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sanking
9-Jul-2014, 18:18
I am about to finish an article for the web on the use of Pyrocat (all versions) as a two-bath formula. If you are interested in having your favorite film tested with this method, and are willing to contribute a few sheets to the cause, please contact me by PM. I am limiting the article to panchromatic films, ASA 25 to 400, and only those available in 4X5 sheet film. My intention is to include in the article families of characteristic curves for three development times at what I consider the optimum dilution for the specific film.

You can find a fairly thorough discussion on the use of divided Pyrocat in several previous threads on this forum. See http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/

Sandy

jbenedict
9-Jul-2014, 19:55
Safe to assume Tri-X 320, TMY100, TMY400 and Ilford FP4, HP5, Delta 100 are on the list?

sanking
9-Jul-2014, 20:02
Safe to assume Tri-X 320, TMY100, TMY400 and Ilford FP4, HP5, Delta 100 are on the list?

All of these are definitely on the list of films I would like to test!

Sandy

Philippe Grunchec
10-Jul-2014, 00:30
Foma ?

aflc
10-Jul-2014, 01:33
I would love to see delta 100 tested. I'm having some uneven development problems with 2 bath pyro (paterson tank with mod 54). I've had better results increasing agitation and changing the direction of agitation but I still get streaks and darker patches.

jp
10-Jul-2014, 06:31
aflc, you should be trying inversion rather than left/right agitation with the spinner.

sanking
10-Jul-2014, 07:12
With two-bath Pyrocat I develop sheet film in tubes or drums with rotary/continuous agitation. I don't see any uneven development with this procedure, or at least it is very rare.

I develop 120 roll film on stainless steel reels in stainless tanks. Uneven development is not common but may happen on a frame or two every two or three rolls.

To be clear, I recommend the two-bath procedure primarily for a scanning and digital output workflow, not for printing optically. This way, even if there is some slight stain or uneven mark on the film it is easy to correct in PS. Plus, we are developing to a slighter lower average gradient than would be needed for direct optical printing, purpose being to enhance sharpness and keep the appearance of grain to a minimum. I am not saying that it would not be practical for optical printing, only that I don't do it.

Sandy

aflc
10-Jul-2014, 14:00
aflc, you should be trying inversion rather than left/right agitation with the spinner.

Jp498,

I did not describe my technique adequately. I've always inverted the tanks. Now I've started doing more inversions, with a twisting motion and in different directions. Today I developed 6 sheets that came out much better.

All the best,

Alexandre Carneiro

aflc
10-Jul-2014, 14:06
With two-bath Pyrocat I develop sheet film in tubes or drums with rotary/continuous agitation. I don't see any uneven development with this procedure, or at least it is very rare.

I develop 120 roll film on stainless steel reels in stainless tanks. Uneven development is not common but may happen on a frame or two every two or three rolls.

To be clear, I recommend the two-bath procedure primarily for a scanning and digital output workflow, not for printing optically. This way, even if there is some slight stain or uneven mark on the film it is easy to correct in PS. Plus, we are developing to a slighter lower average gradient than would be needed for direct optical printing, purpose being to enhance sharpness and keep the appearance of grain to a minimum. I am not saying that it would not be practical for optical printing, only that I don't do it.

Sandy

Sandy,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'm also developing film and then scanning it. The skies in my previous sheets came out very uneven, to the point where correcting in post will be a very time consuming task. As I described above I got much better results today with more agitation (and a little bit more contrast). My remaining problem are artifacts from air bubbles (easily corrected, thankfully). The only solution where I see bubbles forming in any significant amount is in Pyrocat A solution. I will try adding a couple drops of Photoflo as you recommend in previous posts. Any other ideas?

All the best,

Alexandre Carneiro

Kirk Gittings
10-Jul-2014, 16:08
Sandy I've been experimenting with 2BPC. My issue has been quick and even agitation with BTZS tubes. When I get home I will post some pictures of something I have come up with. I've been on the road teaching and shooting for two months now and will be home tomorrow. I only shoot 4x5 and I use two sets of BTZS caps and a DIY PVC tray to hold the tubes (about $10-$15). The tray allows me to easily grab all 6 tubes without "sloshing" the chemistry about and agitate all tubes simultaneously and vigorously. I've been getting no uneven dev. that I can see, but I need to do the real test=blank wall at ZV.

Hans Berkhout
11-Jul-2014, 05:43
Kirk -a bit off topic but: for "the real test" you can place a Wallace Expo disc on your camera lens ( I snapped my WEDisc on an old filter-glass removed- and the contraption fits the lens) and now you have your white wall. , A portable white wall. Place it on ZVII or whatever Zone you like to check for (un)even development. Measure exposure first, by holding the disc over your exposure meter lens.
Especially handy in winter when it's -30 outside, you can stay indoors, just aim meter and camera to the outdoors. Any time of day, any direction available (North South E, W).

