Buying New Copal Shutters for LF Film Photography?

[Regular Rod]

Is this still possible? The Copal website has no mention of Copal Shutters for use with film cameras...
:confused:
RR

[jbenedict]

S.K. Grimes lists them available on their website.

http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals

[Regular Rod]

S.K. Grimes lists them available on their website.

http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals

Where does he get them from?

What is the channel?

RR

[Oren Grad]

B&H lists them too.

Copal has discontinued manufacture of mechanical shutters for LF lenses. There is still new-old stock in the distribution channels, but prices are very high relative to buying second-hand, even buying entire lenses to get the shutters.

[Roger Thoms]

Copal shutters are no longer being made, but a few places still have them in stock.

Badger lists Copla #1 in stock.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=164

Roger

[Michael Kadillak]

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind paying over $1,000 last I checked on B&H for a Copal #3. People complain about the high price of sheet film have to begin to appreciate the business shift that is taking place here. Like many I consider myself fortunate to have a slew of Toyo 8x10 holders (and other format holders as well) and sufficient Copal shutters to get me through the dry spell. Hopefully someone will step up and fill the need.

[Jac@stafford.net]

It is more economical to buy a used lens that has the shutter you want.
Look at Fujifilm lenses on the auction site, for example.
.

[AuditorOne]

There is nothing wrong with buying used, I do it all the time as do many others. But neither is there any shame in buying new if that is what you want. People support the digital camera industry by purchasing new digital cameras all the time.

There is not a thing wrong with supporting the camera industry, particularly the large format part of it. And you get a brand new shutter as well, one which you will know exactly how it has been treated, used and cared for as you go forward. It will almost certainly outlast a new digital camera of similar price.

[Michael Kadillak]

There is nothing wrong with buying used, I do it all the time as do many others. But neither is there any shame in buying new if that is what you want. People support the digital camera industry by purchasing new digital cameras all the time.

There is not a thing wrong with supporting the camera industry, particularly the large format part of it. And you get a brand new shutter as well, one which you will know exactly how it has been treated, used and cared for as you go forward. It will almost certainly outlast a new digital camera of similar price.

The issue here is the long tenured fact that Copal #3 shutters sold for $400 +/- and this is a hard thing to pay up for what is left of inventory at this multiple. Seems like money grubbing to me. The same can be said for the remaining Toyo 8x10 film holders. What concerns me the most is where the new interest in LF and ULF photography is going to come from? Without steady supplies of basic necessities (holders, shutters and lenses) we are in a use what you got mode as long as it lasts. Film is one item I accept is just going to be pricier and I will pay whatever the market price is particularly for good quality control. As far as shutters I am making each "click" count.

[hoffner]

There is nothing wrong with buying used, I do it all the time as do many others. But neither is there any shame in buying new if that is what you want. People support the digital camera industry by purchasing new digital cameras all the time.

There is not a thing wrong with supporting the camera industry, particularly the large format part of it. And you get a brand new shutter as well, one which you will know exactly how it has been treated, used and cared for as you go forward. It will almost certainly outlast a new digital camera of similar price.

I agree with you. If one cannot imagine buying a new one it has either limited imagination or the pocket or both.

[AuditorOne]

The issue here is the long tenured fact that Copal #3 shutters sold for $400 +/- and this is a hard thing to pay up for what is left of inventory at this multiple. Seems like money grubbing to me. The same can be said for the remaining Toyo 8x10 film holders. What concerns me the most is where the new interest in LF and ULF photography is going to come from? Without steady supplies of basic necessities (holders, shutters and lenses) we are in a use what you got mode as long as it lasts. Film is one item I accept is just going to be pricier and I will pay whatever the market price is particularly for good quality control. As far as shutters I am making each "click" count.

I understand that it is tough to buy new when the prices have gone up dramatically on items that were available for much less in the past. But until people start stepping forward and buying up the NOS large format equipment, Copal, Toyo or otherwise, nobody will be motivated to step into the gap and make any more of it.

We are all in a bit of a catch-22. If it is your economic circumstances that prevent you from buying new equipment I can understand it. There is certainly enough of that to go around. But if it is only a fond memory of rosier times with less expensive equipment than everyone is slowly but surely dooming this hobby. Even well built used equipment eventually wears out and breaks.

