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stradibarrius
21-Aug-2014, 08:07
I have decent print skills and can get "good" not "great" results in the darkroom. If you wanted to take your printing skills to the next level how would you do it?

bob carnie
21-Aug-2014, 08:23
Make more prints.

Jim Noel
21-Aug-2014, 08:48
Invest in an image you really like, not a reproduction or digital, and put it up where you can put your prints beside it for evaluation. It does not have to be a high priced image but can be one you pick up at an art mart, or camera show, or Goodwill store. It just has to be an image you like and can be comfortable with viewing it over and over. Then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

paulr
21-Aug-2014, 08:59
I think it helps to study the prints you consider great. Look at them analytically; try to figure out why they work on you the way they do. And how the printmaker accomplished it.

A great help for me was getting my hands on a copy of the National Gallery of Art Paul Strand monograph that came out sometime in the 90s. The plates were printed by Richard Benson, with multiple monochrome inks, tints, and varnishes. They were as good as any Strand darkroom print I'd seen, and very true to the spirit of the originals.

I spent a lot of time with that book under my print viewing lights, asking how'd he do that. The most specific lesson I learned was about handling bright highlights ... I was often amazed by how Strand did it, while rarely impressed by how Ansel did it.

All of this is about printing esthetics and decisions ... it's not specifically helpful with the nuts and bolts of how to get there. For the technical stuff, you just have to experiment and research and ask a lot of arcane questions in places like this ...

dasBlute
21-Aug-2014, 09:37
Make better negatives, and print print print.

Sometimes... work outside your normal approach, make a print a little
too light/dark flat/contrasty, let it sit for awhile and see how if feels a
week or two later...

For me, Larry Bartlett's 'Black and White Photographic Printing Workshop' showed step-by-step
not just the hows, but some of the whys as well when approaching an image...

And also I've read a lot of Bob Carnie's past postings :) Yeah, I'm a fan

jnantz
21-Aug-2014, 09:41
print absolutely anything and everything you can find

ic-racer
21-Aug-2014, 10:20
I have decent print skills and can get "good" not "great" results in the darkroom. If you wanted to take your printing skills to the next level how would you do it?

After I had been printing for about 25 years, in 2001 to 2007 I wanted to go to the next level. Some things I did (short of going to a workshop):

Join this forum and APUG.
Read all the posts of Bob Carnie (back then he had not so many as now)
Start enlarging large format negatives (4x5 and 8x10)
Upgrade darkroom.
Watch any Youtube video of 'famous person' darkroom technique. Actually watch how they hold the instruments, or cards and how they move them around etc.
View and read the technical info on Sexton's Listen to the Trees (I think that is the one that goes into some detail)
Scan Sexton's website (is it even the same now?) for tidbits of info
Scan Clyde Butcher's (and any other film printer's website with technical details) for technical tidbits
Join up with local film and large format photographers
Maybe most important of all...go back and print 'hard to print' negatives from my thousands of negatives. Ones I passed up first time around.

I found myself with the bad habit of not printing many of my negatives that would have required perspective control, complex dodging or burning, bleach, different contrast for different parts of the image, etc. So after 25 years I had refined my personal printing technique into lazyness.

Daniel Stone
21-Aug-2014, 10:30
I don't print a "lot" like some here do. I'm very selective of which negatives actually get printed(heck, even scanned these days, time is too short to waste on "mediocre" shots!)

Anyhow, I've found this short writing by Michael Smith to be a good reference to printers of any experience level:
http://michaelandpaula.com/mp/onprinting.html

And I'll echo what Bob Carnie said: "Print more"

cheers,
Dan

brucetaylor
21-Aug-2014, 12:13
Yea, "print more."

As I re-enter the darkroom after 29 years, it has been a challenge to make a decent print. I finally got ONE I was kinda happy with last weekend-- after many days in the dkrm and 120 sheets of paper. It's clear to me that it's about the doing. At 1200 sheets I'll be a toddler. I have to print print print every weekend.

lfpf
21-Aug-2014, 12:44
I have decent print skills and can get "good" not "great" results in the darkroom. If you wanted to take your printing skills to the next level how would you do it?

Who/What: A method for transitioning from personal "good" results to selected "great" results is:
1) defining your personal/selected "great" print expectation,
2) defining your "good" results and
3) identify/sort/select and change materials and processes (m&p) to realize the difference

Who/What: Which m&p produced that "great" result and which m&p are producing "good" results? Adjust as needed; any historic "great" can be difficult with unavailable m&p while current m&p can also be exploited for another "great." No sweat though, albumen printing (1850) and wet-collodion negs (1851) remain options. Current "alternative processes" are mostly historic processes. No-can-do are Super XX negs printed on Kodak papers because these and others are unavailable, while still others are available.

