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Indio
15-Jun-2014, 05:38
Hello,

I'm just getting crazy thinking on which camera will fit better my needs among a Calumet 540 and a Calumet cc 440 for studio use portraits, still life close up.
I know that the cc 440 lack in some movements on the rear part but I don't know if that could be an issue with portrait and still life.

Anyway if you have other camera models tha fit better for me please write them.

In the end but not less important I need a lens... my budget is low for the lens, around 200 dollars and I don't know what focal lenght get, 250-300-350mm???
Of course always for portrait, still life closeup work.

John Kasaian
15-Jun-2014, 06:56
It's the Indian (Indio?) not the arrow, but I'd avoid the architectural Calumet because it has a shorter rail for wider lenses (at least the one I had did---it's perfectly fine for architecture though!) I suggest 203- 215-ish mm would be a good focal length to start and $200 should easily get you a good used one. Kodak 203 f7.7 Ektars were real sleepers but there seem to be so many 210s on the market right now you can easily find good deals. For still life close ups I like wider lenses=less bellows draw=less bellows factor. If you don't need movements a 127mm Ektar refugee from a Speed Graphic, or a Ysaron salvaged off a Polaroid copy camera should work for you and I've seen those go for as cheap as $50 if you don't mind going a-hunting for one.
Have fun!

Bill_1856
15-Jun-2014, 07:39
Except for architecture, camera "movements" are mostly unnecessary. A little tilt and rise is all that's needed for 99.99% of photography.

Drew Bedo
15-Jun-2014, 08:37
What Bill said +1.

Indio
15-Jun-2014, 12:46
Thank you guys for your suggestions. Right now I use a Sonnar 180mm with my 6x6, it's fine for potraits but doesn't allow me to get very near for still life or close up work.
Some days ago I got the opportunity to play a little bit with a 4x5 cmaera in one store in San Francisco, the camera was with a 200 mm lens and onestly was too wide for my taste.

Alan Gales
15-Jun-2014, 13:09
Thank you guys for your suggestions. Right now I use a Sonnar 180mm with my 6x6, it's fine for potraits but doesn't allow me to get very near for still life or close up work.
Some days ago I got the opportunity to play a little bit with a 4x5 cmaera in one store in San Francisco, the camera was with a 200 mm lens and onestly was too wide for my taste.

A 180mm lens on a 6x6 would be close to a 300mm on a 4x5 in focal length.

You don't need a long lens for macro work. You do need plenty of bellows. Most product photography was shot with 210mm lenses. I don't do still life's so I'll let others who are more experienced comment further.

Richard Johnson
15-Jun-2014, 14:51
Most commercial photographers, up until adopting digital, did the majority of their still life and studio product shots using a traditional monorail with lots of movements and a modern 210/5.6 Schneider Symmar or Rodenstock Sironar lens. These are by far the most plentiful and reasonably priced 4x5 outfits on the used market because almost every student and pro had one. They are no longer popular with landscapists because they are heavier and bulkier than they care to carry but they will make the same (or better, being more robust) quality photo as any 4x5.

The 210 would not be too short for most work, the focal lengths you like for smaller formats do not simply scale up the way you think they might. And for traditional still life photography you will use all of your camera's front and rear movements and also most of its extension for close work.

Indio
15-Jun-2014, 16:56
So for closeup portraits and closeup still life a rail between 20''-26'' inch and a 210 mm lens should be fine for me?

Do you know some online store where get accessories and lens?

Alan Gales
15-Jun-2014, 18:27
For a 1:1 (life size) image with a 210mm lens you need 420mm or 16 1/2" of bellows extension and rail. For a 3:1 (3 times life size) you will need that 26" rail. So to answer your question it all depends on how much enlargement you want.

Some cameras like my Sinar have short starter rails and then you can add more extensions on. I can also add another standard and bellows.

