Shutter Problems [Kodak Ektar 152mm with Graphic Supermatic X Shutter]

[Pali K]

I have a Graphic Supermatic X shutter on my Kodak Ktar lens that was working fine in all settings except B and T. I have done some CLA work on my previous cameras so I figured that I wanted to give the lens a thorough clean to see if it work fix it.

I spent many hours carefully cleaning the movements in the lens, removed all rust and gunk, and even gently increased tension of the springs. I was happy at first because the B and T settings started responding and though were not perfect, were very usable. Things turn for the bad afterwards because I decided to clean the shutter and managed to spill an extra dose of Denatured Alcohol on them and they immediately started sticking. I left the lens under a lamp for several hours to dry up the alcohol and also cleaned off the excess using qtips and the lens does fire now but it sticks every 10th or so release.

I would really appreciate if anyone has any tips/suggestion that I should try to help with the shutter. Do you think the denatured alcohol in the shutter can cause permanent damage?

[BrianShaw]

The shutter is possibly still wet inside. It is likely that it is also still dirty. It is certainly not lubricated.

Denatured alcohol actually has a lot of water in it. Not a good choice for cleaning anything that has not been fully disassembled.

[Pali K]

Thanks Brian - seems like I have lost this shutter. I tried to remedy the situation and opened the shutters to clean and found it impossible to get the shutter back on properly. It doesn't fire at all anymore :(

Do you know if I can use this lens with another shutter? If so, how may I go about acquiring one?

[Andrew]

you could probably find a replacement in a working shutter at a reasonable price because it isn't a high profile lens
also, my guess that it's the same supermatic shutter as the Ektar 127mm and, so long as that checks out, you could get one of those and swap over the front plate so the aperture scale is correct... the 127 is quite common on the usual online places

[Pali K]

you could probably find a replacement in a working shutter at a reasonable price because it isn't a high profile lens
also, my guess that it's the same supermatic shutter as the Ektar 127mm and, so long as that checks out, you could get one of those and swap over the front plate so the aperture scale is correct... the 127 is quite common on the usual online places

Thanks Andrew. I did just this and ordered a working replacement with 100mm Kodak Ektar from ebay for $82. I am also looking for a better overall lens under 400 so please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thanks again.

[Pali K]

Someone is selling a 90mm Schneider Symmar Lens f8 for $200 with Copal 0 shutter. Is this a good lens/deal?

[Andrew]

fingers crossed... hopefully the lens cells will swap ?
not sure if the face plate will exchange and if it won't you'll have to work around the aperture scale being incorrect

"under 400" could be almost anything, what do you want to do with it ?

[Pali K]

Andrew, I am looking for an all around lens but I mostly shoot portraits and basic landscape. Ideally something with F5.6 or faster.

[Andrew]

no easy answer... certainly no one correct answer
you ought to think roughly what focal length you want to use and then look for options around that
if you want FASTER than f5.6 plus cheap you might look at tessar types like xenars, ektars, ilex paragons, others
but the faster lenses are possibly less friendly for landscapes

[Andrew]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

[Pali K]

I appreciate all this help. Do you think the 90mm Schneider Symmar F8 with Copal 0 shutter for $200 is a good landscape lens. I am not sure but it seems that 200 may not be good value because of F8.

For portrait work I would like something around 210 mm because it is close to 120 mm on medium format that I like best.

[mdarnton]

90mm Schneider Symmar F8 does not compute. I don't think such a lens exists. I don't think that anyone here will recommend that you buy a lens that doesn't exist. :-)

[Pali K]

Very interesting. It's this one:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/pho/4561167876.html

[BrianShaw]

Thanks Brian - seems like I have lost this shutter. I tried to remedy the situation and opened the shutters to clean and found it impossible to get the shutter back on properly. It doesn't fire at all anymore :(

Do you know if I can use this lens with another shutter? If so, how may I go about acquiring one?

Have you considered another alternative - sending this Graphic Supermatic shutter to a repair shop, to someone with a bit more professional experience in that kind of work?

[Pali K]

Brian,

I got a quote and they told me that it would be 80 minimum and the T setting will most likely not work again. I figured a working shutter for approximately the same cost is a better way to go.

I am looking for additional lenses because I don't this this will do everything I want since the shutter maxes at 200.

[mdarnton]

Super Angulon, not Symmar. You can see it written on the lens in the second photo. That's a wide angle for 4x5. It's a good lens, and a good price if it's $200, normal price at $300, which is what the ad says, if you need a wide angle.

That's in the neighborhood of the equivalent of a 25mm lens for 35mm, depending on how you calculate it. Diagonally (150/42) it's a 24, or based on the longest side (121/36), it's 27mm.


Very interesting. It's this one:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/pho/4561167876.html

[Andrew]

well, the seller made a typo... it's a super angulon. That's a perfectly good 90mm! You'll find a lot of them are f8 and it isn't a problem for landscape. Not sure that the F5.6 wide angles are any sharper that the f8's but they will be a lot heavier!
if you want something around 210 that's faster than 5.6 for portraits you might like a heliar at f4.5? or a tessar type like the ilex paragon anastigmats? Not as common as an f5.6 plasma like a symmar sironar nikkor etc which are both common and cheap. Look for something in a functioning copal shutter because you can still get them repaired :-)

[BrianShaw]

Brian,

I got a quote and they told me that it would be 80 minimum and the T setting will most likely not work again. I figured a working shutter for approximately the same cost is a better way to go.

I am looking for additional lenses because I don't this this will do everything I want since the shutter maxes at 200.

80 bucks for an overhaul is a great price. What you get for that is (should be) professional servicing that will give you years of useful life and the security that the shutter will work when you want it to. If he can't assure full functionality, though, I'd be suspicious that he isn't the right person to do the job. Unless you broke something while fiddling with the shutter or lost springs there should be no reason a pro repair person would give an estimate with that kind of caveat.

