Vintage Wide Angle for 4x5

[Brassai]

I'm needing a wide angle lens to round out my selection for the upcomming threshing bee season. I'm looking for something about 90-100mm to use on my 4x5. I'm trying hard to stay between 1900 and 1930 vintage, and do want a lens in shutter. So far, I've only found one lens that meets my criteria. I know wide angles didn't seem to get going until the 1930s, but didn't at least Kodak have something by the 1920s? Lens to be used on a Chamonix 045n, and then something like an Agfa/Ansco or Gundlach Korona tailboard when I can find one.

[Dan Fromm]

90/14 Berthiot Perigraphe. Not in shutter, as requested, but can easily be bodged into an Ilex #3. Same goes for the 75 mm, which is wider than you say you want.

Wide angle Dagor, f/8 or f/9. Fits the time period and some are available in shutter. Same goes for some, not all Protars. Look in old Zeiss catalogs on www.cameraeccentric.com to get an idea of what to look for.


I know wide angles didn't seem to get going until the 1930s

You are very silly.


didn't at least Kodak have something by the 1920s?

You are even sillier than I thought. Buy a copy of A Lens Collector's Vade Mecum from http://www.antiquecameras.net/ and study it. After you've learned more you'll be less silly.

[Brassai]

It is fun to be silly on a Saturday. I'm scouring ebay for either a Dagor or a Protar. Looks like there's also a Wollensak that might fit the bill. I've often thought their lenses are often way under rated, but then again I'm silly.

[Leszek Vogt]

Hmm, I could be silly suggesting this, but the 80mm Wide Field (Kodak) could work for you....it will likely require a recessed board (?). I have no idea when those were made...and my is in shutter.

Les

[Dan Fromm]

Les, I have an extremely silly 80/6.3 WF Ektar. Its a fine lens for 2x3, even for 6x12 with no movements, but not fine at all for 4x5.

Re Dagors, Brassai, don't get too light headed. On the one hand, a 90 mm lens that covers a 150 mm circle has to cover 80 degrees and Goerz propaganda says that f/6.8 Dagors cover 85 degrees. On the other, there have been acrimonious discussions here and elsewhere about Dagors' coverage. Its far from clear that they meet Goerz' claim. f/8 or f/9 Wide Angle Dagors cover considerable larger angles than f/6.8ers, unfortunately seem to have become expensive cult objects. I have a 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor that might be said to cover 2x3. Might be said because detail in the very corners seems to be better than ok but the corners are darker than they should be due to mechanical vignetting. I don't think Zeiss made the lens to be used on 6x9 (2x3 in metric). I use a 47/5.6 SA, not the 45/9.

Messers Perez and Thalmann published tests of a number of lenses, including some old blunderbusses, at http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/index1.html . Brassai, you might want to look at them, keeping the possibility of operator errors and variations between examples of a lens, especially beat up old ones, in mind.

[jnantz]

hi brassai:

have you looked at old folding /or box cameras from the time period you are looking into ?
most won't but once in a blue moon you might find one that has a large negative format and it might be what you are looking for ..

i have harvested lenses ( some shutter'd, some not ) off of cheap-stuff and they have covered / illuminated
well enough that i didn't have troubles. but i'm not the kind person
who searches for perfection, so i'm not sure if that is an option for you, but its always
been an option for me ( i sometimes even use one of these lenses as an enlarger lens ) --- > cheap-fun.

good luck !
john

[Leszek Vogt]

[QUOTE=Dan Fromm;1149047]Les, I have an extremely silly 80/6.3 WF Ektar. Its a fine lens for 2x3, even for 6x12 with no movements, but not fine at all for 4x5.

Dan, I feel embarrassed (+ silly) and spreading wrong info to boot. I presume I got bamboozled, since the person that sold me claimed, that it should accommodate 4x5....and I did ask.
I guess I'll be looking for a WA lens. Oy!

Les

[Dan Fromm]

Les, its a common misconception. So is the idea that eBay sellers make honest coverage claims.

The typical 4/4 double Gauss wide angle is claimed to cover around 100 degrees stopped well down. TTH Cooke Ser. VIIb and Meyer Weitwinkel Aristostigmat, for example. EKCo claimed 80 degrees for WF Ektars, that's why Wide Field, not Extreme Wide Angle or even Wide
Angle, and seems to have enforced the limit with field stops. Wollensak claimed 84 - 88 degrees for their f/6.8 wide angles and the consensus is that the lenses don't quite meet the claim.

[Robert Opheim]

I have used a 3 5/8 inch WA f/8 Dagor (american) (92mm) for years (since 1980 or so) from the mid to late 1930's #759--- on 4x5 used on 3 different cameras. I did need to use a recessed board on my graflex view II, and on a Omega View Camera I had, I now use a Tecknikardan with a bag bellows so I don't need a recessed board. There isn't much extra lens coverage on 4x5 if you are shooting at infinity. More recently I have purchased a 4 3/8 inch WA f/8 Dagor (112mm) the coverage is better and has the "dagor" look. There are a number of other wonderful lenses: Hugo Meyer Weitwinkel (I have a 1920's-1930's 160mm - (this is supposed to be a double gauss type wide angle). There are older Schneider angulons, protars, Kodak WF Ektars, Wollensak wide field lenses etc. The question I would ask is how much camera movements do you use? need?, and how modern or old of a shutter can you deal with? My oldest lenses are in: betax, and compur shutters, and a barrel lens with a LUC type shutter.