What (aka tools of trade): M&p aspects include system format, sensitometry, chemicals, film selection, lens selection, exposure, development method, post-processing and THEN comes printing the neg with aspects applied to printing.

How? Resources include your curiosity, this site, general browsing, classic pubs, patent lit, bibliographies, on-line searches, library, book stores, and esoteric pubs.
How/When/Where? Follow a hunch, form hypothesis/experiment, follow leads and take lots and lots of pictures in the process!

A system approach will produce "great" prints. Hone each aspect for ease-of-use.

Find a method that works for you, then pursue until your prints are "great."

Eric Biggerstaff
21-Aug-2014, 13:04
Contact a photographer whose work you admire and ask about workshops or lessons. A couple of days spent with a master will get you along much more quickly and will get you past the frustration. It may cost you a bit in travel and fees but in the long run if you are serious about being a great darkroom printer it will be well worth the investment.

Merg Ross
21-Aug-2014, 17:02
It seems to me that part of the exercise is to acknowledge that there is no such thing as a "perfect" print. Well, in a sense there is, that being the print conveying one's personal vision and feeling. So, let's take the student who studied printing technique with Ansel, hoping one day to be skilled enough to make prints as fine as his. Ansel's accomplishment was his ability to capture and skillfully present his vision in the form of a superb gelatin silver print. His vision, his print. The student should strive for the same personal result, not to be another Ansel clone.

Once the objective is defined, those who have suggested practice, practice. practice are correct. However, that is only a step in achieving the goal -- a print reflecting your vision and intent. There are many fine printers, Strand was mentioned, Ansel, Brett Weston, Paul Caponigro, Minor White, et al. They all had personal technique, conveying disparate visions.

Aside from dedicated practice, an understanding of photo chemistry is helpful as materials continually change and disappear.

Bill_1856
21-Aug-2014, 17:52
The first question is: are you having trouble with the technical or the aesthetic aspects of your printing.
If it's technical mastery you need, you need a GOOD hands-on workshop. It ain't gonna be cheap.
I took one with George Tice at Maine Photographic Workshop. Changed me from a mediocre printer to a tolerable good printer.
If it's aesthetic, then you need some private one-on-one sessions with a master printer. I don't who to recommend, but times are tough, so there should be some available.

Jim Jones
21-Aug-2014, 17:56
I think it helps to study the prints you consider great. Look at them analytically; try to figure out why they work on you the way they do. And how the printmaker accomplished it.

A great help for me was getting my hands on a copy of the National Gallery of Art Paul Strand monograph that came out sometime in the 90s. The plates were printed by Richard Benson, with multiple monochrome inks, tints, and varnishes. They were as good as any Strand darkroom print I'd seen, and very true to the spirit of the originals. . . .

In an exhibit of 100+ prints by Ansel Adams curated by his daughter-in-law, I compared 27 prints from Ansel Adams: Classic Imates (New York Graphic Society, 1985) side-by-side with images from the Adams' family collection. The reproductions came very close to those originals printed by Adams, or under his supervision, or by printers who had worked closely with him during his lifetime. Other books by the New York Graphic Society have maintained this quality.

jp
21-Aug-2014, 18:50
Good suggestions so far. Do get to see actual prints made by some of the masters Merg et.al. have mentioned. I've seen nice Karsh prints too but he probably didn't print them. Whatever the case, these people have been top of the game for analog B&W start to finish and seeing some of their work NOT in a book but in person is good motivation that you'll need while following the advice to print, print, print.

dsphotog
21-Aug-2014, 19:50
You didn't state what about your prints needs improvement.
What enlarger, lens, paper, and chemicals are you using?
Start with fresh chemicals and paper.
Make your processing procedures consistent.
Test your safelights to prevent subtle fogging of highlights.
I make a lot of test strips before committing to a print.... even then, the print tends to evolve, fine tuning burning and dodging as i print.
I keep notes on the "recipe" for printing each neg, including exposure time, burn & dodge instructions, lens & aperture, enlarger height, contrast filtration.
When evaluating tests, allow for "dry down" of the paper.
Play music you like, or a ballgame, on the radio..... you'll be in the dark for many happy hours!

matthew blais
21-Aug-2014, 21:08
Forget wasting paper..if you don't understand the printing methods to make your print "sing", take a 1 or 2 day workshop from someone who knows how to print.
The waste in paper as you struggle to get what you want could better be spent on that workshop. Then print, print print...

