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stradibarrius
23-Jul-2014, 18:26
Is there a way while processing my 4x5 sheets to that beautiful grain that I can get with my 35mm?

BetterSense
23-Jul-2014, 18:43
Crop

jbenedict
23-Jul-2014, 19:05
This is new territory for me. I usually try to get grain out but to each his own...

I'd push process it. That usually can make a few boulders with smaller format films. The Massive Development Chart has Tri-X 320 exposed at ASA 2500 in stock Xtol for 11:45 @ 68. It lists HP5+ with Xtol stock for 13:00 to get ASA 1600 and 17:30 to get ASA 3200.

Playing around with lith film in different dilutions of Dektol and, since it is ortho, you can really go old school and develop by inspection and stop when it looks grainy enough for you.

I just gotta share this. I was looking to see if there was some guidance on making grainy 4x5 by someone who actually has done it and ran into this:

http://grubbasoftware.com/faq.html

For 50 beans, you can have some software that makes digital images look like black and white film stock. They work a whole bunch of electronic hoodoo on film and put the results into the software. You have your choice of film stock and, if they don't have what you want, they will brew it up for you. The first challenge will be "to locate about five rolls or twenty 4x5 sheets of unexposed film in good condition."- from the FAQ.

Whatda buncha weeners.

Tim Meisburger
23-Jul-2014, 19:19
Crop.

DannL
23-Jul-2014, 21:56
Take a 35mm negative and print it to about 8x10. Copy the print with your 4x5 camera. Now you have a 4x5 negative to use for printing which has all the grain that was found in your 35mm negative.

Dave Grenet
23-Jul-2014, 22:16
The same beautiful grain is already there - you just need to make bigger prints in order to see it. Aside from the obvious (use a fast film with a developer that doesn't incorporate a solvent) you could try lith printing or even reticulation (although that isn't really the same type of 'grain') or enlarge a neutral grey 35mm neg onto a 4x5 sheet of film and sandwich when printing...

Domingo A. Siliceo
23-Jul-2014, 22:33
You can try to develop at higher temperatures.

ic-racer
24-Jul-2014, 03:55
Is there a way while processing my 4x5 sheets to that beautiful grain that I can get with my 35mm?

Lith printing 4x5 can bring out the grain in the paper. Sometimes more prominent than the grain in a 35mm negative enlargement.
The image below is an enlargement of a 4x5 negative, processed with the popular 'lith printing' technique.
118847

Ari
24-Jul-2014, 07:39
HP5 can be surprisingly grainy if overdeveloped.

jp
24-Jul-2014, 08:14
I found efke 50 to be super grainy developed in caffenol-c. That film I don't think is available.

Printing options can be useful too. Ilford art300 has sort of a sandy texture; not grainy but different and interesting. Some handcoating / alt process options add some texture or grittiness too.

Brian C. Miller
24-Jul-2014, 08:37
My avatar is a crop from an 8x10 negative, and the crop is about 1/2 the size of a Minox frame. If you want film grain, then you have to make a significant enlargement to see it. You can use Ilford Delta 3200 in a 6x12 roll film back. The grain is awesome! You can push a grainy film in a "grainy" developer. Perhaps Tri-X or HP-5 in Rodinal would be a solution, here. You could also try Arista Lith (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/2-Film/Black-and-White-Film?mfg[]=5&attr[]=1-4) film, too.

LF doesn't lend itself to grainy photographs very well.

jnantz
24-Jul-2014, 08:53
i am able to get grainy 4x5 sheet film ( tmx, tmy )
what i do is over expose a bit, and over develop a bit and i use caffenol c (and 15cc of stock ansco 130 / L of developer )
i get a nice stain and a nice grain. there are other ways too, but they involve more than 1 negative &c and no cropping needed..

Bill_1856
24-Jul-2014, 09:01
Develop in Pyro.

Gary Samson
24-Jul-2014, 12:23
I think Ilford HP5+ in Rodinal diluted 1:100 is your best bet.

