Best advice for loft darkroom HVAC filtration and humidity control new system.

[Tin Can]

I better check the knowledge base.

My entire loft is my darkroom and I am shopping for new HVAC, both GFA and central AC. I want better air filtration and humidity control. Mostly adding humidity in winter. Summer is OK and I don't need a dehumidifier. Currently my Walgreens tabletop steam humidifier is a horrible thing. Even if I use it in the bathroom, the whole space gets coated in some sort of powder. Not good.

My father had Honeywell Electrostatic power air filters since the 60's. His houses had nearly no dust. I could hear the thing zapping dust. His humidifiers were sloppy conveyor belt types. Always a problem.

Seems many people do not like Electrostatic for whatever reason. My Lennox salesman did not offer one. He suggested Merv 16 20x25x5" passive filter and an APCO UV light unit with titanium dioxide Matrix.

He also sells April Air humidifiers for twice the price of Amazon. I can install the APCO, or Honeywell UV light myself with the April Air and save $1000 for film!

Any advice?

[HMG]

We built in 2008. My darkroom is small and, rightly or wrongly, was not a big factor in HVAC decisions.

We did not go with an electrostatic filter due to noise and expense. We do have a somewhat high MERV filter (ours is a 4" Merv 9) and we still get a fair amount of dust inside on flat surfaces. I think to be effective, you need to run your fan constantly. Does the Apco UV system do anything for dust or just "kill" stuff that you're probably immune to anyway?

To me, humidifiers are the crocodiles of HVAC; a throwback to an earlier time. Not a lot of technology here. Basically, you either spray a fine mist of water into an air flow or flow air around a water saturated membrane or filter. I've heard the spray version can allow water to collect underneath; leading to mold and/or corrosion. So essentially what you have is a humidistat, a valve, and a filter. Our humidistat is in the cold air return; I was told that was the best location.

It will be heavily dependent on water quality. Even with our softened water, I need to clean our twice a season (vinegar is your friend).

If he's selling AND installing the humidifier for twice the purchase price at Amazon, I think that's fair. You have to cut holes for humidstat and duct in cold air return, for the humidifier in the main duct, run water, and wire so that it only runs when fan is on. Not difficult stuff, but lots of little stuff.

[Tin Can]

Thanks for your input. I always prefer DIY and am seriously considering installing my own HVAC. Markup with installation is about 100%, which is fair and less than other things.

I may even get a HVAC coolant license so I am legal, despite servicing my own R22 and R12 systems for 30 years. Big tanks of both, purchased legally, when that was possible, last for decades in single home usage.

I also may take the easy way out and have it all done, as the company offers a 15 year warranty.

I am just trying to explore all options. Costco gave me an insanely high estimate, compared to the big player in HVAC in Chicago. Same products.

Actually I am more price shocked by a new high efficiency water heater. As my building is all high efficiency, I have to replace with same to conform to the PVC intake and exhaust piping.


We built in 2008. My darkroom is small and, rightly or wrongly, was not a big factor in HVAC decisions.

We did not go with an electrostatic filter due to noise and expense. We do have a somewhat high MERV filter (ours is a 4" Merv 9) and we still get a fair amount of dust inside on flat surfaces. I think to be effective, you need to run your fan constantly. Does the Apco UV system do anything for dust or just "kill" stuff that you're probably immune to anyway?

To me, humidifiers are the crocodiles of HVAC; a throwback to an earlier time. Not a lot of technology here. Basically, you either spray a fine mist of water into an air flow or flow air around a water saturated membrane or filter. I've heard the spray version can allow water to collect underneath; leading to mold and/or corrosion. So essentially what you have is a humidistat, a valve, and a filter. Our humidistat is in the cold air return; I was told that was the best location.

It will be heavily dependent on water quality. Even with our softened water, I need to clean our twice a season (vinegar is your friend).

If he's selling AND installing the humidifier for twice the purchase price at Amazon, I think that's fair. You have to cut holes for humidstat and duct in cold air return, for the humidifier in the main duct, run water, and wire so that it only runs when fan is on. Not difficult stuff, but lots of little stuff.

