PDA

View Full Version : 16x20 Empire



RTucker
28-May-2014, 20:14
Does anybody shoot 16x20? I am being offered an Empire 16x20 camera, that appears to be in good shape except for the bellows. I am thinking of picking it up and doing a light restoration on it, putting a new bellows on it. It has one film holder, and a voiglander 50cm barrel lens on it. My question is it worth spending some money on it, to try to resell it if nobody is shooting in that format. What would you do?

Amedeus
28-May-2014, 20:41
I would shoot collodion with it ...

Tim Meisburger
28-May-2014, 21:46
I think almost everyone here would jump at it if the price were right. Regular film would be expensive, but many people would shoot x-ray film and use the large negative for alternative processes. So yes, you should get it.

Jim Graves
28-May-2014, 21:48
I think almost everyone here would jump at it if the price were right. Regular film would be expensive, but many people would shoot x-ray film and use the large negative for alternative processes. So yes, you should get it.

+1

Oren Grad
28-May-2014, 21:59
My question is it worth spending some money on it...

With apologies for saying the obvious: it depends how much "some" is.

Tracy Storer
28-May-2014, 22:31
"Empire State" ? My (late) friend Patrick Alt did a lot of work with his beautifully restored 18"x22" Empire State. A new bellows from Custom Bellows will likely be around the $500-$600 mark, but worth it, they make all my ULF (and all other sizes) bellows.
Don't know your budget, the offering price, or what the lens is......all are important factors in the que$tion.
Good luck !

Oren Grad
28-May-2014, 22:49
Are you set up to handle 16x20 in your darkroom?

I like to contact print with a decent border to allow safe handling and corner mounting, and since the biggest paper I can reasonably handle is 16x20, that would rule out 16x20 for me. But in principle I'd be game to try 14x17, if the price was right and I had the cash on hand.

StoneNYC
28-May-2014, 23:29
If you're going to do it, and want real film, you have 3 choices for new film that's not x-ray, and it only comes around once a year so you better snag it!...all ilford

Delta100

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1173952-Ilford-Delta-Pro-100-ISO-16x20-25-Sheets

FP4+

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1904558-Ilford-FP4+-125-ISO-16x20-25-Sheets

And of course HP5+

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1871788-Ilford-HP5+-400-ISO-16x20-25-Sheets

Good luck!

Don't forget this is once a year, there's an order deadline... So don't wait.

RTucker
29-May-2014, 04:41
Its part of an estate I am buying. The owner has boxes of new old stock Hasselblad, and the cool Rolleiflex sl2000, left over from a store he owned in the 80s. The empire camera will be just kind of included in the deal. The Voiglander lens if I remember said something like periwinkle on the top of the barrel.

Drew Bedo
29-May-2014, 05:25
My Vote:



First get the camera.

When it comes to these old cameras we can't really own them, We are really stewards or curators who care for and hold them to pass onto another generation. You have the opportunity to bring this camera back and pass it on; now—or later.

When I first got it, I idid a gentle restoration on my Kodak 2D (8x10) to clean it up and so on . . .and I use the camera. Its disposition is mentioned in my Will.

This Empire is great camera for ULF-alt photography, AND IT COMES WITH FILM HOLDER AND LENS. If you decide on not doing the restoration you can sell it as-is right here to someone who will give it a good home.But, first . . .get the camera!

goamules
29-May-2014, 06:06
I'd get it, even without a lens. For ULF, there are two things hard to find; the camera body, and the lens. I have a lens or two now, but am looking for a camera. Many are in my shoes, and they didn't make many that large. So there will always be a market for it. I wouldn't pay a ton for it, because they are specialized, and if you don't like it, it might take a while to sell if too expensive. I'd roughly say anything below $1500 and I'd buy without question. Above, I'd start thinking about it.

Drew Bedo
29-May-2014, 06:08
I would have thought that the film holder that fit the camera would be the hardest thing to come by in ULF gear .

Jody_S
29-May-2014, 07:01
Its part of an estate I am buying. The owner has boxes of new old stock Hasselblad, and the cool Rolleiflex sl2000, left over from a store he owned in the 80s. The empire camera will be just kind of included in the deal. The Voiglander lens if I remember said something like periwinkle on the top of the barrel.