Mark Sawyer
24-Jul-2014, 22:16
Are you familiar with reticulation?

djdister
25-Jul-2014, 10:06
Shoot 120 Tri-X film in a 4x5 roll film back. Crop and enlarge to taste...

jbenedict
25-Jul-2014, 10:15
Are you familiar with reticulation?

That is a different look. Easy to achieve. Wash the film in water about $125F and you have it. Makes the image look like dried out cracked paint. Can be a good effect but it's not "grainy"

desertrat
25-Jul-2014, 10:41
Gadget Gainer's original phenidone/vitamin C - sodium carbonate developer produces the grainiest negatives I've seen with a given film.

Brian C. Miller
25-Jul-2014, 11:00
Here's something to consider:

Using fill-in-the-blank developer and either HP-5, Tri-X, or other "grainy" "fast" film, can you get grain larger than Ilford Delta 3200?

If you can't get larger grain than Delta 3200, then simply run a test with Delta 3200. You can just tape a 5 inch slice from a roll to the inside of the holder, expose it, and then develop it. If you didn't get enough grain with Delta 3200, then you won't do it with anything else, either.

I've seen Delta 3200 in 6x9 format, enlarged to 30x40". (cropped somewhat) I thought that it looked good, but a 12cm-wide segment's grain really depends on the final print size.

StoneNYC
25-Jul-2014, 12:30
Tri-X or HP5+ and Ilfsol 3 with VIGOROUS agitation, "shake it like a Polaroid picture" actually like a spray paint can...

That will do it...

No need to shoot higher EI's or any of that it will change the contrast which isn't the goal.

That's my suggestion.

Peter De Smidt
25-Jul-2014, 14:37
My sarcasm sense is tingling, but, as some have alluded to, HP5+ in Rodinol developed to a fairly high CI should have prominent grain.

jnantz
26-Jul-2014, 14:55
Tri-X or HP5+ and Ilfsol 3 with VIGOROUS agitation, "shake it like a Polaroid picture" actually like a spray paint can...

That will do it...

No need to shoot higher EI's or any of that it will change the contrast which isn't the goal.

That's my suggestion.


how does someone process sheet film by shaking it like a can of paint .. ?
if you rush agitate film in hangers you ruin it with surge marks,
if you do this in a mod45 holder it falls out of the holder
you rush while you shuffle you scratch up the film
taco too, you scratch the film ..

StoneNYC
26-Jul-2014, 15:06
how does someone process sheet film by shaking it like a can of paint .. ?
if you rush agitate film in hangers you ruin it with surge marks,
if you do this in a mod45 holder it falls out of the holder
you rush while you shuffle you scratch up the film
taco too, you scratch the film ..

JOBO 2509n OR better the 3010 tank.

How do you think that Tech Pan is processed, you have to shake it exactly like a paint can, that's how you process it, including 4x5 tech pan...

jnantz
26-Jul-2014, 15:17
JOBO 2509n OR better the 3010 tank.

How do you think that Tech Pan is processed, you have to shake it exactly like a paint can, that's how you process it, including 4x5 tech pan...

that is a good question, cause it isnt how *I* process it .. in 25 years, ive never processed tech pan like that in 35 or 4x5 format .. seems like a good way to ruin film though .... no matter what film, tank or system you use

StoneNYC
26-Jul-2014, 15:46
that is a good question, cause it isnt how *I* process it .. in 25 years, ive never processed tech pan like that in 35 or 4x5 format .. seems like a good way to ruin film though .... no matter what film, tank or system you use

*shakes head* we aren't talking about how YOU do them, we are talking about how kodak tells you you're supposed to do it...

118959

The full instructions here...

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/p255/p255.pdf

So again, shaking has been done for 50 years, somehow good negs were begotten from them.