Kirk Gittings
11-Jul-2014, 08:10
Thanks. I have found that a placement around ZV rather than a higher Z shows up subtle problems better. I then scan it and apply a steep curve to exaggerate any problems.

However one does it, and I think you and Sandy would likely agree, it is really hard to access even development on a negative of a scene (except in the sky and only if the sky is blank and how much of the negative will that cover?).

alanbutler57
11-Jul-2014, 13:08
As a novice to home development I was drawn to Pyrocat HD by the shelf life (glycol) as I don't shoot that much. Thank you Sandy for continuing to expand the information base on this great system.

In reading your earlier comments about using 2 bath HD with roll film to compensate for different lighting while traveling, I became curious. How many "stops" difference within a roll would be practical? I just ordered some micophen to try "pushing" hp5 to 1600 but it would be great if 2 bath Pyro HD worked for this now that I have a Jobo to set up.

Ken Lee
11-Jul-2014, 13:42
As a novice to home development I was drawn to Pyrocat HD by the shelf life (glycol) as I don't shoot that much. Thank you Sandy for continuing to expand the information base on this great system.

In reading your earlier comments about using 2 bath HD with roll film to compensate for different lighting while traveling, I became curious. How many "stops" difference within a roll would be practical? I just ordered some micophen to try "pushing" hp5 to 1600 but it would be great if 2 bath Pyro HD worked for this now that I have a Jobo to set up.

"Pushing" film is underexposing and then over-developing an in effort to increase effective film speed. Although over-development increases effective film speed, it also increases contrast dramatically.

2-bath developers are intended to do the opposite: we can over-expose if we need to (to get sufficient shadow density) and then let the developer control the (otherwise over-exposed) highlights.

jp
11-Jul-2014, 14:32
This is sort of like an open-source software project. Sandy has created something (pyrocat hd) very useful to the photo-Internet community, explained how to make it. Documented it very well, and wants to document/test it even further for our benefit. I "gave back" or "community contributed" by sending some of two varieties of film to Sandy for this extra testing work.

If you want to give back and further enhance knowledge about this developer that has probably saved you good money, go and do likewise. I'm not trying to toot my horn, just suggesting this is something worthwhile.

I don't like film testing, so I'm glad someone with experience can do it. I like to take photos and develop it the way I normally do, or according to trusted instruction on the Internet. Not all film development instruction is accurate or trustworthy on the Internet. I think Sandy will do alright, as it is primary source material, just like documentation from Kodak. Testing various dilutions as Sandy suggests could save more money and give us more options.

sanking
11-Jul-2014, 18:06
"I don't like film testing, so I'm glad someone with experience can do it. I like to take photos and develop it the way I normally do, or according to trusted instruction on the Internet. Not all film development instruction is accurate or trustworthy on the Internet. I think Sandy will do alright, as it is primary source material, just like documentation from Kodak. Testing various dilutions as Sandy suggests could save more money and give us more options."

I appreciate your support and hope the data will be useful. Traditional and t-grain films respond very differently to two-bath development so I am sure to learn a lot myself as I do the tests. Like most people I would rather be making prints than testing film, but understanding how all of the pieces of the puzzle go together is important to me.

Sandy

alanbutler57
12-Jul-2014, 16:08
A day of "firsts" for me. My first use of my "new" Jobo and my first use of Pyrocat HD as a two part developer. 1:15 for six minutes each A and B. And WOW, I'm impressed! I'm part way through scanning a roll from my Zeiss Super Ikonta A and posting on Flikr and the results are by far the best I've gotten so far with home developed film. IMHO, the combination of divided pyrocat and this 80 year old gem puts my D300 to absolute shame.

Thanks again Sandy, I don't know you, but "you da man!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43210263@N04/

jbenedict
12-Jul-2014, 17:58
A day of "firsts" for me. My first use of my "new" Jobo and my first use of Pyrocat HD as a two part developer. 1:15 for six minutes each A and B. And WOW, I'm impressed! I'm part way through scanning a roll from my Zeiss Super Ikonta A and posting on Flikr and the results are by far the best I've gotten so far with home developed film. IMHO, the combination of divided pyrocat and this 80 year old gem puts my D300 to absolute shame.

Thanks again Sandy, I don't know you, but "you da man!"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43210263@N04/

Nice gallery! Are the Pyrocat shots the first ones I see in the archive?

What scanner did you use?

