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Ari
23-Jul-2014, 08:50
Hi,

I've lately been considering the purchase of a Heliar.

Having heard so much about the Heliar's image quality, I have a question for you Heliar aficionados:
Is there any difference in sharpness, OOF look, or contrast, between an earlier uncoated Heliar and a later coated version?
I mean outside of the usual caveats about coated vs uncoated lenses.

I'm thinking specifically on B&W film, and of a lens that will cover 8x10, so the 30cm or 36cm is what I have in mind.

Thanks in advance.

Ken Lee
23-Jul-2014, 09:25
Given 2 Heliars in the same focal length where the only apparent difference is coating, there will likely be a difference in age.

Both may have the same name but there's a chance that the actual designs will differ, since they changed over time.

To read more about the changes to Heliars over time, see http://www.antiquecameras.net/heliarlenses.html

Ari
23-Jul-2014, 10:21
Thanks for the link, Ken.

Harold_4074
23-Jul-2014, 11:54
As I just found out, an uncoated 42 cm Heliar is terrible at 1:1 with only backlight on the subject. Not sure how much of this is due to lens corrections, how much to internal reflections, and how much it would improve with cleaning. But this is definitely the wrong lens for the application!

anachromatic
23-Jul-2014, 15:10
Uncoated with proper sunshade will be sweet.....very sweet!

Ari
23-Jul-2014, 15:11
Most of my lenses are terrible at 1:1, and they're modern & coated.
But that's a pretty impressive amount of bellows extension, Harold!

tangyimail
23-Jul-2014, 15:34
As I just found out, an uncoated 42 cm Heliar is terrible at 1:1 with only backlight on the subject. Not sure how much of this is due to lens corrections, how much to internal reflections, and how much it would improve with cleaning. But this is definitely the wrong lens for the application!

You are doing a 1:1 with a 42CM lens? Wow......

Riise
24-Jul-2014, 06:16
Here's a comparison between a coated and an uncoated 30cm Heliar.
Earlier this year I helped a friend to clean his early (95xxx) uncoated lens. I did a fast test to compare it to my late (6xxxxxx) coated Heliar, a Tessar and a Plasmat. In total four exposures. Unfortunately only one exposure per lens so perfect focus is not guarantied.

Test conditions:

All four 4x5 exposures taken in sequence without model moving.

Lighting: Profoto D1 Monolight with 2x3' softbox. Lenses wide open - exposure controlled by the flash.

Camera on tripod. Rear standard untouched. Refocused wiht front standard after lens change.

Focused on left eye. (right from camera)

All four Fomapan 100 film sheets developed at the same time.

All films scanned with the same fixed scanner settings. No auto exposure etc.

The same small levels and curves correction in Photoshop for all images. No other post-processing.


http://riisefoto.se/images/heliar/Heliar30cm_uncoated.jpg
Uncoated Heliar 30cm (ca1908) @ f/4.5

http://riisefoto.se/images/heliar/Heliar30cm_coated.jpg
Coated Heliar 30cm (ca1963) @ f/4.5

http://riisefoto.se/images/heliar/Tessar300mm.jpg
Docter Wetzlar Tessar 5.6/300mm @5.6 (+0.7EV power added to flash)

http://riisefoto.se/images/heliar/Symmar300mm.jpg
Symmar (convertible) 5.6/300mm @5.6 (+0.7EV power added to flash)

The contrast and transmission is slightly higher on the coated Heliar compared to the uncoated. They are equally sharp.

Ari
24-Jul-2014, 07:24
Thank you, Riise, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Tracy Storer
24-Jul-2014, 11:02
Nice "taste test". I frequently an uncoated 11.75" Heliar on 8x10, but you do need to watch for light sources in the image to avoid flare.

Ari
24-Jul-2014, 15:03
Well, I just got myself an early, uncoated, 30cm brass Heliar from a very kind forum member.
I'll post a few comparison shots (Heliar, G&C, and 12" CE) in due time.
Until then, thanks for everybody's input.