Now this technique with normal film will cause grain issues unlike with tech pan...and can be done successfully without damaging the film in a tank.

jnantz
26-Jul-2014, 16:48
did you read your post?
you said " ... shake it like a can of paint, thats how "you" process it"
and since i am the youbeing written to i responded, and it STILL sounds to me like a great way to ruin any film. "I" dont shake my film like a paint can, you might but "I" dont . ...
and i dont read every bit of advice given to me on an internet forum

StoneNYC
26-Jul-2014, 17:02
stone did you read your post? you said " ... shake it like a can of paint, thats how "you" process it"
and since i am the " you" being written to i said that isnt how i process it, and it sounds to me like a good way to ruin any film. "I" dont shake my film like a paint can, you might but "I" dont . ...

John, don't be like this, you knew what I meant and you're just trying to start an argument, it's only making YOU look bad because you're acting immature, this post isn't about you, it's about the OP, and I was making a suggestion to them not to you... And you made the suggestion that it couldn't be done without ruining the film, so I referenced a technique specifically calling for A PERSON who is developing tech pan to shake it vigorously... As proof that it CAN BE DONE and that's directly from Kodak...

Just PLEASE stop being argumentative for arguments sake, and be helpful. This post is not about you nor I... And please don't being APUG drama here, I like this place.

jnantz
26-Jul-2014, 17:22
your original post seemed a bit odd and i responded why i thought it was ...
you dont have the years of experience a lot of folks here have and it seemed like a dangerous technique to suggest. i mean if someone with 2 or 3(?) years of experience processing sheet film suggested you shake it like a can of paint what would you think?
you responded to me so i responded in kind ... this thread has nothing to do with me but barry's question how to make grainy film ... but if some asks me a question comments that what i suggest sounds like it will wreck film i am going to respond, and not get all offended if someone questions my technique.

with or without kodak instructions ... it still sounds off the wall.
the good folks who used to work at the professional div of kodak ( seasoned kodak employees, rit students &al.) never told me to process my tech pan like that,and if they did i would have questioned it ... in 25 years i have never heard of anyone shaking sheets of techpan like a can of paint .. and yes, without a jobo tank it sounds like a great way to ruin expensive large format film and i said why earlier in this thread .. surge marks, and scratches. YOU do it, great, have a great time ... i won't, i have other ways less dangeous i will use.

get over it... i certainly am

stradibarrius
27-Jul-2014, 08:50
Well I am the OP and I always process my 4x5 using the TACO method in a Patterson tank so shaking it would be no problem. Stone, are you suggesting that I just replace my normal, timed, gentle inversions with shaking?

StoneNYC
27-Jul-2014, 09:41
Well I am the OP and I always process my 4x5 using the TACO method in a Patterson tank so shaking it would be no problem. Stone, are you suggesting that I just replace my normal, timed, gentle inversions with shaking?

Yup! That's what I'm saying.

There may be SOME adjustment to time needed but it should be slight so won't really ruin anything with a trial test, and should still knock off the bubbles, maybe wait 10 seconds for it to settle before knocking them off, but give it a try. My only caution is that taco with heavy shaking might cause the taco itself to fold over? I never liked that method so I can't be sure.

Maybe keep a reel on the top of the taco so the film doesn't fly around too much inside?

Make sure you use Tri-X or HP5+ or FOMA400 for maximum grain ;)

Good luck!

Brian C. Miller
27-Jul-2014, 10:54
Stone, the Kodak Techpan development instructions you posted are for roll film. The instructions for sheet film describes the shuffle method, on the next page. "Use the special agitation procedure described below for best processing uniformity in a tray."

stradibarrius, the agitation method can change contrast and development time, but it won't change the maximum size of the grain clump. You have to use a grainier film, like Delta 3200.

djdister
27-Jul-2014, 12:04
Two thoughts:

I still think the simplest thing to do is shoot 120 Tri-X with a rollfilm back and use vigorous agitation and tank inversions.

