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Songyun
14-Apr-2014, 23:24
Does anyone know this lens?
I have seen 135mm, 150mm. But when I saw the 120mm, it surprised me, the lens is in Copal 1 shutter. Does anyone know why it's the case?

Bob Salomon
15-Apr-2014, 02:27
It was available only for a couple of years around 1986 or so. Barely covered 45 and never sold well.

Songyun
15-Apr-2014, 07:29
Bob, do you know why would they use a copal 1 shutter instead of copal 0?

Bob Salomon
15-Apr-2014, 07:58
Bob, do you know why would they use a copal 1 shutter instead of copal 0?

Sorry, we have nothing that would stste why. But it would have to be for the same reason why a 90mm 4.5 Grandagon is also in a 1 shutter. Physical size of the threads on the lens groups. Otherwise they would have saved money and gone with a 0.

The only tech info I have is a flyer from 3/88 that shows the 120 Sironar-N being only in Copal, Compur and Prontor Professional 1 shutters and its having an image circle of 175mm. It was quite a bit larger then the 100 and 135mm Sironar lenses. They had a 40.5mm front filter thread while the 120 had a 52mm filter thread.. In fact it was also larger in diameter then the 150mm and only the 180mm and longer had a larger filter size. Also it had a 51mm diameter rear mount. That was the same size as the 180mm Sironar-N as well. The 150mm had a 42mm rear mount diameter. Lastly, the 120mm lens was 59mm long. A 180mm Sironar N was 57mm long. So don't look just at the focal length and assume it should be in a 0 shutter. This was quite a big lens for its focal length. Not as big as the 115mm Grandagon 6.8 but that lens was also in a 1 shutter.

Songyun
15-Apr-2014, 09:08
That is what I am confused about. 90 4.5 in copal 1 doesnt look odd to me, coz one step up is the 115 f6.8 in copal 1.
120 sironar-n is totally odd in the line up. besides, 120 sironar-n is still a plasmat, I expect it to be inline with 100 and 135. Was Rodenstock trying to use a different formula?


Sorry, we have nothing that would stste why. But it would have to be for the same reason why a 90mm 4.5 Grandagon is also in a 1 shutter. Physical size of the threads on the lens groups. Otherwise they would have saved money and gone with a 0.

The only tech info I have is a flyer from 3/88 that shows the 120 Sironar-N being only in Copal, Compur and Prontor Professional 1 shutters and its having an image circle of 175mm. It was quite a bit larger then the 100 and 135mm Sironar lenses. They had a 40.5mm front filter thread while the 120 had a 52mm filter thread.. In fact it was also larger in diameter then the 150mm and only the 180mm and longer had a larger filter size. Also it had a 51mm diameter rear mount. That was the same size as the 180mm Sironar-N as well. The 150mm had a 42mm rear mount diameter. Lastly, the 120mm lens was 59mm long. A 180mm Sironar N was 57mm long. So don't look just at the focal length and assume it should be in a 0 shutter. This was quite a big lens for its focal length. Not as big as the 115mm Grandagon 6.8 but that lens was also in a 1 shutter.

Bob Salomon
15-Apr-2014, 09:22
That is what I am confused about. 90 4.5 in copal 1 doesnt look odd to me, coz one step up is the 115 f6.8 in copal 1.
120 sironar-n is totally odd in the line up. besides, 120 sironar-n is still a plasmat, I expect it to be inline with 100 and 135. Was Rodenstock trying to use a different formula?

Don't know and the brochure does not say. It just states that the Sironar-N was a 72 coverage design except for the 360 and 480mm which were limited by the shutter opening size..

Songyun
25-Apr-2014, 22:14
Bob, do you mind take a look at this ebay item 261115530057. The seller claim it is a sironar-n 120mm in copal 0.

Sal Santamaura
26-Apr-2014, 08:42
...take a look at this ebay item 261115530057. The seller claim it is a sironar-n 120mm in copal 0.The serial number is from 1986 per this page:


http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/Serial_Numbers_of_Rodenstock_Lenses__2__10187.pdf

However, the front cell diameter is definitely consistent with my 135mm Sironar N from that period, i.e. accepting a 40.5mm filter, not the larger 52mm filters Bob mentioned in post #4. Images in that listing don't reveal the focal length engraving. I'd ask the seller to provide another picture that shows it. Most probable explanation is that the seller made a mistake and it is a 105mm or 135mm. Based on the front element's apparent curvature and flare angle of the rear cell, I'm betting on 105mm.

BradS
26-Apr-2014, 09:21
Does anyone know this lens?
I have seen 135mm, 150mm. But when I saw the 120mm, it surprised me, the lens is in Copal 1 shutter. Does anyone know why it's the case?

I'm slightly dyslexic...and so, it seems like a very simple explanation...the very common 210mm Sironar-N lens does come in a copal #1 and could easily be described as a 120mm by someone like me.

Bob Salomon
26-Apr-2014, 10:17
Bob, do you mind take a look at this ebay item 261115530057. The seller claim it is a sironar-n 120mm in copal 0.

Can't see what is engraved on the front.

Oren Grad
26-Apr-2014, 10:38
Based on the front element's apparent curvature and flare angle of the rear cell, I'm betting on 105mm.

No, I have the 100 Apo-N - the rear cell is a straight tube, no flare. I have the 120 N as well, in Copal 1. I'd guess that the one in the listing is a 135 N.

Songyun
26-Apr-2014, 15:33
No, I have the 100 Apo-N - the rear cell is a straight tube, no flare. I have the 120 N as well, in Copal 1. I'd guess that the one in the listing is a 135 N.

that is my speculation as well.

