Budget $1500.00, KEH [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

David R Munson

31-Jul-2014, 02:14

You may want to be a bit less impossibly vague. What do you like to shoot? Do you shoot wide? Normal? Long? Also, I won't be a dick and tell you to use the search function, because the search function doesn't work so well. But do try digging through the archives, read up a bit, etc. Google custom search of the forum URL also helps a lot.

The problem with what you've asked is that we don't really have anything to go on because we don't really know anything about you, and it's a very personal choice. My suggestion is to do research - dive into it headlong and really immerse yourself. You can answer your question better than we can.

Andrew Plume

31-Jul-2014, 03:19

you should also firm up on what size format you're interested in................your budget can buy a lot of gear

this can potentially be really complex and they're a lot of pitfalls, it's way different to say, 35mm

andrew

Peter Lewin

31-Jul-2014, 04:29

I know you stated that you wanted to buy a camera and a lens. But what are you going to do with the exposed negatives? Should your budget also include either an enlarger or a scanner and printer?

Jim Jones

31-Jul-2014, 05:52

What do I buy? The last lens purchased was an Ektar from the 1940s for 8x10 or smaller view cameras. The last camera (except for impractical relics) was a baby Speed Graphic. The latter might be interesting for someone experimenting with smaller tintypes if they could only find plate holders for it. However, what I buy is not useful information for anyone else. There are many people on this forum who have valuable information on large format photography and alternate processes, and are willing to share it with others who who seek specific information. After 60+ years of dabbling in photography, I still learn much from this and other forums. Also, google is the researcher's best friend. I use it daily. The right books are another great source of information, and often more convenient than the internet. As for KEH, I've bought only trifles from them. Most customers seem satisfied and even enthusiastic about them.

John Kasaian

31-Jul-2014, 06:32

Also, where are you going to be shooting? Outside? In a studio? Back packing? Will you require lighting or rely on natural light?
I'm going to take a chance and presume you just want something to get started with, that you haven't committed to a particular subject or specialty.
OK.
For used gear:
Calumet monorails start at around $150-$200 incl. a hard case
Full size Tilt-all Tripod. around $100
210mm lens from any of the big makes(Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon) $200
Yellow, Yellow-Green, maybe a Red for filters if you'll be shooting B&W, or similar assortment for color, around $60
Fuji loupe, $40 (I'm guessing)
Assorted cable releases $10 probably less.
Dark Cloth $10 for materials to make your own, OR someone posted that Target has black out curtains on sale at a similar price, OR a black t-shirt you may already own.
$620 for a good kit you can sell if you decide LF's not for you, or build on when your subject matter is more focused.

I don't think Keh sells dark room stuff anymore (I could be wrong) so check your local Craig's list for used:
Basic Omega or Beseler 4x5 enlarger $150 (but sometimes free for the taking)
Schneider Companon, Rodenstock or Nikor enlarging lens $150
Trays, maybe $10
Bestwell focuser $10
Ganz Speed-Ez-L(?) $10
Gralab timer $40
Safelight $10
Graduate cylinder $5
Swizzle sticks for mixing chemicals, gratis if you ask the bar tender nicely at a Tiki bar---Asian mixed drinks in tall glasses require longer swizzle sticks that work better. Don't ask at Martini bars.
Containers---free, just recycle your old brown plastic Isopropyl and Hydrogen peroxide bottles, or ask you pharmacist.
Some clothes line and clothes pins, new at todays prices $10 (ouch!)
Blotter book, new, $20(ouch again!)
So add $405.00 tops for a basic B&W wet dark room, but usually all this stuff will be included in with the modest price of the enlarger so likely more like $150-200 :)

DannL

31-Jul-2014, 06:35

Looking for a LF, and a lens. What do you buy?

Just a suggestion . . . Go to eBay into the film camera section and filter for just Large Format cameras and gear. Whenever you run across a camera type that interests you, Google it for it's specifications and operator reviews. Then you can go to the photo posting sites like Flickr, Photosig, Photo.net, etc and filter for images that where made using that camera and whatever lens the operator chose to use. Eventually you will find yourself going down a certain path because of the knowledge you have accumulated. Have fun.

I bought my first view camera through eBay, about 9 years ago. That was a complete outfit for about $120 as I recall. I bought my last view camera through eBay several months ago. $99 w/free shipping included. You can't beat the prices. But it does help to know what you're getting into beforehand. You came to the right place for asking questions about cameras.