I like photographing airplanes and military stuff, too. I like the shots of the young woman in the old U.S. Navy uniform. I'm guessing those were done with the D300. You were able to change and modify the images to look as if they were taken in different with different processes. Pretty easy to do with digital.

alanbutler57
12-Jul-2014, 18:08
Nice gallery! Are the Pyrocat shots the first ones I see in the archive?

What scanner did you use?

I like photographing airplanes and military stuff, too. I like the shots of the young woman in the old U.S. Navy uniform. I'm guessing those were done with the D300. You were able to change and modify the images to look as if they were taken in different with different processes. Pretty easy to do with digital.

Thanks!
The first six (last added) are the ones with divided pyrocat (that will change tomorrow as I have another roll to go through). There are several scattered around with combined pyrocat. Yes, most of the ones of the young lady with the Navy uniform are digital, although there's one I think that is Ektar with a Petzal lens on a Speed Graphic.

Oh, and the scanner is the Epson V750. If scanners had been this good 12 years ago I might have never left film in the first place. Digital is, indeed a handy tool. Years ago I used Marshall oils to tint black and white prints, now just convert to B&W (or scan a B&W neg.) and colorize in Photoshop and Painter. We have the best of both worlds. . . if they'd stop discontinuing film stocks!

sanking
12-Jul-2014, 19:29
"Digital is, indeed a handy tool. Years ago I used Marshall oils to tint black and white prints, now just convert to B&W (or scan a B&W neg.) and colorize in Photoshop and Painter. We have the best of both worlds. . . if they'd stop discontinuing film stocks!"

Thanks for sharing your work. I see it the same as you, we have the best of both worlds in being able to scan film and then control final output with appropriate software. We need to enjoy it while we can.

Sandy

Erik Larsen
13-Jul-2014, 08:24
Thanks for doing this Sandy, the work is appreciated! If you get a wild hair maybe you could determine the correct times for normal contrast for optical printing fp4 as well as your lower contrast times for scanning. I would appreciate someone else doing the work for me on this:) I use pyrocat m, do you see any reason it would not work just as pyrocat hd? I often times find myself in high contrast lighting and a the pyrocat family of developers has become an attractive solution to tame the difficult lighting conditions. Looking forward to the article.

Greg Y
13-Jul-2014, 08:42
Sandy, I appreciate you doing this work. I'm with Eric L on this one, as FP+ is a very available & affordable film (besides it's excellent working qualities). I'm keen on the time for optical printing.
Thank you in advance

jbenedict
13-Jul-2014, 09:18
Thanks for doing this Sandy, the work is appreciated! If you get a wild hair maybe you could determine the correct times for normal contrast for optical printing fp4 as well as your lower contrast times for scanning

Send him a box of 4x5 FP4 to encourage him!

sanking
13-Jul-2014, 11:51
Thanks for doing this Sandy, the work is appreciated! If you get a wild hair maybe you could determine the correct times for normal contrast for optical printing fp4 as well as your lower contrast times for scanning. I would appreciate someone else doing the work for me on this:) I use pyrocat m, do you see any reason it would not work just as pyrocat hd? I often times find myself in high contrast lighting and a the pyrocat family of developers has become an attractive solution to tame the difficult lighting conditions. Looking forward to the article.

Erik,

Pyrocat M or -MC has very similar response in two-bath development as -HD so you should have no problem using traditional development for most of your work and two-bath for those scenes that have very high contrast. My intention is that the family of curves for any given film will have three points, one very low contrast for scanning (CI of about .45) , a second appropriate for silver printing with condenser light (CI of about .55) and a third of about CI .65). The major goal of testing is to determine the dilution and times required for a given film to reach those three points.

Sandy

sanking
13-Jul-2014, 11:52
Send him a box of 4x5 FP4 to encourage him!

I need to enlist you to promote print sales!!

Sandy

Erik Larsen
13-Jul-2014, 11:53
Perfect Sandy! I couldn't ask for more - thank you

Kirk Gittings
16-Jul-2014, 09:58
So for anyone that is interested that uses BTZS tubes. Getting that second bath quickly and evenly distributed can be a problem if you are trying to do all 6 tubes as they are awkward to hold. So this is what I put together and it works well. I use it with two sets of BTZS caps filled and ready to go. After the first bath run normally spinning the tubes in the water bath tray, I turn off the lights remove the first bath cap and carefully screw the tube into the second bath cap and then place it carefully into the tray. I say carefully as you want to avoid movements that would splash the chemistry around and start chemical action on the bottom edge of the film in the tube. Then I simply pick it up carefully with my hand on the bottom, hit the timer, put my other hand over the top and shake it up and down. It gives very even development with two bath development which has been an issue for me with BTZS tubes..

