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openhand
12-May-2014, 04:39
Hey there,

Long time photographer, both digi-wigi, 35mm and for the last year full time medium format. When I got in to medium I was very close to instead going to large. I'm glad I didn't at the time but it's been niggling at me and I have ideas for some 4x5 projects, as well as getting in to ambrotypes etc. I also nearly went super-pano, instead getting the complete opposite with a 6x6 Hassy 500cm.

I love the panoramic format and so I plan to spend lots of time with a 6x17 back on my 4x5 (6x12 at least). I'll probably also shoot LF negs too, but any old camera can do that.

I travel a heap, not interested in a view camera at all really and would prefer metal over wood for construction since I know it will get some rough treatment. I know the limitations of movement on a lot of the metal cameras and I'm not too fussed. Something compact would do the job well. I had my eye on a Toyo 45A / AII for a while but I haven't seen many crop up lately (I'm in Australia too, by the way!) and they seem to have jumped in price.

I've found a Horseman 45HF which I think will go for a fair penny under $1k. It has a few lenses. The thing is ugly as hell (Brown Leather yeugh) but I don't mind. No film backs however.

Just wondering if people would advise such a thing for a first camera. I like the fact it's small and seems pretty sturdy. I know it isn't perfect, no rotating back, limits on lenses, but I don't have a bath full of money to spend on the thing (No suggesting Linhof Technikas now folks) and it seems to cover all bases pretty well. A 6x17 back is another question altogether. They don't seem to come cheap and I'm not 100% the lenses will have proper coverage for that but I'll double check.

Is there anything I'm missing out on? Anything I should take in to consideration that has passed me by entirely?

Much appreciate any advice. I might have a look on the market here too and see what's going though unfortunately I don't have the time or post history behind me for that just yet.

Thanks for your time!

ic-racer
12-May-2014, 05:02
Horseman never made a 6x17 back for the 45HF, though I think Badger Graphic has a Horseman 6x17 back that fits a 5x7 camera for about $3000. Otherwise, in terms of metal field cameras, the 45HF is a good value and it can take the Horseman 6x12 back. I can't comment on the value of a $1000 kit without knowing which lenses are included.

djdister
12-May-2014, 05:37
Since 5 inches = 12.7 cm, I don't see how you could shoot a 6x17 cm image on a 4x5 camera. That said, if you have a 5x7, there is also the Canham 6x17 motorized roll film back for $1,345. It is made for the Canham 5x7, but may work on other 5x7 cameras.

openhand
12-May-2014, 05:37
Does the Dayi 617 back (http://www.bhcamera.us/dayi617back.php) work? It lists horseman as a fit on the website though I'm not sure if I'm looking at the wrong horseman for that.

edit: Sorry I just saw the last reply. You guys know better than me of course, but I had done reading in the past and thought I'd seen that people have pulled it off with 4x5 cameras and a lens with a good image circle. It folds out on its own little bellows for extra length too.

vinny
12-May-2014, 05:52
Since 5 inches = 12.7 cm, I don't see how you could shoot a 6x17 cm image on a 4x5 camera. That said, if you have a 5x7, there is also the Canham 6x17 motorized roll film back for $1,345. It is made for the Canham 5x7, but may work on other 5x7 cameras.

you CAN shoot 6x17 with a 4x5 camera, not everyone has been around long enough to see these crazy contraptions:)
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101237-4x5-camera-and-6x17-film-back

openhand
12-May-2014, 06:05
Thanks vinny, thought it was possible with this camera even though it's not the most ideal solution. I'd rather something I can fold up and take with me compared to a dedicated camera with a big nose cone that I'll never fit in my bag. That might sound a roundabout way of doing it, but I've thought it over quite a bit.

ic-racer, sorry I forgot to answer your question: It has a 65mm, 90mm and 150mm (with an extender 2x though I'm not too fussed with that), all Super Horseman I believe. Haven't found much info on those, but I've seen a couple of comments saying they're the newer, nicer version of Horseman's lenses. It could well go for under $1000 or maybe well over, it's a listing with a while to go but not much interest so far. Not many of these come up in Australia so it's hard to pick really.

vinny
12-May-2014, 06:07
there's no such thing as a 2x extender for LF lenses.
ok, i stand corrected. The best place to put that thing would be the closest trash can.

openhand
12-May-2014, 06:11
there's no such thing as a 2x extender for LF lenses.