Dan Fromm

31-Jul-2014, 06:45

Don't buy a camera or a lens. Buy a book and read it so you'll understand what you're getting into and what your options are. People here often recommend Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera, Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique, and Ansel Adams' Camera and Lens. All can be found at reasonable prices through, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ...

Drew Bedo

31-Jul-2014, 06:47

Compact: Welcome to the LF World.

Lots of good advice here. I agree with the recommendation to read first.

I started out with a really minimal kit built around a very beat-up Speed Graphic and some lens. The other bits were equally low-end and as-found. I used X-ay film befor it was trendy because I worked in a hospital and developed a few sheets each week in the X-Ray darkroom.

Basically, my advice is: First read some . . .there are good books out ther and there is a recent thread here on this topic. Then get into some gear low and simple. Use this shooting kit a while, and move up to more sophisticated equipment and techniques as you develop as a photographer.

Let us know what you do . . .and ask any question you want.

Tim Meisburger

31-Jul-2014, 07:08

Get the Ikeda Anba ($500) or cherry Wista ($700), then the Ilex 90mm ($150), and a relatively late 135mm or 150mm ($200) and similar 210mm ($250). That leaves $200 for six holders, a pair of reading glasses and a yard sale tripod. With that kit you can shoot anything.

DrTang

31-Jul-2014, 07:51

wow - their new site update sucks

goamules

31-Jul-2014, 07:57

Looking for a LF, and a lens. What do you buy?

I'd get something medium sized. And not too wide a lens.

There, IF you come back and explain a little what YOU are wanting to do, I'll give you more. Otherwise, you should just do some research yourself.

I can't believe people would actually spend time writing long replies to such a random question....ooops...I'm about to.....Out.

Joseph Dickerson

31-Jul-2014, 15:46

wow - their new site update sucks

I emailed them with that very same thought. Found out that at the very bottom of the home page you can choose "Classic KEH". Just like old times!

JD

Alan Gales

31-Jul-2014, 16:33

Looking for a LF, and a lens. What do you buy?

Start here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Welcome to the forum!

analoguey

31-Jul-2014, 17:10

wow - their new site update sucks

Much easier to navigate, actually - there arent a million billion options/categories to confuse and be miscategorised under, I do miss a few of the older categories though.

Drew Bedo

31-Jul-2014, 17:12

Why doesn't IKEA, the DIY furniture seller, make a Field Camera kit? Could be a Kickstarter project!

Liquid Artist

1-Aug-2014, 01:29

Compact Diss

1-Aug-2014, 16:15

Thanks so much for the informative answers and insight. So I am looking to work with a LF camera, producing prints and eventually tintypes. Probably concentrate on portraits, but would also like to shoot outdoor city shots. Buildings, architecture, and just document the world I live in. I am active photographer right now who does street photography in. Boston, not a great street shooter, but it's more about documenting life for me. If you want the link you can PM me, don't want to make is thread an advertisement for my site. Right now I am not making money, I have in interest in working with LF to turn it into a tintype business. I am interested in the process, developing prints at home, really making it about art, rather than the digital world I am stuck in right now.

Liquid Artist

1-Aug-2014, 18:07

I honestly just jumped right into it knowing that I'd love it without really doing any research.
However I knew who I was buying the camera from locally, and he would have left me exchange it for anything else he had.

Since then I've learned what I can use, bought 2 more cameras, 6 lenses, 20 film holders and 3 flash setups. 1/2 of it through the same person. I use them all, and don't regret anything other than not doing it sooner.

As a result, I don't think anything you buy will go to waste as long as you really are ready for the jump.

I honestly wouldn't spend your entire budget all at once though. Get a camera that'll last you a lifetime, and a lens plus 5+ film holders and some Ilford Hp5 film which will give you lots of push pull leeway.
Then have fun burning off the box.

ImSoNegative

1-Aug-2014, 19:04

John Kasaian

1-Aug-2014, 21:51

+1, Steve simmons book is one of the best out there+1

Alan Gales

1-Aug-2014, 22:01

I also own the Steve Simmons book and highly recommend it. It''s not dry and very easy to understand.

