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swmcl
27-Apr-2014, 17:35
Hello again,

I am wanting to hear the thoughts of people who have tried to give a partially filled container a squirt of a gas to remove the oxygen. CO2 is cheap and available in small pressurised containers for the aquarium business (it is used to give some boost to the plant life in the aquarium). Nitrogen might be found somewhere too - I haven't tried yet. The noble gases are found in the wine preserving business where (of course) they make all sorts of claims about the efficacy of using a noble gas ...

If one is removing oxygen won't CO2 suffice ? Perhaps for only a few chemicals - a developer or a fixer but not both ?

Experiences ?

Mark Woods
27-Apr-2014, 17:57
I decant the developer and replenisher. Whichever one is being used I use nitrogen to evacuate the oxygen & quickly cap the bottle. I've been able to keep the chemicals remain good. I don't worry about the other chemicals. I use to lose the developer about 3/4 through the bottle.

swmcl
27-Apr-2014, 18:18
Mark,

Nitrogen might be a more difficult thing to obtain in small batches. Is there a reason you didn't use CO2 in particular ?

Cheers,

Ian Gordon Bilson
27-Apr-2014, 19:58
With CO2 you run the risk of acidifying your solutions. A better choice would be butane gas.

BetterSense
27-Apr-2014, 19:59
What about cans of "air" sold for cleaning electronics? I believe they contain some fluorocarbon.

Mark Woods
27-Apr-2014, 22:38
I use the small tanks of nitrogen from a welding supply company. (I had to buy my first tank, then they give me another that is already filled.) The refills cost about $32 (tax including) for the small tank. It lasts about a year, or more. I use it when I load sheets of film & when I put negs into the enlarger. Sometimes I need to blow off the paper. I do very little retouching. I have the regulator set at 90 psi. It works great and is very inexpensive compared to the small cans of some non-disclosed type of gas.

I hope this helps. Oh, it's inert.

ArgentixCa
28-Apr-2014, 05:32
Just like that, adding glass marbles into the bottle will rise the level and leave the air out.
Unless there are some chemical properties that may damage the products, I never had any problem with the marbles.

Cheers!

Ken Lee
28-Apr-2014, 06:45
If you're operating a commercial lab, I can understand the need to keep a lot of chemicals around. If not, then there are plenty of formulas which can be prepared as concentrates and diluted before use (like Rodinal, HC-110, Pyrocat HD) and other formulas that can be mixed in small quantities just prior to use. There's nothing quite as fresh (and worry-free) as... freshly mixed :)

ic-racer
28-Apr-2014, 09:40
Hello again,

I am wanting to hear the thoughts of people who have tried to give a partially filled container a squirt of a gas to remove the oxygen. CO2 is cheap and available in small pressurised containers for the aquarium business (it is used to give some boost to the plant life in the aquarium). Nitrogen might be found somewhere too - I haven't tried yet. The noble gases are found in the wine preserving business where (of course) they make all sorts of claims about the efficacy of using a noble gas ...

If one is removing oxygen won't CO2 suffice ? Perhaps for only a few chemicals - a developer or a fixer but not both ?

Experiences ?

If the liquid was exposed to and equilibrated to the 21% oxygen in the atmosphere, most of the oxygen in the bottle is going to be dissolved in the liquid part. How are you going to deal with that? One way would be to put like a few 100 ml of you solution at time in a 20 liter tank and remove the O2 from the tank. Keep doing that until your dissolved o2 in the liquid is lowered to your liking.

Bruce Watson
28-Apr-2014, 18:31
IMHO, you are trying way too hard. This isn't at all a difficult problem.

The answer is already being used in the wine industry. Big thick glass bottles that are effectively impermeable for centuries. Then, pull a vacuum over whatever liquid is in the bottle, with a Vacu Vin Wine Saver (http://www.vacuvin.com/270/Wine_Saver.html). Problem solved.

I've had XTOL stock last 12 months (IIRC, Kodak advised 6 months max) in a wine bottle with a Vacu Vin stopper. Still had plenty of vacuum, developer was as effective as the day I mixed it (in steam distilled water of course ;-).

Jim C.
29-Apr-2014, 06:00
There is product called Bloxygen, it's sold direct and in woodworking supply stores, I use to pad out moisture
sensitive plastics that I use, it's basically a can of argon gas. It's kind of expensive, and I haven't yet tried
with dark room chems, but it may be economical enough to protect developer concentrates.

