 with L-110 (HC-110 knock off, made by Legacy), I noticed a perfectly superimposed foam texture over the entire negatives. Almost like they were all double-exposed with shots of soap bubbles. What's striking is how well defined they are. It's faint with normal contrast- the shot above has a curve boost to make it easier to see.

I'm brand new to expert drums (this was my first attempt) but have been reading up. I added the developer while the tank is spinning, used 50-60 RPM (or as close as I could keep to it by hand), reversing every 3-4 turns, never stopped, not even for a second. Is this too much agitation? I'm using 700ml of solution. The film emulsion is facing inward.

I'll going to try a few different developers, try a pre-soak. Other suggestions would be great if anyone has them.

Nowhere in my searches have I seen issues with soapy developer. Leave it to me to invent a new screw up. Even if the developer was contaminated, or I didn't rinse the tank well enough, how can this sort of foam last long enough in such a rapidly spinning drum to leave such an indelible impression? Any ideas?

Jim Cole
16-Sep-2014, 08:50
I added the developer while the tank is spinning, used 50-60 RPM (or as close as I could keep to it by hand), reversing every 3-4 turns, never stopped, not even for a second. Is this too much agitation? I'm using 700ml of solution. The film emulsion is facing inward.


Is 50-60 rpm a typo. Did you mean 5-6 rpm? If you're doing 50-60 rmp, that may your problem.

Colin Graham
16-Sep-2014, 09:20
Interesting. Every video I've seen of a CPP/CPA in action, and posts about the proper speed indicate roughly 1/2 to 1 revolution per second. 1 revolution every 10 seconds seems pretty slow.

Arne Croell
16-Sep-2014, 09:43
Try a presoak. Those bubbles might have formed when you filled the drum, not during main processing. I always presoak with the Jobo drums. Btw, 50 rpm is ok, that is one setting of the ATL 2300 and I use it quite a lot. The equivalent 50 rpm setting for a CPP-2 is about "3.5" on the speed dial.

Jim Cole
16-Sep-2014, 09:49
I run my 3010 on a motor that gives me about 9-10 rpm with very even development. I didn't know about the recommended speed. Color me ignorant.

I agree with Arne about the prewash.

Jon Shiu
16-Sep-2014, 10:16
some reference materials:
121947121948

Colin Graham
16-Sep-2014, 10:46
Thanks for the replies. Yes, pre-soak is on the list to try next. I'll try a slower speed too. 1 spin per second did seem a little aggressive, hard to keep it from surging unevenly in the rotation, even using two hands.

ic-racer
16-Sep-2014, 13:06
This is a brand new drum? Have you used the drum before? Did you wash it with soap? Did someone else wash it with soap? Try cleaning the drum well and do a test run without film.

Colin Graham
16-Sep-2014, 13:40
Yes, it was the first time I've used one. After cleaning it thoroughly I did a few practice runs. Practiced loading film, funneling solution in consistently, timing how long it would take to fill with developer and how long to drain the solutions. Also practiced getting the top on squarely so it would rotate properly. I made a roller tray, spent the extra time to level it with shims and put an anti-slip pad under it so it wouldn't move out of position. Tried to practice everything I could think of.

I never use soap on developing trays or tanks, and at no point during the cleaning or any of the practice runs did the water look soapy. The tank is used but it's in excellent shape. No leaks during processing. I even left the film in the dry tank for 10 minutes under bright room light while I answered a phone call, so it can't be a light leak- the margins are all perfectly clear.

Most developers get a little foamy if shaken really vigorously, so maybe that's all this is. I'll try a practice run with real developer to see if it gets frothy after a few minutes of this sort of agitation.

No doubt this is just a dumb goof, but I'm as interested in the artifact as the error. It's like a chemical snapshot of an single instance in the developer. Seriously, these bubbles look like I stand-developed the film in beer foam under a bug lamp. Not in a whirling, sloshing drum. Even a pinhole light leak in the drum wouldn't leave such a perfect static impression. Since it was just test film, it's kinda cool. But I imagine it'll get old soon enough!