David Karp
21-Aug-2014, 22:37
I took the a workshop from John Sexton. Immediately my prints were much better. Others to consider: Alan Ross, Bruce Barnbaum.

analoguey
21-Aug-2014, 22:49
Anyhow, I've found this short writing by Michael Smith to be a good reference to printers of any experience level:
http://michaelandpaula.com/mp/onprinting.html

And I'll echo what Bob Carnie said: "Print more"

cheers,
Dan


Thats a very interesting (and good) article ! I especially find the emphasis on being able to dodge and burn a lot more quite interesting.

Btw, does anyone use a metronome here? What kind - ebay has tons of varieties.

David Karp
21-Aug-2014, 23:21
I use a metronome. I bought it at a local music store. A simple digital one. Not very expensive.

Tim Meisburger
22-Aug-2014, 00:09
I use a metronome as well. No need to buy one if you have a smart phone, as you can download a free metronome app (mine is called, I think, Metronome Beats).

Jim Jones
22-Aug-2014, 05:30
. . . Btw, does anyone use a metronome here? What kind - ebay has tons of varieties.

I use a cheap digital clock that ticks once a second. I've also used a wind-up clock that ticked four times a second.

Bruce Barlow
22-Aug-2014, 05:33
Practice is good, structured practice is better.

Michael Smith's advice to "outflank the print" is excellent, and great for practice as well as printing fer-real.

So, have a few practice sessions.

Want to learn more about contrast? Make a print that you know is too soft, then go too far and make one that's too hard. Don't sneak up in it from the same direction, because you'll quit before you get there. Make big changes so you know you're on the other side. Then make two that are closer together, and keep narrowing down until it's juuust right.

High values? Same thing. Shadows? Ditto. Balance of tones? Yup. Dodging, burning, et cetera.

Test your paper for drydown - that is, how much you need to reduce the exposure of the final print after it dries, to have it match the one, when wet, that you like. I'll betcha it's 10% less. Do that and avoid dingy highlights.

How much is one stop difference in print exposure? Find out. Half a stop? A quarter? Make the prints and find out.

We learn best by doing. DO these things, and you'll end up much better and much smarter.

The biggest value is eye training. If your eye gets better - and that only happens if you SEE the print, you can't guess - then your printing overall will improve.

Can you listen to music while doing serious printing? I learned that I can't.

I use three second bursts of light, which I find eminently controllable. Are five three-second bursts different than one 15 second? Find out. What's the difference between, say, 14, 15, and 16 seconds, adjusting from 3-second bursts? Find out.

Exercises like these, for me, are also fun - I make a lot of mistakes, some intentionally, and learn a ton. Much of what I learn is peripheral to actual printing, but has a lot to do with being more efficient in the darkroom.

DON'T sweat paper. Buy the cheapest stuff you can find with which to practice, so you resist the urge to skimp and be cheap. Use the remnants for proofing. I bought a 250 sheet box of Arista RC. It's way good enough for practice.

It also really helps to have a standard reference light. I have a spotlight similar to what I use in my gallery space to illuminate the print. I also put it on a plastic stand that's always at the same angle, so I am consistent.

It is also highly useful to have a reference print - one that maybe you got from somebody else that has a full range of tones, proper contrast, etc. Take your practice print and compare it. Look pretty good? Cool. If not, why not? You'll be able to diagnose it almost instantly.

Is your paper fogged right out of the box? Test and find out. When you find out that it is (and you will...I have yet to find one that isn't), get you some benzotriazole, test to find out how much you need to neutralize the fog, and only that much, and then practice.

Good luck, and happy practicing!

analoguey
22-Aug-2014, 23:24
I use a metronome as well. No need to buy one if you have a smart phone, as you can download a free metronome app (mine is called, I think, Metronome Beats).

Thanks, I just tried out a few now. Do you set a specific time there or let it run and count out the beats?
Only issue I have with using a phone is that removing gloves during dev is a chore.


I use a cheap digital clock that ticks once a second. I've also used a wind-up clock that ticked four times a second.

Hmm -maybe I misunderstood, a metronome is only used for enlarger exposure?
A timer for everything else?

Mark Sawyer
22-Aug-2014, 23:42
Prints are a record of the negative. To get better prints, make better negatives.

Learn how to make the best negative. Exposure for density, development for tonal range. Understand how to look at a negative and evaluate it on those grounds.

Contact printing will give the best prints, and teach you the most.

analoguey
23-Aug-2014, 00:12
Thats very good and practical advice, Bruce! I will definitely test it out.


Practice is good, structured practice is better.

Michael Smith's advice to "outflank the print" is excellent, and great for practice as well as printing fer-real.

So, have a few practice sessions.




We learn best by doing. DO these things, and you'll end up much better and much smarter.