Replacing the shutter will get you not only another chore that may not be as easy as it sounds, but the insecurity of not knowing when that "new" shutter will fail and need an overhaul. It is likely a false economy.

First, though, you may want to really understand what lens you want and need. Comparing the 152 to a 90 is apples and oranges.

200 as a fastest top speed is not a handicap. I assure you. The faster speeds often aren't all that accurate anyway and run slow.

Good luck to you in whatever decision you make.

[Pali K]

This is all very helpful. Thank you everyone!

FYI, I am currently bidding on two different 210/F5.6 w/ Copal shutter combinations per recommendations from another post here. I also bought a Kodak Ektar 100mm with Supermatic Flash shutter (vs Supermatic X that I have) in hope to reuse my 152 lens elements. The new lens is scratched but the seller claims that all speeds are working properly so fingers crossed that it will fit my lenses. The total for this Supermatic was $82 and I know that I will have better luck with this than to have my broken shutter fixed.

Lesson learned in all this is that I am getting the lenses that I need for my style but I should never touch shutters again in the future and leave the job to professionals :)

[premortho]

I have seen some of these lenses mounted in Wollensak Rapax shutters. The Rapax has proved to be (to me, at least) the most reliable clockwork shutter ever made. Less fussy than the Compur, and tougher than the Super-matic.
Thanks Brian - seems like I have lost this shutter. I tried to remedy the situation and opened the shutters to clean and found it impossible to get the shutter back on properly. It doesn't fire at all anymore :(

Do you know if I can use this lens with another shutter? If so, how may I go about acquiring one?

[Pali K]

Thanks premortho! I ordered a replacement shutter that will be coming soon. Keeping my fingers crossed that it will fit my lenses. Also to keep this thread updated, I ordered at Caltar - S II 210mm f/5.6 with COPAL 1 as well.

[Pali K]

Oh boy - this story keeps getting more interesting. So I bought a Kodak Ektar 101mm F4.5 to use as a replacement shutter and I just received it today. First thing I noticed was that it was tiny.. very tiny... Then some googling turned up that this is not a 4x5 lens at all!

So if anyone wants this guy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271568897428?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT), please let me know and I'll be happy to cut my losses :)

[Dan Fromm]

Brian,

I got a quote and they told me that it would be 80 minimum and the T setting will most likely not work again. I figured a working shutter for approximately the same cost is a better way to go.

I am looking for additional lenses because I don't this this will do everything I want since the shutter maxes at 200.

You don't need "T" because the shutter has a blade arrestor ("press focus").

There's no guarantee that your lens' cells will be direct fits in any Rapax/Graphex shutter. A Graphex shutter is a Rapax in Graflex Inc. livery. When your lens was made each shutter manufacturer in Rochester (EKCo, Ilex, Wollensak) (a) had its own standards and (b) made shutters to the buyer's specifications.

Any aged shutter will need a CLA. That's a law of nature, unfortunately.

[joselsgil]

Oh boy - this story keeps getting more interesting. So I bought a Kodak Ektar 101mm F4.5 to use as a replacement shutter and I just received it today. First thing I noticed was that it was tiny.. very tiny... Then some googling turned up that this is not a 4x5 lens at all!

So if anyone wants this guy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271568897428?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT), please let me know and I'll be happy to cut my losses :)

The Ektar 101mm lens is for the 2x3 format cameras, and will not cover a 4x5. If you want to reuse your 152mm lens cells, you will need a shutter that is setup with the proper spacing for those cells.

I would just send your shutter for a CLA and it should be good for many more years of service.

[premortho]

The Ektar 101mm lens is for the 2x3 format cameras, and will not cover a 4x5. If you want to reuse your 152mm lens cells, you will need a shutter that is setup with the proper spacing for those cells.

I would just send your shutter for a CLA and it should be good for many more years of service.
I think this is right on information. Some of these shutters are 100 years old, many are 50 years old. The odds of getting a perfectly performing shutter get longer every year. So, if the glass is good, a CLA by someone who knows what he is doing is a good idea. The Supermatic is a great shutter when it's hitting on all eight. But like a car, it needs maintainence once in a while.

[premortho]

I think this is right on information. Some of these shutters are 100 years old, many are 50 years old. The odds of getting a perfectly performing shutter get longer every year. So, if the glass is good, a CLA by someone who knows what he is doing is a good idea. The Supermatic is a great shutter when it's hitting on all eight. But like a car, it needs maintainence once in a while.
I would also be looking for the instructions that Kodak put out on operating this shutter. It is not really intuitive, like a Kodak Ball Bearing Shutter.

[Pali K]

I think this is right on information. Some of these shutters are 100 years old, many are 50 years old. The odds of getting a perfectly performing shutter get longer every year. So, if the glass is good, a CLA by someone who knows what he is doing is a good idea. The Supermatic is a great shutter when it's hitting on all eight. But like a car, it needs maintainence once in a while.

Thank you Premortho! I may at some point send this for a proper CLA. For the short term, I am investing in lenses that I really want and are ideal for my type of photography. I have bought a 210 and am now looking to get a nice 90mm lens also. I think the two lenses will cover 90% of my needs and I may either send this for CLA or invest in a newer 150 Fujinon F5.6 down the road.

[Jim Noel]

Someone is selling a 90mm Schneider Symmar Lens f8 for $200 with Copal 0 shutter. Is this a good lens/deal?

Are you sure it is a 90mm Symmar? That design in that focal length would not cover 4x5.

[Pali K]

Are you sure it is a 90mm Symmar? That design in that focal length would not cover 4x5.
Jim, the seller made an error in the listing. It was a super angulon instead.