Direct to Black and White

[Peter Hruby]

Hi all,

I just wanna ask if does exists similar B&W Paper as Ilfochrome, you can expose it directly?

Thank for the answers

[Ralph Barker]

B&W enlarging papers, like Ilfochrome, are exposed in an enlarger. The only "direct" photo process, if I understand your question correctly, is Polaroid, which is available in sizes up to 8x10.

[Marie Dohoney]

I use Ilford Multigrade IV RC DELUXE in film holders for homemade pinhole cameras. Is that what you mean? One day I'll learn to use and print real film!

[Peter Hruby]

Well, I would be more specific. I am right now in project to take pictures directly on photopaper. So, for Ilfochrome Classic paper which is color paper, the technique is calles "Direct-to-CIBA" printing (sometime called "Direct positive printing").

You are not going to use darkroom enlarger and do pictures from negastive. You process photopaper directly in processor to obtain correct picture (not reversed).

I love Black and white photography, it gives more suspense and it has its own charming, so I am looking for B&W photopaper which can be exposed directly.

Actually If you also know what is the speed of paper and its temperature for expose, I would appreciate it.

I hope I am more specific.

[JanE]

Peter, take a look at this Photonet thread: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004uhM (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004uhM)

The speed for Ilfochrome in camera filtered heavy about 80ccY+60ccR is about 5 EV.
The result is rather good for the low contrast paper (again, Peter!) and the contrast seems
similar to medium contrast slide film. You'll get a mirrorred image, but as it is very sharp, you'll get easy a 1 gb scan from it. From that you can make a nice 8x10 feet lightjet print.

Jan, Finland.

[David A. Goldfarb]

It would involve some experimentation, but I guess you could try reversal processing of conventional B&W paper. This would involve developing the image normally, bleaching, an exposure to light or a chemical reversal, redeveloping, and then fixing and washing normally.

Otherwise, your best bet would be Polaroid.

[JanE]

Sorry Peter, I just missed the point. AFAIK there's no direct positive BW paper on the market, but there exists BW reversal developing kits. In theory these would behave as good for paper as they do for film. I have one in front of me ; Direct positive film developing outfit, Kodak TMAX 100, CAT number 8121188.

[Ralph Barker]

Yes, sorry, Peter. I was obviously suffering from a insufficiency of imagination when I responded earlier. As David and Jan point out, Kodak makes a reversal kit for B&W film, but it's fairly expensive ($36.50). You'd need to experiment to see how it would work with photographic paper (different dillutions, perhaps?).

[Peter Hruby]

Jan, you are absolutely right, cibachrome is very slow, as far as I know it is little bit less than 5EV, around 2-3 EV, picture is reversed, but that what picture makes very unique. Color balancing and temperature balancing is very complicated, I already have a tri color meter and whole color balancing and color compensating filter kit (all stuff is around 600 USD and it's used) but that what unique is about.

To have the experience of making one of a kind picture that what's all about. On top of that if I determine correct filtering, speed will go even more down, it can go up to 0.5 - 1 EV which you can imagine what would be the exposure time. But this supposed to be in my other forum question.

Still, I look forward from other enthusiasts about pros and cons of B&W reversal kit. I do not know anything about it, if somebody tried this, I would appreciate any technique or prefference.

Thank you everybody so far for you contributions.

[bob carnie]

Peter
I have experienced photographers putting cibachrome paper into their large format cameras and sending it to us for processing, the print is then colourcorrected with gels at the exposing film time, works pretty , well , I believe the iso is extremely slow therefore some experimentation at your end is required

[bob carnie]

Peter
another method that I have experienced is to shoot scala , try to keep the lighting ratio on the flat side and use drop process to flatten the scala trans, then print with ciba chrome paper, which has three contrasts. The resulting prints are black and white with a very high ciba gloss, as well the printer can slightly adjust the colour filtration to produce any myrid of colour tones.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Peter.

Just for technical and historical information, I think that there was, in the Kodak catalogue, a B&W reversal paper named Kodaprove, used to make reading proofs from colour slides in the good old days of analog printing and analog graphic arts techniques. 25 years ago I asked one of the parisian photo dealers about this paper, and he was definitely negative ;-) about the interest of this paper for doing decent prints except for pre-print proofs. quoting from memory : 'Oh là là, vous voudriez utiliser ce papier Kodaprove, non vraiment ce n'est pas chouette je vous déconseille'. May be the dealer was reluctant to order 25 sheets of Kodaprove for a student who wanted only to experiment ;-);-)

So I never even touched Kodaprove paper, to my geat regret it is only a legend of the past ;-);-)

There was another special Kodak paper not to be confused with Kodaprove, named : Panalure. This was a panchromatic paper used for printing colour negatives on a B&W support by conventional methods. I used this paper as a student in pratical optical courses on lasers and interferences, this paper was actualy a cheap and easy recording medium for red laser light ; @632 nm (He-Ne), no conventional B&W paper exhibits any tiny bit of sensitivity, but Panalure did.