Jim Jones

2-Aug-2014, 04:36

Diss, don't spend too much on your first camera. Your personal experience in using it will be more valuable in forming your preferences than all the advice you'll get on forums. Like many of us, you may eventually own more than one type of LF camera. For many years my favorite LF camera was a Burke & James flatbed, and it still gets used where it serves better than other cameras. Different photographers also prefer different books on LF photography. Leslie Stroebel's book is the first of several I refer to, but is more technical and more expensive than most others. Another valuable, but expensive, book is Way Beyond Monochrome by Lambrecht and Woodhouse. When old cameras suffice for quality photography, older books are also adequate. For those who prefer new equipment, some books like the original Ansel Adams series on LF photography are outdated. If possible, browse photo books in a library or bookstore before buying.

Alan Gales

2-Aug-2014, 11:00

Diss, don't spend too much on your first camera. Your personal experience in using it will be more valuable in forming your preferences than all the advice you'll get on forums.

I agree. There is nothing like hands on experience.

A lot of used gear is so reasonably priced today that a lot of times I buy cameras and/or lenses just to try them out. If they don''t suit me then I just resell them. I may lose a little money for doing this but I just consider what I lose to be a cheap rental fee.

If you and I both used the same camera we may have completely different opinions about it due to our uses or preferences being different.

Drew Bedo

2-Aug-2014, 19:50

I couldn't buy from KEH, or my girlfriend would find the package and discover that they buy old camera gear. That would not be a good thing for me.

So I try watching for gear here or locally, and have the seller say it was a gift.

Reminds me of the old joke: This guy has a nightmare that he has died and his wife sells off all his cameras (or guns) for what he TOLD her he had paid for them.

Compact Diss

3-Aug-2014, 13:47

Again, thanks for all the info. Will be ordering a bunch of books from the library, and if I have to will purchase some. Made a contact in the Boston area who is willing to help, if there is anyone else located in my area please let me know. Maybe we can head out for coffee and talk about LF. I'll take any information. I can get before making purchases.

TXFZ1

3-Aug-2014, 13:52

Lots of great information on the home page, it is one of the best resources.

David

jeroldharter

3-Aug-2014, 14:47

Based on your plans, it sounds like you will be experimenting with various kinds of shooting regardless of what your plans are at the moment. Your first camera won't be your last. It is good to read and do research, but there is no problem with just buying a camera and getting started. I'll bet you can't find one person here who studied to find the perfect first camera and still uses it exclusively. Everyone buys and sells cameras over a period of time. I had at least 8 different field/view cameras and still wondered what might be next. If you don't like the first one, sell it and move on to the next.

Realistically, your first camera should not be esoteric gear and your budget does not allow for exotic gear. A good place to start would be a Toyo AII 4x5 field camera and a modern Schneider/Rodenstock/Fujinon/Nikkor 150mm lens, 5 Fidelity/Lisco film holders, a focusing loupe, dark cloth, and light meter. You could pice that together for less than $1000 I think. Wheel and deal from there.

Compact Diss

4-Aug-2014, 12:44

djdister

4-Aug-2014, 13:10

Thanks so much, ordered Steve Summons and Jacobson's books to start reading. Plenty of options for cameras as well as some internal offers from members here. Just saw this one on Craigslist, looks very clean http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/pho/4596139612.html. Anyway, will read up, and do a lot more research before I make the jump as the developing seems more complicated than the camera buying and use. Again, thanks for all your help.

What they are asking for that Graflex is more in line with a "collector's price" i.e. it is too high. My suggestion is to start with a Speed Graphic rather than a Graflex camera - they are generally going to be less expensive, more available and a bit more modern than the Graflex SLRs.

Alan Gales

4-Aug-2014, 13:15

Read up about camera movements before buying a Super D. If you don't want/need camera movements then take a look at a Crown Graphic for half the price.

Liquid Artist

4-Aug-2014, 15:19

Read up about camera movements before buying a Super D. If you don't want/need camera movements then take a look at a Crown Graphic for half the price.

Good advice,
The reality is I have 2 monorail cameras with full movements, but grab out my old Linhof Standard Press camera with very minimal movements 9 times out of every 10.
I only wished I had more movements 2 or 3 times in the last year, however the shots I got 2 of those times are some of my best. So I don't think the lack of movements crippled me one bit.

BTW, I paid $300 Canadian for my Linhof Press camera, and it cam with an excellent Schneider 135mm lens, and a nice flash. I would rate it 8/10, and original.