ROL
29-Apr-2014, 08:44
...I never had any problem with the marbles.

Frankly, it's never been much of a problem for me as I've always been told much of the oxygen is missing from any room I enter anyhow. Clearly, I've lost all my marbles, but I don't see why the OP can't just decant into a floating lid type container, where oxygen exposure will be minimal.

swmcl
30-Apr-2014, 00:58
I thank you all for your replies. As luck would have it, I had already ordered 4 cans of CO2 ... Anyone want 4 cans of CO2?

Ken, I do use Pyrocat-HD and I do use it mixed 15 secs prior to use. But !

I want to try some other things and they aren't the same. They have a fairly limited shelf life on the stock solution. Bruce, I want to try the Eco XTOL stuff and I need to do what you do. I'm also thinking of the paper chemicals down the track.

A little puff of N2 might be the go.

Cheers,

rwhb1
1-May-2014, 12:27
I did ask a while ago if a vacuum was effective. I have been using those vacuum pumps and stoppers for wine bottles, but have no idea what vacuum is achieved or the reduction of oxygen.

http://www.amazon.com/Vacu-Vin-0981450-Vacuum-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398972429&sr=8-1&keywords=wine+vacuum

Russ

Sandokan
4-Jun-2023, 22:46
IMHO, you are trying way too hard. This isn't at all a difficult problem.

The answer is already being used in the wine industry. Big thick glass bottles that are effectively impermeable for centuries. Then, pull a vacuum over whatever liquid is in the bottle, with a Vacu Vin Wine Saver (http://www.vacuvin.com/270/Wine_Saver.html). Problem solved.

I've had XTOL stock last 12 months (IIRC, Kodak advised 6 months max) in a wine bottle with a Vacu Vin stopper. Still had plenty of vacuum, developer was as effective as the day I mixed it (in steam distilled water of course ;-).

Hi Bruce, What wine bottle works best? I was thinking a Spanish Retuerta or Italian Amarone :)

I have a food vacuum pump and was thinking of finding a container in glass, but all food containers I found were plastic. Then I thought to try the vacuvin method you have. Thanks for letting me know it works. Unfortunately only the really cheap wines come in one litre bottles, but I shall persevere through one or two.

P.S. I have used butane from a gas refiller to remove air from a bottle. The pp of dissoved O2 is not so high - but a double vaccuming will reduce this, I guess the second one a day or two later.

Drew Wiley
7-Jun-2023, 17:14
Old thread. But in the meantime, small convenient containers of inert gas for sake of preserving wine flavor have become common in winemaking shops as well as on Amazon.

Peter De Smidt
7-Jun-2023, 19:10
I just use Dustoff. It works great.

PRJ
8-Jun-2023, 16:58
Ive used Bloxygen but Butane is cheaper and easier to get. I doubt I'll use Bloxygen again after trying it.

Mike_E
18-Jun-2023, 09:08
Propane is heavier than air and if you pick up a bottle with a torch nozzle it's easy to get into the bottle.

wclark5179
23-Jun-2023, 19:09
Just a thought,

I use empty 2 liter soda bottles for stock chemistry. You could squeeze the bottle, each time you use its contents, to get the oxygen out and screw on the cap.

I find the bottles work great, no reactions with contents and the cap can be used over again and again.

John Layton
24-Jun-2023, 04:56
You could also thoroughly wash and re-use something like a Sprint stop bath box, with its "air-evac" bladder. (other chem concentrates might be more difficult to remove thoroughly). Or just wash out your old wine boxes...same principle!

Oh...and anyone remember those plastic "accordion" bottles? I think either Kalt or Delta had those...do they still make them? I did try one of those for a bit years and years ago...and to be honest, it was very difficult for me not to make a mess of things!

I do like the idea of (very clean!) marbles...will try this sometime. Might be good to also incorporate some kind of (inert plastic mesh?) pouring cap - so those marbles don't suddenly come plopping out...now that would be a mess!

Deyoung
24-Jun-2023, 06:11
I've been using Stop Loss bags (https://www.amazon.com/StopLossBags-Pack-Collapsible-Funnel-Extra/dp/B0C1573LW7/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=stop+loss+bags&qid=1687612042&sprefix=stop+loss%2Caps%2C114&sr=8-4) for storing XTOL stock. Work very well and you can squeeze any air out of the top before sealing. I've used XTOL 8 months after mixing with no problems.
For other chems, I tend to leave the seal in place and use a syringe to poke a hole to extract the necessary amount. Then seal with a piece of tape and close the lid. Not sure if that helps, but it hasn't hurt.

willwilson
24-Jun-2023, 06:32
I use 5oz 150ml brown glass jars for storing xtol. Fill all the way up, so no air. Then use the jar for measuring your water. I have enough for a whole batch of xtol.