If you insist on shooting 4x5 and want pronounced grain, start with Tri-X, underexpose and overdevelop it in a developer that does not knock the edges off the silver grains.

Peter De Smidt
27-Jul-2014, 12:59
Or use the same film and development that you do with 35mm film, as close as you can, at least, and enlarge the LF image the same amount as you would the 35mm. I have some friends who make big prints from 8x10. They often use fairly grainy film, and it's quite visible.

If you have any Bergger 200 in the fridge. Use that. Freakin huge grain.

StoneNYC
27-Jul-2014, 13:09
Stone, the Kodak Techpan development instructions you posted are for roll film. The instructions for sheet film describes the shuffle method, on the next page. "Use the special agitation procedure described below for best processing uniformity in a tray."

stradibarrius, the agitation method can change contrast and development time, but it won't change the maximum size of the grain clump. You have to use a grainier film, like Delta 3200.

Brian,

There is no delta 3200 in 4x5 sheet film.

There's no hard and fast rules about anything, only opinion on what one prefers, this is art, let the OP try it and tell me it didn't work, or come back saying it did.

I do believe Rodinal or Ilfsol3 with the "shaking" method would work better for producing high grain-look than some other developers.

Yes I know it's about roll film, the point was it was suggested that even with roll film that "no one" shakes it, and I was demonstrating that this was incorrect.

Anyway, this is just a suggested based on experience and my own tests, I used to shake it because I didn't know you weren't supposed to, and got high grain images using Rodinal then changed that to gentile agitation and got fine grained using Rodinal. This was with SCANNING not optical printing so I don't know how that changes with optical.

Have you ever shaken it? If not then you don't know how the results will turn out ;) only conjecture.

It's still 4x5 so lots of surface area, still may not show well unless the print is large. We'll find out when the OP reports back.

cikaziva
27-Jul-2014, 13:29
this is HP5 pushed to 800 asa and over developed to get the grain and contrast. 24C 11min Ilfotec DD-X

jnantz
27-Jul-2014, 14:23
Yes I know it's about roll film, the point was it was suggested that even with roll film that "no one" shakes it, and I was demonstrating that this was incorrect.


if you are quoting me i didnt say no one shakes film to develop it. i asked how it was done
seeing it was sheet film and easy to damage one way or another.
i also said after speaking with kodak reps (on maybe 3 occasions)
they never once suggested i shake film
i had never seen the instructions you posted kodak never mailed me any seeing my tech pan days were pre internet, my film guy never told me about that
and a friend who worked at a commercial lab never told me about that technique either...
so shaking sheet film is all news to me ( and as brian pointed out news to kodak too ?)

my post is only a few up from this it wasnt hard to read, im not sure how you
got " no one does" from "*I* dont " and "The folks at kodak never told me to do it ..."
or " i have never heard of anyone doing it"
( plenty of people do things i have never heard of ).

stone i have no interested in a pissing contest with you
so please dont continue with this ... just. ...
next time you want to quote me, actually refer to what i write ...



barry sorry for disrupting your thread .. good luck with your grain ...

StoneNYC
27-Jul-2014, 14:47
.... My 1980's tech pan came with the same instructions.... Difficult...

Brian C. Miller
27-Jul-2014, 14:56
There is no delta 3200 in 4x5 sheet film.
...
Have you ever shaken it? If not then you don't know how the results will turn out ;) only conjecture.

Yeah, with roll film. But not with sheet film.

Yes, I know that Delta 3200 doesn't come in 4x5 format. That's why there's roll film backs, or a person can tape the film into a holder.