[Michael Kadillak]

I understand that it is tough to buy new when the prices have gone up dramatically on items that were available for much less in the past. But until people start stepping forward and buying up the NOS large format equipment, Copal, Toyo or otherwise, nobody will be motivated to step into the gap and make any more of it.

We are all in a bit of a catch-22. If it is your economic circumstances that prevent you from buying new equipment I can understand it. There is certainly enough of that to go around. But if it is only a fond memory of rosier times with less expensive equipment than everyone is slowly but surely dooming this hobby. Even well built used equipment eventually wears out and breaks.

A short price rally for a particular product that has ceased production and is running on inventory is a pig in the poke. Most times when the books are closed by the manufacturer they liquidate anything of value and their product does not command a premium to the retail market because they want to generate revenue and sell everything quick. They discount it big to move it. It is the middle men that are hosing the legitimate consumers. One major reseller sees an opportunity to try to take advantage of the unfortunate situation and the rest follow through. Kinda like the one guy that has the one tire shop on the Alcan Highway when you have a flat. $100 for a fixed flat? You kidding me - I only pay $5 back in Iowa. Take it back to Iowa and have that guy fix it is the standard line. I hope those middle men have those shutters for a long time. At a reasonable price I am all in. Otherwise catch ya on the road making photographs....

[AuditorOne]

I'm with you. I'm out next to the lake, standing on top of the camper with my tripod and camera, happily taking photographs as the rising sun hits the cliffs out on the opposite side of the lake.

But meanwhile we are running out of suppliers for some relatively important parts. I have plenty of cameras, plenty of lenses, plenty of shutters, plenty of film backs and just stocked up on film. I won't be stopped from practicing my hobby anytime soon.

[Michael Kadillak]

I'm with you. I'm out next to the lake, standing on top of the camper with my tripod and camera, happily taking photographs as the rising sun hits the cliffs out on the opposite side of the lake.

But meanwhile we are running out of suppliers for some relatively important parts. I have plenty of cameras, plenty of lenses, plenty of shutters, plenty of film backs and just stocked up on film. I won't be stopped from practicing my hobby anytime soon.

I am with you on that regard. I shot 6 8x10, 2 11x14 and 2 8x20 images on Saturday and processed the 8x10 and 11x14 until I ran out of pyro. Mixed 3.5 liters of the magical juice and I am good to go for another couple of months. Back in the darkroom tomorrow. I continue to marvel at the qualities of the new T Max 400 sheet film while I lament the price I pay. Rather like working with high priced hardwood on the table saw. Measure thrice, cut once. I trip the shutter as sparingly as possible shooting TMY. Thankfully, FP4+ is half the toll and can (under the right circumstances) do quite nicely in the results department. Keep shooting and buying sheet film and we will be fine.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I agree with you. If one cannot imagine buying a new one it has either limited imagination or the pocket or both.

That could be taken as arrogance. I hope you do not mean that if we cannot buy new we should not be into LF.

[hoffner]

That could be taken as arrogance. I hope you do not mean that if we cannot buy new we should not be into LF.

For that deduction you would really need a lot of imagination - instead of logic.

[Michael Kadillak]

That could be taken as arrogance. I hope you do not mean that if we cannot buy new we should not be into LF.

Now sure where that reasoning came from? Of course not. The body of large format photographers that encompass the readership on this forum are likely all relatively cognizant that the art form we choose to participant in has certain variables that have suffered from cost escalation as a function of time. Film costs stand a the top of that list as far as I am concerned and other costs are on the same up trend line as analog photography continues its transition from being mainstream to a smaller niche business. The costs to LF photographers must have product alternatives to allow the price points of both participation and/or admission that are more reasonable in price than paying $1,100 for a shutter and over $8 a sheet for 8x10 TMY. At some point cost escalation has a negative consequence. Fortunately there is the used market and other film manufacturers like Ilford that see this as an opportunity.

[Francisco J. Fernández]

Is this still possible? The Copal website has no mention of Copal Shutters for use with film cameras...
:confused:
RR

Hello, you plug COPAL you (# 1?) If I need to explain your need, maybe I can give him one of # 1 because I have several (FREE shipping too).

