Tetenal E6 times for 270ml solution on CPE-2

[kazzam]

Hi everybody, can anybody help. I've searched for this and finding little or nothing.

I'm using a Jobo CPE 2 with 1520 Unitank for my 120 films and a 2523 for 4x5. I split the tetenal kit into 2 x 500ml batches for the 3 bath bottles. I process single roll at a time in the 1520 and 6 sheets in the 2523. The problem I have is both tanks only require 240ml & 270ml for processing and I am not sure of the yield. After the first run on fresh solutions, it means pouring used back into fresh solution, hence calculating the yield. I'm also unsure when the FD is no longer usable. I've read that it is the FD that goes in Tetenal.

I'm also unsure which times are best. Some say the Fuji times for 3 bath are ok to use for Tetenal but they are quite different to Tetenal's and Jobo's. I've been using Jobo's times for Fuji films as per 7.30m (FD) 4m (CD) 6m (BLX) and this seems ok but not sure if these are best for longevity.

So, what I've now done is I've mixed up 270ml solution but I'm at a bit of a crossroads and am looking for help.

1. What are the best processing times for this amount of working solution. What are the additional plus any additional time for 2nd, 3rd roll.
2. What are the additional times for this quantity of solutions?
3. What yield can I expect? Will I get 3 rolls, 4 rolls, 5 etc.?
4. How will I know when the FD is finished?

As always, many thanks in advance for your help.

[StoneNYC]

I think you're getting way too specific.

Use the times listed for the product you're using.. So use tentnal times...

Using the 500ml solution TWICE with the same times both times with the same times would be fine, probably just use 300ml the first time then the full mix of 500ml the second, that should give the most even.

The only times that matter are the initial developer AFAIK the rest are all "to completion" so using a little longer for the later baths will be just fine to be sure it's to completion.

The kit itself should have given you re-use times. I had some kind of formula but can't remember it now, I did 20 rolls from 1L of chemistry with no exposure issues, I think you could go longer. I think it's like .09 times the dev time for each development after the first if you're using the entire solution each time. But don't quote me on that.

[kazzam]

I think you're getting way too specific....Use the times listed for the product you're using.. So use tentnal times... I don't think I am. The tetenal timed for CD are 6mins. Jobo recommend only 4mins.



Using the 500ml solution TWICE with the same times both times with the same times would be fine, probably just use 300ml the first time then the full mix of 500ml the second, that should give the most even.:confused: I can't get my head round what you're saying here. Sorry.


I did 20 rolls from 1L of chemistry with no exposure issues, I think you could go longer. Are you sure about that? I've never managed 20 rolls and the kit is only good for 12 rolls.

[Corran]

I've found that 6 minutes for the CD is way too long. I kept chasing exposure problems but I was just killing the shadow detail.

I am doing a very similar 2x 500mL mix but I don't hardly bother with increasing time until I've done dozens of sheets or rolls. I haven't had any problem. Do a clip test if you are worried.

[richardman]

Wait, Tentenal recommends 7 mins with the rotary processor and I have been using that for over a year without issue.

What I do is to use 300ml and mix it fresh each time. The 270ml is the MINIMUM amount. You can put more chemical in there. This makes an easy ratio to mix. From memory:
FD 240:60
CD 204:60:36
BLIX 180:60:60
ST 270:30

Timing is 7 mins for all except ST. Look at my photos in the Portrait thread, you may not like them, but the development is pretty good (except one time goofed on the CD)
It's very important to get the ratio of the CD chemicals correct. Use a pipette.

[richardman]

I'm not sure timing is an issue as the Tentenal instructions are quite clear on it?

[Corran]

I don't do rotary so take my opinions with a grain of salt if you are.

[StoneNYC]

I don't think I am. The tetenal timed for CD are 6mins. Jobo recommend only 4mins.


:confused: I can't get my head round what you're saying here. Sorry.

Are you sure about that? I've never managed 20 rolls and the kit is only good for 12 rolls.

Sorry, those times are for hand process, so you should reduce time by 10% or 15% because of rotation as far as I understand it. So... 6minutes -15%=5minutes10seconds so start with 5 minutes and adjust if needed.

There's only on way to know and that's to try and learn from both success and failure... Color negative film really isn't as finicky so I wouldn't worry as much as you are, try one roll that you don't care about and see.

I was saying the difference from one run to the second run as far as "used up" chemicals is so small that simply using 300ml for the first run, and then Re-using the 300ml for the second run PLUS adding the remaining 200ml as a sort of "replenisher" would be sufficient to see no difference in image quality and no change in development times.

