first LF camera--toyo 45a vs. horseman 45fa

[Cindy_4701]

Hi,

I have really learned a lot from reading prior posts here--thank you to all of you who took the time to post. I am a photo major who is just making the transition from MF to LF. I have considered so many cameras that my head is spinning, but I shoot mostly outdoors, landscapes and urban environments. Finally, I decided a view camera was best. I started off with the idea of a Crown Graphic, then, listening to the advice of various owners, I thought I would get something that would allow me to learn more about movements and to use them. Somehow, I felt more comfortable with metal rather than wood--things just happen when I shoot and I need something that I don't have to worry about too much. Knowing my work, my professors have suggested lenses in the 90-135 range. So, I have come up with two alternatives, a Toyo 45a for 695, with trial period and warranty, or a Horseman FA 45--it's 1200 with 5 lensboards, included a recessed one. I was about to decide between the two, very happy that I had found them from reputable dealers, and then read here in past posts, that the use of lenses is limited with a Horseman, most people were down on the camera, it seemed like. There is also an opportunity for a Wisner Technical for about the same price as the Horseman--so, I would be happy to hear any responses. I am spinning again.

Oh, and any suggestions for a first lens that doesn't cost a gazillion dollars? a 90, a 120 (they seem very expensive), or a 135?

Thanks to everyone for listening to a beginner who has only taken two photographs with a 4x5. I feel like I'm trying to figure out something that I haven't seen or experienced yet.

[Cindy_4701]

Sorry, I meant a field camera, not a view camera.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Cindy:

Both are fine starter cameras. I have used both, but I would recommend the Toyo for several reasons.

First, the Toyo has more usable bellows draw. I use lenses from 75mm to 300mm on the Toyo. The maximum draw on the Horseman is about 235mm. The Horseman also becomes difficult for short lenses. Because the lens sits closer to the bed, the bed intrudes into vertical shots with wide angle lenses, forcing one to turn the camera body on its side. A 75mm is very difficult to use on the Horseman.

Second, the rear swing and tilt on the Toyo are far more usable. The Horseman uses a Linhof style back, where swing and tilt are accomplished by floating the back on 4 rods. It works, but it much less intuitive for a beginner, and much more difficult to achieve only one movement.

Finally, the larger lensboard on the Toyo makes it much easier to adjust lens controls. This is exacerbated for short lenses. There are no practical recessed boards for the Horseman. The 12mm recessed board for the Toyo is very easy to use and produces more movement capability.

The Horseman is lighter, and it does have center rather than base tilts on the front standard, but I think the other advantages of the Toyo outweigh (no pun intended) these advantages.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Forgot to add that although I have added Arca-Swiss equipment, I still have and use my Toyo 45A. It is a real tank in the field and has never let me down.

[Gem Singer]

Hi Cindy,

The two cameras you mentioned are fine cameras, but , at the prices you were quoted, they are not bargains. A Toyo 45A, at $695 is probably a well- worn older model. The Horseman FA, at $1200, is a steep price to pay for your first LF field camera. Both cameras have minimal bellows extensions (in the 300mm. range).

I realize that you stated your preferrence for a metal flat bed folding field camera, but consider a lighter weight wooden field camera with a longer bellows, additional features, and more movement capability. For example, a 4x5 Shen Hao can be purchased, brand new, for less than the price of the older Toyo 45A you mentioned. Use the money you save to purchase a good previously owned lens in the 135-180 focal length, as your first lens. You can add a 90 wide angle lens and/or a 210 or 300 long lens, later.

As always, I recommend calling Jim (and only Jim) at Midwest Photo Exchange (www.mpex,com). He can package a Shen Hao, along with a fine previously owned lens, at a price that will fit your budget. He is knowledgeable, helpful, and easy to deal with.

[Sharon S.]

Wouldn't some of this be dependent upon which lenses you have? Some of the field cameras don't seem to be able to handle lenses with large rear elements like a Schneider 90mm SA XL. It's my favorite lens and I'd hate to give it up because a field camera couldn't handle it. I'm curious.

Dimbulb

[Armin Seeholzer]

Hi

I own a Horseman HF the pre version of the FA and I like it alot!
But I'm shure it is not for everyone but it is a very nice camera. But I would recommend a Linhof Technika V or IV or even better a Master Tech. It is larger and heavier then the Horseman but more universal!
It is of course expensiver but its the only field wich is really universal and precise and it holds for some lifetimes!