Jim Jones

4-Aug-2014, 17:49

The Graflex Super D is more of a specialist's camera than a good learning tool. Over the years I've accumulated and used flatbed and monorail view cameras and press cameras, but never felt the urge to buy or use a Graflex Super D or similar cameras. Start with a basic and versatile camera of the type that seems right for you now. Perhaps it will be all the camera you'll ever need. With experience, you may eventually want something different. If you buy and sell wisely, much of your initial investment can be recouped. Or, like some of us, you may choose to keep cameras that somewhat duplicate the function of others.

Richard Johnson

4-Aug-2014, 18:01

Stay cheap my friend.... don't spend too much on any camera.

Compact Diss

4-Aug-2014, 23:27

Stay cheap my friend.... don't spend too much on any camera.

True, true. I'm listening to what I am reading here.

alavergh

6-Aug-2014, 22:03

Keh is pretty helpful if you can call them and talk to them on the phone, and if you're in the states. I bought a Wisner 4x5 technical field about a year ago on ebay. It's a nice wooden camera that collapses into a box shape. I then called keh to look for a lens or two and asked them for a lensboard to hold the lenses on the camera. Not everybody knows everything there about large format, but the guy that helped me was able to look up info for some of my questions. I also picked up a bag bellows for my camera which helps to use wide angle lenses on my camera. All that, plus a good tripod and head was right around $1500.

Camera, extra bag bellows, two lenses and lens boards, a couple film holders for cheap, I already had a good tripod and head. I already had my enlarger and darkroom stuff.

Richard Johnson

7-Aug-2014, 06:16

You can start with a good sturdy tripod set-up that you can use for your smaller format cameras as well. My tripod cost more than my camera. Nothing will turn you off quicker than a flimsy top-heavy tripod with a head that can't keep position.

Next I'd get an excellent normal lens, like a Schneider 150/5.6 APO Symmar or Rodenstock equivalent - about 10-20 years old in a black Copal shutter. These are sharp, reliable, and trouble-free purchases... plus they don't cost that much, never more than $250-$300. You can use these with any 4x5 you'll get and never make an apology over lens quality.

Be sure to budget for good modern film holders, a good loupe, light meter, whatever else you need to start, including film. Don't go nuts with fancy darkcloths (a black t-shirt will work better for me) and other gadgets.

Then you'll know your camera budget. But even then, you wouldn't be off by getting a $200 monorail to learn on, saving the balance for future adventures. Yes the monorail will be bulkier and heavier but the movements are easy to find and figure out, they set up quickly, and they are sturdy/solid cameras that will withstand fumbles and experiments. Later on you can get the Carbon Fiber wundercamera but you may still keep the old warhorse for nasty conditions, doing wet plates (which can be messy), etc.

Jonathan Barlow

7-Aug-2014, 07:02

Stay cheap my friend.... don't spend too much on any camera.

Is this a variation on the XX "most interesting man in the world" series of commercials?

Jonathan Barlow

7-Aug-2014, 07:09

If you work really hard and you're patient, you can find a clean Deardorff 8x10 (V8) for a grand, a nice 250mm or 300mm lens (Fujinon, Kodak Commercial Ektar, etc.) for $250, four 8x10 film holders for $150, and an older aluminum Gitzo tripod for $100, and you've got yourself a large format setup that you can use for the rest of your life.

Compact Diss

8-Aug-2014, 21:26

Received Steve Simmons book today so I am on my way to learning, then I find this camera on Ebay, http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMBO-SCIIN-4x5-LARGE-FORMAT-VIEW-CAMERA-EXC-ROTATING-BACK-/231301439309?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item35daa3df4d which is featured in the book on pages 16-17. No lens, but this camera looks clean. I'll wait for your thoughts. I will definitely go for a monorail as I need a camera with the flexibility to do different styles of photography. I like the looks of this one, and the price.

Alan Gales

8-Aug-2014, 22:06

The Cambo that you are looking at is a late model friction monorail. It has no geared movements which saves on weight if you choose to take it into the field. It is light in weight for a monorail. The price seems fair and lens boards and bag bellows can be found easily and are not expensive. Cambo made a Cambo to Linhof adapter board so you can use the smaller Linhof Technika style boards. These adapters show up on Ebay occasionally.

A monorail is your most versatile camera and the easiest to learn on. The downside is weight and bulk. Some own both monorails and field cameras for the best of both worlds.

You say that you want the flexibility to do different styles of photography. What are you wanting to shoot?