[Jody_S]

Didn't Wollensak make their f12.5 Extreme Wide Angle in a 4x5 size? Mine is the 5x7, but I thought I'd seen a 4x5 somewhere. Main advantage is that they fit in a cheap shutter, and they're not that hard to find.

I have a much older, early Wray f16 4x5 wide angle, tiny little lens but unfortunately not a very good performer. And, no easy shutter solution (I used it with a Series VI adapter and a front-mounted LUC shutter). The Wolly Ex-WA is decent and cheap, those 2 factors being my personal criteria.

You could probably make do with a 5x7 Protar V (don't know the focal length off-hand), but you'll have to deal with the Volute shutter, and they're over-priced. On the plus side, if you want a vintage look, the Volute is a beautiful shutter.

[Brassai]

The question I would ask is how much camera movements do you use? need?, and how modern or old of a shutter can you deal with? My oldest lenses are in: betax, and compur shutters, and a barrel lens with a LUC type shutter.

My favorite shutter is the Volute. I have two lenses in Volute now, my favorite being a 5 inch Velostigmat c.1908. I also love compound shutters. The perfect lens would be something like 90-100mm, no slower (for focussing) than f8, and vintage 1910-1920. I don't think of "image quaity" in the usual way. I'm after a more vintage look to begin with. Otherwise, I'd just shoot my 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon.

[Robert Opheim]

Have you looked through the old catalogs at: "camera eccentric info" this information is very valuable. I am not sure how many wide angles were f/8 or f/9 in the 1920's - you would need to do some research.

[Brassai]

Some more research led me to an Aristostigmat. Some of those were pretty wide--8cm, 9cm. They came in Ibsor shutters, which would date them between 1913 and 1932. So, any have any experience with them? The price is right on them. Being German made, they should be decent quality.

[Brassai]

I saw a very nice Dagor 3 5/8 in Compound from around 1922 on ebay. It looked like a winner except it was $775 and from GoKevin. I think he's an honest seller from what I've read, but he'd never take $600 I'm sure. So, I just bought an odd duck. It's a Hugo Meyer Aristostigmat 10cm f9 wide angle. Supposedly they give a similar look to a Dagor, and I got it for $200. It's in Ibsor shutter, which makes me a little nervous, but for $200 I'll give it a shot. The serial number is 402xxx but I can't find anything on the web to date it. I did find that Ibsors were made from about 1926 to 1935, and the lens is definitely uncoated. So, maybe it's from the late 20s. This should work for me, and I can always resell and buy something else later. Ebay is sort of like a library--I can check something out for awhile and then check it back in and try something else if I want.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I saw a very nice Dagor 3 5/8 in Compound from around 1922 on ebay. It looked like a winner except it was $775 and from GoKevin. [...]

A rule of thumb for GoKevin is that the item is 200% overpriced. Offer him half. I'm sure he is accustomed to such.
.

[John Kasaian]

IIRC, Angulons started rolling out of the Schneider factory in 1930.

[jesse]

A rule of thumb for GoKevin is that the item is 200% overpriced. Offer him half. I'm sure he is accustomed to such.
.

Oh yes, GoKevin is always overpriced, I told him face to face last week in Hong Kong, haha.

[IanG]

I picked up a Hugo Meyer Wide Angle Aristostigmat in the last couple of years the f9 version has more coverage than the later f6.3. They were made from the early 1920's, the 3¼" f9 covers 10x15cm at full aperture, the f9 4" half plate, the f6.3 3¼" covers Quarter plate while the f6.3 4" covers 6x4".

My own Meyer WA lens is an f9 5¼" so actually covers whole plate 6½x8½" with full rise or fall, it's in a dial-set Compur. They can be found occasionally on Ebay and because they aren't as well known as Anglons tend to be very reasonable prices.

Ian

[Brassai]

My thinking about GoKevin is he's basically a compulsive collector, but will sell something if you offer a ton of money. My guess is he has told his wife, "Yes honey, I have too much stuff. Look, I'll put a bunch of it on ebay." And of course at 200% mark up, he then gets to keep it. ;)

[jesse]

GoKevin said that he has stock over ten thousand lenses!

[Brassai]

GoKevin said that he has stock over ten thousand lenses!


No wonder he says he takes over week to ship any purchases. Probably takes him that long to find it! :D

[Robert Opheim]

Wow 10,000 lenses - If you shot with one every day it would take over 27 years to go thru them all!

[Jac@stafford.net]

GoKevin said that he has stock over ten thousand lenses!

Half of them worth 25% what he wants for them. The rest worth 50%. He is on my ignore list, so are about twenty more.

[Brassai]

Three years I saw him list a Cocarette Luxus (ICA 6x9 folder) that I was just drooling over! He wanted $660 for it, and that just seemed even to me to be way over the top. So, I patiently checked ebay for about a year. My patience paid off and I snagged another one just as nice for about fifty bucks--less than a tenth of what GoKevin is asking. I say "is," because after three years it has never sold.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Cocarette-Luxus-with-10-5-Tessar-1013494-/260964404251?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3cc2b0cc1b

Kent in SD