[Edward (Halifax,NS)]

Can anyone think of a reason why a Fujinon W 135mm f/5.6 wouldn't be a good first lens? Fuji lenses have a reputation of being as sharp at the other 3 main manufacturers and it has unreal image circle (228mm). They are also quite affordable ($300-$350).

[Linas Kudzma]

Cindy,

I second Edwards suggestion of a Fujinon W 135mm f/5.6. This was my first lens for 4x5 and is still my favorite. Affordable, super sharp, covers up to 5x7 and slightly wide/normal remains my most used focal length.

[steve simmons]

Here is some reading that will hlp

Using the View Camera is a book I wrot

or

User's Guide o the View Camera by Jim Stone

and some of the free articles on the View amera magazine web site

www.vewcamera.com

and hit the Free Articles link on te home page

steve simmons

[steve simmons]

Here is a spell checked version of the above answer

Here is some reading that will help

Using the View Camera is a book I wrote

or

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

and some of the free articles on the View Camera magazine web site

www.viewcamera.com

and hit the Free Articles link on the home page

steve simmons

[jnantz]

cindy -

don't forget that toyo give a student discount for buying a new camera :)

you might consider wollensaks and older schneider lenses. i have had very good luck finding them for not too much money on FEEbay or through dealers like KEH or equinoxphotographic(.com). i have used wollensak and older schneiders since the mid 80s and never had a problem at all. they render black and white as well as color well, and will fit well in a student budget.
good luck!

-john

[Paul Shambroom]

The Horseman is a fine camera, and if you want small and lightweight it is your best choice. People sometimes put too much emphasis on range of movements and usable extreme lenses. Most landscape and portrait work can (should) be done with very limited movements, and a beginner such as yourself is not likely to buy expensive lenses (either long or wide) that will challenge this camera.

[Chris Mallison]

Cindy, Don't give up on that Graphic idea just yet! But look for a Super Speed Graphic which has COMPLETE movements on the front standard that exceed many more expensive brands. No back movements, but for a beginner this can be a blessing also. They are metal which you indicated is a plus for you. Built to last and they don't have to be treated with kid gloves. In combination with the Kodak 127mm Ektar lens, this makes an extremely compact package that produces fine results. Both camera and lens, as well as a Polaroid back can be had for around $500. I use lenses from 90 to 210 on mine with plenty of flexibility. If you're likely to stay in the 90 - 240 range, this could be the camera you want. You will eventually outgrow this camera, but that may be years from now. In conclusion, this is where the bang for the buck is.

[Michael Jones]

Go with the Toyo.

As your first camera, you will never notice the difference between the two cameras. Later, you may, but then you can sell the Toyo, if appropriate, and get features you need.

Most importantly, with your apparent budget, if you buy the Toyo you have an extra $500 to buy film to make images. And you learn by photographing. Good luck.

Mike

[Chris Gittins]

Since you're considering the Horseman FA, you might also want to check out the Wista SP and Wista VX. (One has rear "micro-swing" and the other doesn't, don't remember which is which. I have got the one with.) I chose the Wista over the Horseman. Midwest Photo had a used one in very good condition for a reasonable price. I love the Wista - all the movements I could ever want and it's built like a tank - not heavy, just very sturdy.

Lenses: I have a 90/6.8 Angulon which just barely covers 4x5. Got it for about $150 on eBay last year. Caltar lenses can be good bargains. Look for ones that are rebranded Schneiders or Rodenstocks, e.g., I believe Caltar-S's are Symmar-S's. You need to do a little homework to see which is what but the Caltars tend to sell for a fraction of the price of the bigger names.

Chris

[Cindy_4701]

Hi everyone,

Wow--so much energy about LF photography, thank you all so much for your replies. I will consider the pro's and con's you have all brought up, but it doesn't sound like the choice itself will matter as much as starting to photograph with one of them. I've come across the Fuji Fujinon-W 135/f. 5.6 and will look at it again--it is reasonably priced. I will also take a look at the Wista at Midwest. I am really not an equipment crazy, and once I get the camera then the fun starts--my K1000 served me well for years, and I'm sure that whatever camera I buy, it will become part of my life too. I shoot everything from fake palm trees in front of a casino (that brought security out, even though it was 7AM and it wasn't open yet!), to panoramas of airbrush nail displays, to kitschy store fronts--my work is exclusively in color and I look forward to LF because I like to make photographs that have way too much information, that make the eye ache when you look at them, with colors that pop. So that is where I am trying to get to with the LF camera, at least that's what I'm shooting right now. I picked up Steve Simmon's book and Leslie Stroebels book at the library just today, and it was so cool to get a response from Steve himself! Thanks, and I look forward to being part of this group here.

