Rathenower Optische Werke Cinerectim 62,5/180 (Projection lens)

[Misko]

Hello,

Does anyone know anything about Rathenower Optische Werke Cinerectim 62,5/180 lens?

As I can guess by simple test it's 180mm as the 2nd number suggests but I am not sure what does 62,5 stands in the name?

Also rear elements look like of Petzval design but I cannot unscrew the front element & I am unable to confirm if it is really some kind of Petzval (Projection lens) or some other kind of triplet? Anyone else knows anything about that?

Regards,
Misko

[LF_rookie_to_be]

It's the diameter of the outer housing in milimetres. I've got a couple of such projection lenses, some branded Zeiss, and some Leitz Wetzlar. Most were probably made by Docter Optics or Isco and all are either triplets or Tessars. "Cinerectim", however, yields search results such as "dva sočiva", so it may very well be a Petzval. Congratulations. My favourite of the 180mm projection lenses is a modern Kodak-branded Doctarlux 180/3,5 Tessar - wonderful swirls.

EDIT: From "Die Optische Industrie in Rathenow": Projektionsobjektive Cinerectim (Vierlinser vom Petzval Typ)

[Misko]

Hello,

Thanks a lot for your reply and clarification of all the things that were bothering me :)

Obviously 62.5 is some kind of standard for the Projection Lenses. It seems that quite a few of them have front part (housing) of that diameter.

I have few of these projection lenses since recently & have to find a way to mount them to my Graflex Speed on the possible way without buying plates for each and every of them... I would consider buying a single Universal Iris Mount for them but Im afraid that UIM might not hold them tight enough since some of them don't have the step in diameter where I could eventually grip the lens better...

BTW "dva sočiva" means "two lenses" - Petzval should be with three... wouldn't it? But if the "Die Optische Industrie in Rathenow" describes it as Petzval Type - I am really happy... hoping it will cover slightly more than 170 & 175mm Kiptars that I've got (which I believe will not cover 4x5 well based on the examples from amazing work of Mr. Ramiro Elena).

I've seen Docarlux lenses (though 2 I've seen were zoom lenses) and although they were very cheap I was reluctant to buy them :( Maybe if I would find some fixed focal length one like yours I would go for it...

Thanks again!
Cheers,
Misko

P.S. Considering you've mentioned "dva sočiva" - I am wondering if you're from East Europe like myself?

[LF_rookie_to_be]

You're welcome, glad to be of some help. 52,5 and 62,5 seem to be the most common mounting standards for these kinds of lenses.

Land of Efke is where I'm at and from. Whether it's Eastern or Central Europe, or perhaps both, who can tell.

Are you familiar with a book titled "Laufbildprojektion" by H. Tümmel and J. Stüper, volume 6 of "Die Wissenschaftliche und Angewandte Photographie"? If not, here are two pages from the chapter that covers the types of many older projection lenses:


116177 116178

[Misko]

As far as I remember Geography lectures from the time we lived in same country it all depends on whether you are in old part of capital or north of it, or in new part or south of it... isn't it?

Back to the (more) important things, it is good to hear that there are only 2 opening sizes. That makes my life easier since in that case I could eventually sacrifice two lens boards for Graflex & hope most of these will fit toy these sizes!

Will read the text you have been so kind to upload. Unfortunately I don't know any of the German literature... so these are welcome update!

[LF_rookie_to_be]

North and South, East and West - they're just winds. But you're about right. We were once tenants in the same "soliter", to quote Đ.B., and last year, we over here moved into a new, big housing block.

I sacrificed several Sinar boards for permanent mounting of each of my projection lenses, which are used in front of a Sinar Copal shutter. No big deal, since Sinar parts are easily found.

Perhaps you might find this interesting - the lens in the pictures below is my latest acquisition, probably by Docter Optics. Nice swirls on 4x5, not too much "buzz" in the corners. 62.5 mm is the diameter of the rear part of the lens which goes into a helicoid mount on the projector. The front has a slightly larger diameter.