Ari
31-Jul-2014, 10:58
I have a question, now that a 30cm Heliar lens is on its way to me:

Were I to want to get a shutter, I've read that the Compound V is the one that will fit.

My question is, does it attach by front-mounting, or can I attach each element to both front and rear of the shutter?

Thank you

Tracy Storer
31-Jul-2014, 11:59
I had my 11.75" (300mm basically) Heliar mounted (actually mounted with the shutter in between the lens cells) in an Ilex 5 by SKG.

Ari
31-Jul-2014, 12:25
Thanks, Tracy; so to mount to an Ilex 5, were adapter/spacer rings needed?
I'd love to be able to afford SKG, but too often, they are out of my price range.

Tim Deming
31-Jul-2014, 21:39
I have a question, now that a 30cm Heliar lens is on its way to me:

Were I to want to get a shutter, I've read that the Compound V is the one that will fit.

My question is, does it attach by front-mounting, or can I attach each element to both front and rear of the shutter?

Thank you

A barrel 30cm heliar cells wont fit directly into a compound 5. Voigtlander used different mounts for barrel and shuttered lenses, and changed this tooling often over the years. You will have to do a custom mounting to get your barrel cells to fit into any shutter

Cheers

Tim

jesse
1-Aug-2014, 00:35
I have a question, now that a 30cm Heliar lens is on its way to me:

Were I to want to get a shutter, I've read that the Compound V is the one that will fit.

My question is, does it attach by front-mounting, or can I attach each element to both front and rear of the shutter?

Thank you

It is better to fit it into a Sinar shutter.

Steven Tribe
1-Aug-2014, 01:30
If you only have a limited number of barrel lenses (apart from the 30cm Heliar), a more economic choice would be a front mounted T-P shutter - or even a Zettor type. These are readily available in sizes which would match the Heliar - but become more difficult to find for 36 and 42cm versions. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, these are absolutely secure in function and even apparent deceased shutters can be made to work well. The copal/sinar shutter is very useful, but there are many cameras where an adaption to fit it behind the lens board/front standard and the bellows makes for an ugly result.

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 06:12
Thank you, Tim, Jesse and Steven.
A Sinar shutter is not likely, as fitting it to a Toyo 810M would indeed be awkward and ugly, and may prevent the camera from folding normally.
Steven, I've not considered the Thornton-Pickard, but will investigate; thanks for the information.

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 10:25
Another question, please indulge me. :)

There are two serial numbers on the Heliar I just purchased, see photo.

Which is the serial number? There's about 30 years between those serial numbers.
I'm inclined to guess that the number next to No. is the actual serial number, which would date it to 1906.

It's not important, but I am curious.
Thanks in advance.

Dan Fromm
1-Aug-2014, 10:35
D.R.P. 124934 = German Patent 124934








ger

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 10:36
So that's what the P stands for; thanks, Dan!

CCHarrison
1-Aug-2014, 10:48
The acronym D.R.P. with or without punctuation stands for Deutsches Reichspatent which literally means 'German imperial patent'.

FROM http://www.assistedknife.com/index.cfm/fa/subcategories.main/parentcat/26847/subcatid/80975

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 11:15
Thanks, CC.

Steven Tribe
1-Aug-2014, 12:06
I don't whether this has cleaned recently - if not, it is worth doing.

The threads get a little difficult if they haven't been moved for decades - it is amazing how much black oxide appears in the thread groves. In addition, the interior of the barrel is not usually painted (black) and loads of decomposition products settle on everything, including the back of the central lens and the inside surface of the rear lens.

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 13:14
I'll certainly clean it when it gets here, thanks Steven.
I'll take it to my machinist's if there are any serious problems with threads.

cowanw
1-Aug-2014, 15:23
and there's this on Mr. Harrison`s site
http://www.antiquecameras.net/heliarlenses.html
Which shows this lens as an original recipe

Ari
1-Aug-2014, 15:29
Saw that; thanks, Bill.