[HMG]

Here's (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-08/beijing-s-diy-clean-air-movement-if-you-can-t-buy-an-expensive-air-filter-build-one) your filtration solution. Read the part about it's comparison to expensive units before you laugh.

I'm becoming more and more a fan of low tech. Where I am, we use the air conditioner rarely (actually, it's an air source heat pump so is used in winter). But with son, DIL, and (most important) grandkids coming in a week, I thought I'd check it out. Turned the thermostat down, set to "cool", and went to run a bunch of errands. Come back a few hours later and it's 92 inside - it was 79 when I left. My initial thought was fire - but no smoke and no alarm. Turns out the "cool" setting was turning on the furnace. Powered it all down and restarted; same thing. So must be an electronic glitch somewhere.

I think I can jumper the thermostat wires for cooling and isolate whether the issue is in the thermostat (unlikely) or furnace controls.

[Tin Can]

Thanks for the tip. I had been using an IQ on a timer, but gave it to my daughter as I thought she needed it more. They bought the wrong house... She cannot breath in their basement. I pray she survives it.

I currently have a Honeywell HEPA freestanding canister fan filter. It really is just like the Chinese DIY thing. Which is a genius idea.

The IQ I got for nothing as a former tenant left it behind, but it's 3 filters sure are expensive. I'm not buying a new one of those. It is quiet.

I think I am going to install a MERV 16 passive filter on the HVAC system and I will have the option of continuous low speed fan or cycling fan. It really depends how noisy the new low speed furnace fan is.

My condo is very highly insulated, I had to find some extra makeup air when I put the suction system over the darkroom sinks. I poked a hole in a interior wall behind my bath and what do you know, fresh air! I was surprised but also glad to find it. Obviously the condo conversion of a 100 year old machine shop was not done entirely correctly and we have a sealed flat roof. The air smells fresh and is very high flow when I get all my suction going. I will filter that also.

I'll also put in a UV light. Why not!

And now I'm shopping for a small HEPA vac. This looks and is rated good. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C44NB1A/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ACWJSZV6XSODE

This part of Chicago has far dirtier air than my former loft, which was closer to the Loop. It appears Western ave bus and truck traffic is really much sootier than a less traveled location. This summer is particularly nasty as my street was reduced to a 100 year old concrete dust unpaved road for 6 months while we construct Chicago's High Line. http://the606.org/ We had concrete dust storms, who knows what's in that dust.

I may be going to Stillwater in August and I was born in Minneapolis. We left that beautiful state when I was 11. I have fond memories of Minnesota. A few years ago I revisited Hwy 61 by motorcycle.






Here's (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-08/beijing-s-diy-clean-air-movement-if-you-can-t-buy-an-expensive-air-filter-build-one) your filtration solution. Read the part about it's comparison to expensive units before you laugh.

I'm becoming more and more a fan of low tech. Where I am, we use the air conditioner rarely (actually, it's an air source heat pump so is used in winter). But with son, DIL, and (most important) grandkids coming in a week, I thought I'd check it out. Turned the thermostat down, set to "cool", and went to run a bunch of errands. Come back a few hours later and it's 92 inside - it was 79 when I left. My initial thought was fire - but no smoke and no alarm. Turns out the "cool" setting was turning on the furnace. Powered it all down and restarted; same thing. So must be an electronic glitch somewhere.

I think I can jumper the thermostat wires for cooling and isolate whether the issue is in the thermostat (unlikely) or furnace controls.

[ic-racer]

My entire loft is my darkroom

My entire basement is the darkroom, with no wall between my office and the darkroom (midwest USA).

