Horseman press 6x9 film backs

[Mark McCarvill]

Hi folks. Anyone out there familiar with Horseman press 6x9 film backs? Are they graflok compatible? And how would you rate them for film flatness?

Thanks!

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Mark

I do not know if there are different other models of 6x9 Horseman rollfilm backs outside the 'big' one that fits the International 9x12-4"x5" back and the ´small´ one which is compatible with smaller 2"x3" graflocks.

The one I use on an Arca Swiss 6x9 view camera is the small one. It is perfectly compatible with the 6x9 graflock back and adapts like older 2"x3" and 2"1/2-3"1/2 (6,5x9cm) cut film backs, old press cut film backs or Linhof 6,5x9cm cut film backs that I have also.

Mechanically this Horseman back for the smaller 2"x3" graflock fits like the Mamiya RB 6x7 rollfilm back and the Mamiya 6x8 motor-driven rolfilm back.

To my eyes, film flatness of the Horseman 6x9 rollfilm back is excellent , but I use it only with view camera lenses closed down to f/11 or smaller apertures, rarely at f/8 and never at f/5.6 or wider.
At f/11 the depth of focus in 6x9, for far distant objects, with a very stringent criterium "c" of 60 microns for the circle of confusion, yields a depth of focus tolerance equal to +-N*c, with N=11, this yields +-660 microns. The Horseman back is much better than that. So : no problem, and I never noticed detrimental effects of film buckling in a 6x9 Horseman back.

[Donald Hutton]

Mark

I had a Horseman press for a while - I am pretty sure that the Horseman press backs are not Graflock compatible - they do not fit the later model Horsemans (980 on) and these later models do have Graflock compatible backs. The back I had worked well - seemed to be as good as any other Horseman back I have owned (currently have a 6X7, 6X9 and 6X12 for 4X5).

[george jiri loun]

According to my brochure there are, as Emmanuel said, basicaly 2 types - model 1 and model 3 (for 220 film) . These are made for a Graflok back. But there are different Grafloks - I needed to make some small changes on my Mamiya Press Graflok back so that the Horseman would fit - just a few washers and some work with a file. Generally the Horseman RFH are regarded as being among the best ones for the film flatness and ease of use.

[Oren Grad]

Sounds to me as though there are two different compatibility questions being discussed here:

1) Are current Horseman 6x9 backs Graflok-compatible? The answer is "sort of" - they're designed to be attached to the camera with standard Graflok clips, but there are problems with physical clearance on some cameras (e.g., Mamiya Press, some Graphics).

2) Are old Horseman backs compatible with the same cameras as new Horseman backs? Sounds like the answer is "no", although I don't have any experience with them myself.

[Ted Harris]

Actually there are FOUR different 6x9 backs and therein lies part of the problem:





1) There is a 120 and a 220 back that are generic 4x5 backs and should fit any graflok back with no problem.



2)There is a 120 and a 220 back that are specifically designed to fit the Horseman 6x9 cameras (e.g. VH). The Horseman catalogue is very clear that these backs will not fit the stndard 4x5 graflok/international back.



Sorry, but I am traveling and not near a Horseman catalogue to give you the model numbers. If Arne Correll reads this thread he may be able to add a bit more.

[Oren Grad]

Ted -

The four types to which you refer are all current products. Of these, the compatibility of the 2x3/6x9 (and 2x3/6x7) versions (Horseman models 1-4) is very broad but not universal among cameras with 2x3 Graflok-type backs because of physical fit issues apart from the Graflok clips per se. Of course, the 2x3 backs will not directly fit 4x5 cameras; you need the 4x5/6x9 and 4x5/6x7 holders (Horseman models 451-454) for that.

There was a very different type of 2x3/6x9 roll holder offered by Horseman perhaps 30+ years ago, of much heavier metal construction than the current models. I have seen these but not actually used one. Per Don's comment, these may not be broadly compatible.

Perhaps Mark can clarify which backs he's asking about...

[Mark McCarvill]

Thanks for the speedy replies, folks!

The film back I'm considering purchasing can be viewed at http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3846930701&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT.

Perhaps the photos will clarify things.

Thanks again

[tor kviljo]

Hello Mark

I hav used a few versions of the Horseman press - last the VHR. Very capable cameras. I used Mamiya RB 67 rollholders with the VHR which had the standard graflok 2"x3" back. Worked very nice. However, I recall that I tried to use mamiya RB backs also on one of the earlier Horseman that I had briefly - the 970 or the Pess I think it was (Also the press (whic is the earlies version I think) had 2x3 graflok locks). On this model, the graflock back were so designed that it only allowed a relatively narrow back to be seated properly. The mamiya RB back bulges out quite a lot on both sides of the graflok-footprint, and could not be mounted. I have never owned any of the original Horseman roll-film backs, but the design of the back on your link, looks as it would fit all the earlier Horseman's as it has a very narrow body, not much wider than the graflok-2"x3" footprint.

Good luck anyway!

(p.s.: why not go for a 4"x5"? - I finally got tired of trying to compose properly on that veeeery small GG screen of the Horseman)

[Oren Grad]

Mark -

Thanks for posting the link. That's definitely an old-style Horseman rollholder, NOT one of the current models. From the looks of it, I would NOT assume that it is Graflok-compatible. Unless someone else here who has experience using it can tell us that this is wrong, I would stay away, unless your intention is to use it on a compatible Horseman camera of comparable vintage.

[Mark McCarvill]

Thanks for confirming my doubts, Oren. I will pass on this one and wait for a current model. Once again, many thanks to all who posted replies.

A response to Tor's question about why not just go to 4x5: I'm new to large format and find that using roll film makes the transition from medium format easier.

[tor kviljo]

I can not be shure of course, but I think the ting is 2"x3" graflok compatible: the two grooves visible on each side of the chrome button next to the dark-slide is the grooves where the two-vinged graflok-lock-plate engages (the 2"x3" graflok mechanism have sliding locks that make contact with the back in two definite areas/groves on each side of the filmback, not along the whole rim of each side of the filmback as often seen on 4"x5" graflok-locks. Belive this is a system-design), and the raised rim/light trap crossing the short side of base plate/camera-facing end also look very familiar. Also- with the Horseman Press (first technical horseman 6x9 camera I belive) having grafloc-back, I would assume the backs they produced to be compatible for that camera.