If you're getting a Voigtlander Steinheil's Periscope in the deal, you should make a few bucks off that too. Especially if it's the size that goes with a 16x20 Empire.

RTucker
29-May-2014, 07:17
Yes it was a Voiglander 50cm Periscope lens

jbenedict
29-May-2014, 07:47
Since it is a 16x20, you could make backs in other sizes. Imagine a 16x20 to 11x14 back called a "reducing back". Talk about "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence"!

Jody_S
29-May-2014, 19:16
Yes it was a Voiglander 50cm Periscope lens

That may be the only one in existence in that focal length. It belongs in a museum.

bruce cahn
1-Jun-2014, 10:57
A great format. I used to shoot with a 16x20 Wisner, then switched to 14x17 in order to get a nice black border on 16x20 paper. The problem is film, No more Bergger. Is there still Rollei 16x20? If so Freestyle can order some. It has a little infrared so it needs to be refrigerated.

StoneNYC
1-Jun-2014, 15:15
A great format. I used to shoot with a 16x20 Wisner, then switched to 14x17 in order to get a nice black border on 16x20 paper. The problem is film, No more Bergger. Is there still Rollei 16x20? If so Freestyle can order some. It has a little infrared so it needs to be refrigerated.

As I posted earlier ilford is cutting 16x20 in 3 film emulsions this year, so it's available right now just don't wait, the special order ends I think the 25th of this month. Look at my past post for the links to the HP5+/FP4+/Delta100 it's not IR but I would still refrigerate at least the HP5+ since it's so expensive I would rather keep it as fresh as possible. But that's me.

I like the black border idea, thanks for that suggestion.

Tin Can
1-Jun-2014, 15:50
I think, as others have said, there is a good, but tiny demand for that camera right here.

However, if you aren't going to shoot it, don't restore it for profit as there will be none. This ULF business is more for love than money these days. We are a small group.

Price the film and see if you still like it.

bruce cahn
2-Jun-2014, 06:45
Try the Rollei film if they still make it. It is much better than the Ilford. For holders you can get them made by Lotus or Brubaker.

StoneNYC
2-Jun-2014, 14:02
Try the Rollei film if they still make it. It is much better than the Ilford. For holders you can get them made by Lotus or Brubaker.

I've honestly never heard anyone say that Rollie is better than ilford, ilford is top notch stuff, but Rollie is also very good and they make some fairly good emulsions, I would just be surprised if it were as cheap as the Ilford and certainly ilford has a finer grained and more consistently reliable emulsion coating. HOWEVER art is very personal, if the OP is unfamiliar with either film I would purchase both and test them out to see which the OP prefers. It's all about the look and feel that you are going for.

EDIT: I mean but a roll or smaller 4x5 test sheets to test, not the actual ULF sheets to test).

Scott Davis
2-Jun-2014, 14:41
Stone- at $500/box, it's not something you "buy both and see which you like better".

StoneNYC
2-Jun-2014, 14:53
Stone- at $500/box, it's not something you "buy both and see which you like better".

You know I mean buying roll film or 4x5 sheets lol!

Well that's what I meant anyway.

pierre506
2-Jun-2014, 16:05
A great format. I used to shoot with a 16x20 Wisner, then switched to 14x17 in order to get a nice black border on 16x20 paper. The problem is film, No more Bergger. Is there still Rollei 16x20? If so Freestyle can order some. It has a little infrared so it needs to be refrigerated.

There are 2 brands of B & W sheet films still making in China, Lucky & Shanghai.
I just bought 2 boxes of 8x20 Shanghai film. The price is $100 for 25 sheets of each box.
I know that its quality is lower than Ilford. But the price is acceptable.

StoneNYC
2-Jun-2014, 17:41
There are 2 brands of B & W sheet films still making in China, Lucky & Shanghai.
I just bought 2 boxes of 8x20 Shanghai film. The price is $100 for 25 sheets of each box.
I know that its quality is lower than Ilford. But the price is acceptable.

Wow yes! I agree, for that price I would buy that instead of ilford too!! haha

pierre506
2-Jun-2014, 18:42
Wow yes! I agree, for that price I would buy that instead of ilford too!! haha

I just got a group order news about ilford: 8x20size, 25 sheets, $350...