Cindy

[Gem Singer]

Cindy,

When you contact Midwest, be sure to ask for Jim and tell him that you saw the recommendation on this forum. Jim is one of the owners of Midwest and will give you a break on the price. He also has a couple of Fuji 135W's. Packaging a camera and lens is the most economical way to purchase previously owned equipment from Midwest.

[Jim Rice]

Just to muddle things a bit more, I've been VERY happy with my Wisner Tech. It isn't the most wide angle friendly camera on the block, until you learn to use the geared rear tilt and then straighten up the back with the arms (thanks, again, to whomever on here told me about that trick). It also has plenty of draw (I can focus to about six feet with my 16.5" ((420mm)) RD Apo-Artar). And I really really like the geared tilt. Also, it's really pretty. I can also heartily reccomend Jim at Midwest.

[David Karp]

I agree on the Fujinon W 135. I have the 125mm version, and it is my favorite lens.

If you feel that you want to choose between the Toyo and the Horseman, I would vote for the Toyo as the more versatile camera. Whatever you buy, make sure it is in good condition.

As always, I second Eugene's recommendation of Jim at Midwest Photo. He is a good guy, very knowledgable and fair. I believe that I saw a Toyo 45A on his website the other day. It would be worth investigating. You can call him at 614-261-1264. (I have no connection to MPEX, just a very satisfied repeat customer.)

Good luck.

[Robert Ley]

Hi Cindy,
I don't really know how much experience you have in LF, but you should consider your first camera as not your last. I cut my teeth on a Super Graphic and got really hooked after over thirty years of taking pictures with 35 and medium format. I moved up to a Wista VX and really love this fine camera.
It is a fine field camera and has interchangeable bellows, both bag and extentension bellows. It has all the front and rear movements that you could ask for and uses the popular Linhof style lensboards. As to lens, the 135mm is a great first lens and the Fuji is a nice lens as is the Wide Field Ektar that I use. You can also get a good idea as to the the relative worth of a camera and lenses by checking out Ebay. You can find out what the market will currently bear in prices and not be taken advantage of . There are advantages to buying from a dealer and I second Jim at Midwest. The most important thing is that you not get too hung up on equipment. Get out there and expose some film and make some beautiful images.

[David Karp]

Cindy,

Sorry, my statement about the Fujinon was not clear. I agree that the quality of the Fujinon 135mm is excellent, based on my experience with the similarly designed 125mm. Since you mentioned the 120mm focal length, you might want to consider a 125mm Fujinon, but be aware that you give up some image circle with the wider focal length lens. I think MPEX has some of these available, so you can try them out too.

[Brian Ellis]

Good advice about not thinking your first camera will be your last so there's no need to agonize over the decision (as I made the mistake of doing with my first one). I'd bet that at least 80% of the people who have been using large format extensively for more than say five years are no longer using their first camera as their primary camera. So your own thought of just buying something and starting to photograph is a good one.

I'd add only one thought to what others have said very well. Many of us have found that we photograph differently with large format than we did with smaller formats so I think flexibility, especially in bellows length, is important. I wouldn't buy either of the cameras you mention because of their restricted bellows length. For me, a 15 inch bellows is the minimum because that allows use of a 300mm normal (i.e. non-telephoto) lens without undue restriction on focusing close. You may not use a lens that long very often but when you need it you need it.

[Glenn Kroeger]

Well, I use a 300mm all the time on the Toyo 45A, and while I cannot do macro work with it, I don't find that it unreasonably limits my close focusing. When employing tilts, I can focus the foreground to a couple of meters. If I am that close, I can use my 120 or 180 for closer work. I will gladly exchange that last two inches of bellows draw for much easier working and better movements with a 75mm lens rather than fighting scrunched up bellows, or worse, having to change to wide-angle or bag bellows in the field.

I agree with other posters that a 135mm is a great starting point. Aside from the Fuji 125, other 120's are expensive or have limited coverage. I see lots of excellent 135mm lenses for sale at very reasonable prices.

[d.s.]

My first 4x5 was and still is the horseman 45 fa. It's stout, and dependable, and does everything i need it to do. That being said, I wish it had a longer bellows for the reasons mentioned above.,,, and I wish it had a larger hole in the front standard for the rear element of the lens to fit through, as this limits the use of lenses with large rear elements. (fast wides.) I use a 75 mm 6.8 and it can be tough but it's doable.

d