Apologies, 2x teleconverter for the 150mm. Here's a link showing the item (http://www.galerie-photo.com/horseman-converter.pdf). I'd not seen one for large format before but apparently it works, albeit not too sharp.

I'm not too fussed about that item in any case, I usually shoot wide if anything. Very occasionally long, never normal!

ic-racer
12-May-2014, 06:45
Thanks vinny, thought it was possible with this camera even though it's not the most ideal solution. I'd rather something I can fold up and take with me compared to a dedicated camera with a big nose cone that I'll never fit in my bag. That might sound a roundabout way of doing it, but I've thought it over quite a bit.

ic-racer, sorry I forgot to answer your question: It has a 65mm, 90mm and 150mm (with an extender 2x though I'm not too fussed with that), all Super Horseman I believe. Haven't found much info on those, but I've seen a couple of comments saying they're the newer, nicer version of Horseman's lenses. It could well go for under $1000 or maybe well over, it's a listing with a while to go but not much interest so far. Not many of these come up in Australia so it's hard to pick really.

The 2x makes the 150 a 300mm, so it is not really a 'teleconverter.' It is a pretty high quality item, 6 or 7 elements, but it can be difficult to focus on the HF. I use the extended bellows back (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86618-Hands-on-Topcor-2x-Converter-amp-Horseman-FA-Extension-Back) (does this fit the HF, I don't know?)

The 65mm Horseman/Topcor was only made in 6x9 format, though it does just barely cover 4x5". You can focus it at infinity if you clip the front standard just hanging off the back of the focus track.

The 90mm and 150mm were made for both 6x9cm format and 4x5" format. The 6x9cm lenses are called "SUPER," the 4x5" lenses are called "LF". It would be better to have the 4x5 lenses if shooting 4x5 film.

115266

openhand
12-May-2014, 07:23
Thanks very much for the info ic-racer, I was looking for 4x5 info on the lenses so it makes sense I didn't show up with much about them. The guy has said he pretty much exclusively used the kit for shooting 6x12, so that explains it.

ic-racer
12-May-2014, 11:56
Thanks very much for the info ic-racer, I was looking for 4x5 info on the lenses so it makes sense I didn't show up with much about them. The guy has said he pretty much exclusively used the kit for shooting 6x12, so that explains it.

Yes, those "SUPER" 6x9cm lenses are designed to provide a lot of 'view camera' movements on 6x9 format and will also cover 6x12 pretty well. Does the kit come with the 6x12 back? That alone can be upwards of $500 USD.

openhand
16-May-2014, 03:26
Thanks for the reply ic. The 6x12 isn't included but he said he might throw it in. The price is heading up but it still looks like it might be a reasonable deal.

The one issue I have is that I really would like to be able to pull off 6x17 shots, which need a 179mm lens circle. I've done a fair bit of research and it turns out, out of all the 6x12 horseman lenses, the 'Super designation' means they are compatible (albeit only just it seems) with 4x5.

The largest image circle available is 160mm for the 150mm and I believe 90mm as well. The 65 is less again. Is there any way to improve the coverage of a large format lens? Sorry if that's a dumb question but I've not delved too deep in to 4x5 before - does a recessed board extend coverage or simply change the focus ability?

openhand
16-May-2014, 04:12
Well that was not quite the answer I was looking for.

ic-racer
16-May-2014, 04:13
Is there any way to improve the coverage of a large format lens?

Yes, get closer to the subject. The geometric rule of thumb is that at 1:1 the coverage is doubled.

If you want 6x17cm I'd probably not go with the Horseman, it is a lightweight specialized compact 4x5in camera. I'd get a much more inexpensive 5x7in kit with a 210mm lens. 210mm lenses with 5x7 coverage are very, very common on the used market.

openhand
16-May-2014, 04:51
Ah! Very useful info, thanks.

The reason that the HF had taken my fancy was that it is compact - I do fly about a bit and having something lightweight, even if it's not the ideal candidate for a job, is a worthwhile trade-off for me. I know that the 6x17 back isn't exactly small but I think the two will pack fairly flat which is useful.