As far the reversal process is concerned. The Kodak kit for T-max is special in a sense that it does not need re-exposure like in the conventional B&W reversal process.
Tetenal used to supply a B&W reversal kit but the bleaching bath was based on concentrated potassium bichromate (in sulphuric acid solution) ; this chemical is definitely banned by health & safety regulations. A substitute exists under the form of potassium permanganate (also in diluted sulphuric acid solution). Foma (in the Czech Republic) does supply a ready-to-use permanganate-based reversal kit for their Foma 100R B&W reversal film (those products are easy to find from German Foto dealers ), unfortunately for MF/LF aficionados it is available in 135 format only. The recipe for reversal with re-exposure is also explained on the Ilford and Maco web sites ; I'm quite sure that mailing to Ilford about this you would get an answer on how to adapt the permanganate-based reversal process for film to to silver halide papers.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think David Wood may have mentioned somewhere that he was working on a B&W reversal print process for printing from B&W dr5 transparencies, but I'm not sure he's planning to share the details.

[Peter Hruby]

Dear Bob,

you lost me in a first sentence of your second message.

Shoot scala, what it means? Do you know any website I can look at the technique you are describing?

Keeping lightning ratio on flat size ... hmm

flatten the scala trans... another hmm

Look kinda interesting technique I would like to know more aboput it...



Dear Emanuel,

what a great information, sometimes I think the world is going not by quality but by the price and few of us are loosing opportunity to go for perfection.

Originaly I am from Slovakia, I live in Canada and FOMA? I grew up with Foma. Futrthermore, I will try to contact Ilford to get som information about it and the result will be posted here.



David,

do you have David Wood e-mail? It might be interesting to contact him directly or ask him to contribute little bit about it.

Fellas, Thanks for responses, Still, anything new about BW direct to print would be appreciated by everybody here.

[Ralph Barker]

Peter - you can contact David Wood through http://www.dr5.com/ (http://www.dr5.com/)

[Peter Hruby]

Bob and Ralph,

especially Ralph, by giving me dr5 website, I have had a chance to review dr5 process.

Doeas anybody know the full dr5 process?
Bob, it is a good alternative to shoot with scala and print it on ilfochrome, but it requires a film which I am trying to avoid for this project. But definitely it was worth to know this option too.

Thanks. Still if anybody have any experience he would like to share, here is your chance...

[bob carnie]

Hi Peter
Scala is an agfa direct positive film, Toronto Image Works can help you with the technique I suggested, if you are in the States I believe Duggal has a Scala Processor.

For Cibachrome if the trans has a high contrast or high lighting ratio or large difference in transmission between black and white in the scene, there is a possibility in what I call cross curve where the highlights take on one colour ie magenta and the shawdows take on the complimentary colour green , this can show up as red / cyan yellow / blue.

This cross curve was a problem for technicians years ago making good quality internegatives from slides for RA4 printing, there were three main methods of correcting this Density Difference Method, Curve plotting method, and a computer software program that would help guide the technician. At the end we would expose a transparancy that had a graduated grey background onto the interneg material , the transparancy was lit white to black in a continuous bandWhen printed to grey the cross curve would be evident and we would eyeball the final correction and start producing interngs. ( I know this is too much detail info , that should go in one ear and out the other)

If your original Scala transparancie is flat or low lighting ratio 1:1 1:2 the cross curve effect is less.

This inbalance has always been present and is extremely hard to get rid of. therefore the low contrast original is helpful.

Would be interested to see with images how you make out with your endevours

good luck

[Ralph Barker]

Peter, dr5 is a proprietary process that David Wood developed on his own to be able to produce positive B&W transparencies directly from various standard B&W films. As such, only David knows the details, and processing is only available through the dr5 lab, as far as I know. I have done some work with dr5, and personally find it more pleasing than Scala - better tonality and wider range. Plus, you have the option of sepia/gold tone or neutral, depending on which of the two dr5 processes you select. I have not, however, had any Ilfochrome prints made from dr5 transparencies, so I'm not sure whether Ilfochrome is able to capture all of the nuance present in the film, nor whether such prints suffer from the same cross-contrast problem Bob describes.

David strikes me as having an inquisitive mind, so he might well be interested in working with you on your direct-print project for the B&W side. I'd suggest sending him an e-mail, and see what thoughts he might offer.