118978

jnantz
27-Jul-2014, 15:08
.... My 1980's tech pan came with the same instructions.... Difficult...

yup difficult since the instructions for SHEETS are to process in trays ..
maybe read the instructions AND what i wrote ??
i shake ROLL FILM in hand tanks from time to time ... but that has nothing to do with this thread or the op's question or this website.

this isnt apug or a forum for roll films
but the LF forum so ... by default we are talking about SHEET FILM ... lol

stradibarrius
28-Jul-2014, 06:51
great photo and the grain in the sky looks great.
this is HP5 pushed to 800 asa and over developed to get the grain and contrast. 24C 11min Ilfotec DD-X

stradibarrius
28-Jul-2014, 07:03
119017119018
this is HP5 pushed to 800 asa and over developed to get the grain and contrast. 24C 11min Ilfotec DD-X

The main reason I am asking about 4x5 opposed to MF or 35mm is because if I'm out with my 4x5 and see a shot that I think would look great with grain I would like to know how to get that with sheet film. It is easy with 35mm. here is an example to show you I know what I am after. This was using Kodak HIE IR film so I know that it will have more grain than typical B&W film so please don't go down the IR vs. standard B&W path. These are only to show whhy someone would want grain.

stradibarrius
28-Jul-2014, 07:05
I know I would never get this type grain from 4x5 B&W...

jp
28-Jul-2014, 07:15
velcro a minox to your camera.

Bill_1856
28-Jul-2014, 07:19
Develop your film in DEKTOL.

djdister
28-Jul-2014, 08:06
I know I would never get this type grain from 4x5 B&W...

That is the correct answer. The closest you will get is similar to the pushed HP5 example posted by cikaziva.

cikaziva
28-Jul-2014, 09:29
i really dont know if you can get the size and shape form 35mm that you posted. HP5 or any other fill has the same size emulsion crystals on all formats and it would not be possible to have same size in 4x5 format. try Dektol or even positive paper developer and cook it at 26C or more. see what will happen personally i would push fill to a limit under exposed it for several stops and then over developing it in hot positive developer... or if you need movements shoot with roll film back 6x9 and then push a same way it will be better.

personally i love grain when i am shooting structures, dead gray, concrete. i find that grain is esential to give back nice contract and life to concrete. thats why i usual push HP5 for this type of shots

Domingo A. Siliceo
28-Jul-2014, 10:17
Maybe a silly idea but... what if you expose a negative the "normal" way and when enlarging use a frosted glass above the film?

StoneNYC
28-Jul-2014, 12:37
119017119018

The main reason I am asking about 4x5 opposed to MF or 35mm is because if I'm out with my 4x5 and see a shot that I think would look great with grain I would like to know how to get that with sheet film. It is easy with 35mm. here is an example to show you I know what I am after. This was using Kodak HIE IR film so I know that it will have more grain than typical B&W film so please don't go down the IR vs. standard B&W path. These are only to show whhy someone would want grain.

I really love that second image, it's really beautiful!

That's all I've got! Haha looking forward to your test.

jnantz
28-Jul-2014, 13:14
Develop your film in DEKTOL.

hi bill

what dilution and times and way to process would you recommend ?
i have seen dektol processed film and it looks not very grainy
pretty nice mid tones, and similar to film i process myself in ansco 130 ...
which is nice contrast " snap " not excessive grain ..... i usually process it about 8.5 mins at about 72 deg F 1:8 ish
in trays shuffling continuously ... and i get the same looking negs in tanks and hangers and in a rotary processor ...
( my results were pretty much the same as GAF universal developer ) ...

john

Scott Davis
28-Jul-2014, 14:04
Definitely recommend Dektol - 1:3 dilution. Grainy as all get-out, but still sharp. Times will be FAST with Dektol - 3 minutes @ 75 degrees F. Another thing you can do to boost the grain is to run it hot - 75F to 80F (don't go too much hotter or you'll risk reticulating the film).

analoguey
28-Jul-2014, 14:16
Yeah, with roll film. But not with sheet film.

Yes, I know that Delta 3200 doesn't come in 4x5 format. That's why there's roll film backs, or a person can tape the film into a holder.

