"affordable" makro lens

[zsolt]

Hi All!
would like to get into closeup-makro 4x5 photography.
made some test shots with my schneider 150mm lens,and saw that the corners are not sharp at all.neither with the 65mm..
found here also ideas of enlarging lenses turned around.but its not working for me,cause my objects i want to photograph are not "flat",like a coin.
made a research here,and found out that for this case i would need a "makro" lens.
ok..
to boil it down.
i would like to photograph "3D" objects,with texture in/on them.
red here that the sironar from rodenstock kicks ass.but to be honest my wallet cant handle it.(its 1000-1500 on ebay)
but i found different types..one with a yellow line,one with a red line and one without..
may i ask someone whats the difference?
can the non-lined be also used to makro-closeup work,or just for "distance work"?
could you tell me some good lenses,that could work for me,and would cost around 2-300 dollar max?
Thanks!
All help is Appreciated!!
AlltheBest!!
attila

[Pete Watkins]

Tominon lenses?
Pete

[polyglot]

Fancy lenses won't get you more depth of field. Doing LF macro inherently means you get a tiny DOF because the required magnifications are very large. If you want to get non-flat objects in focus, you need to use focus stacking and similar advanced techniques, no special macro lens alone will do it for you.

Proper macro lenses will get you a flat field, sharp to the corners even at high magnifications. Enlarger lenses will mostly get you that too, but usually don't fit shutters and some have odd rendition in the out-of-focus regions.

[Bob Salomon]

The Rodenstock analog Macro lenses that are recently made have a gold stripe and are corrected for image ratios from 1:5 to 2:1. The Rodenstock macro lens for digital has a purple stripe.
The red stripe is on the Apo Sironar S which are corrected for infinity to 1:10.

[Dan Fromm]

OP, there are many ways to get decent image quality at magnifications at magnifications above 1:10.

So, first things first. How much extension does your camera have? What's the range of magnifications at which you want to work?

If you don't give us this information the advice you get will be poor. Extension limits the magnification you can get given focal length. People will suggest lenses too long for your camera and desired range of magnifications. Lenses for use close-up are usually best at a relatively narrow range of magnifications. People will suggest lenses that will work for you but give poor results.

Pete, in my experience Tominon lenses in barrel for the Polaroid MP-4 are so-so and the shorter ones (17, 35, 50) are very cost-effective. The 127/4.7 in shutter for, e.g., the Polaroid CU-5, is quite good up to 1:4 (as high as I've shot it).

You don't seem to know very much. Buy Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography -- its available used via, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ... at reasonable prices -- and study it before you spend any money on equipment. Also read the macro section of my lens diary (http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/optiques-6x9-dan-fromm-v2-2011-04-08.pdf in French, http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf in English).

[Pete Watkins]

Hi Dan,
I know that they ain't the best but he wanted cheap, Tominons are (or should be) cheap. He might decide that it's not really interested so he shouldn't have wasted a lot of cash. There are adaptors available for Copal 1's that allow an enlarging lens to be fitted. Gonna need a lot of bellows though.
Pete.

[Tin Can]

I just bought a copy of Lester's book, in very good cond for under $5 delivered.

Thanks Dan!


OP, there are many ways to get decent image quality at magnifications at magnifications above 1:10.

So, first things first. How much extension does your camera have? What's the range of magnifications at which you want to work?

If you don't give us this information the advice you get will be poor. Extension limits the magnification you can get given focal length. People will suggest lenses too long for your camera and desired range of magnifications. Lenses for use close-up are usually best at a relatively narrow range of magnifications. People will suggest lenses that will work for you but give poor results.

Pete, in my experience Tominon lenses in barrel for the Polaroid MP-4 are so-so and the shorter ones (17, 35, 50) are very cost-effective. The 127/4.7 in shutter for, e.g., the Polaroid CU-5, is quite good up to 1:4 (as high as I've shot it).

You don't seem to know very much. Buy Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography -- its available used via, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ... at reasonable prices -- and study it before you spend any money on equipment. Also read the macro section of my lens diary (http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/optiques-6x9-dan-fromm-v2-2011-04-08.pdf in French, http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf in English).

