Started to test for film speed - honest! But I ran into problems and gave up.....

[jbrianfoto]

....and just started shooting.

For many years I've told myself that I would do the Zone VI film speed test, all the way thru, but it kept getting put off. So yesterday I started to do it, then ran into a problem that I couldn't really get around; The proceedure is to shoot one sheet at the manufactures ASA, then one at 75%, another at 50%, then another at 25% and a last one at double the manufactures ASA. I am testing a film that is supposed to be 400, so the values would be 400, 300, 200, 100 and 800. First problem, my Minolta Spotmeter IV does not have those ASA values avaiulable (for instance, it does not have 300, only 320). Then when I meter my 18% grey card at 400, and 320, there is such a small difference between the indicated F-stop, that I cannot translate that into a real value on my lens (I recall the first f-stop was f/8.6 for 400, and f/8.2 for 320). My Copal #3 shutter only has 1/3 stop increments between f-stops. I could approximate and round up/down, but that kinda defeats the point.

Sooooo - I threw the book into my donate pile and went outside and started shooting plates of my son, Matthew. I went thru 8 sheets of film before I got what appears to be nice results (will know more once I can print them). That was allot more fun.

I am going to pour thru this forum more, to find a better way to test for film speed, I am certian it exists. I have seen some postings (but haven't dove into the reading yet) - about using a step wedge. I do have a calibrated MacBeth densitometer, so hopefully I can get this done properly, someday.

More to follow....

[Alan Curtis]

Contact Fred Newman at the View Camera Store. He will send you seven sheets of film, your choice, that he has exposed with a step wedge. You develop and return them. He will give you film speed and all the developing information you need for normal, N-1 and N+1 times. I have used his services before and he is great to deal with.

[jose angel]

I`m not so fond of a deep film testing as a starter. Obviously it is so useful, it is necessary to know how your film work, but I also think that we should enjoy shooting as well. Same for the densitometer. I`d leave them for a future.

IMHO, I`d just start shooting, reading, and in a few shoots you`ll notice that maybe you don`t have the detail you`d like to have in that shadows... or that in certain situations the contrast or exposure is too hight, or too low, depending on the scene, indoor, outdoor, cloudy day, etc... or perfect. When you notice that the development or the "nominal ISO" is not giving you what you need, it`s time to experiment and make variations. A full batch of tests is so boring and tiresome. Take your time.

This is what I did long time ago, after some film ISO and Zone System tests, and being obsessed with the densitometer. Every shot was like an exam. Now I work on a more instinctive way, and have more fun.

[jbrianfoto]

Hmmmm - I have visited Fred in his home when I lived in Tucson, real nice fellow. Problem I have is I am shooting X-Ray film - maybe he has some of that in his stash? Can't hurt to ask.

[ic-racer]

Just shoot a single zone I frame; check its density when you process your next batch of film. If you are already making good negatives, you just need to see where you are.

[Ken Lee]

You might find this article helpful. It's a simplified method: Testing Black and White Film With the Zone System (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/testing.php)

I've gotten BTZS tests from Fred Newman and did them myself. They're terrific.

In the end I shoot film at 1/2 box speed.

[djdister]

You might find it even simpler to shoot at 1/2 box speed and call it a day :)

Indeed. When trying to determine the effective speed of some outdated Velvia 50, I just took shots at ISO 50, 25, and 12. In this case, ISO 12 was the winner.

[Jim Noel]

You only need to read the meter one time. Aim the camera at a blank north facing wall, focused on infinity.
Set your meter for the box speed (400). Make the exposure.
Open the aperture 1/3 stop (320) and make the exposure.'
Open another 1/3 stop (250)) make the exposure.
Open one more time 1/3 stop (200) make the exposure'
For the final exposure close down one stop from the original reading (800).
You now have your four negatives.

[jbrianfoto]

You only need to read the meter one time. Aim the camera at a blank north facing wall, focused on infinity.
Set your meter for the box speed (400). Make the exposure.
Open the aperture 1/3 stop (320) and make the exposure.'
Open another 1/3 stop (250)) make the exposure.
Open one more time 1/3 stop (200) make the exposure'
For the final exposure close down one stop from the original reading (800).
You now have your four negatives.

Ahhhh-

That makes better sense. Funny how stupid I can feel when the camera is loaded and ready and I'm looking at the meter - so the fine folks how make Copal shutters knew what they were doing by making 1/3 increments between f-stops (and Minolta).

Thank you !

[Darin Boville]

Despite the numerous threads on gray cards and film testing most people don't need to test at all.

Just start with an EI, developer, development time and temp that someone who is doing it successfully already uses--most of this ends up roughly the same in the end anyway, despite all the individual testing.

Then, as you work, if you are consistently getting shadows that are too dark (or too dense), adjust your EI. If your contrast is consistently too high or too low from where you expected, change your development time. You will have what you need in very short order.

After all, the Zone System was developed as a device to *teach* photographic technique. You don't have to do all that if you want to just make photographs (and I've done the whole Zone System testing thing when I was learning...I'm just wiser now :) )

Think about it--are you really planning on measuring densities to multiple decimal places without first testing all your shutters, at all speeds, in a variety of of temperatures (and don't forget to test them as you move both up and down the dial)? Are you really going to be that precise when people usually make only rough corrections for bellows extension? Are you planning to have your meter tested to insure that it is really linear--how how does it work in a variety of temperatures? Have you thought about lens vignetting and how that might affect sensitive/borderline shadow detail? On and on.

