help with lens choice?

[Rank Amature]

I am new to this site and would like to get into large format cameras but know little about them yet. I would Like to take studio portraits with an 8x10 camera I will probably build - the building is part of the fun for me. I am wondering if a 300mm 5.6 lens might be a reasonable lens to begin with for portraits? I realize there are a million things I will need to learn and will probably add lenses if it all works out, but am only looking for a start with this. Thank you very much for any help you may give me!

[vinny]

Yup. That'll work.
Someone else will say it won't but yup, that'll work just fine. Try a search on lenses for 8x10.

[Mark Sawyer]

I'd say a 14 to 18 inch lens would be a tad better, but 12 inch is okay, and you'll want one sooner or later anyways, just because it's the "normal" lens on 8x10, so it's a good place to start.

[Rank Amature]

Thank you both! When you talk about a 12,14,or 18" lens, is that referring to an image circle? Thanks again!

[Bob Salomon]

Head and shoulder portraits? 300mm is too short.
Full length or ¾ portraits? 300mm will work.

A 300mm lens on 8x10 is a normal lens and will exhibit foreshortening like normal lenses do on smaller formats. So you will get enlarged noses, chins, foreheads, etc on H&S shots. That 300mm on 8x10 is just like an 80mm on 6x6cm or a 44/50mm on 35mm. What focal length lens would you use on what you shoot now? Then we can give you an equivalent. The problem is if you like a 105mm on 35mm the eqivalent is an 800mm on 8x10. If you like a 180mm on 6x7 the equivalent on 810 is about 700mm.

The above comparisons are based on the horizontal angle of view for the above formats and lenses. If you want it based on the long film dimensions then the equivalents are:

300mm on 810 = 145mm on 4x5 = 90mm on 6x7 = 70mm on 6x6 = 44mm on 35mm. 300mm on 810 covers 44.5°. So it is a normal focal length lens.

[Bob Salomon]

Thank you both! When you talk about a 12,14,or 18" lens, is that referring to an image circle? Thanks again!

They mean focal length.
12" = 305mm so you don't want that, it is basically the same problem as a 300mm.
14" = 356mm so still too short for H&S
18" = 457mm so that is better for H&S

Of course, if you are shooting portraits with 810 you will not be at infinity. So you will need more extension and bellows then you would at infinity. And the closer you come the more light you will need. If you are at near 1:1 you will need almost twice the extension as at infinity and almost an additional 2 stops of light.

Does the camera you have have that capability? Do you have that much strobe lighting? You wouldn't want your subject to sweat from tungsten or quartz lighting.

[Rank Amature]

Bob,
Thank you for that clarification - I guess I have a lot more reading to do! I was thinking more along the lines of head and shoulder shots so I guess I will have to think about a longer lens. I am planning on building a camera and had thought of getting the lens first and testing it with a quick mock-up to see what the final camera should be. Probably not the smartest way to go, reinventing what everyone else has already done, but I do like challenges. I really appreciate all of you taking the time to help me. Thanks again -

[Armin Seeholzer]

From the technical standpoint is Bob right, but from the practical most portraitists which I know gow a bit shorter as the format gets bigger. My longest lens is a 610 mm APO Nikkor which I would never use for a 8x10 Portait much to long to handle easily not to think of the bellows extension.
A 360mm works extremely well as a portrait lens it works even for head shoots but my preferred one is a 480mm for only head shots its for very tight shoots to!

Cheers Armin

[Rank Amature]

Armin,
Thank you too for your input. I guess like everything, we are all going to have certain preferences, which is why all of our work can be so different. I know it will take me a while and many mistakes to get to where I think I want to go, but I think with all of your advice I won't be too far out of the park in this range of lenses. I'm sure with any of these choices I will be able to find a use for it, even if it wasn't what I initially intended. Thanks again and have a great weekend -

[John Kasaian]

If you're on a budget and don't object to buying used there are many options open to you. The Kodak Commercial Ektar and Schneider Symmar were standards for commercial photographers at one time. Goerz Dagors and Wollensak Velostigmats are also very fine lenses. Ilex made a 15" 375mm that I think is way undervalued for the prices I've seen them go for.
The prize I think for you would be finding a triple convertible like a Wollensak 1A ---long, short and standard focal lengths all in one lens, depending on how you configure the elements.
They are out there---happy hunting!

[Rank Amature]

Thanks John! I will add them to the hunt, and it is great to have a better idea of what I should hunt for. I really appreciate you help with this.