The kit is good for 12 rolls in a perfect world, color developer can be re-used several times with extended development times with decent results until exhaustion, you really can't be sure but I stopped at 20 as it seemed a safe place to stop, probably could have gone to 30 without an issue but I was being cautious.

Did that make sense now?

[richardman]

Tentenal PUBLISHES times for Rotary processing on their instructions. We need to hear from the OP to see why he doesn't follow them.

And oh StoneNYC, the Tentenal E-6 instructions does NOT shorten times for rotary processing!

[StoneNYC]

Tentenal PUBLISHES times for Rotary processing on their instructions. We need to hear from the OP to see why he doesn't follow them.

And oh StoneNYC, the Tentenal E-6 instructions does NOT shorten times for rotary processing!

Oh their times are already for rotary and not inversion by hand? Sorry I didn't know that. My apologies.

[kazzam]

Tentenal PUBLISHES times for Rotary processing on their instructions. We need to hear from the OP to see why he doesn't follow them.

Tetenal's state 6m15 for the FD and I've followed this before but had slightly under exposed slides with Fuji chromes. They state 6min for CD increasing to 8mins for the last two rolls of 6 roll batch. After searching a fair bit I found the following Jobo times for tetenal and these are the ones I have been using.
First two rolls
FD - 6min 30 (7min 30 for Fuji) (7m45 for 3&4), (8m for 5&6)
CD - 4 mins (it is too harsh at greater times) (5m for 3&4), (6m for 5&6)
BLX - 6 mins (7m for 3&4), (6m for 5&6)

I'm not sure how old these times are or whether they were for older types of Tetenal as Jobo's links have disappeared.

I process one roll at a time using these times above. I've read that rolls should be processed two at a time as the the rotary action increases oxidisation in the solutions. It doesn't say this in Tetenal's instruction leaflet.

Mixing 500ml solutions but only using 300ml and pouring back and forth seems alien to me. So, I've mixed 300ml and was hoping someone might be using this volume in a Jobo and has times and yields to go by. I've done 4 rolls today using only the 300ml solutions and it seems ok but slightly dark slides. This may be my camera exposure as I'm using expired Velvia (2006) and a roll of Provia (2012) for testing.

Hope that makes sense.

[richardman]

YES, that's what I do: mix 300ml at a time. The Tentenal time of 7min/7/7 for rotary is on the instruction book that comes with the chemical. Please read it carefully.

[richardman]

Oh their times are already for rotary and not inversion by hand? Sorry I didn't know that. My apologies.

Stone, there are times for both. Clearly written in the instruction book.

[StoneNYC]

Stone, there are times for both. Clearly written in the instruction book.

Understood, I use a different kit so I didn't know.

[kazzam]

YES, that's what I do: mix 300ml at a time. The Tentenal time of 7min/7/7 for rotary is on the instruction book that comes with the chemical. Please read it carefully. I have many times. Definitely nowhere does it say 7/7/7 Where are you based? I'm in the UK.

Rotary Discard times - 6.15/6/6

[kazzam]

Here's a copy of the instructions

120146

[richardman]

I just scanned that too :-) First of all, look at the right hand page, the first paragraph. Second, I always use 7/7/7 on the CPE2 even if I am only developing 2 sheets.

You said your film is old, that may be the problem.

[StoneNYC]

I just scanned that too :-) First of all, look at the right hand page, the first paragraph. Second, I always use 7/7/7 on the CPE2 even if I am only developing 2 sheets.

You said your film is old, that may be the problem.

Weird, why would rotary processing be LONGER than hand processing? That's contrary to every other process I've done. Teach me, I'm not saying it's wrong, saying I'm confused...

[richardman]

I don't know. I just follow the manufacturer's instructions. You can read it from Kazzam's scan above. I use the middle column the left hand page and then follow the advice on the first paragraph on the right hand page.

[kazzam]

I just scanned that too :-) First of all, look at the right hand page, the first paragraph. Second, I always use 7/7/7 on the CPE2 even if I am only developing 2 sheets.

You said your film is old, that may be the problem.

It doesn't say 7/7/7. That's only 7 mins for the FD at 39 degrees. No mention at all of CD or BLX there.

Look at the left hand side of the page. It says "First developer times must be adapted to suit the combination of developer machine, film make, speed of rotation...etc." Therefore Jobo times which state 6.30/4/6 (7.30 FD for fuji chromes.) My film is spot on it's been frozen since and tested thoroughly.

