21cm lens that covers 8x10 format [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

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SLVRGLTN

29-Mar-2014, 17:44

vinny

29-Mar-2014, 17:59

try a search:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?62302-210mm-Lens-for-8x10-Spotters-Guide

210 fujinon W (lettering inside barrel) what i use but not a lot of coverage
210 super angulon xl
210 sironar-s
200 grandagon
Sinaron WS 210mm 5.6

karl french

29-Mar-2014, 18:02

There are a number of threads on this topic.

Adding to Vinny's list.

21cm Schneider Angulon (what I'm currently using.)
8 1/4" Goerz Dagor (what I used to use.)
210/9 Computar

Dan Quan

29-Mar-2014, 18:05

I have listed a 210 G claron in the classifieds. Its in barrel and it's the dagor version.

Professional

29-Mar-2014, 21:29

And what about APO-Symmar-L 210mm/5.6?

SLVRGLTN

30-Mar-2014, 06:10

I appreciate the info everyone and I will take a look at what they cost one of the things I should of related was that I like the older lenses so does anyone know if it's feasible to find a Zeiss 21cm that covers 8x10 that is already in a modern shutter or an older shutter I'm just weighing my options on what's available thanks again...

Dan Fromm

30-Mar-2014, 06:38

This link http://sdrv.ms/1i4czGa will take you to a list of links to lens catalogs and the like, including to Zeiss and Zeiss' licensees. Click on it and read the catalogs for yourself.

mike rosenlof

30-Mar-2014, 07:30

lots of good choices here. The 'wides' built and marketed for photographic use are the obvious choices, come in shutters, work great. My 210 Sinaron-S (rodenstock Sironar-N) almost makes it.

in barrel, I have a JML Optical 8-1/4 inch f/8 (? maybe f/9) process lens that works very well on 8x10. I also have a 210mm repromaster f/9 that's good. The 213 f/9.25 repromaster is said to cover better. My 210 is kind of interesting in that it has a full aperture range with click stops, but only f/22 (optimum) is engraved on the barrel.

the key to using a 210 process lens on 8x10 at infinity (or close) is to find one from a vertical process camera. g-claron, repromaster, gerogon are three of the lens names that fit.

The lenses designed for a horizontal process camera generally have a narrower coverage. Apo-nikkor, apo-ronar, artar. These are great for longer lenses, but don't have extra wide coverage. (there are some extra expensive, extra wide apo-nikkors that exist, but are uncommon, and expensive)

carverlux

30-Mar-2014, 07:42

...does anyone know if it's feasible to find a Zeiss 21cm that covers 8x10 that is already in a modern shutter or an older shutter I'm just weighing my options on what's available thanks again...

Brian,

The 8x10 format diagonal is 325mm. To cover 325mm with a 210mm requires a lens with 76° degree coverage - without movements. If you need 25% movement in all directions, you now have an image circle need of 406mm or 16 inches. In this case, you will require a lens capable of at least 88° coverage.

For "older" Zeiss lenses, 3 different types were advertised by Zeiss to provide 90° degree coverage when stopped down: the Protar IIIa f/8, Protar V f/18 and the Double-Protar VIIa f/6,3, f/7 and f/7,7. These are quite widely available so good luck with your search. Many of these are excellent performers on 8x10 film even though they are 100 or more years old.

carver

StoneNYC

30-Mar-2014, 08:27

Brian,

The 8x10 format diagonal is 325mm. To cover 325mm with a 210mm requires a lens with 76° degree coverage - without movements. If you need 25% movement in all directions, you now have an image circle need of 406mm or 16 inches. In this case, you will require a lens capable of at least 88° coverage.

For "older" Zeiss lenses, 3 different types were advertised by Zeiss to provide 90° degree coverage when stopped down: the Protar IIIa f/8, Protar V f/18 and the Double-Protar VIIa f/6,3, f/7 and f/7,7. These are quite widely available so good luck with your search. Many of these are excellent performers on 8x10 film even though they are 100 or more years old.

carver

Does anyone know why they stopped making wide angle lenses for 8x10? It seems odd... I've seen 11x14 and even 17x20 ultra wide angle images, but 8x10 seems to have been skipped over...

Jim Noel

30-Mar-2014, 08:43

210 mm Computar Symmetrigon I wish I had never sold mine

Dan Fromm

30-Mar-2014, 08:47

Does anyone know why they stopped making wide angle lenses for 8x10? It seems odd... I've seen 11x14 and even 17x20 ultra wide angle images, but 8x10 seems to have been skipped over...

