Limitations or weaknesses in 510 Pyro

[swmcl]

Hi,

I'd like to ask about any issues to do with 510 Pyro now that the photographic community has been able to use it for some time. Things like "don't use it for rotary processing at 1:100" or "it is a bit unpredictable at high dilutions on T-grained films" or "make sure you use a minimum of 5ml of stock solution" etc, etc.

Obviously, those with repeated experience are most qualified to speak to this. I'm asking to focus on 510 Pyro specifically. I'm hoping to not get involved in comparisons with other developers. This is a genuine attempt to collate findings I guess. No need to be defensive; I'd like to not hide issues but be honest about things please.

I guess if there are no responses then we've found the perfect developer! :-)

Cheers,

Steve

ps. Why is there a smiley in the title?!?!

[muihlinn]

Never had any issue, been using it for several years now but times out there looks like too short to me. Rotation, stand, manual agitation worked well. Subjectively speaking, I'd use catechol for 135mm but 510 also worked ok with it

[muihlinn]

Oh, never tried T grain with it

[Regular Rod]

Hi,

I'd like to ask about any issues to do with 510 Pyro now that the photographic community has been able to use it for some time. Things like "don't use it for rotary processing at 1:100" or "it is a bit unpredictable at high dilutions on T-grained films" or "make sure you use a minimum of 5ml of stock solution" etc, etc.

Obviously, those with repeated experience are most qualified to speak to this. I'm asking to focus on 510 Pyro specifically. I'm hoping to not get involved in comparisons with other developers. This is a genuine attempt to collate findings I guess. No need to be defensive; I'd like to not hide issues but be honest about things please.

I guess if there are no responses then we've found the perfect developer! :-)

Cheers,

Steve

ps. Why is there a smiley in the title?!?!

There are no weaknesses as far as I'm concerned. I like it for semi-stand development and the way it compensates when developing roll films with a mix of subjects and lighting conditions. The tonal range is remarkably good and it doesn't clump the grain up, which for my pictures wouldn't be appropriate (might be different if I started portraits of Jazz musicians performing in night clubs)...

It seems to keep for ever and needs no change to time and temperature even when it has turned almost black at the bottom of the bottle. If it wasn't for OBSIDIAN AQUA, which I like when I want extra sharpness but still with fine grain, I'd use nothing else.
;)
RR

[mikoyan]

Hello
The agitation scheme has to be "minimal" to avoid too fast oxidation, or fog can be a bit high.
Very toxic.

[swmcl]

Thanks guys,

I received a 'special order' of 510 Pyro yesterday and I made a new film order too so when that gets in I'll give it a go. I do admit that different developers will give a different 'look' but this thread was to look at the mechanics of using this developer in particular and you've answered that well for me. I probably plan to use it with a slow hand rotation in various Jobo tanks but I will probably try some semi-stand as well looking for the tanning and edge effects that everyone speaks about. Although I'm not in a position to fully understand or evaluate my Pyrocat-HD negatives they certainly don't look too stained so I'm hoping to see something a bit different with 510 Pyro.

I saw a post somewhere out there where someone claimed to have found a 'bug' with the developer and I was hoping to see a gotcha or two come up in this thread. It is mighty hard to find things a second time on the internet especially when it doesn't involve a specific search phrase or term.

I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Jay for his work with this developer and for his extremely polite and helpful responses to my queries over the past few weeks. It is very easy to be a pig when communicating digitally and Jay has been very much a delightful person to deal with.

It occurs to me that B&W film developers are an evolving technology and Jay's achievement here is, it seems, a significant step forward in my view. If anyone else has any further comments I'd appreciate if they'd speak about them here.

Cheers all

[swmcl]

I haven't opened the new containers yet but it occurs to me that the slightly thick stock solution might be somewhat difficult to mete out in small quantities. I use a syringe and some small diameter clear PVC tubing with PyroCat-HD...

[muihlinn]

Hello
The agitation scheme has to be "minimal" to avoid too fast oxidation, or fog can be a bit high.
Very toxic.

I never got too fast oxidation with this developer. Stain and fog are even from run to run, even with a rotary jobo set at 24C. Ascorbic acid keeps it from it pretty well, sometimes too well ;)

On toxicity, as long as you don't sip it, or fancy a dip, I won't say it's much worser than most developers.

[muihlinn]

I'm not in a position to fully understand or evaluate my Pyrocat-HD negatives they certainly don't look too stained so I'm hoping to see something a bit different with 510


Catechol stain is weak, but also renders beautiful, crisp negatives, usually easy to print. Pyrogallol stain is much heavier

[muihlinn]

I haven't opened the new containers yet but it occurs to me that the slightly thick stock solution might be somewhat difficult to mete out in small quantities. I use a syringe and some small diameter clear PVC tubing with PyroCat-HD...

Heat it slightly and it will become more fluid. Watch the flashpoint of Tea, it can end in a real mess. For measruring I ended turning down syringes, pipes, etc. and just drop the syrup slowly in a 25 ml graduate. 5 or 10 ml, then add water, dilute and mix with the rest of water. Refill until the graduate doesn't show traces of undissolved syrup. IMHO it's faster and cleaner.

[swmcl]

I thought I'd look around as my curiosity was piqued ...

Get this! A Dispensette III Digital Bottletop Dispenser 0.2 to 2 mL costs ... ~928 Aussie dollars !!! (http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Dispensette_III_Digital_Bottletop_Dispenser_0_2_to_2_mL/EW-07878-02)

These dispensers are accurate and do not react with acids and bases. I'm sure they'd do a great job but for the price. WOW!

I wonder if there is a more financially attractive solution...