Winter Humidification: Built-in April-air humdifier (but it seems to only produce about a 3 to 5% increase in the house, even with fresh evaporative pad and new nozzle and filter).
Summer De Humidification: If using a whole-house air-conditioner for de-humidification in the summer realize that if the unit is in the same room as the darkroom, when the coils drip and dry off, the water can evaporate back into the room air in which the machine is in! Potential for a lot of variability in machine design with respect to this.
Cheap stand-alone dehumidifiers only last a few years due to excellent planned-failure design. I got the more expensive Aprilair 1710 because spare parts are available and the service manual is available as a pdf online. Still working after 4 years ( http://www.discountfurnacefilter.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/p/aprilaire1710a_1.jpg)
Air filter: the whole-house pleated type is still not enough to keep a darkroom dust free. I actually have both a Delta electrostatic unit (really a misnomer because the 'electrostatic' part is just a fancy name for their replaceable pleated filter that has some charged molecules in it. There is no electrical connection to the filter element) and a Honeywell HEPA filter. The problem with the Honeywell unit is that 15 feet from the filter nothing is happening. If the air is not circulating around the room to the cleaner, the air does not get filtered. When the Delta unit is blowing, you feel it all over the darkroom.

[wclark5179]

I use a Holmes humidifier that has a circular wick to absorb the water with a fan that fits in a case that blows air with the center part of the wick. I've found the humidifiers that operate with an ultra sound device put out minerals from the water that coat everywhere. The wick method works better for me.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I sure do not like the mineral deposits. Here they resemble abrasive dust.

Do you mean this unit?

Looks good to me. And fairly cheap.


http://www.holmesproducts.com/humidifiers/HM3656-U.html#kwid=1a81291c41584eff9c1454f693a4cea1&gclid=CJyc782elr8CFVE1aQod8W4AlQ&start=12



I use a Holmes humidifier that has a circular wick to absorb the water with a fan that fits in a case that blows air with the center part of the wick. I've found the humidifiers that operate with an ultra sound device put out minerals from the water that coat everywhere. The wick method works better for me.

[wclark5179]

Mine is older but the wick looks like mine.

Yes, this is much better than the ultrasonic variety.

To be honest, I have never had a darkroom until last fall. I always set up, using a card table for the enlarger, in a bathroom or closet. Now I have my very first darkroom and I have been making prints for 50 plus years!

I don't have any special filter for the furnace. It takes a 16x25 by 1" filter that I replace every 3 months.

Yes, cheap is great!

Hope this helps you!

[Tin Can]

It sure does help! This is the best idea I have gotten. I'm not doing this just for the darkroom, but for my overall living space. I live in a loft, that is all dark for doing darkroom stuff and shooting portraits. I sleep in the corner. Most women call it a superb 'man cave'.

I hate that term, but what can I do!

I only really need humidification for about 4 months here in Chicago.

Thanks!


Mine is older but the wick looks like mine.

Yes, this is much better than the ultrasonic variety.

To be honest, I have never had a darkroom until last fall. I always set up, using a card table for the enlarger, in a bathroom or closet. Now I have my very first darkroom and I have been making prints for 50 plus years!

I don't have any special filter for the furnace. It takes a 16x25 by 1" filter that I replace every 3 months.

Yes, cheap is great!

Hope this helps you!

[Luis-F-S]

Randy, my darkroom is inside my garage that has central air/heat. As my garage is very dusty, I use a double filter in the A/C airhandler, and the duct that cools the darkroom, discharges into a box with another air filter. That way any dust that gets past the A/C filters will hopefully be filtered before it gets inside the darkroom. The Darkroom has two exhaust fans and two vents at the opposite wall with a filtered register into the room. Both vents are in the same 16" space between the wall studs and on the opposite side of the wall (the garage side) there is a register with a filter. That way, when the exhausts are on, any air sucked directly into the darkroom must first pass through a filter. In Louisiana, humidifying is just not an issue. Hope this helps. L

Added some photos: The first is the filtered inlet into the darkroom between the two LPL's. The second and third have captions.

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[Tin Can]

Thanks Luis and I have been to Louisiana. I cannot take the humidity.

I am going to filter my make-up air as I have exhaust fans over the sinks, and my recycled HVAC air. As you, I will need to improvise because nobody gets the requirements we have.

I just had my place appraised and the appraiser walked in and said, 'Is that your kitchen?' pointing to my 3 stainless sinks! Then he wanted to know if it was the living room. I showed him my modern ADA bath and full kitchen, complete with 'bedroom' which is a berth on a storage rack. I can't wait to see what his value of my unusual space is. He seemed to not notice that I had no windows. It's an art loft in an artist only condo building. C'est la vie.




