how tomimprove digital printing skills?

[stradibarrius]

I am a medium skilled digital printer. I have an Epson 3800 printer. Is there a book that you would recommend that really teaches printing skills?I scann my negatives with an Epson V700 if that makes any difference and I also have a darkroom and am working on those skills as well, but my digital printer gets most of my efforts at this point.

[djdister]

Two books I like:
Fine Art Printing for Photographers, by Uwe Steinmueller
The Digital Print, by Jeff Schewe

[Lenny Eiger]

IMO, it all depends on what skill you think you are missing. Generally speaking, people improve by trying to achieve a specific result. (Failing, then working at it until they get it.)

Therefore, the first part of increasing one's skill is to increase the sense of what one is after. This is best done by looking at books of prints and actual prints. Images from the early history often have a wonderful sense of atmosphere. Whether one is looking at Frederick Evans or Sutcliffe, Timothy O'Sullivan or the work from the PhotoSecession, Steichen, Clarence White or Strand, there are numerous examples of photographic printing's seminal ideas. The contrasty look came quite a bit later, and personally I could do without the gloom of a Brett Weston. That's an opinion, not a fact, and you will need to find your own sense of where you want to be by looking at historic photographers' work.

Of course, I don't know you and you may have already done this... if so, my apologies.

That said, once you get a sense of where you want your printing style to be, then you have PhotoShop to wrangle to the ground. I find very few people that have succeeded at this. I scan professionally and I always talk to my customers to see if I can help them do better at this. There is a lot of disinformation on how to use PhotoShop out there; its a lot easier than what most people come up with. Getting a Wacom table and learning how to mask a curve adjustment layer covers most of what people need. Elaborate techniques and plugins aren't as useful as knowing how to add and subtract masks from each other.

I hope this helps,

Lenny

[Heroique]

I scan my negatives with an Epson v700 if that makes any difference...

As you know, excellent digital printing is helped by, even born from excellent scanning.

If you think there's still room to improve scanning on your v700, search for posts by the late Ted Harris in the digital processing forum.

His posts contain a wealth of valuable and practical scanning tips – you can refine your search as needed (e.g., as it applies to printing), but he's worth reading straight through. Now that I think about it, about 95% of my best scanning practices are from him.

He might be gone, but his spirit remains...

[sanking]

I too learned a lot about scanning from Ted Harris.

See also Ken Lee's tips on scanning. Ken is a real master at getting he most out of film with the Epson V700.

http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/scanning.php

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Plus one on Ted , he was also a great guy to hang out with.


I too learned a lot about scanning from Ted Harris.

See also Ken Lee's tips on scanning. Ken is a real master at getting he most out of film with the Epson V700.

http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/scanning.php

Sandy

[towolf]

Now is the best time to apply a correction. Better now than later. Every adjustment is destructive, and this is where we go from analog to digital, so it's best to do it now.

Only, everything on the Color tab in VueScan is a digital post-processing step. Only the controls on the Input tab pertain to analog gain, channel exposure time and such.
If you write 16-bit channels from VueScan it doesn’t matter if you do it in the scanning software or later.

Cargo culting, really.

[Tyler Boley]

just like the darkroom, or alternative processes, knowledge of your tools and materials remains a requirement. No amount of scanning and/or photoshop skill will bring an image alive with materials that have no inherent potential beauty to exploit. The very first workshop I had long ago, when I was a poor beginner, I was asked what my prints were on. They were on a budget paper I could afford, with whatever paper developer the rental darkroom used, and not toned..
When I answered, Michael Burns said.. sorry, but no matter how skilled you become, you will never make a beautiful print on that paper. He was right.
You have to learn and live and breathe these materials. They are what your work is made of, what makes it corporeal, I see this mentioned so rarely in this digital age, and it's more important than ever, which is one reason you see so much unremarkable work.
The other thing Michael said.. unfortunately this tends to be an expensive obsession. Still true. You're going to have to try all this stuff...

[Ken Lee]

Only, everything on the Color tab in VueScan is a digital post-processing step. Only the controls on the Input tab pertain to analog gain, channel exposure time and such.

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't aware that with the EPSON, there is any way to control analog gain, exposure time etc. My impression - perhaps misguided admittedly - is that with EPSON scanners like the 3200, 4990, V700 etc. all image adjustments are a form of post-processing only.

Perhaps other scanners allow for control of gain and individual channels prior to scanning. Therefore does Vuescan's interface, being generic and thus supporting those other scanners, convey a misleading impression with regard to these EPSON scanners ?

