View Full Version : Deardorff v8 and copal shutter question

1-Apr-2014, 20:29
I've recently acquired a deardorff v8 and am still trying to educate myself on the new format. I have the option of using/possibly purchasing a calumet caltar pro series 8 1/4" 210mm lens with a copal #1 shutter (my friend has it mounted on his 4x5), however I'm curious if this has enough coverage for my 8x10?

Is the difference between the copal #s simply which format they're compatible with? If so, which copal is optimal for 8x10?

Also, when looking at lenses, I understand the image circle is a means of determining if it covers your format, but where do I find this info? Is that what the 8 1/4" figure is stating on this particular lens?

Lastly, in regards to the above, what is the image circle minimum of 8x10?

Thanks for bearing with me here... Total LF rookie


Keith Pitman
2-Apr-2014, 03:32
Click the button at the top of the page labeled "LF Home Page" and you will find a lot of LF info including lens coverage charts.

Lens coverage is independent of the shutter size. You do not need Copal 3 shuttered lenses for 8x10. I would avoid Copal 3 lenses as they are large and heavy. You can find a lot of useable lenses with 8x10 coverage in Copal 1 shutters.

The 8 1/4/210mm focal length does not indicate image circle/lens coverage. The focal length is approximately the distance from the lens to the film plane when the camera is focused at infinity.

8x10 requires a minimum image circle of about 312 mm (see the lens coverage charts).

I cannot speak to the 210 Caltar lens' coverage. Caltar lenses were manufactured by the major lens manufacturers and rebadged for Calumet. If you can figure out the OEM's equivalent lens, you may find it in the lens charts. I would not buy the lens if you do not know the coverage. You can find a lot of suitable lenses here on the forum, usually from reliable sellers.

Good luck with the "new" Deardorff. Great camera.

Michael Kadillak
2-Apr-2014, 05:08
My primary camera is 8x10 and four out of the 12 lenses I used with this camera come in a Copal 1 and the rest either Copal 3/3s or #5 Ilex. Sometimes the lens you find invaluable with either coverage and/or optical quality only comes in the larger shutter. Case in point is the Nikon 450M. Fabulous coverage and optical capabilities but what I like about this lens is the fact that I am able to reach around and rotate the f stop bar to close the lens down while I am carefully inspecting the ground glass. I also find the perspective it produces very appealing. Yes, the Fuji 450C is available in this focal length but at a higher price I have found. Economics will come into play at some point IMHO as will the appreciation for the most coverage possible as there is nothing more frustrating than creeping into the image circle if you are using movements. The 355 G Claron is another of my favorite 8x10 lenses and it screws directly into a Copal 3. Could not live without these two lenses as I use one of them each and every time the 8x10 goes on the tripod head.

Dan Dozer
2-Apr-2014, 07:34
I use my Schneider Symmar 210 in my 8 x 10 Deardorff frequently and it covers fine. It's in a copal #1 shutter. Image circle sizes for the Schneider lenses can be found on their website. My guess is that the Calumet and Schneider image circle sizes might not be very different, although I have never used a Calumet lens before. Also keep in mind that normally, as you get closer to things, the image circle get's larger. So, some lenses that might not quite cover when focused at infinity may cover very easily at portrait distances. You'll also discover that if you want to start trying portriat work, the "antique" lens market for 8 x 10 lenses offers a huge amount of different lense to work with, many of them won't have shutters on them. If you are going to go with protraits, get aquainted with packard shutters and/or just using the lens cap for 1/2 second exposures. You can also learn to use the "Galli Shutter". Do a search on the site and you'll find out what that is.

Keith Pitman
2-Apr-2014, 08:18
I was able to do some research and found Calumet sold two lines of Caltar Pro Series lenses. The first were manufactured by Komura and the 210 was a f/6.3 with an image circle of 270mm. The second Pro Series Caltar lenses were made by Schneider and were rebadged Xenar lenses. The 210 was a f/6.1 with an image circle of 249mm.

Also, after considering Michael's comment on 8x10 lenses, I checked my case with 8x10 lenses. Three out of four were in Copal 3 shutters so I guess I can say, "I don't often use 8x10, but when I do, I usually use Copal 3 lenses." The fourth lens was a G-Claron 305, a excellent "normal" lens on 8x10.

Finally, something else to consider when buying lenses should be filter size. Try to keep the filter size requirements for your lenses at 67 or 77 or 82mm. The larger filters are more expensive.

2-Apr-2014, 10:05
My Dagors 6.5 WA, 8.25, & 9.5 all cover 8x10 in a Copal 1 shutter. The 12", 14" Schneider, & Artars 19" & 24" are in Copal 3. Use gel filters. L

William Whitaker
2-Apr-2014, 10:37
Shutter numbers refer to the dimensions of the shutter (http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals), not to a particular film format. A Copal #1 is smaller than a Copal #3. They never made a #2, AFAIK (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80241-Curious-Copal-2). Copal #0 is smaller than #1, etc. Other shutter manufacturers had similar numbering schemes where, generally, the larger the number, the larger the shutter.

The lens design (especially the focal length and maximum aperture) dictates which shutter is appropriate. Faster lenses necessarily have larger diameters and, thus, require larger shutters. Longer lenses, too, in general require larger shutters for a given speed. As format size grows, so does the focal length requirement. Hence lenses for 8x10 and larger often require lenses that are physically too big to fit in a Copal #1. Certainly if you find yourself enamored of old portrait lenses (as many of us here are), you'll quickly find that conventional timed shutters are no longer even an option.

As others who have posted before me, I am not familiar with the Caltar lens you are considering. But I will add that a 210mm lens on 8x10 is pretty wide, roughly approximating a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera. You might want to start with something closer to "normal", which for 8x10 would be 12 or 14 inches (300 or 360mm). There are lots of lenses out there, for sale both on this forum and Ebay. Search this forum and you'll find many threads relating to lenses for 8x10.

11-Apr-2014, 23:18
Thanks, fellas. Very helpful info.
I was able to try it out and it turns out the 210mm in question does vignette a little bit when focused at infinity. I don't mind the look, but I'll most likely pass on it. If any of you have any decent lenses in the normal range with a shutter, or can point me in the right direction, I'm most interested in purchasing one.


Carsten Wolff
12-Apr-2014, 03:18
As already pointed out, this is a great start: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html
There are also various blogs, tables, the lens vademecum etc. that deal with vintage glass.

Len Middleton
12-Apr-2014, 07:05
They never made a #2, AFAIK (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80241-Curious-Copal-2).

That is really going to confuse my 355mm f9 Repro-Claron, and likely some older 240 Symmar convertibles as to what are they really mounted in... :D

Compur 2 were discontinued some time ago, although I do have a spare for the 355...

Carsten Wolff
12-Apr-2014, 07:12
That is really going to confuse my 355mm f9 Repro-Claron, and likely some older 240 Symmar convertibles as to what are they really mounted in... :D

Compur 2 were discontinued some time ago, although I do have a spare for the 355...

.....your lenses are mounted in Compur shutters. Copal never made #2s.

Len Middleton
12-Apr-2014, 07:31
.....your lenses are mounted in Compur shutters. Copal never made #2s.

Of course you are right, my bad... :o

Read what Will wrote, but missed the nuanced reference between the Copal and Compur...