118978

That looks like a great thing to experiment with - how did you process the 35mm film afterwards? I suppose you shot them stuck to one side of a holder?

jnantz
28-Jul-2014, 14:41
Definitely recommend Dektol - 1:3 dilution. Grainy as all get-out, but still sharp. Times will be FAST with Dektol - 3 minutes @ 75 degrees F. Another thing you can do to boost the grain is to run it hot - 75F to 80F (don't go too much hotter or you'll risk reticulating the film).


ive run it 80ish and all my emulsion came off rhe film. was using. i dont recommend running it too hot ...
thaks scott for times although 1:3 is kind of short in the soup ..
... isnt development risky/uneven at times less than 5 mins ?
( even the shuffle )

Brian C. Miller
29-Jul-2014, 06:51
That looks like a great thing to experiment with - how did you process the 35mm film afterwards? I suppose you shot them stuck to one side of a holder?

I did this for another thread in the Lounge, on the eventual death of sheet film. This one was my second attempt. The film was taped on the inside of an 8x10 holder (learned lesson: curly side in faces the lens!), and then I loaded it onto a Jobo reel (learned lesson: film can overlap! Tape it first, the refix the ends.)

Scott Davis
29-Jul-2014, 13:50
ive run it 80ish and all my emulsion came off rhe film. was using. i dont recommend running it too hot ...
thaks scott for times although 1:3 is kind of short in the soup ..
... isnt development risky/uneven at times less than 5 mins ?
( even the shuffle )

That is certainly possible. I did this with Kodak Tmax 3200 35mm film, and gave more frequent if shorter agitation cycles; everything came out perfectly even. If I were going to try this for sheet film, I'd run it in my Jobo using the P setting used for C-41 instead of the minimal setting I use for running Pyro. Combine the potency of Dektol with the vigorous agitation of the faster setting on the Jobo and you should have a great recipe for grainy sheet film.

stradibarrius
7-Aug-2014, 11:49
119512119511Well I took two exposures and processed both in rodinal . One I use normal gentle inversion and the other replacing the inversions for shaking the tank end to end. Not exactly what I was looking for. Neither of these have been Photo Shopped only crop to 50%.

djdister
7-Aug-2014, 12:00
Well I took two exposures and processed both in rodinal . One I use normal gentle inversion and the other replacing the inversions for shaking the tank end to end. Not exactly what I was looking for. Neither of these have been Photo Shopped only crop to 50%.

Not sure TMax (or any T-grain film) is the best choice for this kind of effect - would suggest Tri-X or Fomapan instead...

StoneNYC
7-Aug-2014, 12:04
119512119511Well I took two exposures and processed both in rodinal . One I use normal gentle inversion and the other replacing the inversions for shaking the tank end to end. Not exactly what I was looking for. Neither of these have been Photo Shopped only crop to 50%.

Which film?

I assume the second one is the shaken? Seems grainy in the shadows at least.

As I said you might need to adjust exposure, try again with less exposure?

Sorry it didn't help as much as you had hoped...

Why do you need it to be 4x5 again? Can you get away with a 6x7 roll film back on a 4x5? You'll still have the control of LF but with more inherent grain?

This doesn't look like HP5+ by the way, which film did you use?

stradibarrius
7-Aug-2014, 13:44
Hp5

djdister
7-Aug-2014, 14:01
Hp5

The photos had "TMax" in the filenames, so they were really HP5?

stradibarrius
7-Aug-2014, 14:58
119540119539Let try again... In the other post One of the shots had been PP'd. The title in the block says TMax but it is not both are HP5.
HP5 in Rodinal

Peter De Smidt
7-Aug-2014, 15:45
You could try Crawley's FX-1: http://www.redisonellis.com/fx1.html, ideally with semi-stand agitation. Another option would be x-ray film.

StoneNYC
7-Aug-2014, 20:39
You could try Crawley's FX-1: http://www.redisonellis.com/fx1.html, ideally with semi-stand agitation. Another option would be x-ray film.

I believe Adox now sells this pre-botted, I think...?