KEH is a great place to buy used lenses. I also recommend this forum's for sale section. Ebay has the largest selection. I would figure on a CLA for any lens bought on Ebay and be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't need it.

John Kasaian
15-Jun-2014, 19:05
Keh is good. Also the "For Sale" forum right here is a good place for photo gear. I've bought photo gear from Jim at Midwest Photo Exchange and he's treated me very well. I'd suggest a Calumet 400 series(with a longer rail) or Graphic View 1 or 2, along with a 210mm convertible lens from Schneider (so you'll have a shorter focal length option for still life), in a good, working shutter would be a capable kit to look for.

Tim Meisburger
15-Jun-2014, 19:14
For still life, 135mm, and for macro lots of bellows!

Alan Gales
15-Jun-2014, 19:20
I'd suggest a Calumet 400 series(with a longer rail) or Graphic View 1 or 2, along with a 210mm convertible lens from Schneider (so you'll have a shorter focal length option for still life), in a good, working shutter would be a capable kit to look for.

+1


A lot of 4x5 monorails are sold with 210mm lenses, film holders, accessories, so you can get an even better deal bundled. My Sinar P came with a Schneider Symmar 210 F/5.6 and a case.

Richard Johnson
15-Jun-2014, 22:14
Look for a bundle that has a lower price and good, clean equipment but don't worry too much about the brand. Once you've shot a while and understand the design decisions and compromises then you may develop some preferences. KEH and MPEX are reliable used dealers - just be sure to get the view camera expert on the phone should you call them... the regular salespeople have no experience with this stuff.

In general, the older designs, like the "coat hanger" Calumet or Orbit, are durable and perfectly usable... and you can find the cameras for $100 or less.

The systematic cameras with interchangeable parts allow you to build the camera out to have an extra long rail and bellows, or go with a wide angle bag bellows, or convert to a larger format, replace a broken part, etc. Even if you just get a basic Sinar F (or better yet, a Sinar F2) with a 12" rail, you can simply buy a 6" rail section when or if you may need it. Other brands that offer system cameras are Cambo, Toyo, Arca, Linhof, and more. There are also a lot of incompatibilities between certain lines and models so do your homework first. Cameras like the Sinar F2, Toyo G, and the later Cambos can be excellent bargains.

You're also going to want a more solid, heavier tripod than most people expect, especially once you start cantilevering the camera out over a subject, pointing the lens down. Other photographers, who tend to shoot level, can get away with far lighter support.

Indio
15-Jun-2014, 22:28
Thanks to your suggestion I'm doing my work and its 2 days that I'm looking around for info about the models... right now I m thinking that a toyo G could keep me happy for long long time. About the older model like CC 4XXX kodak master view ecc I have a lot of doubts about easy and speed of use.
Maybe the best thing is spend more and get a Toyo G.
So if one of you guy have a 210-240 lens or a toyo G (or something better) just let me know.

Alan Gales
16-Jun-2014, 11:25
You can advertise in the for sale section that you are looking for a camera and lens after you have been here a month. Since you have joined last Dec. I would go ahead and post there what you are looking for and how much you are willing to spend.

The pros all used 210 f/5.6 lenses before they went digital so there is a glut of them out there and they sell cheap. A 240 will cost you more money and require more bellows extension for macro. A Toyo G is a great choice since you want to keep your costs down but of course it's a little more than the cameras that John was recommending.

Right now the best place to put your money is in film and a big, heavy, sturdy tripod like Richard wisely suggests. A Majestic tripod would be a great, inexpensive option.

DrTang
16-Jun-2014, 12:21
but....but....but.....

mine can bend like a pretzal...all geared too

look how cool it looks ..it's right in the brochure



Except for architecture, camera "movements" are mostly unnecessary. A little tilt and rise is all that's needed for 99.99% of photography.

Indio
16-Jun-2014, 13:21
I just bought this one : http://www.ebay.com/itm/301210609925?_trksid=p2055120.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=true

probably I'll need a extension rail.