My 510 Pyro is in plastic containers. I guess I could sit the container in hot water...

[Regular Rod]

I haven't opened the new containers yet but it occurs to me that the slightly thick stock solution might be somewhat difficult to mete out in small quantities. I use a syringe and some small diameter clear PVC tubing with PyroCat-HD...

No it's dead easy to get exact quantities, Jay uses a pipette, but I've found a 10 ml syringe to be perfectly good for the job. I use it to suck out 5 ml of stock solution and dispense that into 200 to 300 ml of tap water and then drop the syringe into the sink for washing and add enough tap water to the working solution to make it up to 500 ml. This will easily process 1 sheet of 8x10, or 4 sheets of 4x5, or a roll of 120.

RR

[swmcl]

Yes, I'm looking at pipettes - the measuring type not the transfer type. So they will work at sucking up the thicker liquid (assuming I buy a bulb for the purposes)...?

[Regular Rod]

Yes, I'm looking at pipettes - the measuring type not the transfer type. So they will work at sucking up the thicker liquid (assuming I buy a bulb for the purposes)...?

I might have been wrong about the pipette. Jay uses it for solution A in OBSIDIAN AQUA, which is not a thick liquid at all. I use a 1 ml syringe for solution A in OBSIDIAN AQUA. Syringes are fine if you use small bottles with wide enough necks to get the syringe into. I use no tubing to extend the length and "waste" the tiny dreg of stock solution that remains in the nozzle after dispensing the measured amount. I think consistency is the key here to getting predictable results.

RR

[muihlinn]

I started using a 10ml pipette, but i got tired of them because they are a pita to clean with tea solutions, specially if they are equipped with a pump device

[swmcl]

Well it would seem a major flaw with the 510 Pyro would be the issues around dispensing small amounts of a thicker viscosity liquid ...

I am looking online now for a supplier. I wonder how much harder again a 2ml pipette is to clean compared to a 10ml ... I see 2ml, 5ml, 10ml and 25ml variants.

Given the 510 is made at elevated temperatures I would assume one could dispense into a heated water ... or rinse the pipette in warmed water ... or elevate the 510 temp. beforehand. I can see how it becomes a PITA for sure!

I think I'll go for a borosilicate beaker along with the pipettes and heat 50ml to 100ml or so in the microwave and dispense into the heated water. I guess I could suck up the water / pyro solution into the pipette a few times to flush it too.

Its still not a biggie though. (I have to say that ... I just bought it!)

[mikebarger]

That has not been my experience and I've been using it for over five years. Continuous rotation for 4x5 and semi stand for 120....no issues with either.

Mike


Hello
The agitation scheme has to be "minimal" to avoid too fast oxidation, or fog can be a bit high.
Very toxic.

[mikebarger]

I use a baby oral syringe and it couldn't be easier, the syringe is easy to clean. If you do any research you'll see many use it this way without issue.

Mike


Well it would seem a major flaw with the 510 Pyro would be the issues around dispensing small amounts of a thicker viscosity liquid ...

I am looking online now for a supplier. I wonder how much harder again a 2ml pipette is to clean compared to a 10ml ... I see 2ml, 5ml, 10ml and 25ml variants.

Given the 510 is made at elevated temperatures I would assume one could dispense into a heated water ... or rinse the pipette in warmed water ... or elevate the 510 temp. beforehand. I can see how it becomes a PITA for sure!

I think I'll go for a borosilicate beaker along with the pipettes and heat 50ml to 100ml or so in the microwave and dispense into the heated water. I guess I could suck up the water / pyro solution into the pipette a few times to flush it too.

Its still not a biggie though. (I have to say that ... I just bought it!)

[Michael Cienfuegos]

I use a 10mL pipette and clean it by flushing with hot water, it takes only a few minutes to clean.

m

[Tin Can]

I am going to start using 510-Pyro as a change from Rodinal. I got supplies today with a micro scale.

510-Pyro appeals as it has good stock longevity like Rodinal. I also like simple formulae without 2 part mixing.

Seems to be little about it anywhere.

Comments?

[Tin Can]

I am going to start using 510-Pyro as a change from Rodinal. I got supplies today with a micro scale.

510-Pyro appeals as it has good stock longevity like Rodinal. I also like simple formulae without 2 part mixing.

Seems to be little about it anywhere.

Comments?

Well I keep looking and find ancient PYRO arguments, I'll just mix some tonight and make my own conclusion.

It seems the most repeated comment about anything film based is, 'test it for yourself'.

I bet folks 200 years from now will be really lost, especially while reading forums. Redacted forums.

I didn't realize I could buy LIQUID 2 part Pyrocat-HD. I will be trying that after 510-Pyro. Not side by side, I leave that for better lab workers.

[Jim Noel]

I use either syringes made to give medicine to babies, or pipettes with a pipette pump for all liquid developers.The more viscous ones like Pyrocat HD and 510 Pyro are more easily handled by the baby syringes because of their larger openings. This is a very accurate method of measuring liquids.

[jp]

When I measure 10ml, I use a cough syrup measuring cup. It's already marked for that quantity and is easy to clean.

[Tin Can]

I'll try baby syringes, but I have been using a 45 ml grad cyl and washing the remaining chem with water adding to the fluid total.

As the inventor said, working dilutions are high and 10% working solution mixing error may well be within reasonable limits. I did very carefully follow mixing of stock solution to less than 2% error, probably closer, but lets be realistic.

I only regret until I use it today is, I should have bought enough chems to make a liter, I only made a puny 100 ml and the way I go through developer this is barely a sample.

My testing will be on 2x3 sheet film, so I can run 10 batches.