Is there documentation which describes these matters ?

Thanks !

[towolf]

I wasn't aware that with the EPSON, there is any way to control analog gain, exposure time etc. My impression - perhaps misguided admittedly - is that with EPSON scanners like the 3200, 4990, V700 etc. all image adjustments are a form of post-processing only.

Perhaps other scanners allow for control of gain and individual channels prior to scanning. Therefore does Vuescan's interface, being generic and thus supporting those other scanners, convey a misleading impression with regard to these EPSON scanners ?

There’s always control over exposure time. Even in the stock Epson software this is controlled. You scan a preview and make a selection, and the exposure time is set based on what intensities are inside the rectangle.

VueScan in addition allows to set this explicitly, either by numbers, or by selecting the background, and clicking "Lock Exposure".

What I really dislike about VueScan is the confusing labeling of the options. It is not clear what happens when.

Here’s an overview: http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc19.htm#topic16

Sometimes it talks about gain, when it means dwell time, or exposure time. Then there’s an option "Raw Save Film", which means it writes RAW, but applies Inversion, gamma and curves from the Color tab. Why call an option "RAW" when it is not? There’s the option to save RGB with gamma as 16-bit TIFF, as 16-bit TIFF DNG. Then there’s the option to save the same thing as "RAW TIFF" and "RAW TIFF DNG". It’s really muddled.

http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc28.htm#inputrgbinfraredexposure

I have access to a Nikon 35mm Scanner and I balance the scans coarsely with red/green/blue channel "gain". But that cannot be a final correction. I need curves for each channel. When I scan a Colorchecker, then the low histogram register is too blue, and the high register is too red.

The curve controls in VueScan with the control points at 0.25 and 0.75 are really awkward. Better to do that later at any rate.

Also annoying is "Lock Film Base Color". This is not analog, not even for Nikon scanners capable of channel exposure time. It just sets channel balance in the Color tab as post-processing step.

[Preston]

ToWolf,

Ed Hamrick has always been open to suggestions, at least that's my impression. Since you have concerns about the way VueScan operates and/or you have suggestions as to how items are explained in the userguide, let him know.

I've been using Vuescan for a long time, both for an old Epson 1200U and now my Microtek 1800F. Once I got used to how it works, I find it pretty easy to use compared to Epson Scan, Scan Wizard (Microtek) and Silverfast.

--P

[Ken Lee]

There’s always control over exposure time. Even in the stock Epson software this is controlled. You scan a preview and make a selection, and the exposure time is set based on what intensities are inside the rectangle.

The Epson driver allows us to control the brightness of the output image file, but I can't help but wonder whether the duration of exposure (or anything else for that matter) actually gets adjusted until after scan time. There are slider controls and histograms and a preview frame which are all hooked up together to let us manage properties of the output file, but those are software artifacts. We use them before we actually hit the "scan" button.

VueScan in addition allows to set this explicitly, either by numbers, or by selecting the background, and clicking "Lock Exposure".

The user interface conveys that impression - which may be appropriate for certain kinds of scanners where such controls are available - but it's all virtual, merely an emulation. The controls appear on VueScan, no matter what scanner we're controlling, because there's only one version of the user interface.

What I really dislike about VueScan is the confusing labeling of the options. It is not clear what happens when.

VueScan supports a huge variety of scanners but presents the same interface for all of them. That's the price we pay for it being generic software. We get the "lowest common denominator" for a very reasonable price.

[Adamphotoman]

Improving your Digital Printing Skill Set depends upon both input and output. IMHO folks depend too much on masking for local adjustments. I am not saying that one does not need to use masking, but that most workers might benefit from a better understanding of curves and perhaps channel blending. Dan Margulis has been teaching and writing about adjusting digital images for a very long time. It is from his books that I obtained a better understanding. His newest release is "Modern Photoshop Color Workflow" (ISBN 978-0-9882808-0-9)

[djdister]

A lot of good info about the importance of scanning negatives/prints to be sure, but the OP does need to hit the basics on digital printing - workflow, profiles, calibration of monitor/printer, and etc, otherwise even the best image scanning in the world will go right down the drain. That's why I listed the two books in an earlier post. I'm sure there are other good books about digital printing workflow as well.

[Kirk Gittings]

I am a medium skilled digital printer. I have an Epson 3800 printer. Is there a book that you would recommend that really teaches printing skills?I scann my negatives with an Epson V700 if that makes any difference and I also have a darkroom and am working on those skills as well, but my digital printer gets most of my efforts at this point.