I have a Manfrotto O55B and a Manfrotto 488 head, I will see if they are heavy enought for the Toyo G.

Now I just need : a lens, film older, and accessories for develoe the 4x5 films.

Richard Johnson
16-Jun-2014, 13:36
You could probably start with that tripod but it is undersized, you'll be a lot steadier with something larger.

John Kasaian
16-Jun-2014, 15:22
Thanks to your suggestion I'm doing my work and its 2 days that I'm looking around for info about the models... right now I m thinking that a toyo G could keep me happy for long long time. About the older model like CC 4XXX kodak master view ecc I have a lot of doubts about easy and speed of use.
Maybe the best thing is spend more and get a Toyo G.
So if one of you guy have a 210-240 lens or a toyo G (or something better) just let me know.
Nice!
What's with your issue about speed?

Dan Dozer
16-Jun-2014, 20:05
Looks like a nice sturdy camera to start with. I'm sure that it will serve you well. If it doesn't come with any lens boards, you'll need one or two to start with.

Now for my 2 cents worth. I don't do still lifes, but I do a lot of portrait work. I tend to use more soft focus effects with my portrait work than sharp focus and a smoother softer lens may not be what you're looking for with still lifes. Learning about soft focus type of lenses opens up a lot more possibilities for you and it's something you might want to consider. They also don't have to cost thousands of dollars (like the classic soft focus portrait lens does) either if you know what to loo for.

I think that the direction you are going in is the right one for just starting out and the lenses that people are suggesting are good choices. Do some searching and you should have no trouble coming up with one. I use my 210 MM Schneider Symmar on my 4 x 5 sometimes and it works very well. They are readily availble on the auction site and are very good lenses.

So Indio - you don't happen to live in Indio, CA do you? If you do, you're about a mile from me.

Indio
16-Jun-2014, 23:46
116850116851

Onestly choose a lens without see a print is really hard, of course I'm going with a 210-240. I would like to se a soft focus lens, for now the work that is the kind of work that I'm doing with my 6x6.
With the Toyo I hope to do better and give a stronger look to my portraits.
John, finally I have prefered a more modern model because many reason, one is that I think because the precision of the movements, the model that I tried was a simil cc 440 and was a little bit hard to work with.
Anyway, I'm in San Francisco.

Indio
16-Jun-2014, 23:49
Dan Dozer or other, if you want show me some of your work for help me to choose which lens is the most interesting for me, you are all welcome.

Tim Meisburger
17-Jun-2014, 03:59
You need a Heliar for portraits :rolleyes:

Alan Gales
17-Jun-2014, 10:12
Everyone has their opinion about their favorite portrait lenses. Some use several different lenses for portraiture to give them the look they want at the time.

Go to the Image Sharing and Discussion section of the forum and click on Portraits to get examples. The portrait section is sectioned off by months so you may want to go back several months to get plenty of examples.

You may also want to check out the Nude section while you are there for more examples.

Dan Dozer
17-Jun-2014, 21:38
OK - here are a few examples of other than traditional sharp focus lenses.

Bausch & Lomb Projection - image taken using only one of the two cells. Gives a sort of in focus center of the image and diffused towards the corners.

Berthiot Eidoscope - diffuses the edges of the parts of the image that are light on dark as you open the lens up. Note the Berthiot and Hermagis were the same lens company (Berthiot purchased Hermagis).

Heliar - as Tim said - excellent lens for portraits. Pretty sharp focus and gives very very smooth bokeh in the out of focus areas. Note that the rumor is that if you mount this lens in a shutter, you might loose some of the quality of the bokeh because the iris in the standard lens has a very large nubmer of blades in it.

Ilex Projection Lens - image taken using only one of the two cells. Similar look to the Bausch & Lomb.