7/7/7 is far too long for emulsions like 100vs. Ive tested this pretty well. Results in over exposed slides, and the CD of 7 minutes renders shadows red. I've ran these 7/7/7 times for fresh Velvia Slightly under exposed but shadows red. This indicates that 7 mins CD is too long.

[kazzam]

Yes, but these are times for 500ml & 1000ml solution. I am looking for times and yields for 300ml solution mixed. There will be a difference in a Rotary processor for this quantity of mixed stock. You can't use 500ml in a 1520 tank. I've done this before and the heat and rotation pops the lid off with all the chemicals pouring into the bath.

[StoneNYC]

It doesn't say 7/7/7. That's only 7 mins for the FD at 39 degrees. No mention at all of CD or BLX there.

Look at the left hand side of the page. It says "First developer times must be adapted to suit the combination of developer machine, film make, speed of rotation...etc." Therefore Jobo times which state 6.30/4/6 (7.30 FD for fuji chromes.) My film is spot on it's been frozen since and tested thoroughly.

7/7/7 is far too long for emulsions like 100vs. Ive tested this pretty well. Results in over exposed slides, and the CD of 7 minutes renders shadows red. I've ran these 7/7/7 times for fresh Velvia Slightly under exposed but shadows red. This indicates that 7 mins CD is too long.

Again, the first developer is the one that time matters... AFAIK all other baths are "to completion" so whether you leave the film in the blix for 6 or 7 or 10 minutes it doesn't matter... And I'm pretty sure that's true for the color bath as well... Wish Ron Mowrey were on this forum to ask, he would know for sure.

[richardman]

What can I say, I have been using this for 1+ year. I'm not the one with the problem. Sorry I bothered.

[kazzam]

What can I say, I have been using this for 1+ year. I'm not the one with the problem. Sorry I bothered.I'm sorry you feel that way and thanks for your help. I've been developing slides for over 20 years but due to 6 bath and Fuji kits not being available, I am having to reacquaint myself with tetenal again. I have since found several threads. Recipes have changed and there's much agreement that Tetenal's processing times conflict with themselves due to them being translated (poorly) from German. Once agin. Thank you for your help.

[kazzam]

Again, the first developer is the one that time matters... AFAIK all other baths are "to completion" so whether you leave the film in the blix for 6 or 7 or 10 minutes it doesn't matter... And I'm pretty sure that's true for the color bath as well... Wish Ron Mowrey were on this forum to ask, he would know for sure. Yes, the FD is the important step. There's a problem with Blix in that it is less stable and retains silver. Because all the silver is not bleached out, it isn't solved by leaving it the Blix for extended periods and it affects resolution/sharpness.

[koh303]

Tetenal's state 6m15 for the FD and I've followed this before but had slightly under exposed slides with Fuji chromes.
This may be due to your exposure. The current published times are iron clad, and correct.


I'm not sure how old these times are or whether they were for older types of Tetenal as Jobo's links have disappeared.
All Jobo technical data is available on the Jobo USA website, in the resources section.


I process one roll at a time using these times above. I've read that rolls should be processed two at a time as the the rotary action increases oxidisation in the solutions. It doesn't say this in Tetenal's instruction leaflet.
Where did you read that (clearly, not in the tetenal booklet)?


Mixing 500ml solutions but only using 300ml and pouring back and forth seems alien to me. So, I've mixed 300ml and was hoping someone might be using this volume in a Jobo and has times and yields to go by. I've done 4 rolls today using only the 300ml solutions and it seems ok but slightly dark slides. This may be my camera exposure as I'm using expired Velvia (2006) and a roll of Provia (2012) for testing.

Hope that makes sense.

Using 10 year old slide film that was not a bench mark when it was fresh is not the ideal way to test a whole new and alien processing scheme.
Over all the system is designed to be used as one shot, and thus max capacity is achieved when max rolls per 1L are used at once. I am not entierly sure where the difficulty is, but you can mix any amount you want. The 1520 requires 240ml, and to make life easier we can call it 250. Mixing 250ml, and using it for 2 rolls, or 2 runs of 2 rolls is easy as cake. And, you can mix a whole 1 Liter, then only use the amount needed for each run. Worrying about getting the max capacity out of the chemistry while running such small runs often times becomes more wasteful the using as simply directed by the manufacturers instructions, which in this case, both Tetenal and Jobo, are fairly simple and easy to follow.


To summarize - the max capacity of the system is close to 100ml per roll (or perhaps slightly less when counting 12 rolls per 1L). If using one shot, you need 120ml per roll, not a huge loss, especially if you are running such small batches.

[Corran]

Tetenal's state 6m15 for the FD and I've followed this before but had slightly under exposed slides with Fuji chromes.
This may be due to your exposure. The current published times are iron clad, and correct.