There's still one: https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=169&IID=1837 , if you have the money. The only other lens currently offered new that's wide angle on a format larger than 8x10 is https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=166&IID=1849 , which is a wide angle on 20x24, normalish with ample movements on smaller formats. Again, if you have the money.

The images you refer to were made with lenses that have been out of production for some time.

They all went out of production because of lack of demand.

Francisco J. Fernández

30-Mar-2014, 09:23

It's nice to see the amount of information in a few minutes. From my years. University not witnessed something. It's nice to be with you.

I have used many lenses 210 mm in 8x10 format, and if I remember all of them covered the 8x10 format without any problems,on infinite focus. Then some more movement allowed by its larger field of coverage, but the differences were not large. (210 mm telephoto lenses do not cover 8x10 at infinity, but if they do distances of less than 5 meters). I always mean lens "standard or call normal lens" that are not designed telephoto or wide angle.

The equivalent angle of view for 35mm format is a wide angle of 28 mm but with no apparent distortion (usually no curvature of lines seen with the camera level).

There seems to be looking for a wide angle ... actually the visual impression is like attaching 4 pictures of the view of a camera 210 4x5 "together.

This has been used for years by architectural photographers (among whom I include myself) even without saying so in books like Kodak "Large Format Fotography" (I think that was the name ... I do not have on hand) were shown photographs of a inside cathedral in London made with a 210 mm (not saying anything more ... you have to read between the lines).

All spoke of many lenses, and they are all very good and valid ... but I remember 2 in particular Voigtlander Heliar and Voigtlander Xenar because both are very bright f: 4.5 despite having very different optical designs (one is symmetric and the other asymmetric, reminiscent of Planar and Tessar Zeiss).

The series APO for repro and enlarging covers the 8x10 format (that allows macro quality to them, even the amount their front and back bodies in a suitable shutter n º 0 or # 1 or # 3 Copal or Compur .... I love doing that).

For years I use a APO LANTHAR, APO SKOPAR and APO RONAR of 210mm on my 8x10 for still lifes.
...

StoneNYC

30-Mar-2014, 09:48

There's still one: https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=169&IID=1837 , if you have the money. The only other lens currently offered new that's wide angle on a format larger than 8x10 is https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=166&IID=1849 , which is a wide angle on 20x24, normalish with ample movements on smaller formats. Again, if you have the money.

The images you refer to were made with lenses that have been out of production for some time.

They all went out of production because of lack of demand.

Hahaha! They justified the price by making it out of gold! Hahaha :)

If course a 20x24 lens new I can see being that price. Cool thanks. When I start shooting 20x24 I'll pick one up ;)

And this is the most useful thing ever

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/31/paja2ute.jpg

Kirk Gittings

30-Mar-2014, 10:24

Widest lens that will cover 8x10 is the Nikkor 120 SW if I am not mistaken?

Vaughn

30-Mar-2014, 10:25

210 mm Computar Symmetrigon I wish I had never sold mine

Far as I know, it will not cover 8x10 completely, but I guess I could put mine on the 8x10 one of these days and find out. It is listed in the company's info sheet as having a "usable angle of view" of 72 degrees. Image circle at f6.3 is 242mm and at f22 it is 308mm. So at f64 it just might cover 8x10. It is a great 5x7 lens.

I have a Wollensak Graphic Raptar Wide Field 210mm/6.8 that does a nice job on 8x10. Small lens w/o shutter.

Francisco J. Fernández

30-Mar-2014, 10:36

Hey, as if the question was about 21 cm (210 mm) covers 8x10. I have not mentioned other lenses ....

but so far I have spoken of 210 mm focus lens with large aperture and infinity.

It is now also speaks of more wide angle vision ... well, a Symmar (Symmar-S too) and convertible Symmar 180 mm cover to infinity focus and open diaphragm the closer 8x10 format (no movement or less).

and also a Symmar 150 mm (and Symmar-S and convertivle too) focused at 5 meters, or less distance, covers a 8x10 format (no movement)

Any lens, whatever it is, if located at a sufficient distance from the focal plane, and is focusing, formats will cover much larger than those for which it was designed.

Change the scale of reproduction and not focus to infinity. But it may even cover a 8x10 PHOTOMACROGRAPHY (Schneider Xenoplan 25 mm f: 1.9 C mount cover to 8x10 and more)

Francisco J. Fernández

30-Mar-2014, 10:50

I'm used to meet and talk to the German lens (perhaps by being European) so some of the names of lens you mention, I have read those names, and those sound on book for years, but not know

Nicolasllasera

30-Mar-2014, 11:10

Widest lens that will cover 8x10 is the Nikkor 120 SW if I am not mistaken?