116183 116184 116185 116186

[Misko]

I wish I had some camera where making lens boards would be slightly easier than it is for Graflex Speed Pacemaker. On other hand prices for those are not so cheap in order to mount each of them on separate lens board before I am sure that the lens is a 'keeper' :)
Which Leitz lens is that you got? I got myself Hector 250mm but have to go to Budapest to friend's place to pick it up. Arrived there from UK.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Which Leitz lens is that you got?

There isn't a lens name printed on the rim, only "Leitz Wetzlar Germany" and "f=250mm". My guess is it's either a Diaron or Dimar. Whether those use the same formula as Hektor (cemented doublet in the middle), not sure.

[Misko]

Projection Hektor has a feeling of a Petzval design but I am not 100% sure if it is really Petzval or not.

I've seen some great results with it in both 150mm & 200mm focal lengths. I managed to acquire myself 250mm version which will hopefully fit & work on my Graflex Series D 4x5 camera.

[Misko]

Hektor Link 01 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?109251-Leica-Elmaron-P-250mm-projection-lens&highlight=hektor)

Hektor Link 02 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67286-Leitz-Hektor-200-2-5-slide-projection-lens-as-taking-lens&highlight=hektor)

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Could be. From Vademecum:

"Hektor- An improved Elmar
During the early 1930's the programme of Elmars was extended by a series of more ambitious lenses with
extra glasses, especially in the centre of the Triplet. Leitz were to use these in one form or another for many
years, the last being as projector lenses long after WW2. It must be stressed these were designed both for
greater speed, but also sometimes for wider angles or greater sharpness and that this is a design where Leitz
were successful but few other designers have chosen to follow. In all cases they can be related to the triplet
by compounding one or more components. This avoids extra air-glass surfaces but at the cost of rather
limited design freedom.
(a) The centre glass was the only one doubled in the 135mm f4.5 Hektor, which replaced the 135mm f4.5
Elmar. The Hektor is generally regarded as an improvement, especially for the colour correction, and without
any penalty. (Lei024)
(b) Both outer glasses were compounded in the 28mm f6.3 Hektor. Again this was a real success, offering a
nice compact real wide angle lens of good sharpness and even illumination. [Most users would rate it ahead of
the comparable Zeiss 28mm f8.0 Tessar of the same period. (Lei020)]
(c) The other two Hektors have all the three glasses compounded and are more controversial lenses. At small
apertures they are extremely well corrected, especially for colour. But at large apertures the contrast falls off
quite noticably due to the apertures of f2.5 for the 50mm lens (Lei021)and f1.9 for the 73mm one.(Lei022)
They can do good work at full aperture, but really are best only under contrasty conditions where the under
corrected spherical aberrations do not reduce the image contrast too much. This is really the sort of lens
where the older workers carefully advised giving a minimum exposure, although they may not have always
understood why this was essential. The Hektor may have been patented under USPat 1,939,098 of
12/12/1933 which uses glasses G1= 1.624/58.2; G2+5= 1.603/38.0; G3= 1.665/35.7; G4= 1.581/40.8; G6=
1.656/51.4. But Merte quotes a version with G1+6= 1.6190; G2= 1.6100; G3= 1.6750; G4= 1.5890; G5=
1.5290. Mr Cook (Photo Jnl Oct 1949 shows curves for the 73mm Hektor's correction. The field is fairly flat
with quite a lot of astigmatism at up to 2% of the focal length at 17° and the spherical aberration is rather
heavy, and continues to quite small apertures, giving a perceptible fringe round details. He comments that
this type of correction can give detail under contrasty lighting conditions but falls down badly in low contrast
subjects- (which is why soft focus lenses are used in portraiture!) A Hektor was occasionally used other than
on a Leica: it has been noted on a Mentor Dreivier at No150,691, and a few were used for color enlarging as
Varob Hektors f6.3- iris opening being limited to f6.3.
There is also another "Hektor"patent which may cover the Hektor Rapids for cine, under USPat
1,899,934/07/03/1933 for lenses of f2.0 and f1.3 with the front glasses separated. A Hektor Rapid was noted at
auction at No220,071 (about 1935) on a 16mm Bolex, and another was a 2.7cm f1.4 No417,151 (1937).
Another 'fast' lens seems to be covered in USPat 2,164,028 but it is hard to say if it was put into production
[although it is near the Schneider Kino Xenon f1.5 and just may have resulted in an exchange of rights for f1.5
designs.] It seems to be a narrow angle design for about 30°. It used G1= 1.603/61; G2= 1.670/47; G3=
1.689/31; G4= 1.501/57; G5= 1.670/47; G6= 1.673/32. Merte also notes a 5-glass 2+2+1 version in German
Pat. 526,308/1930.
(d) Postwar the f2.5 Hektor series continued the design but were fully successful in this role of projection
lenses as they were now coated, and the light from a projector is mainly concentrated in the centre of the lens
in any case. Basically different characteristics are needed in these two uses. And it should be mentioned that
the 125mm f2.5 Hektor was mounted as a short-head lens for portraiture and is now a sought after item
offering just a little softness at full aperture. Sadly it is not easy to reuse ex-projector lenses in this way as
portrait lenses normally, as they lack an iris and the mount would require substantial re-engineering.
(e) Finally the famous Thambar f2.2 90mm portrait lens (Lei023) is really one of this group of lenses, with a
layout parallel to the 135mm Hektor, but with a much greater aperture and the softness is proportionately
greater. This can be controlled either by stopping down, when it becomes really sharp at f9 or so, or by fitting
a centre spot filter over the lens, which opaque centre cuts out all the sharply imaged light and gives an
image without any core of fine detail inside the halo of light. This 'spot' is an essential feature to check on
purchase, and its use must not be overdone as excessive stop down then result in a negative with a diffuse
black spot in the centre! The Thambar iris is double scaled to indicate the limit of safe stop down. This is a
famous and unique lens but one which owners say takes a little getting used to like many soft focus lenses.
A number of these Hektors are scarce and costly, the Thambar especially so.
Hektor f6.3 28mm 5-glass Lei020 (B.J.A. 1937 below)
Hektor f2.5 50mm 6-glass Lei021
Hektor f1.9 73mm 6-glass Lei022
Hektor f4.5 135mm4-glass Lei024
Hektor f2.5 125mm4-glass Portrait lens for Viso use.
Thambar f2.2 90mm 4-glassPortrait lens Lei023 (B.J.A. 1936, p268)
Varob Hektor f6.3 50mm 6-glass for colour enlarging, iris limited to f6.3 max."