A dedicated 6x17 might be better, but I feel I'd get more use out of something with at least a bit of versatility and have some ideas in mind for 4x5 as well. Also the odd shape of the 6x17s with the cones doesn't go well with packing either.

Basically all this mucking around and (sort of) disregarding your excellent advice is because I'm in a bit of a funny spot and know what shots I want to take, but not precisely what to take it on, just that it can't be too huge or funny-shaped haha.

My original thought was a Toyo 45A of some sort, though the Horseman FA looks like a solid 4x5 option too.

I'm not really helping myself out here, am I?

Thanks again racer.

ic-racer
16-May-2014, 06:28
Do you know if a 6x17 back actually will fit on a Horseman field camera? Also, I'm sure you have seen the (relatively) inexpensive dedicated 6x17 cameras; Gaoerseri, Fotoman and DAYI

openhand
16-May-2014, 07:14
I've seen the Dayi fit on the Horseman FA and I'm pretty sure the HF takes the same back? And yeah, I considered those dedicated ones. They are neat and would do the job I'm sure, but I figure I want to go 4x5 as well so spending a couple of hundred extra to cover both formats... maybe a compromise but also something I end up using more often and for more applications. I'll see how we go!

ic-racer
16-May-2014, 18:27
Ok, I see the "DAYI 6x17 6x14 6x12 Multi-Format Roll Film Back Linhof Wista TOYO 4x5" Camera" on ebay and suspect you are correct on that fitting the HF.
You would need a lens. Are you familiar with this list of lenses that will fit through the hole in the Horseman front standard: http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/lens_list.html

openhand
16-May-2014, 21:16
Thanks for that list racer, that's great! I'd seen a similar one on an old Horseman site but that seems much more comprehensive and has the image circle too. Much appreciated.

cgrab
21-May-2014, 08:58
One more thing to consider when sticking a 6x17 back on a 4x5 body is that this limits the choice of lenses due to the geometry of the setup. The film is set some centimetres back from where a 4x5 film would be, so you can't use very wide lenses, and it is not set back far enough to allow the use of longish lenses, and in between camera movements are limited.
Given that you need lenses covering at least a 178mm image circle for 6x17 without movements, you would have to choose lenses accordingly. Most of them would work with a metal 5x7 folder, lik an old Linhof Technika, to which you could add the 6x17 back. I did that with a Meopta Magnola, and it works, kind of, from 75mm to 600.
There are also dedicated 6x17 view cameras from Shen Hao.
It is probably heresy to say it on this forum, but for travel a X-Pan is really convenient. It doesn't hold a candle to 6x17 slides though, when things turn out as hoped for. Good luck and lots of enjoyment with your panoramic endeavours.
Christoph

openhand
22-May-2014, 04:19
Thanks for the answer Christoph, much appreciated. I am aware that there are limitations in both the back and proposed body. I think I'll learn to live with it - something I've done for myself in MF and Digital. I know a lot of people recommend a view camera as entry to LF due to the lack of limitations on movements and lenses and all that (this isn't what you were suggesting, but as an extreme example!) but I know that's not a route I would take. I sort of follow that thinking through - how will I get the most use of out of it? Is it pretty portable and packable? Then I'll get a lot of use - and I won't miss the movements because I wouldn't pack something big enough to have those movements at all!

My thinking was a small body, which is putting me in mind of a Horseman of some type, and a lens that will fold in to the body, just to reduce fuss, and again make sure I get the most out of it. When I moved to medium format I settled on a single lens and sort of forced myself to like and use that. And it works, I know it well, it doesn't take up much space and I'm spared GAS haha. Since then I've even dropped my digital kit down to a pretty basic walkaround and flash setup because I can't justify all the other stuff anymore.

I have certainly considered an X-pan and thanks for bringing it to mind as I haven't thought about it in a while. I do like the look of the things, never had the chance to use one though. I like the idea of interoperability between my cameras, so using the same 120 film across cameras, and also the huge negatives appeal haha.

I have a question for someone who might know. The Dayi style dedicated bodies. It looks like they have the same 6x17 back you'd attach to a 4x5? Something I considered was building or even (brave new world) 3D printing something of an experimental body to attach to a back. Is it the same between the Dayi 6x17 dedicated camera and the 6x17 large format back?