[Dan Dozer]

Just to throw in my two cents worth here. I shoot a lot of portrait type of work with the 8 x 10 in a studio type of setting. There are a lot of options for you with in the 360mm range, and as others have said, this size is widely used for protrait type of work. If you only want sharp focus images, then the more modern lenses might work best because they will normally always come with shutters. A couple of the more modern lenses that would probably come with shutters that can give you a more soft focus look might be the Kodak Portrait lens (wish I had one) and the Imagon. One sharp focus lens that doesn't normally come with a shutter is the Heliar. It is my favorite lens for sharp focus images and it produces a beautiful Bokeh with the out of focus areas in the image. Note that many people believe that the Bokeh effect of the Heliar is to a certain extent created by the large number of blades in the iris and that if you take it apart and put it in a shutter, you will loose some of that look.

However, in looking at more soft focus type of images, there is a very wide variety of options in the older lenses. Different lenses create the soft focus look through different ways from the old Petzval lens (which isn't a flat field lens) to the other lenses with adjustment knobs/dials which actually shift the focal plane. If you're going to go this route, do a lot of research on the older lenses because there are so many options and many more opinions on what is best. A lot will depend on how much money you want to spend. Please be advised that collecting the old portrait lenses is extremely addictive.

The challenge is that the older lenses don't normally come with shutters. So, you have two options - a packard shutter, or manually uncovering and covering the lens with the lens cap (or suitable substitute). A packard shutter will give you a shutter speed up to about 1/20th of a second. You can also open/close it manually with the bulb to get slower shutter speeds. Packard shutters work well - the only challenge is figuring out how to attach one to your lens/camera.

Most of the strobe studio type of work I do I use a much simplier method of exposure than that. I simply darken the room after the image is set up, take the lens cap of, fire my strobe, and replace the lens cap. As long as the room is fairly dark, the one second or so of residual ambiant light in the room is so far over powered by the strobe that you don't have to worry about it. This approach allows me to use any of the old shutter-less lenses and not worry about exposure.

For just starting out, I would recommend that you just look around for a fairly standard lens that covers 8 x 10 and play around with it. With a litle searching, you should be able to fin something for $100 (such as an ilex or Turner Reich) or less.

My advice on building your own camera (having designed and built my own 8 x 20 camera) - the most difficult part is normally the camera back due to the critical aspect of film plane position of the ground glass in relation to the film holders. I would suggest that you consider buying an old camera back that takes standard 8 x 10 holders and build the camera up from there.

Hope this all helps.

[Rank Amature]

Dan,
Thank you very much! I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to write such a helpful and detailed response. The people on this site are so generous with their time and knowledge that it is very encouraging to me as a beginner. I have decided to buy a Toyo 4x5 to start with, giving me more time to understand and build a larger camera (which, of course, allows me to play in the meantime!). Your help, along with that from everyone else, will help me find a suitable lens. Your suggestion of starting with a back for the larger camera is also very helpful. I really appreciate you help and thank you again for getting me going in the right direction.

[John Kasaian]

If the Toyo has the bellows length to focus it, you might look for a Schneider 240 G Claron which will serve as a long lens for your 4x5 and a very useful wide lens on a 8x10. Also, the 162mm Wollensak Velostigmats seem to me to be way under valued for such a nice 4x5 portrait lens, then there are the 203mm Kodak Ektars and also the Schneider convertible Symmar plus there's a boat load of 210mms from all the big companies readily available on the used market. Any of these should get you started.

[Luis-F-S]

If the Toyo has the bellows length to focus it, you might look for a Schneider 240 G Claron which will serve as a long lens for your 4x5 and a very useful wide lens on a 8x10.

Also try to look for a 16" or 19" Artar, great on 8x10 will also work on 4x5 if you have enough bellows. While you're at it, a 12" Dagor is probably the most useful all-round lens on an 8x10. Typically can be found in shutter for a reasonable price. L

[Jim Galli]

F9 ex Graphic Arts lenses are superb for landscapes, but save yourself some trouble and limit your search to the faster lenses for portraiture. f4.5 would be my minimum speed. Otherwise the out of focus areas on either side of the selected portrait area won't look good.

A 15 - ish inch Bausch and Lomb 11X14 Series 1C f4.5 Tessar is a great place to begin. Also research Packard Shutters. many of the old ones have a flash sync which can solve most of your problems shooting with older cheaper barrel lenses. The Packard lives permanently inside the camera and can be used on most or all of the lenses you'll end up with.

If you're stuck on 12", look for a Gundlach Radar 8X10 in a Betax 5 shutter. Also a great old sleeper that is f4.5 and has a fine look for someone starting out in portraiture.