Oddly enough I think that the prerequisite is being able to do a decent wet print. Seriously. You may already have that covered. But knowing how to make and knowing what a decent traditional print looks like helps one to rein in the virtually unlimited tools that one has in PS and concentrate on the basics necessary to bring a digital or any print to life.

[Lenny Eiger]

I still say the most important factor is knowing what you want. I think better prints from from studying printing. More than technique, seeing real prints and knowing what one is looking for is key. Then you can improve the technique over time to get yourself there, whether that's darkroom, inkjet or alt process. It's very hard to get to point B if you don't know where it is...

Lenny

[bob carnie]

I found that there are basically five or so key elements to good printing.

1. a good profile of the ink and paper you intend.
2. Sharpen the master file for the paper you are working on and keep an un sharpened master for different papers.
3. Look at prints like Lenny and Kirk suggest and if you have darkroom skill apply that skill with the various tools in PS.
4. Make sure your colour balance is correct before working on a file.
5. Keep in 16 bit when editing.
6. Learn how to make a layer, do an adjustment and then paint the adjustment where you want.

7. Start with 20 images and work on them with the tools you understand, then go to Kelby training and learn more basics.
8. redo the 20 images and work on them with the new tools you now have learned.

repeat 7 & 8 till you have worked with all the tools and understand when they are best used.

Kelby is great learning or Lynda.com - both of these sites are of huge value.

[Kirk Gittings]

ditto

[Lenny Eiger]

6. Learn how to make a layer, do an adjustment and then paint the adjustment where you want.

I'm with you on much of this. I haven't really had to deal with your second item - I don't sharpen until I'm ready to print. However, I'm unclear about number 6. I would qualify this as an adjustment layer and a mask vs a real data layer, except in special circumstances, like when a High Pass filter is required, etc. I don't like copying the background layer if i can avoid it. Starting with files over a Gig things can get large very quickly.

One tip I'll add: When I realized that a mask was a selection, not that different from selecting text in a text editor, it occurred to me that one could add to the selection with a shift key, and subtract from it with an option key. That meant I could add and subtract masks to and from each other. I could use a Select by Color Range or a Channel Mask to get one part of the mask I want, then do it again to get the next part, and merge them together (adding or subtracting). If I masked out a specific area to treat it differently, as part of the printing process, using this technique I could "knock it out" from previous layers so I wasn't moving it up on the curve in one layer and down on another. Masking got a lot easier with this one trick.

Lenny

[bob carnie]

Hi Lenny

Unlike most published teachers of Photoshop, I never keep layers open, I flatten and move on, I am pretty confident of my moves. doubling layers do increase file size and slow things down very quick.

This fly's in the face of commercial assignments, when many are working on a singular file, I am the only one working on any file for printing here so I keep my workflow pretty simple.





I'm with you on much of this. I haven't really had to deal with your second item - I don't sharpen until I'm ready to print. However, I'm unclear about number 6. I would qualify this as an adjustment layer and a mask vs a real data layer, except in special circumstances, like when a High Pass filter is required, etc. I don't like copying the background layer if i can avoid it. Starting with files over a Gig things can get large very quickly.

One tip I'll add: When I realized that a mask was a selection, not that different from selecting text in a text editor, it occurred to me that one could add to the selection with a shift key, and subtract from it with an option key. That meant I could add and subtract masks to and from each other. I could use a Select by Color Range or a Channel Mask to get one part of the mask I want, then do it again to get the next part, and merge them together (adding or subtracting). If I masked out a specific area to treat it differently, as part of the printing process, using this technique I could "knock it out" from previous layers so I wasn't moving it up on the curve in one layer and down on another. Masking got a lot easier with this one trick.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

Unlike most published teachers of Photoshop, I never keep layers open, I flatten and move on, I am pretty confident of my moves. doubling layers do increase file size and slow things down very quick.

You've been doing this long enough, with success, and I am not here to question anything about your methods.

However, I like my process as well. I create the masks and adjustment layers I need before I start printing and then its just a matter of moving parts of the curves up or down until the print starts to sing. The adjustment layers are always there if I overcorrect, and I leave them there so that when I come back to print the image a year later I don't have to re-select things. The paper batches change, the ink is different, the temp and humidity is different and a black and white print isn't ever the same as it looked I made it the first time. I'm not even the same, I may want the print to be a little different....