To fit 4x5 BTZS tubes, it is made from 6-1 1/2" PVC couplings super glued together with the "Stops" at bottom being a 1/4" cut on a table saw from a scrap piece of 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe (the thick pipe) itself glued with PVC glue. You need to rasp the ridge out of the center of the coupling. I used a course half round file and took a few minutes-a round rasp would probably be quickest. The green glue was what I had on hand but it helps show the construction. It cost me maybe $15 and took about 1/2 an hour. When the whole thing set and dried I placed it on a sheet of 80 or 120 sand paper and squirreled it around till the bottom was perfectly flat. I also use it with normal PCHD to hold the tubes and do the initial agitation before dumping them in the water bath. All in all a handy and cheap DIY item.

118366118367

Alan Curtis
16-Jul-2014, 11:03
Thanks Kirk
Great idea and design, I'm making one this afternoon.
Alan

Kirk Gittings
16-Jul-2014, 11:06
Thanks. One thing I forgot to mention. You need to rasp the ridge out of the center of the coupling. I used a course half round file and took a few minutes. A round rasp would probably be quickest.

sanking
16-Jul-2014, 19:47
Kirk,

Great idea, and thanks for sharing. I am really pleased to hear that you are getting even development with this method. How long do you agitate before dumping the tubes in the water?

Sandy

Kirk Gittings
16-Jul-2014, 19:51
Thanks, just about 10-15 seconds. That first shake I think is critical!

Corran
16-Jul-2014, 21:30
Cool.

I've tried 2-bath Pyrocat several times with TMX, and could never get any kind of shadow density, even rating the film at 25. Interested to see what an "official" report on the practice would say. Might give PC a whirl again but frankly my results were never good even with normal development procedures on TMX (TMY was better but I prefer TMX).

alanbutler57
18-Jul-2014, 07:09
Here is an image from the first two rolls of 645 I used this system with that shows how it handles a difficult situation. The only operation performed was image size reduction via "Bicubic Sharper". Previewing the Tiff from the V750 scanner with Adobe Camera Raw indicates a small area of blown highlights under the second window from the left (over the rounded porch), on the 2nd floor.

I'm no judge of shadow detail needed for traditional printing as I'm always scan. I hope this gives some indications of the breadth of coverage. I don't recall the metering exactly but think I metered the house and opened up 2 stops. Since I lost my Pentax spot meter I've been using a light meter app on my iphone. The photo was taken with a Zeiss Super Ikonta A.

118470

sanking
18-Jul-2014, 07:45
Cool.

I've tried 2-bath Pyrocat several times with TMX, and could never get any kind of shadow density, even rating the film at 25. Interested to see what an "official" report on the practice would say. Might give PC a whirl again but frankly my results were never good even with normal development procedures on TMX (TMY was better but I prefer TMX).

Pyrocat-HD when used with normal one-solution development is a general purpose developer with similar speed rating to D76, HC-110, Rodinal, etc. If you don't get any shadow density with this developer and TMX (when metering correctly) the reason could be that the solution is old and has lost energy. The stock solutions have good shelf life, but in partially opened bottles Stock A will begin to lose energy after 6-9 months. If you try Pyrocat again I would recommend that you buy the developer with Stock A mixed in glycol. Or mix your own. See mixing directions on the Pyrocat web site. http://pyrocat-hd.com/

With two-bath Pyrocat TMY you will need a more concentrated solution to reach a similar average gradient than with most other films. For example, my tests indicate that with a development time of 3+3 you need a working dilution of 1+15 for TMY to get the same average gradient you get with TMX at 3+3 and 1+20.

Sandy

Domingo A. Siliceo
22-Jul-2014, 11:32
Sandy, is the Adox CHS 100 II film included in your list to test?

sanking
22-Jul-2014, 20:17
Sandy, is the Adox CHS 100 II film included in your list to test?


I have the following sheet films for testing, which I will do with rotary processing.

Tri-X 320
TMY
Tmax 100
FP4
HP5
Arista 400 (contemporary version of Arista)

Will be happy to test, and report the data, of any other sheet films that others may contribute to the project.

Sandy

angusparker
22-Jul-2014, 21:46
Sandy, is the Adox CHS 100 II film included in your list to test?

+1

sanking
30-Jul-2014, 18:42
A couple of comments.

First, I hope to wrap up my testing for the two-bath Pyrocat project this week. Thanks to those who sent me film to test.

Second, to Steve Sherman. Thanks for the film, and for the IQ test you devised for me to figure out the type of film, and whether it was exposed or not, and the EV at which it was exposed. Devious test. I seem to have passed the test, at least in part, because I got three images from the exposed HP5 film you sent. You can figure out from the negatives and your printing method whether or not this method of development could be of use to you.

Sandy