Tetenal clearly states that Fuji chromes take more development (7:15 or something IIRC) so you are incorrect!


Again, the first developer is the one that time matters... AFAIK all other baths are "to completion" so whether you leave the film in the blix for 6 or 7 or 10 minutes it doesn't matter... And I'm pretty sure that's true for the color bath as well... Wish Ron Mowrey were on this forum to ask, he would know for sure.

The color developer step has a DEVELOPER step in it so I am fairly certain it isn't just "to completion." At least in my experience over development in the CD will result in denser negatives. Makes sense doesn't it? Also, why even publish a specific time then, rather than "7 or more minutes" or something to that effect.

[StoneNYC]

This may be due to your exposure. The current published times are iron clad, and correct.


All Jobo technical data is available on the Jobo USA website, in the resources section.


Where did you read that (clearly, not in the tetenal booklet)?



Using 10 year old slide film that was not a bench mark when it was fresh is not the ideal way to test a whole new and alien processing scheme.
Over all the system is designed to be used as one shot, and thus max capacity is achieved when max rolls per 1L are used at once. I am not entierly sure where the difficulty is, but you can mix any amount you want. The 1520 requires 240ml, and to make life easier we can call it 250. Mixing 250ml, and using it for 2 rolls, or 2 runs of 2 rolls is easy as cake. And, you can mix a whole 1 Liter, then only use the amount needed for each run. Worrying about getting the max capacity out of the chemistry while running such small runs often times becomes more wasteful the using as simply directed by the manufacturers instructions, which in this case, both Tetenal and Jobo, are fairly simple and easy to follow.


To summarize - the max capacity of the system is close to 100ml per roll (or perhaps slightly less when counting 12 rolls per 1L). If using one shot, you need 120ml per roll, not a huge loss, especially if you are running such small batches.

Do you know the minimum you need to develop 1 sheet of 8x10? The JOBO 3005 says 270ml minimum but 5 sheets of 8x10 and I wonder if 270ml (usually use 300ml) is enough...?

[koh303]

Do you know the minimum you need to develop 1 sheet of 8x10? The JOBO 3005 says 270ml minimum but 5 sheets of 8x10 and I wonder if 270ml (usually use 300ml) is enough...?

This is ging off topic, though i feel the OP's question has been plentifully answered.

RE 3005 - that number refferres to the min amount of liquid required to wet all 5 sheets in the tank, but does not say anything about the amount of chemicals needed per SQ inch, which will depend on the developer being used.

[StoneNYC]

This is ging off topic, though i feel the OP's question has been plentifully answered.

RE 3005 - that number refferres to the min amount of liquid required to wet all 5 sheets in the tank, but does not say anything about the amount of chemicals needed per SQ inch, which will depend on the developer being used.

Yes, I understand that, and I agree the original posters answers have been basically covered, which is why I felt it was okay to ask, I'm specifically asking about E6 Color developer as well as C-41 I suppose. Is 300ml enough for all 5?

I'm just really not good at understanding the whole surface area to minimum developer amounts calculation.

[richardman]

Stone, I develop up to 6 sheets all the time in the Tetenal E-6 with 300 ml of chemical in 7/7/7. No problem.

[StoneNYC]

Stone, I develop up to 6 sheets all the time in the Tetenal E-6 with 300 ml of chemical in 7/7/7. No problem.

And you re-use that again with extended time? Or one shot? Thanks! (I'm sure that will help the OP also).

[richardman]

One shot so far, but the other thread convinces me to may be I should try to use it at least one more time with 10% time. I have a set of used-once chemical in bottles now, waiting for the next batch. Will report back.

Since it's difficult to connect with my subjects for my Transformations:CosplaytPortrirtures project, I will do at most 2 developments per set. I can't afford to lose the photos...

[dave_whatever]

I use the same times I used from my old Fuji Hunt E6 kit when using the tetenal. CPE2 with a 2509n reel in the single tank. I use 250ml of chemicals and run two lots of film through it.

1st dev 6:30
Colour dev 6:00
Blix 6:00

Add 30seconds to each of the above for putting another batch of film through it. I regularly develop 6 sheets of 5x4 followed by 2 rolls of 120 (equivalent to doing 14 sheets of 5x4) in the same 250ml of chemicals without replenishment and I don,t seem to be exhausting the developer. The stated 270ml clearly has some headroom built into it. Just a shame 270ml is an unfortunately awkward figure for measuring out chems. I know plenty of other users have reported using 250ml without issue.