I am actually thinking of moving from one ink set to another. I have a mix of two 6 ink sets and I think I want to go to warm neutral, with a few other channels shifting in there to go warmer or colder. Without adjustment layers that can be tweaked just a bit to bring things back in line, it would be a total hassle to redo all that work. There is a reason for adjustment layers. They are very efficient.

Just my opinion,

Lenny

[bob carnie]

I work in PS like I do in the darkroom, I only move forward and never go back to tests, its the way I cut my teeth in this printing profession.

I have no issue with people keeping open layers to go back to, but in the file size you are working it takes up a lot of space and in some cases slow down your moves.

I have always made a master 16 bit unsharpened file that I keep in reserve . Any changes that I want are minor after this main file is done.

[Lenny Eiger]

I work in PS like I do in the darkroom, I only move forward and never go back to tests, its the way I cut my teeth in this printing profession.
I have no issue with people keeping open layers to go back to, but in the file size you are working it takes up a lot of space and in some cases slow down your moves.
I have always made a master 16 bit unsharpened file that I keep in reserve . Any changes that I want are minor after this main file is done.

I started in the darkroom also, as you know. I would say that I work the same way. I just give myself a way back, so that I don't have to do everything over again for the next print, whether that be 5 mins from now or 5 months. Further, this strategy falls apart, if you create a layer which makes some area of the print lighter and you flatten it, then decide to make that same area darker, you will begin to degrade the image. Especially in color. I have had occasion to work on files that someone did the way you are describing and there was no way to understand what had been done, there were plenty of areas where the tonal range had been compressed and lightening it up did not separate those values again. Data can easily be lost.

Adjustment layers used to take a lot of space back in CS2, but they don't anymore. They add a negligible amount to the file. That's why they are so efficient.

Lenny

[Adamphotoman]

I have to agree with Lenny. I used to do exactly what Bob does and it did come back to bite me in the proverbial ass. I am on my 4th generation of printers. I print mostly for artists and I have to say it is a hassle to match prints created for them with the newer ink sets. If I had not flattened it would be much easier. The newer printers do not require the same colour corrections that the older ink sets did.

[Peter De Smidt]

Besides working on improving your scans, setting a good viewing area is very helpful. I use Solux bulbs. The area is painted a neutral gray. Next, having a good monitor and color management is helpful. I have an NEC PA272W with Spectraview. It's outstanding. Spend some time getting a good grip on the difference between the viewing area and your screen. Learn how to read the numbers on a file, and print some step wedges. Get a feel for how the numbers translate into print tones. If you're doing BW, investigate the various options, including QTR. Pay special attention to sharpening.

[bob carnie]

Peter is right about the numbers.

Speaking of that , I am looking for a device that can read LAB , RGB , CMYK numbers reflective. Anyone have an idea where I could get such a device??

Right now we scan the print and see how the numbers relate input to output, but I would love a stand alone device .


Besides working on improving your scans, setting a good viewing area is very helpful. I use Solux bulbs. The area is painted a neutral gray. Next, having a good monitor and color management is helpful. I have an NEC PA272W with Spectraview. It's outstanding. Spend some time getting a good grip on the difference between the viewing area and your screen. Learn how to read the numbers on a file, and print some step wedges. Get a feel for how the numbers translate into print tones. If you're doing BW, investigate the various options, including QTR. Pay special attention to sharpening.

[Preston]

I work in a way similar to Lenny. I keep my master file intact with all adjustment layers. This file never sharpened. When I make a print, I duplicate the master file, flatten it, resize it to size I need and then save this 'targeted' file under a new name. Next, I create a copy of the background layer and apply sharpening to this layer. Just prior to sending the file to the printer, I flatten it. After printing, I go to the history palette and delete the 'Flatten Image' state and then re-save the file. (Because I am a BDOF, duplicating the master file is a fail-safe step that prevents me from saving any of these changes to the master file.)


Next, having a good monitor and color management is helpful. I have an NEC PA272W with Spectraview. It's outstanding.

Peter, I heartily agree. I recently obtained a PA272W. I already owned SpectraView for my older P221W. The PA272W and SpectraView combination is excellent. I would say that having a great monitor and a color managed workflow is essential to getting the best output of our work.

--P

[Peter De Smidt]

Bob,

I have an older Spyder Print device. Mine's an older version of: http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spyderprint/ I use it for making profiles as well as for reading values for QTR profiles. It reads in LAB for sure.... I'm on a very tight deadline right now, but I'll take a look soon if it reads in cmyk.