I use dust-off spray for fix and paper dev that are partial use.

You can get the jars on Amazon. There are a variety of sizes but I just use more than one jar if I am developing a lot of film at once. 239856

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

John Layton
24-Jun-2023, 11:01
Will those jars look interesting. How are the lids? Do they have the plastic coated paper seal (which tends to slough off over time), or something else? Years ago I had a couple of brown glass bottles whose caps incorporated some sort of bomb-proof plastic to seal their lids...and I've been looking ever since to find replacements for these.

willwilson
24-Jun-2023, 17:43
Hi John, yes disposable coated paper seals. I have an extra box of jars as they age. Darkroom work is often not the best for the planet. They have been fine for the last few years though. There were definitely some broken ones on arrival, order extras.

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

jmpgino
9-Jul-2023, 12:01
Hello, I play around welding, to say play is rather untrue as I dropped $12,000 into the three main systems. Well some years ago I was sick of my photographic chemicals going off so quickly. Rodinal especially turns into crystals quite quickly. So I started to use Argon gas this gas is used in TIG welding as a shielding gas to push away oxygen when welding, since it is an inert gas it seemed obvious to me it would work. It is heavier than oxygen so I open the tank valve slightly and let the hose hang over the bottle for a few seconds to disperse the oxygen and then put the screw top lid back on. It works my chemicals last literally years now.you can go and buy a small cylinder and have it filled by your local welding supplier. It is not that expensive either, I doubt you would use up a small tank in decades of use.
I also use it with paper developer and fixer when I am printing over a few days. Hope this helps, oh and the food industry users Argon gas as well, many products in jars and bottles get a quick squirt of the gas before the lids are screwed on, that is why after we open jars the stuff goes off quickly, because when we tip out the Argon and the oxygen gets in…..cheers, James.

ethics_gradient
9-Jul-2023, 14:51
Hello, I play around welding, to say play is rather untrue as I dropped $12,000 into the three main systems. Well some years ago I was sick of my photographic chemicals going off so quickly. Rodinal especially turns into crystals quite quickly. So I started to use Argon gas this gas is used in TIG welding as a shielding gas to push away oxygen when welding, since it is an inert gas it seemed obvious to me it would work. It is heavier than oxygen so I open the tank valve slightly and let the hose hang over the bottle for a few seconds to disperse the oxygen and then put the screw top lid back on. It works my chemicals last literally years now.you can go and buy a small cylinder and have it filled by your local welding supplier. It is not that expensive either, I doubt you would use up a small tank in decades of use.
I also use it with paper developer and fixer when I am printing over a few days. Hope this helps, oh and the food industry users Argon gas as well, many products in jars and bottles get a quick squirt of the gas before the lids are screwed on, that is why after we open jars the stuff goes off quickly, because when we tip out the Argon and the oxygen gets in…..cheers, James.

Haha, read through the three pages thinking "here's my chance to mention argon from any welding supplier" and it turns out I was beaten by a nose! +1 on the argon.

jmpgino
9-Jul-2023, 15:57
Well I just joined a short time ago and this was my first post. The people who posted earlier talked about using Nitrigen, well sadly they are wrong about that gas. It may be inert but it is LIGHTER THAN OXYGEN, so it will not displace it. Only Argon has this capability since it is very heavy. Welders have died Tig welding cracks in stainless steel wine and beer vats, they are down in there welding away and the Argon they are using displaces the oxygen in the vessels they are repairing and they simply die when the Argon has displaced the Oxygen above their heads. It is the best gas to end your life if you so wish to do so, a totally painless way to escape the pain of a cancer…….and oh boy welding stainless steel with the stuff is like pouring butter. So remember it is INERT AND HEAVIER THAN OXYGEN. Look up inert if you are not sure what it means, knowledge is a wonderful thing…..

Peter De Smidt
9-Jul-2023, 16:19
Argon seems like the best choice if one has the required equipment.

Eugen Mezei
15-Jul-2023, 06:48
The poor mans marbles = a smashed windshield.