The biggest value is eye training. If your eye gets better - and that only happens if you SEE the print, you can't guess - then your printing overall will improve.


Thats quite similar to motorbiking/driving.
How do you organise thoughts and/or take notes of a darkroom session?
I usually finish and then note down the highlights. But I'm not very convinced that I can look up the right one in a pinch. (I write it all into a notebook - pen and paper)




DON'T sweat paper. Buy the cheapest stuff you can find with which to practice, so you resist the urge to skimp and be cheap. Use the remnants for proofing. I bought a 250 sheet box of Arista RC. It's way good enough for practice.

It also really helps to have a standard reference light. I have a spotlight similar to what I use in my gallery space to illuminate the print. I also put it on a plastic stand that's always at the same angle, so I am consistent.

Aha.
Yes, I have seen the print in morning light after a full night session and found it different to how it looked at the darkroom. I'll get a standard light to see them all in.



It is also highly useful to have a reference print - one that maybe you got from somebody else that has a full range of tones, proper contrast, etc. Take your practice print and compare it. Look pretty good? Cool. If not, why not? You'll be able to diagnose it almost instantly.

So are you suggesting it's best to be able to understand the full range of tones in a print before starting printing?



Is your paper fogged right out of the box? Test and find out. When you find out that it is (and you will...I have yet to find one that isn't), get you some benzotriazole, test to find out how much you need to neutralize the fog, and only that much, and then practice.

Good luck, and happy practicing!
Is Benzo safe for regular house storage or does it need some extra care?

Tim Meisburger
23-Aug-2014, 00:20
I turn on the metronome (phone) and put it in my pocket. I use it to time both exposure and development of the print (I use RC paper so its only a minute for development and a minute for fix), just counting the beats. When I leave the darkroom (closet) I usually turn off the metronome, as it irritates my family! I use it at one second, but you can set it for quarter or half seconds if you prefer.

polyglot
23-Aug-2014, 00:24
Have you read, understood and successfully tried everything in Way Beyond Monochrome? No? Then that's your next step to technical greatness. Artistry I cannae help you with.

I'm not sure we can meaningfully suggest specific techniques though without know where you're at. Presumably you can dodge and burn and your negatives about right, but have you tried split grade, tried dodging/burning different areas at different grades? Toning? Split toning? Masking?

There's so very much to try and much of it is time consuming, so you might benefit from things that save you a bunch of time. If you're doing 3 or 5 test strips per frame, that's a huge time-sink waiting for them to develop. Having a baseboard meter, f/stop timer and calibrated curves on your paper means you can pretty much nail your print first go, then do fine adjustments to it. Skipping a whole bunch of tests and crappy workprints upfront means you can get to a "good" print much faster and therefore work on more advanced and time-consuming techniques, or produce more good prints for the time you have available.

Robert Langham
31-Aug-2014, 08:50
OK, I rarely offer advice in technical stuff, but without seeing an image, here goes:

1. Are you printing with a cold light head? Is the cold light head the right COLOR for the use of multigrade filters? I find being able to go just a half-step up or down to be really helpful in printing. Many cold lights are unresponsive to filters, due to head color.

2. Are you allowing for dry-down?

3. Do you have a sheet of glass over the fixer tray with a light dedicated to it to evaluate prints? You need a tungsten bulb for illumination. I use an old square safelight with the filter out rigged up over a big sheet of glass, (big enough for 20X24) over the first fix. All the test strips acumulate there until I toss them. I don't have to walk anywhere to turn the light on.

4. Are you sensitive to the COLOR of a black and white print? I like them warm and most b & W papers have an awful color.

5. Do you know how to pre-fog to print highlights down? I have an enlarger set up just to fog paper. White skies just can't be burned in, you have to fog them. Paper should be fogged just enough to kick off density when exposure is added when you print the neg on top of it. If your pre-fog by itself shows density in a test, that's too much. Once you are set you are set. Gotta have that extra enlarger. Enlargers cheap or free currently.

120937 This sunlight could NOT be burned in. Pre-fogged the whole sheet for five seconds, no problem at all.

6. Are you spotting down tiny white spots- (not just dust on neg), to reduce "chatter?" They are everywhere, and your prints will calm down considerably with a little aggressive spotting. Take out those shining pebbles, spot those trees shut!

7. Do your prints go up on a wall under glass on a print rail for an honest look after printing? They will go dead or shine on after a few days viewing.

120939 Just pre-fogged the top edge of this one so as not to degrade the snow. Pre-fog does NOT show on the unexposed paper under the blade of the enlarging easel. If it does, you are fogging too much.