Songyun
12-May-2014, 13:38
Does Rodenstock make macro 120mm before the introduction of the colored ring? I guess the ebay auction lens must be macro sironar 120mm.

Bob Salomon
12-May-2014, 13:42
Does Rodenstock make macro 120mm before the introduction of the colored ring? I guess the ebay auction lens must be macro sironar 120mm.

I don't remember either the 120 or the 180 without the ring. The Macro Sironar was only made in 210 and 300mm. The Apo Macro Sironar is only in 120 and 180mm and the Apo Macro Sironar Digital is only in 120mm.

Sal Santamaura
22-Oct-2016, 21:48
I ran across this today:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Sironar-N-120mm-f-5-6-MC-Lens-EXC-condition-from-japan-77622-/252599114079?hash=item3ad014995f:g:gzcAAOSw8w1YB1Cy


The images clearly show engraving of 120mm on its front cell. It's definitely in a Copal 0 shutter with five aperture blades, not the Copal 1 described elsewhere in this thread, and appears to take 40.5mm filters, not 52mm. Anyone ever seen or used one like it? If so, how sharp were images made by the sample you shot with?

Oren Grad
22-Oct-2016, 22:28
Very interesting find by Sal. Comparing the pictures in the listing against my 120 Sironar-N MC in Copal 1, both the front and rear cells of the lens that's being offered appear to be substantially smaller than the corresponding cells in my sample. Harder to tell about the glass itself from the pictures, but I do wonder whether the glass was re-designed between production runs rather than just the mount being changed.

FWIW, my lens in Copal 1 has serial number 1060xxxx, while the lens in Copal 0 that's offered in this listing has serial number 1090xxxx. So we see at least two production runs, with distinct characteristics, for a product that was offered only briefly and sold in such small numbers that it's not often seen on the second-hand market. Can't help wondering exactly what happened, and why, and whether there are any optical differences between the two versions.

Leigh
23-Oct-2016, 00:00
I have a 120mm f/5.6 Sironar-N in my database, shown as being in a Copal 0 shutter and using a 52mm filter.

All of the info in the database came from published catalogs or datasheets, most of which are undated.

- Leigh

Bob Salomon
23-Oct-2016, 07:29
Does Rodenstock make macro 120mm before the introduction of the colored ring? I guess the ebay auction lens must be macro sironar 120mm.

Yes they did.

Sal Santamaura
23-Oct-2016, 08:32
Yes they did.Have you discovered new information in the 2-1/2 years since Songyun asked that question in post #13 and you answered it in post #14? :)

Joerg Krusche
23-Oct-2016, 10:09
FWIW like Oren I also have the 120 version with SN 1060xxxx and both versions Copal 1 SN 1060xxx and Copal 0 SN 1090xxx are being offered on ebay right now.

Joerg




Very interesting find by Sal. Comparing the pictures in the listing against my 120 Sironar-N MC in Copal 1, both the front and rear cells of the lens that's being offered appear to be substantially smaller than the corresponding cells in my sample. Harder to tell about the glass itself from the pictures, but I do wonder whether the glass was re-designed between production runs rather than just the mount being changed.

FWIW, my lens in Copal 1 has serial number 1060xxxx, while the lens in Copal 0 that's offered in this listing has serial number 1090xxxx. So we see at least two production runs, with distinct characteristics, for a product that was offered only briefly and sold in such small numbers that it's not often seen on the second-hand market. Can't help wondering exactly what happened, and why, and whether there are any optical differences between the two versions.

Oren Grad
23-Oct-2016, 14:55
Cruising around the web a bit just now, I can find three pictures of 120's in Copal 1 that have all serial number digits legible. Adding mine, all of the S/Ns are within the range 106040xx - 106042xx. Four is a pretty small sample, but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that that production run was fewer than 300 pieces.

Tin Can
23-Oct-2016, 15:23
I have the APO Symmar 5.6/120 mm in all black Copal 0.0 49mm filter Multicoating.

I need to try it for macro.

Sal Santamaura
16-May-2019, 09:20
I recently purchased this Copal 0 version


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Sironar-N-120mm-F-5-6-MC-Copal-0-Excellent-2692-/202636060250?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

and just developed the first film shot using it on my Horseman VH. Nothing printed yet, but examining the negatives with a loupe shows it to be very sharp. Typical of used lenses from Japan, it was slightly musty. A 1+1 chlorine bleach / water wipe down cured that. I'm very confident it was in its original shutter. The cells were tight and required substantial torque to break loose; the factory shim was in place under the front cell. Given the lensboard and missing rear cap, it probably sat in someone's medium format Horseman view camera since original purchase.

This focal length is perfect for quite a bit of my work. With a 40.5mm front filter, it closes inside my VH. For anyone still interested, the rear cell outer diameter is 37mm. It is slightly flared, as opposed to the straight rear cell on my 100mm Apo Sironar N.

Jeff T
16-May-2019, 09:38
Sal, that looks to be in good cosmetic condition. Thanks for bringing this thread forward. I also noticed the mystery of the 120mm in both copal 0 and 1 and was about to inquire here.
Was the subject shot at macro distant?

Which one should I get? I am leaning towards Copal 0 with a smaller filter ring.

Sal Santamaura
16-May-2019, 10:14
...Was the subject shot at macro distant?...No, it was my backyard "standard scene" from around 50 feet. The Sironar N / Apo Sironar N series was optimized for 1:20. I assume 120mm versions followed suit. However, I've seen no technical data which confirms that they did.


...Which one should I get? I am leaning towards Copal 0 with a smaller filter ring.So few of them turn up for sale, unless you need the small front cell to close inside a field camera, I'd say whichever you can find. :) Having used only one sample of the Copal 0 type, I've no idea how their performance compares.