[Jac@stafford.net]

For that deduction you would really need a lot of imagination - instead of logic.

I have no issue with logic. What, exactly are you talking about? Be specific if you can.

Thank you.

[hoffner]

I call BS. I have no issue with logic. What, exactly are you talking about? Be specific if you can.

Thank you.

Look again at the citation that precedes my answer. Could that be what "I'm talking about?" As to your logic, it seems I'm not the only one to be surprised by its reasoning, doesn't it?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Look again at the citation that precedes my answer. Could that be what "I'm talking about?" As to your logic, it seems I'm not the only one to be surprised by its reasoning, doesn't it?

I admit that I am puzzled. All I hoped to express is one way LF photographers can acquire shutters without paying like-new prices.

What is wrong with that?

[hoffner]

Nothing. Live well!

[Jac@stafford.net]

Nothing. Live well!

I should remember that 'facetious' is more important than just the answer to a silly puzzle.

Best,
Jac

[Francisco J. Fernández]

Hello, you plug COPAL you (# 1?) If I need to explain your need, maybe I can give him one of # 1 because I have several (FREE shipping too).


Well, looks like you do not care ... for nothing, will continue in its box.

no more gifts.

[Drew Wiley]

Nowadays you can simply buy some used lens with the correct shutter for far less than a shutter alone.

[AuditorOne]

I admit that I am puzzled. All I hoped to express is one way LF photographers can acquire shutters without paying like-new prices.

What is wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that Jac. I did not intend to indicate there was, and I do not believe that hoffner did either.

My own point is that sometimes this belief in what may or may not be more economical traps us, as well as the industry, especially if everyone blindly accepts the fact that buying used is always more economical.

For example, I myself have done exactly as you suggested. I cruised the mighty auction in the ethernet looking for inexpensive solutions to my wants and needs. Occasionally it has worked. But occasionally it has not. If it doesn't I either return said product, if I can, and go looking again. Or, I have sometimes sent items out for repair. I think this is probably a somewhat familiar flow of events for many of us.

However. What we fail to consider while we are engaged in all this is the actual cost to us. Because there is a cost. Monetarily it may have been less (although even that is not always true if we were honest about it), but when you incorporate the time spent, the time away from pursuing our hobby or business, the lost opportunity costs, we would probably realize that it would have been more economical to buy new.

If we bought new from time to time when we needed these things we do experience benefits. The item has a warranty. It is likely to work as expected right out of the box. It usually comes with all the parts and pieces we need, and if not, it will almost always have literature included that tells us how the shutter performs, and what additional accessories we may like to have.

But there are extended benefits as well. In buying new we support the manufacturing industry that produces these shutters, or that may consider producing them if there was a viable market. And it isn't only shutters, it is also film holders and other items. You or I may have the required skills to construct a film holder, but does everyone who may want to shoot large format? Or are they also doomed to playing Ebay Roulette

As I mentioned earlier. I have no problem buying used, I do it a lot. I have no problem with you or anyone else buying used. But if EVERYONE buys used then no one will build new things, because no one is buying them. If this goes on long enough then pretty soon you run out of parts. This is not likely to happen in my lifetime. But it probably will happen in my grandson's lifetime. This mean that all the time I have spent training him to shoot an 8x10 field camera may be wasted because, even if he were inclined to use one, he may not be able to find it or keep it running if he does.

Actually, though a lot of time is spent speculating about the future of film, that really is not our biggest problem. Film can be made from scratch. You may not want to do it but you can mix up your own emulsion and coat glass plates or other objects relatively easily. But building shutters, lenses, or some other parts is not quite as easy.

Sorry about this long post. It really is only an observation. I hope you have a great week and have a chance to make some beautiful photographs soon.

[Regular Rod]

There is nothing wrong with that Jac. I did not intend to indicate there was, and I do not believe that hoffner did either.

My own point is that sometimes this belief in what may or may not be more economical traps us, as well as the industry, especially if everyone blindly accepts the fact that buying used is always more economical.

For example, I myself have done exactly as you suggested. I cruised the mighty auction in the ethernet looking for inexpensive solutions to my wants and needs. Occasionally it has worked. But occasionally it has not. If it doesn't I either return said product, if I can, and go looking again. Or, I have sometimes sent items out for repair. I think this is probably a somewhat familiar flow of events for many of us.