[Dan Fromm]

Hi Dan,
I know that they ain't the best but he wanted cheap, Tominons are (or should be) cheap. He might decide that it's not really interested so he shouldn't have wasted a lot of cash. There are adaptors available for Copal 1's that allow an enlarging lens to be fitted. Gonna need a lot of bellows though.
Pete.

Pete, FYI MP-4 Tominons screw right into the front of a #1, no adapter needed. They're not in M39 like enlarging lenses.

[Bob Salomon]

Hi Dan,
I know that they ain't the best but he wanted cheap, Tominons are (or should be) cheap. He might decide that it's not really interested so he shouldn't have wasted a lot of cash. There are adaptors available for Copal 1's that allow an enlarging lens to be fitted. Gonna need a lot of bellows though.
Pete.

"i would like to photograph "3D" objects,with texture in/on them."

This would rule out a lens made for reproducing flat art on a copy stand.

Also, to capture that texture he would be best off using a good polarizer on the lens and polarizers on the lights, unless he is photographing precious metals.

[zsolt]

firstofall:Thanks Everyone!
yes,Dan,i dont know much,thats the reason im here..to learn:)
and You are right,so here are more details:lets say i would like to photograph "rough" small stones,with suuupperfine detail.
1:5-1:10 would work just fine.
i would like to use a linhof technika III(dunno the exact extension,cause im not around her,but can measure later)
Thanks Everyone!!i appreciate Your help a Lot!
Best!

[Dan Fromm]

(1) Be patient and buy the book before you do anything else. When the book arrives -- you'll probably have to buy from a seller in the US -- read it. Haste makes waste.

(2) When you write "1:5-1:10" do you mean that the image on film will be 1/5 to 1/10 the size of the stone?

(3) How big (length, width, depth) are the stones?

[zsolt]

0-book ordered Dan,thanks!
1-i am patient..:)
2-yes,thats what i ment..that the stone is 1/5 to 1/10 the size of the film(dunno if i sad it right..)
3-lets say:3cm lenght,2cm width,and 2 cm depth.
Thanks Dan!

[Dan Fromm]

2-yes,thats what i ment..that the stone is 1/5 to 1/10 the size of the film(dunno if i sad it right..)
3-lets say:3cm lenght,2cm width,and 2 cm depth.


Oh, dear.

If the image on film is 5 to 10 times as large as the stone then magnification will be 5:1 to 10:1. At these magnifications the effective f/ number -- Lefkowitz explains how to calculate it -- will be 6 to 11 times the f/ number set. In other words, if you shoot at 5:1 at, say, f/16 the effective aperture will be f/96. This has two implications. You'll need bright lights or long exposure. And the diffraction limited resolution at the center of the frame will be ~ 15 lp/mm; it will be lower off axis. You won't be able to capture fine detail. And, yes, depth of field will be very small.

Since your subjects can't move you should look into using digital capture, not film, with focus stacking as Bob Salomon suggested.

[zsolt]

Thanks Dan!

im going to read more,make more experiments,and ask less..
thanks for your time,advice,Dan,and Everyone!
have a nice day!

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks Dan!

im going to read more,make more experiments,and ask less..
thanks for your time,advice,Dan,and Everyone!
have a nice day!

Bear in mind, the depth of field runs from in front of the focus point to behind it. So if you want the greatest depth of field at the aperture you are using in the macro range you need to focus about half way into the area that you want sharp. Otherwise the depth of field in front of the subject isn't doing anything for you.

[zsolt]

Thanks a Lot Bob!
really helpful thought,not gonna forget it!
AlltheBest!

[IanG]

On a low budget you might look at using a Compon enlarger lens, at one time Schneider sold them mounted in a shutter as Macro lenses. A 135mm Componon will fit a #0 shutter.

Ian

[Tin Can]

Got Lester's book today. Very comprehensive and covers macro anything, way easier to read this book than scan the Internet for this info.