All of these images were done with 8 x 10 film, but all of these lenses are also available for smaller formats. I use parts of lenses quite often as you see in the B&L and Ilex images. These Projection type of lenses are not difficult to find and don't cost a lot. The Berthiot is probably the most expensive of these images. Smaller versions of the Heliar to fit a 4 x 5 camera are pretty plentiful on the auction site.

Richard Johnson
18-Jun-2014, 04:55
Since you are new to this, please don't get distracted by gear fetish-ism. Plenty of famous and wonderful portraits have been made with common, popular, and inexpensive "normal" vanilla lenses like the Schneider Symmar.

Of course you can hunt down some of the exotic lenses and then figure out how to mount them and make an arrangement for a shutter apparatus, coat wet plates, make darkroom enhancements, build studios, master various types of lighting... but don't get the cart ahead of the horse.

Dan does have some great examples and studying his work is a good idea but note that he says he uses the Symmar too.

Dan Dozer
18-Jun-2014, 07:48
Richard is 100% right in his advice. My recommendation is since you're planning on shooting both still lifes and portraits, your first lens should be something like a more traditional modern lens like the Schneider Symmar or Super Angulon (Nikon and Fuji both have equals to those). Note that the Super Angulon is more of a wide angle lens and the Symmar is more of a longer focal length lens. Those lenses would come in a shutter and would make your job easier for portraits at the start. Get your feet wet with using your new camera and what it's adjustments can do. Then, if you want to broaden your scope, look for other alternates with things like the Voightlander Heliar or something more in the soft focus line. I just got a little Darlot Optician Petzval type lens for my 4 x 5 that I'm starting to try out. Note that of the dozen or more lenses I use for portrait type of work with my 8 x 10, only one has a shutter.

Indio
18-Jun-2014, 13:37
You have right guys, right now I have not the experience (and money) for particular lens. What do you think about 240mm Rodenstock Ronar f9, 250 F6.3 FUJINON, Kodak Ektar 203mm f/7.7 and Schneider Apo-Symmar S 240mm F/5.6 ?
Thank you for the examples Dan.

Richard Johnson
18-Jun-2014, 18:27
The 240 Symmar comes in a large Copal 3 shutter that is heavier, lacks the two fastest speeds, is more expensive and aimed at larger than 4x5 cameras. The more common 210 Symmar comes in a more manageable Copal 1.

The other lenses are good choices too but for portraits the Symmar's f/5.6 is a plus for having a brighter ground glass to focus on, also for shallow depth of field.... Also they may be a bit more expensive - I highly recommend just getting the 210 rather than thinking the 240 will make significant difference (it won't).

Indio
18-Jun-2014, 19:32
Ok, let go with the 210 Symmar. Before to buy what should I check about this lens? Are there more different models of this lens?
On ebay I can see that there are some model that are convertible other not...

Indio
18-Jun-2014, 19:36
There are the 210-150 convertible model and the 210-150. And what about the lens board for the Toyo G?

Dan Dozer
18-Jun-2014, 19:45
I agree with Richard in that if you are budget conscious, the 210 mm Symmar S F5.6 is a real good lens and the one that I have for my 4 x 5. I've also even used it at portrait distances on my 8 x 10 when I'm shooting in real tight quarters. I don't think you will see any difference between 210 and 240 mm, and with the 210 mm being a much more common size, prices will be less for that size lens. There is a fairly good looking one on the auction site right now with a $160 buy it now price. That's a pretty good price and Cameras West looks to be the shop selling it.

I'm not familar with the other lenses you mention. Rodenstock and Fujinon are both real good companies and I know that a lot of people like the Kodak Ektar, but I have no personal experience with any of the three.

Note, if you buy one, don't get one that is in a Sinar board as it might not have a shutter with it. I know nothing about the Sinar boards, but I think you need to buy a separate Sinar shutter to use with it.