[Rank Amature]

John, Louis and Jim,
Wow - my head is starting to spin with the possibilities! I have been amazed at how many varibles there are in the large format world and a little intimidated about learning enough about any one of them. I guess the best thing to do is start somewhere and learn to deal with one variable at a time. It is nice to have all of your recomendations with specific lenses at this point, as I look at them on e-bay and they all seem a mystery to me. Thanks to all of you for adding to the list, as I am sure some will come up and others may not, and having more to choose from certainly helps me. Happy shooting to you all and thanks again!

[Alan Gales]

Yousuf Karsh used a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar for most of his work. From what I heard Richard Avedon used a 360mm Schneider for a lot of his work.

I really like my 14" Commercial Ektar. It's sharp without being clinically sharp. I also own a 19" Red Dot Artar but I have not yet tried it for portraiture. It's pretty sharp! If I had the money I'd like to try a Dagor and maybe a Heliar.

There are a lot of great portrait lenses out there for 8x10. Check out Jim Galli's site for soft focus lenses. The guy will amaze you!

[jp]

Rank, there are many options because you're stepping into 150 years of continuous history, during which style and art and lenses changed a great deal.

[Rank Amature]

Alan and JP,
Thanks for the additional info and for taking the time to share it. I got my 4x5 camera yesterday and can't wait to try it! Have a great weekend and thanks again.

[Bill_1856]

Start with a used 4x5 before you spend time and effort (and money) to go to 8x10.

[Peter De Smidt]

Fujinon 420L would be a good choice. They come in a modern shutter, they're reasonably priced, and they're good performers. If I were building a camera for this purpose, I'd base it off of a portrait camera, such as a Century View No.9, instead of off of a field camera. In other words, non-collapsible, back movements and focusing...

[Rank Amature]

Bill and Peter,
First, thank you both for you help and advice. Bill - I decided I would start with a used 4x5 for the reasons you list and because I want to get my feet wet while I look for a lens for an 8x10 that I want to build. As you mention, it will be a lot cheaper to screw up small stuff.
Peter,
Thanks for the reference to both the lens and the camera. The work I want to do with it is portrait work, so I think you are right in terms of not needing a folder. Thanks again to you both - I really appreciate your input.
Mark

[Dan Dozer]

Rank - one important thing to consider while working with your 4 x 5 and portrait work is whether or not you will need front swing and/or tilt. A lot of people say you don't need it with portrait work, but I use it all the time on my 8 x 10 Deardorff. Play around with the 4 x 5 to get your feet wet. One thing to keep in mind when making the switch to the bigger format is that the depth of field is likely to be less than you may be used with with 35mm or 120. It's also less switching from 4 x 5 ot 8 x 10. That might factor into your decision on whether swing and tilt is important to your 8 x 10 design. Leaving them off makes your design quite a lot simpler, but once you don't have it, you might wish you did.

[Rank Amature]

Dan,
Not knowing anything about it, I was thinking that swings and tilts were just for architecture until I played around with it last night. Now I have a much better idea of what those components can mean. The more I learn the more I realize just how little I know... Thanks -
Mark

[Francisco J. Fernández]

Hi Rank.


Sorry I can not speak good English , I use google translator . I try to write short, simple sentences to not have many faults , or incongruous words.

I'm sick and sometimes I can not walk , so fabricate my cameras ( I need to cameras weigh very little) .
The mixing fabricate parts from various brands ( linhof , Sinar , Cambo ) and then use lensboard adapter, because I have made ​​several very different cameras .

The other cameras you see on my facebook wall , I also I have built with my own design .

Not as uploading some photos here . But if you use facebook you can see on my wall some of my designs cameras .



https://www.facebook.com/francisco.fernandez.102/photos_all




I have made two cameras (one 4x5 and one 8x10 ) wood , are like a puzzle are sold very cheap ... Brand BULLDOG .

I 've modified the 2 cameras, with parts linhof and Sinar .




You can see that camera is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9z-gIofWC0&feature=player_embedded

but as you can see in the photos from my facebook, my designs are simple cameras , sometimes delete all the movements , and I only left the option to focus the image. with that, the camera weighs very little .

The lens , as you 've heard many interesting things. And do not think I can improve information , they have provided companions .

I hope my ideas about design cameras, are of interest . If you need any clarification , I gladly will.


regards

[Rank Amature]

Francisco,
Thank-you very much! I hadn't thought of piecing together parts from other cameras, which would certainly make many things easier. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me and for posting those links. Thanks again and have a great week -
Mark

[bruce cahn]

Conventional wisdom says that a 12" or 300mm is too short, but it isn't. My preference was a 360mm, but I got lots of good pictures with a 300. If you go for the longer lenses make sure your bellows is long enough.

[Rank Amature]

Thanks Bruce! I am still searching for a lens that will work and that I can afford, and I really appreciate your help -
Mark