Hope this helps. Sorry to stick my nose in and wouldn't without being asked directly.

Robert Langham
31-Aug-2014, 09:07
OK, what's your system? Are you shooting the film, then contacting proofing EVERY negative, shooting iphone files of them, or the original scene and running them through an editor to see how they look, how it looks in B&W, putting contact prints in little reuseable mats and putting them on the wall? Going over the proofs with cropping bars? Showing them to friends whose opinion you trust?

Here's three I am looking at right now. When they go in the darkroom, (if they make it that far), I'll know quite a lot about them.

120940 120941 120942


Your images and proofs can teach you a lot.

Robert Langham
1-Sep-2014, 07:29
Have you run a field-illumination test with a blank sheet of paper under your enlarger to see if it projects hot or cold spots? (It does.) I had a Zone VI Type II that had hot spots, cold spots and the corners were different colors, (and therefore different CONTRAST). Never seen a perfect enlarger but the one I have set up now is OK. It's an old Omega E6 with a Cemil LED head on it. Wish I could find someone to rip the tubes out of that T2 and fill it with LEDs.

121027

Bruce Barlow
1-Sep-2014, 12:15
Thats very good and practical advice, Bruce! I will definitely test it out.





Thats quite similar to motorbiking/driving.
How do you organise thoughts and/or take notes of a darkroom session?
I usually finish and then note down the highlights. But I'm not very convinced that I can look up the right one in a pinch. (I write it all into a notebook - pen and paper)

I have a standard sheet that I use for notes - based on what Fred Picker used. There should be an example of it around somewhere.


Aha.
Yes, I have seen the print in morning light after a full night session and found it different to how it looked at the darkroom. I'll get a standard light to see them all in.



So are you suggesting it's best to be able to understand the full range of tones in a print before starting printing?


Sort of. I keep the print in the darkroom, and compare what I'm working on to the reference. If my whites are dingy, my blacks weak, or my contrast goofy, I can see it compared to the reference.
Is Benzo safe for regular house storage or does it need some extra care?

Golly gosh, yes. I mean, I wouldn't combine it with gin, but I'm alive and not appreciably shorter having had it in my darkroom for a lot of years.

platypus
8-Jun-2015, 05:42
Just stumbled across this thread - thanks to all for the amazing advice!

sun of sand
10-Jun-2015, 18:49
This is old but eh

I'd say besides more practice
If you're already pretty proficient at something practice isn't going to always take you to the next level
you need competition of some sort
Against yourself
Others
Or both

Display some photographs somewhere for public viewing
You'll either be motivated to produce your best or be challenged once you've entered what you already have

If that doesn't do it
Truth is that photography is likely just a hobby for you
And there's nothing wrong with that

Luis-F-S
10-Jun-2015, 20:43
Contact a photographer whose work you admire and ask about workshops or lessons. A couple of days spent with a master will get you along much more quickly and will get you past the frustration. It may cost you a bit in travel and fees but in the long run if you are serious about being a great darkroom printer it will be well worth the investment.

Probably the best advice anyone can give you, and Eric is a wonderful printer. I took a workshop from Fred Picker back in the late 1980's and then one from Oliver Gagliani a few years later. Oliver was a wonderful photographer and printer, and taught how to make a good printable negative and then how to print it. Many of the participants in Oliver's workshop were successful professional photographers. I also taught B&W Photography & B&W Darkroom at our local college for about 12 years. If there is someone in your area whose work you admire, see if you can work with them a bit. This will work much better than any of the self help methods. Good luck!

Rolfe Tessem
19-Jun-2015, 17:02
When I look at prints I like at a gallery, especially prints from the 40's, 50's and 60's, the blacks are deeper and the skies and highlights are not pure white but are down 1 or 1 1/2 zones.

That was a great starting point for me...

Peter De Smidt
19-Jun-2015, 17:28
The two things that made the biggest impact on my printing quality was getting an F-stop timer, a Stopclock Pro, and following Paul Butzi's method for consistent highlight exposures while varying the contrast of the print with settings on a color head. These things allowed me to not worry near as much about technical matters while printing.

Steve Sherman
19-Jun-2015, 19:46
All good advice. My 2 cents may not be exactly what you were hoping to hear, there simply is not substitute for making negatives and printing them time and time again, Make better negatives via consistency and learning to see a quality of light best suited to your final medium. Silver Gelatin requires a softer, more subtle light than all UV final processes.
If Silver Gelatin prints are your final process, the state of the art technique is Split Contrast printing by someone who knows how to exploit this incredibly powerful technique !

Enjoy your journey, it will be rewarding !!

Also, 40 watt bulb over the fixer tray @ 3' or more