Details lens testing is for scientists, educators, and forum addicts. I suggest "navigating" while you work. But that's not so much fun to discuss on a online forum...

--Darin

[jbrianfoto]

Despite the numerous threads on gray cards and film testing most people don't need to test at all.

Just start with an EI, developer, development time and temp that someone who is doing it successfully already uses--most of this ends up roughly the same in the end anyway, despite all the individual testing.

Then, as you work, if you are consistently getting shadows that are too dark (or too dense), adjust your EI. If your contrast is consistently too high or too low from where you expected, change your development time. You will have what you need in very short order.

After all, the Zone System was developed as a device to *teach* photographic technique. You don't have to do all that if you want to just make photographs (and I've done the whole Zone System testing thing when I was learning...I'm just wiser now :) )

Think about it--are you really planning on measuring densities to multiple decimal places without first testing all your shutters, at all speeds, in a variety of of temperatures (and don't forget to test them as you move both up and down the dial)? Are you really going to be that precise when people usually make only rough corrections for bellows extension? Are you planning to have your meter tested to insure that it is really linear--how how does it work in a variety of temperatures? Have you thought about lens vignetting and how that might affect sensitive/borderline shadow detail? On and on.

Details lens testing is for scientists, educators, and forum addicts. I suggest "navigating" while you work. But that's not so much fun to discuss on a online forum...

--Darin

Very insightful Darin - you're idea about just making slight adjustments is sound, and gets me to shooting faster. I posted an image (that last one of the weekend) over in the xRay image folder. I'm getting there. Just need to make a few real prints to tell the story (can't really tell from a digital copy).

Thanks !

[Leigh]

After all, the Zone System was developed as a device to *teach* photographic technique. You don't have to do all that if you want to just make photographs (and I've done the whole Zone System testing thing when I was learning...I'm just wiser now :) )
The Zone System is just an explanation of how one individual approached the SYSTEM of photography.
For the information to be of any value it must be viewed as a system, from subject evaluation to final print, not
as a chinese menu of steps from which you pick and choose.

I agree entirely that the most useful testing for any individual is to go out and take pictures.

The key to any system is consistency, i.e. do the same thing the same way every time.
Take notes including how the subject was metered and the exposure that was used.

Correlate this with your film developing log and printing log when evaluating the final prints.
The actual details of each step are personal. Once you understand the basics you can vary the details.
How they correlate with what anybody else did is absolutely irrelevant.

Do whatever is comfortable and intuitive for you. The key is to do it exactly the same way every time.
Once you develop consistency you can alter the process as needed to achieve your goals.

- Leigh

[Bill Burk]

Every time the question comes up, I want to help, but I realize less needs to be said.

In this post, I am letting go of Film Speed testing. You already know your film speed.

I believe the only testing one needs for process control is to occasionally take two shots of the same subject - as if bracketing - two stops apart in exposure.

The two shots can be anywhere, anything, taken while you are otherwise taking pictures anyway. With these two shots you can measure the extent of your development.

After development, measure the density difference of the two negatives from something an arbitrary medium gray that appears in both shots. If you don't have a better idea of what gradient to develop to, I'll suggest looking for a density difference of one stop, 0.30 density difference. This would be an 0.50 gradient, suitable for Silver Gelatin printing and very easy to remember.

[Doremus Scudder]

I don't see why film testing has to be so complicated. I manage it with one sheet of film and pulling the darkslide a bit at a time...

Anyway, testing at 1/3-stop increments is overkill for black-and-white. Take a sheet at box speed, one 2/3-stop over and one 4/3-stop over (use the aperture setting, opening 2/3-stop each time). forget the underexposure unless you're getting really overexposed negs. In you case that would correspond to 400, 250, and 160 E.I.s.

Develop "normal" and proper proof on paper you use to print with. Proper proof means using the minimum exposure to get the film rebate maximum black on the paper in display lighting. That means you'll have to do a test strip. Use your printing method; i.e., enlarger if you enlarge or contact print if you contact print (you need to take the optical system of the enlarger into consideration if you enlarge).

Examine your prints after they dry: The one where your Zone I exposure is just barely above the maximum black is the E.I. you want to use. Extrapolate for intermediate values and err on the side of overexposure. That will get you a useable E.I. in almost no time. Overexposure by 1/3 of a stop or a bit more is not an issue; underexposure is the danger.

Go shoot: Do your development tests for N, N+ and N- later using carefully metered real-life subjects. Just snap an extra neg when a great subject presents itself and develop it more or less after developing and proper-proofing the first one if that one seems to need more or less development. Soon you will be way in the ball park.

Do this occasionally as a control from then on and to refine. Always proper-proof your negatives, even when making contact sheets, this will give you a control of your system without doing lots of tests all the time.

That's it! In practice, you don't need even 1/3-stop precision for black-and-white materials as long as you aren't underexposing. Keep in mind that the range of a zone in the Zone System is one stop. Getting the negative within one stop of the right contrast is usually way close enough to make great prints from.

Oh yes, one more thing. If you do the test above and find that you do need to underexpose to get Zone I, start looking for problems with your shutter/meter, etc. It likely won't be your processing that requires less exposure!

Best,

Doremus