However. What we fail to consider while we are engaged in all this is the actual cost to us. Because there is a cost. Monetarily it may have been less (although even that is not always true if we were honest about it), but when you incorporate the time spent, the time away from pursuing our hobby or business, the lost opportunity costs, we would probably realize that it would have been more economical to buy new.

If we bought new from time to time when we needed these things we do experience benefits. The item has a warranty. It is likely to work as expected right out of the box. It usually comes with all the parts and pieces we need, and if not, it will almost always have literature included that tells us how the shutter performs, and what additional accessories we may like to have.

But there are extended benefits as well. In buying new we support the manufacturing industry that produces these shutters, or that may consider producing them if there was a viable market. And it isn't only shutters, it is also film holders and other items. You or I may have the required skills to construct a film holder, but does everyone who may want to shoot large format? Or are they also doomed to playing Ebay Roulette

As I mentioned earlier. I have no problem buying used, I do it a lot. I have no problem with you or anyone else buying used. But if EVERYONE buys used then no one will build new things, because no one is buying them. If this goes on long enough then pretty soon you run out of parts. This is not likely to happen in my lifetime. But it probably will happen in my grandson's lifetime. This mean that all the time I have spent training him to shoot an 8x10 field camera may be wasted because, even if he were inclined to use one, he may not be able to find it or keep it running if he does.

Actually, though a lot of time is spent speculating about the future of film, that really is not our biggest problem. Film can be made from scratch. You may not want to do it but you can mix up your own emulsion and coat glass plates or other objects relatively easily. But building shutters, lenses, or some other parts is not quite as easy.

Sorry about this long post. It really is only an observation. I hope you have a great week and have a chance to make some beautiful photographs soon.

This is a mirror of why I posted the thread in the first place. I'm fed up with "eBay roulette". I'm fed up with perpetually compensating for some fault in a second -hand item that I cannot fix, or afford to have fixed. The remedy is surely to buy new. It may cost me more in price but will save me all the waste you describe above.

RR

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from old Europe

Without entering the debate regarding the price or usefulness of new vs. second-hand mechanical Japanese-made shutters for LF lenses, the situation is as follows: to the best of my knowledge, this is the list of currently available LF lens shutters, and except Packard shutters, all are electro-mechanical and I'll make no comment regarding their price tag.
If you are aware of any other kind of new shutters suitable for LF lenses, I'll appreciate to know.
And I do not know if Sinar DB shutters, known as "Copal Sinar" in their 100% mechanical version, are still available as new items. If Copal discontinued mechanical shutters, there is a high probability that mechanical Copal-Sinar are discontinued.

The Packard shutter, crafted with pride in the USA! http://www.packardshutter.com
Yes one can argue that Packard shutters do not provide the same service as a Compur, Prontor ir Copal, but we are here to make an inventory of what is actually useable for LF lenses, available as a new item still in fabrication, and not new-old-stock-of-discontinued-items; therefore all categories of shutters for LF photography are admitted in this list, except the legendary French béret manual shutter dedicated to long exposure times (the ideal companion of your waterfall shots) (http://www.chapellerie-traclet.com/fr/2-berets/), which could appear as too provocative here.

The Rollei, made by DHW - Braunschweig, Germany
http://rolleiflex.us/collections/all/shutter

The Rodenstock electronic shutter, as presented at the 2012 Photokina; I remember that Sinar at its nearby booth had something very similar.
http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/en/main/news/eshutter/

The Schneider electronic shutter
http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-imaging/product-field/photo-lenses/products/large-format-lenses/helical-mount-and-accessories/#c1750

---------------------------------------------------------

As they say on http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/en/
Wide-Angel

I have always believed that a Wide Angel was looking upon me when I was taking LF pictures over 70° of field angle ;)

[EH21]

Hi Emmanuel,

Just to add to your list, I think Seiko may still be making some mechanical shutters and also DHW has their new USB controlled HS-1000 shutter. I have two of the HS-1000 shutters in my hands now for testing and they are quite promising. I do think Sinar also has a electronic shutter too, and Horseman made some electronic shutters but not sure if they are still available new.

Regards,
Eric Hiss
Rolleiflex USA