"The collector will also find a wide and impressive range of other lenses such as Elmaron and Hektor
projector lenses, cine lenses for the Leicina cine camera, and bought-in items such as the Schneider PA
Curtagon mounted for the Leicaflex- but without meter coupling. This latter is a costly item, and holds
its value well as there are no problems over coupling cams!
Elmaron f2.8 35, 45, 50, 85, 120, 150, f3.6, 200, f4.0, 250mm for
Pradovit Color and Pradovit Color 110 (45mm) (1970's)
Colorplan f2.5 90mm
Hektor f2.8 250, 300mm for Prado Universal.
Hektor f2.5 200mm
Also Epis for Episcope as f3.6, 325mm and f3.5, f4.0 400mm, Scriptar f4.0 300 and 340mm for
overhead projector Diascriptor 4."

Note to administrators: If posting sections from "Lens Collector's Vademecum" is considered inappropriate, please remove this post. My apologies.

[LF_rookie_to_be]

Lens types derived from Cooke triplet (http://www.abload.de/img/lens_scheme_tri_v5ev1i.png)

Triplet-Hektor-Tessar (http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/FORUM/Taiwan-Forum/Lens-Talk/04-Hektor/Triplet-Hektor-Tessar-s.jpg)

Leitz Prado projector section drawing (http://www.pradoseum.eu/Grafiken/Prado500-Aufbau.jpg)