Dan Dozer
18-Jun-2014, 19:53
The convertables are older lenses that you can use with both lens cells at the shorter focal distance. By removing one of the cells, it changes to the longer focal length. It gives you the option of having two focal lengths in one, but the longer focal length is normally not quite as good optical quality as the shorter one.

I have the 150/265 convertible Symmar and the 150 MM works very well for me and I use it quite often. I've never seriously worked with the 265 mm, because I'm not sure that at portrait distances the bellows on my Linhof is long enough.

Regarding different types - if it is a Symmar, it's an older model. If it's a Symmar S, it's a newer model. I would recommend the S version. You can check on the Schneider website - they have a tab you can select to see when the lens was made based on the serial number which is shown on the rim of the lens.

Dan Dozer
18-Jun-2014, 19:58
Regarding the lens board, if your camera doesn't come with one, you will need to buy one for the lens. With wooden cameras, you can make them yourself, but with metal cameras like the Toyo, you normally have to buy one. It needs to have a hole drilled in it that fits the shutter that the lens is mounted in. In the case of the 210mm Symmar S, it's a Copal 1 shutter (very common). You should be able to find a used one on the auction site with a little looking. Maybe you can even find a Schneider lens already mounted in a Toyo lens board and you'll get both at once.

Regarding whether there are different types of Toyo lens boards, I'm not familar with the Toyo cameras so I can't help you there.

Alan Gales
18-Jun-2014, 20:05
Ektars and Commercial Ektars are popular for portraiture because they are sharp but not clinically sharp. They come in older shutters and are usually more money than the Symmar you are looking at. A Fujinon lens will be similar to a Schneider Symmer, Rodenstock or Nikkor lens.

Sinar makes two lens boards, a regular board and a DB board that you use with a Sinar shutter. If you buy a lens in a DB board there will be no shutter with it.

You will need to buy Toyo lens boards. I believe there were two sizes. I think the larger boards were for the monorails and the smaller boards for the technical field cameras. Someone please correct me if I'm not accurate on this. You can also purchase a reduction board that reduces the Toyo board so you can use the popular small Technika style boards.

Richard Johnson
18-Jun-2014, 22:03
After the Schneider Symmar-S came the APO Symmar and now the current Symmar-L series. Newer lenses are generally more expensive and have incremental improvements -- mostly with coatings and larger image circles -- but none are so significantly improved that most photographers see any reason to upgrade a good 20-30 year old lens. Within a $200 budget I would simply get the cleanest one possible regardless of vintage.

Copal 1 shutters have been the most popular although you will see some Compurs, both are good. The newer, later shutters are all-black, including the shutter speed dial. Chrome dials indicate an older (1980s) shutter. Again, buy based on condition rather than age.

Indio
19-Jun-2014, 18:41
FInally, I got the Symmar S from CAmera West http://www.ebay.com/itm/181440038590?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

and this board http://www.ebay.com/itm/141302887357?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Do you think I should get a loupe X4 for help me to focus? doesn't matter the size of the negative I'm always worry to miss the right focus because I like the wide aperture.

What about light lens hood?

Alan Gales
19-Jun-2014, 21:28
A X4 loupe would be nice. Some people prefer a stronger loupe and others prefer the cheap reading glasses you get at the drug store. You don't have to spend a lot of money on it.

A compendium shade is best but takes up space in your bag. You can be cheap and use a rubber lens hood or ultra cheap like me and use the dark slide to shade your lens.

If you need a dark cloth you can be frugal and use an oversized black T shirt or sweat shirt. Get in the practice of draping your dark cloth or black shirt over the bellows while making the exposure just in case you develop a light leak in the bellows.

Richard Johnson
20-Jun-2014, 09:51
Yes, simple shade - cheap loupe (4-8x) - black t-shirt and you're good to get started. You can always upgrade later.

Indio
21-Jun-2014, 02:54
Alan, where I can find the rubber lens hood for the Symmar S 210?

I went to buy some film holder...they are so fxxxxx expensive new! 150 dollars for just 1 film holder!