Tin Can
2-Jun-2014, 18:46
pierre506,

I was going to ask how about shipping, but I see you are located in China.

Is there a known international shipper of these films?




There are 2 brands of B & W sheet films still making in China, Lucky & Shanghai.
I just bought 2 boxes of 8x20 Shanghai film. The price is $100 for 25 sheets of each box.
I know that its quality is lower than Ilford. But the price is acceptable.

StoneNYC
2-Jun-2014, 19:13
I just got a group order news about ilford: 8x20size, 25 sheets, $350...

Yes that's the ULF special order I was referring to, ilford does this every year, they offer many odd size films and will cut them, for the ULF they will even cut 1 box no matter if only one person wants it, but the roll films they need a minimum.

That lucky film sounds cheap though wow! If I get into ULF (besides 11x14 X-Ray pinhole) I would buy that!

pierre506
3-Jun-2014, 07:05
Yes that's the ULF special order I was referring to, ilford does this every year, they offer many odd size films and will cut them, for the ULF they will even cut 1 box no matter if only one person wants it, but the roll films they need a minimum.

That lucky film sounds cheap though wow! If I get into ULF (besides 11x14 X-Ray pinhole) I would buy that!


Lucky film is made in north of China.
Shanghai film is made in Shanghai.
They are different~

pierre506
3-Jun-2014, 07:27
pierre506,

I was going to ask how about shipping, but I see you are located in China.

Is there a known international shipper of these films?

Yes, I lived in Suzhou, very near Shanghai.
I exposed Shanghai negative as ISO 50 after my test, although it declares ISO 100.
I am not sure if it is safe to ship to abroad.

116221

StoneNYC
3-Jun-2014, 10:28
Yes, I lived in Suzhou, very near Shanghai.
I exposed Shanghai negative as ISO 50 after my test, although it declares ISO 100.
I am not sure if it is safe to ship to abroad.

116221

Why not safe?

mihag
3-Jun-2014, 10:33
Adox CHS 100 II is available in plethora of formats, including 16x20 inch.

Scott Davis
3-Jun-2014, 11:40
You know I mean buying roll film or 4x5 sheets lol!

Well that's what I meant anyway.

Why would I think you were talking about 4x5 in a thread about a 16x20 camera and the films available for that camera in that size?

StoneNYC
3-Jun-2014, 11:42
Why would I think you were talking about 4x5 in a thread about a 16x20 camera?

Because most people when they do testing for something often use roll film or smaller sheets because it's cheaper... But I said I made a mistake and I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

pierre506
3-Jun-2014, 16:43
Why not safe?

X-Ray checks between the delivery way~

bruce cahn
4-Jun-2014, 19:37
I've honestly never heard anyone say that Rollie is better than ilford, ilford is top notch stuff, but Rollie is also very good and they make some fairly good emulsions, I would just be surprised if it were as cheap as the Ilford and certainly ilford has a finer grained and more consistently reliable emulsion coating. HOWEVER art is very personal, if the OP is unfamiliar with either film I would purchase both and test them out to see which the OP prefers. It's all about the look and feel that you are going for.

EDIT: I mean but a roll or smaller 4x5 test sheets to test, not the actual ULF sheets to test).
The Rollie is better. Try it and see. I have shot a lot of 16x20 with it. The prints are better than I got from anything else. More subtle. I was the importer for Rollie sheet film. I dropped it because there were occasional quality problems. But the results were impressive. Better than Bergger or Kodak too, though I did not use the Kodak (Tri-X) in sizes larger than 8x10.

StoneNYC
4-Jun-2014, 19:43
The Rollie is better. Try it and see. I have shot a lot of 16x20 with it. The prints are better than I got from anything else. More subtle. I was the importer for Rollie sheet film. I dropped it because there were occasional quality problems. But the results were impressive. Better than Bergger or Kodak too, though I did not use the Kodak (Tri-X) in sizes larger than 8x10.

Yea it's the quality problems and consistency, I do a lot of model work with film, can't exactly re-shoot a model shoot with QC issues, I guess that's why I was saying I liked ilford better, but I'll try some, but I try to stay consistent so I don't have you many different films. Thanks for the info I'll check it out.