Ari
16-Sep-2014, 14:47
Colin,
Might it be Photo-Flo? Recommendations are against using that in the Expert drums.
I fill a tray with water/Photo-Flo solution, and as the film comes out of the wash, I dip it in the tray, then hang it up to dry.

Also, I'm one of those who pre-soak every film in every tank, the 3010 is no exception; try that if just to rule it out, as others have said.

Colin Graham
16-Sep-2014, 16:28
No, no photo flo or wetting agents of any kind, haven't needed to use those in years.

I'll try pre-filling an empty tube with developer if the presoak doesn't work, maybe pouring the stuff through the funnel is working it into a lather.

Jim Cole
16-Sep-2014, 16:40
No, no photo flo or wetting agents of any kind, haven't needed to use those in years.

I'll try pre-filling an empty tube with developer if the presoak doesn't work, maybe pouring the stuff through the funnel is working it into a lather.

Colin,

I use a funnel, so I don't think that's the issue.

Ari
16-Sep-2014, 16:43
Colin,
Might you be using Indicator Stop Bath? I stopped using it many years ago, as once in a while it would give me patterns on the film, not unlike your bubbles.
Now I just use water for stop bath.

Sal Santamaura
16-Sep-2014, 16:44
...I noticed a perfectly superimposed foam texture over the entire negatives. Almost like they were all double-exposed with shots of soap bubbles. What's striking is how well defined they are. It's faint with normal contrast...how can this sort of foam last long enough in such a rapidly spinning drum to leave such an indelible impression?...It can't. I always get a small amount of foam, regardless of developer, but drum rotation keeps it from having any affect on the negatives. Something else is causing your problem.


Try a presoak. Those bubbles might have formed when you filled the drum, not during main processing. I always presoak with the Jobo drums. Btw, 50 rpm is ok, that is one setting of the ATL 2300 and I use it quite a lot. The equivalent 50 rpm setting for a CPP-2 is about "3.5" on the speed dial.I agree with everything Arne wrote except his last sentence, which doesn't apply to your manual rolling anyway. For those who do use a Jobo processor, see this post to obtain definitive information on which speed setting results in what actual rotation speed:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86072-JOBO-CPA-2-and-Expert-Drum-3005&p=836600&viewfull=1#post836600

Arne Croell
17-Sep-2014, 06:43
I agree with everything Arne wrote except his last sentence, which doesn't apply to your manual rolling anyway. For those who do use a Jobo processor, see this post to obtain definitive information on which speed setting results in what actual rotation speed:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86072-JOBO-CPA-2-and-Expert-Drum-3005&p=836600&viewfull=1#post836600
Thanks for pointing that out and for the link, Sal. Obviously, I have an older CPP-2 (in Germany, runs on 220V), and my number was actually based on measuring the rpm on my unit with a stopwatch.

Colin Graham
17-Sep-2014, 07:24
Well, I ran a second batch with a presoak, and it looked good that I ran a third batch without a presoak, essentially just like the first one that came out all wonky. That one was artifact-free too. I must have contaminated something on the first run, who knows.

Thanks everyone for the assistance with this, wish I could say for certain what the problem was. I'll give an update if I ever figure it out.

skuuterboy
22-Sep-2014, 13:27
I used to process b&w film commercially on a jobo and we would occasionally see foaming patterns on over-exposed film with even tone areas (skies or seamless gray backgrounds). We eliminated the problem by adding 1 drop of LFN to each tank of developer. We also always used a plain water presoak for 5'. I always use a drop of LFN in the developer now whenever I run film on a jobo and I never have foaming issues anymore.

Jim Noel
22-Sep-2014, 15:17
Try a presoak. Those bubbles might have formed when you filled the drum, not during main processing. I always presoak with the Jobo drums. Btw, 50 rpm is ok, that is one setting of the ATL 2300 and I use it quite a lot. The equivalent 50 rpm setting for a CPP-2 is about "3.5" on the speed dial.

Absolutely, use a 2 min. pre-soak, preferably with LFN. DO NO USE Photo Flo as it becomes a catalyst.
Also, run the motor at the slowest speed possible. I turn mine on and turn up the rheostat until it just begins to turn and I have never had a problem with bubbles.