Tim Meisburger

9-Aug-2014, 00:52

You can shoot anything with that, and its almost free! Really, you could hardly go wrong with that, as if at some point in your future you wanted to add a field camera, you would't feel pressed to sell that to fund it.

Go for it1

Liquid Artist

9-Aug-2014, 08:07

I agree, the price is right and it looks like a perfect starter camera. Go for it

Compact Diss

9-Aug-2014, 22:07

I missed it! Went out tonight, didn't realize it was ending so soon.

Liquid Artist

9-Aug-2014, 23:08

sorry to hear about that CD,

i don't know if you have access to the buy&sell section here yet (30 days membership first) so i sent you a PM with links to 2 members profiles selling beautiful, and nicely priced systems. they are not the cheapest, but are still very affordable and will last you a lifetime.

Compact Diss

12-Aug-2014, 09:56

So here is what I purchased from KEH in Ex+ condition:

CAMBO 4X5 SCX VIEW CAMERA BODY, 210 F6.8 GERONAR MC COPAL BT (42 MT) 5X7 LENS.

What are your thoughts? I think this is a good beginner setup.

Richard Johnson

12-Aug-2014, 10:19

Yes it will be nice and solid. Be sure to have a good tripod.

Compact Diss

12-Aug-2014, 11:36

djdister

12-Aug-2014, 11:39

Wow, what a huge fail on my part. I ordered a 5x7 lens. Was able to cancel it in time before shipping, now I need to find a different lens. I do have a very sturdy tripod, just need to get a lens and all of the other miscellaneous gear.

A 210mm lens is not "5x7" lens, it is actually a very common medium-long lens used on 4x5. Back in the day, any 4x5 user would get a 90mm and a 210mm lens for starters...

Compact Diss

12-Aug-2014, 12:03

What does the 5x7 mean in the description?

Leszek Vogt

12-Aug-2014, 13:03

Normally it means that the camera accepts 5"x7" negatives. If it's a 5x7 lens, it means that it accommodates image circle that's required for a 5x7 camera. However, it's up to you to put the dots together and determine whether the lens coverage only barely covers the 5x7 or whether it covers all the camera adjustments. Much to do with what sorts of needs you'll have.

Les

Alan Gales

12-Aug-2014, 13:03

What does the 5x7 mean in the description?

I don't know what the image circle on the Geronar is but I'm sure it covers 5x7 to some extent. It was designed for 4x5 however.

A 210 lens would be an excellent choice for you to start with. I would look for an f/5.6 example in a Copal shutter. Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fuji, and Caltar are all similar in quality. Let price and condition be your guide as to which to buy. On Ebay expect to pay $150.00 to $200.00 for a nice clean example. The Geronar was considered a "student" lens. It was cheaper in original price, slightly slower, and had a smaller image circle. The plus side to the Geronars is that they are small and lightweight for backpacking. Lately I have seen some Geronars go for less than $100.00 on Ebay.

Ari

12-Aug-2014, 13:27

What does the 5x7 mean in the description?

It means it will cover the 5x7 format.
It also means that on smaller formats, like 4x5, plenty of coverage is assured should you need to use camera movements.

Richard Johnson

12-Aug-2014, 14:57

It means that it will cover the image area of a 5x7 camera. When used on a 4x5 camera it means that you can make generous movements and not run out of image circle. That's a good thing. If your lens did not cover the image area it would vignette at the corners. 210 will feel just a bit longer than a "normal" but it's hardly a telephoto, it's a great general purpose lens and great for still-life and portraits.

Liquid Artist

12-Aug-2014, 16:26

One thing to look at now that you have the camera is the maximum length of the camera with the bellows fully extended. Let's just say that it measures 270mm from the ground glass to the lens board. That would basically mean that the longest lens you can use at infinity is a 270mm. If you want to shoot true macros at 1/1 you will need a 135mm or shorter.

It also works the other way. You may not be able to push the standards (camera ends) together enough to use a 90mm lens without recessing the lens into the camera. You can sometimes fix this issue with a recessed lens board.

Compact Diss

12-Aug-2014, 16:43

I appreciate all of the patience shown by members on this forum, certainly not common among the halls of the internet. Just wish KEH had knowledge of the 5x7 when I stopped the shipment. I appreciate all the insight and will go with the suggestions, right now I am going offline to read the Simmons book, which I should be concentrating on rather than scanning eBay...

Thanks again!

Joe