Randy, my darkroom is inside my garage that has central air/heat. As my garage is very dusty, I use a double filter in the A/C airhandler, and the duct that cools the darkroom, discharges into a box with another air filter. That way any dust that gets past the A/C filters will hopefully be filtered before it gets inside the darkroom. The Darkroom has two exhaust fans and two vents at the opposite wall with a filtered register into the room. Both vents are in the same 16" space between the wall studs and on the opposite side of the wall (the garage side) there is a register with a filter. That way, when the exhausts are on, any air sucked directly into the darkroom must first pass through a filter. In Louisiana, humidifying is just not an issue. Hope this helps. L

[Luis-F-S]

deleted: duplicate

[polyglot]

If you're redoing a whole-building HVAC and your space is high-efficiency (well insulated and air-sealed), then you should look seriously at a heat-recovery unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation). Basically it's an air-to-air heat exchanger so that transfers heat between your inlet air and exhaust air; say it's cold outside and you're running the heater. Every bit of cold air you suck in and hot air you pump out is wasted energy; the heat exchanger transfers the heat from your exhaust stream into your supply stream, so that your heater doesn't need to supply as much heat. Works the same in summer; heat transfers from the fresh-air stream into the exhaust stream so that your aircon doesn't have to work as hard. Here's an example product (http://www.xetexinc.com/flat_plate_crossflow).

If you live somewhere tropical, a heat-exchanger is only half a solution because most of the energy in your air inlet is not thermal, but is latent heat in the water vapour. Assuming you're running an aircon, every bit of water vapor your building inhales is additional load for the aircon because it must soak up all the energy of condensation before it can cool the air. To solve that, you want a rotary enthalpy (total energy) transfer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation) thingamajig, for example (http://www.xetexinc.com/airotor_series_r). They will allow your building to inhale a continuous stream of fresh air, but transfer the heat AND humidity to your exhaust stream and thereby reduce the total load on your aircon. That is NOT a cheap device, but if you live somewhere with high humidity then it will pay off rapidly: you can install a smaller/cheaper aircon and it will use a lot less power. That might matter more to those of us in AU paying 40c/kWh (thanks to corrupt distribution utilities) whereas I understand you yanks still pay an average of 12c/kWh.

I have no relationship with the company whose products I've linked to, I haven't even used them and don't advocate for that brand in particular. However, their website does have really good explanations of how these things work and the broader context of how they're sized and installed.

If your building leaks lots of air, all this stuff is kind of pointless. Good insulation and sealing is far more important than any mechanical gizmo you might think of. A whole pile more interesting reading: Passivhaus (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=passivhaus). Mostly good only if you're building (add 10% to the cost of your house, that will pay off in energy bills within ~5 years, and keep paying for the whole building's life), but there are a lot of tips and techniques there that are useful for renovation and HVAC design.

Edit: obviously you want an exhaust fan in the chemical processing area. I assume you've got that figured out though.

Edit2: this might not apply to you since I assume you have a big open-plan loft, but others looking at HVAC overhauls might want to know of a thing called a "warm air transfer kit". Basically it pumps hot air from a main room to outlying rooms (bedrooms) through an insulated duct in the ceiliing. We have one gas heater in the lounge (console style); if we turn on the transfer fans then the whole house gets warm. It's like fake (and super-cheap) central-air with no central furnace, it just makes use of your existing traditional heater (e.g. wood stove, gas heater console, etc) and spreads the warmth around.

[Tin Can]

I have looked into the air exchange systems. My trouble is finding a hole to use for it. My condo board does not want anymore holes. I had to fight to get a 6" diameter hole in one glass block for my sink vent. This was a too tight a loft that is very highly insulated, my south wall has 13 inches of blown in. and the other walls and ceiling are also overdone. I am happy I found tempered makeup air from an interior wall. Not too hot, not too cold.

As you point out heat exchangers are very good for high humidity locations. Chicago has more cold than hot air. (small joke about the windy city)

But, thanks for your informative post.

[KennyGarcia]

Hi!
I also want to purchase a good brand of dehumidifier. Can you please give me your best advice for this one. :D

Thank you in advance.