What kind or model of film holder should I buy for the Toyo 45G?

On ebay somebody sell lot of film older but I don't know if they will fit on the Toyo...

bruce cahn
21-Jun-2014, 05:07
There are circumstances when front and back tilt are a big help in portrait photography. For instance, most models look better with a low camera angle. In that case I tilt the front and back parallel to each other and to the angle of the head. The best reasonably priced camera for you might be an Ebony RW45, though budget might be a problem, with a 210 lens.

Dan Dozer
21-Jun-2014, 06:56
Film holders for 4 x 5 cameras are typically standard sizes and fit all 4 x 5 cameras. Only a few really old ones (and some odd ones made for Graflex cameras) are odd sizes. I would avoid the real old "wooden" ones. The "newer" wooden ones that are painted black are many times fine and I have several that I use. The newer ones than that are the plastic holders made my companies like Fidelity and they will be the best from a used standpoint, but are a little more expensive. The new plastic Toyo holders are in my opinion the best, but it's hard to find them used and as you say, they are real expensive new.

Get some used ones and they'll work fine for you.

Alan Gales
21-Jun-2014, 12:58
Alan, where I can find the rubber lens hood for the Symmar S 210?

I went to buy some film holder...they are so fxxxxx expensive new! 150 dollars for just 1 film holder!

What kind or model of film holder should I buy for the Toyo 45G?

On ebay somebody sell lot of film older but I don't know if they will fit on the Toyo...


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/116985-REG/General_Brand_77mm_Screw_In_Rubber_Lens.html You can also try your local camera shop. Just get one that fits your lens' filter size.

Any brand film holder will work. I'd stay away from the older wooden ones starting out because they can be warped. Advertise on this forum that you are looking for some light tight film holders to start out with. I'm sure someone will be happy to sell you some extras they have. I would try to get at least 5 to start out with so you can load an entire box of film.

For 4x5 I have Toyo's, Riteways and Fidelity Elite film holders. My 8x10 holders are all Lisco Regals. Yeah, I favor the Toyo brand but as long as they are light tight I'm happy. ;)

Alan Gales
21-Jun-2014, 13:07
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/61077-REG/Toyo_View_180_903_4x5_Sheet_Film_Holders.html

That's a box of two. Cheaper than what you found but still not exactly cheap which is why most of us start out with used film holders.

Richard Johnson
21-Jun-2014, 23:46
I am sure someone would sell you good clean plastic "modern" Lisco or Fidelity 4x5 holders in usable condition for $10 each if you ask in the classifieds section.

With ten sheet boxes of film and a reasonable amount of shooting it is nice to get five holders so you can load up an entire box at a time.

The Toyo made holders are a little nicer quality than the Liscos or Fidelities but will run $20-$25 each used and are harder to find. It is more important to find CLEAN holders without cracks or defects. Buying from a professional photographer is usually the best way, they used to literally use dozens and dozens, maybe buy an extra for a spare.

Indio
22-Jun-2014, 13:07
Thank you so much for all your comments, I have just the last 2 question : better the double sided holder or single? Compared at a 35mm or a medium format camera how much is the deep of field of the Symmar-S at f5.6?

Alan Gales
22-Jun-2014, 14:37
The depth of field would not change. A 210mm lens shot at f/5.6 on a 4x5 camera will have the same depth of field as a 210 lens shot at f/5.6 on medium format or 35mm camera.

I have never used or seen single sided film holders. All mine are double sided and hold two sheets of film.

John Kasaian
22-Jun-2014, 19:01
Tiltall film holders will not work. They are the right size but they don't have the locking ridge other film holders will have to keep the holder in the camera when you pull the dark side. Check any used film holders you get with photo paper for light leaks before putting them to work.

bruce cahn
23-Jun-2014, 15:03
I found a case of 24 boxes, new Fidelity 4x5 holders in my studio. Anyone want some, they are for sale.