Dip n' dunk 4x5

[Shootar401]

Currently I'm using Mod 54 to develop my 4x5 B/W, C41 and E6. And trays to develop my 5x7 and 8x10 B/W. I'd like to standardize on tanks and racks for all 3 formats. I used them before but came across some surge marks that I'd rather not revisit if possible.

Does anybody know a good hanger to eliminate the surge marks?

[vinny]

The kodak hangers work fine. It's your agitation technique which is the problem. Very little movement is required to put fresh developer in contact with the film.

[Shootar401]

LAst time I used dip and dunk it was whit 5x7 and I had some surge marks on my film. I thought I went slow enough, but maybe I should lift and dunk it a little slower?

[brucetaylor]

I use the Kodak hangers for 8x10 and 4-up 4x5. I have not had uneven development problems, I subscribe to Vinny's theory, "Very little movement is required to put fresh developer in contact with the film." I rock the tank moderately for agitation, works for me.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Go faster, not slower. The marks (AKA "bromide drag") are caused by exhausted developer remaining in contact with the emulsion for too long and producing a localized restraining effect.

When I agitate, I pull the hangers completely out of the solution and tilt to one side to drain, and put them back in in the tank. Next cycle I do the same, tilting to the opposite side, and so on, just like Adams recommends in The Negative, and I haven't had any problems with surge marks.

[Ron McElroy]

I agitate in a similar manner as David with no surge marks. In my processing I agitate once every minute and this takes about 7 to 10 seconds to complete.

[BetterSense]

I used to use kodak hangers and never found the magic agitation technique that always gave even development. I went back to tray processing.

[Richard Wasserman]

I found hangers to be developer dependent. Replenished XTOL worked fine, but they did not get on with Pyrocat. Since I really want to use Pyrocat I now use a Slosher.

[bob carnie]

Plus one

Go faster, not slower. The marks (AKA "bromide drag") are caused by exhausted developer remaining in contact with the emulsion for too long and producing a localized restraining effect.

When I agitate, I pull the hangers completely out of the solution and tilt to one side to drain, and put them back in in the tank. Next cycle I do the same, tilting to the opposite side, and so on, just like Adams recommends in The Negative, and I haven't had any problems with surge marks.

[Tony Lakin]

I use nitrogen burst agitation for sheet film, perfectly even negs every time:)

[Daniel Stone]

I use nitrogen burst agitation for sheet film, perfectly even negs every time:)

If I had the space and plumbing potential, I'd do the same thing Tony. Deep tanks w/ nitrogen burst, ALL. DAY. LONG

However, I'd use the X-Ray style film holders, as they only clip the corners of the film(like dip-n-dunk film hangers for commercial machines), not the Kodak "frame" style ones that have given me surge issues whenever I've used them.

-Dan

[RMiksell]

Haven't had any issues with kodak hangers in 8x10 tanks for HP5+ and TMY in replinished xtol. I use the same method as David, one cycle per minute for black and white films. Haven't tried C41 or E6 yet, need to get the chemistry. Will probably wait until I get my darkroom set up in my basement (using my garage right now, too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter, but spring and fall are perfect). Nitrogen burst would be a nice setup though. If my local pro lab ever decides to stop processing film I may have to buy their dip and dunk setup from them.

[Tony Lakin]

Hi Dan
My hangers were made in England by Pro-Co they are moulded plastic, the short edges of the sheets are held in grooves the long edges with little mushroom pegs, I have used channel hangers, clip hangers and tension hangers but these plastic Pro-Co ones work faultlessly.

[Pete Suttner]

What's a sloshed?

[Richard Wasserman]

Slosher (one example)— http://stores.photoformulary.com/formulary-sheet-film-developing-trays/

[Daniel Stone]

Hi Dan
My hangers were made in England by Pro-Co they are moulded plastic, the short edges of the sheets are held in grooves the long edges with little mushroom pegs, I have used channel hangers, clip hangers and tension hangers but these plastic Pro-Co ones work faultlessly.

Hi Tony,
I seem to recall having seen or heard about those before("Pro-Co" is new to me however). I know some folks who work with machining plastic/acetal materials on a regular basis, so I might have to see about designing some of my own up, as I like the design.
One question however: have you had any issues relating to chemistry flow(or lack of flow) on the base/non-emulsion side of the film? Looks like the rigid plastic has no recess or cutout to allow for chemistry to access/clear the base side?

Just wondering. I shoot primarily color film at the moment(when I get a chance to shoot at all now), and down the line, I want to take my C-41(since E-6 is looking like it's coming to the end of the tunnel) processing in-house when I return to more shooting. Even for b/w, I like the edge effect with reduced/minimized agitation development techniques, and since I don't shoot doubles, I want to make sure my film doesn't get scratched, even if I'm super careful. Jobo Expert drums are nice and all, and have worked well for me. However, I just get a 100% feeling about using the deep-tank/nitrogen burst method for film processing.

-Dan

[Tony Lakin]

Hi Dan
The shapes in which the pegs are centrally located are raised which allows circulation of the chemistry to the back of the film, I only do mono now, however I used to run a commercial E6 line and never had any issues at all emulsion side or reverse, however being rather over cautious after removing the sheets from the hanger/holders I give them a final wash in a tray using a Kodak tray siphon followed by Photo-flo.

[ShannonG]

Go faster, not slower. The marks (AKA "bromide drag") are caused by exhausted developer remaining in contact with the emulsion for too long and producing a localized restraining effect.

When I agitate, I pull the hangers completely out of the solution and tilt to one side to drain, and put them back in in the tank. Next cycle I do the same, tilting to the opposite side, and so on, just like Adams recommends in The Negative, and I haven't had any problems with surge marks.


yup yup,,thats the method i use and have never seen these so called surge marks.

[vinny]

yup yup,,thats the method i use and have never seen these so called surge marks.

I read Ansel's books, followed his instructions, and got surge marks plenty of times. It is more likely to happen with certain films/developers for sure. I was using rodinal and pmk with films like efke 25 ilford fp4, and classicpan 400.

[Luis-F-S]

Go faster, not slower. The marks (AKA "bromide drag") are caused by exhausted developer remaining in contact with the emulsion for too long and producing a localized restraining effect.

When I agitate, I pull the hangers completely out of the solution and tilt to one side to drain, and put them back in in the tank. Next cycle I do the same, tilting to the opposite side, and so on, just like Adams recommends in The Negative, and I haven't had any problems with surge marks.

Exactly how Oliver Gagliani taught in his workshops. I suspect he learned from Ansel. L

[Mark Sampson]

Oddly enough, that is Kodak's recommendation. Get a copy of their (long-gone) publication "Photography with Large-Format Cameras" for the full set of directions. They are so good that Adams and Gagliani followed them...
I'd also say to avoid the 4-up 4x5 Kodak hangers. Gave up trying to solve surge mark problems with those. Single 4x5 hangers are easy to use.