As far as I know the Schneider 110mm XL covers and the Hypergon 90mm. I shoot a 120mm SW a lot on my 8x10 and it even allows a little movement on my 8x10 Wehman.

StoneNYC

30-Mar-2014, 11:14

I wonder how difficult it would be to extrapolate from the Fujinon 300mm C type design and attain some lenses that match the shape but larger to create your own? I know optics are complex but if the lenses are pre-made can't you somehow make your own from currently available ones to make something wide angle that covers 8x10 generously while also being light?

Jody_S

30-Mar-2014, 11:51

The 213 f/9.25 repromaster is said to cover better.

I have this, it is my sharpest 210mm 8x10 lens. Next is my Fujinon-W, then Dagor. My (regrettably, sold) Apo-Gerogon (older, Dagor design) was very similar in sharpness to the Fujinon-W with perhaps a nicer 'look', better than the uncoated Dagor that I still have.

vinny

30-Mar-2014, 11:56

I also have a 210 f9 repromaster and it's wicked sharp but no shutter. They can be hade for cheap or free in my case.

Regular Rod

30-Mar-2014, 15:53

I'm in search of a 21cm lens that covers the 8x10 format if anyone knows more info or any specifics on what to search for I prefer something in a shutter but a barrel would be ok any ideas if these can be mounted into a modern shutter like a Copal shutter. Any info would be greatly appreciated

Thanks again

Brian

I use a Computar f9 210. Very sharp lens and tiny too. The bonus is that it is convertible to a 370, so you get two focal lengths in one lens...

This list is very helpful... http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenseslist.html

RR

8x10 user

30-Mar-2014, 16:33

Add the 210mm Super Symmar HM to the list. "Ultra sharp"

SLVRGLTN

31-Mar-2014, 03:36

koh303

2-Apr-2014, 16:26

Dan Fromm

2-Apr-2014, 17:12

What about the Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar 21cm the fstops are 4.5 to 36 any know the coverage of this lens I looked on cameraeccentric but I couldn't find any reference to it... It's in a compound shutter I think

Practice looking. Start here http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_2.html, see p. 23. You'll see that the recommended focal length for 8x10 is 40 cm. That's a very strong hint that the 21 cm/4.5, recommended for 5x7, won't cover 8x10.

And turn down the wishful thinking. If a lens isn't sold as a wide angle, it usually isn't a wide angle. The only wide angle Tessars Zeiss made were f/8 lenses for Contax and the original Exakta.

Oren Grad

2-Apr-2014, 18:12

The only wide angle Tessars Zeiss made were f/8 lenses for Contax and the original Exakta.

Ahhh... we forget:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?73948-Plasmat-vs-Tessar-vs-Dialyte&p=705165&viewfull=1#post705165

Dan Fromm

3-Apr-2014, 02:15

Oren, you're right, I'd forgotten the 35/2.8 Tessar used in the Yashica T3 and T4 and who knows what other cameras. To turn weasel for a moment, the 35 mm still normal focal length (diagonal of the format) is 43 mm so 35 mm isn't particularly wide. Scaled up to 210 mm it won't cover 8x10.

Oren Grad

3-Apr-2014, 07:41

Scaled up to 210 mm it won't cover 8x10.

Yes. I'm plainly nitpicking here. I agree that among LF lenses, tessars are not the place to look for "sleepers" with unusually or unexpectedly wide coverage.

Andrew O'Neill

3-Apr-2014, 07:52

Widest lens that will cover 8x10 is the Nikkor 120 SW if I am not mistaken?

Kirk, the 110XL covers 8x10. I've borrowed my friend's on several occasions.

My Nikkor 210W just covers 8x10. No room for movements.

SLVRGLTN

3-Apr-2014, 10:23

My Nikkor 210W just covers 8x10. No room for movements.[/QUOTE]

So this lens covers 8x10 without any movements I have a Nikor W 5.6 210mm lens already I haven't even taken it out of the original box to use it waiting on my lensboard to attach it too... I do appreciate the info and please don't shoot the noobie... I'm still learning we all have to start from somewhere

Drew Wiley

3-Apr-2014, 10:48

It should have probably been pointed out that there's a pretty big difference between the regular Computar Symmetrigon and the 210/9 version, which is similar to the Kowa Graphic f/9, if not identical. There was one other marketing name of this lens too, if I recall correctly. It's only the f/9's which had sufficient coverage.

Bernice Loui

3-Apr-2014, 10:53

Schneider specified image circle for the 110XL is 288mm @f22. Tried using this lens on 8x10 when it was newly introduced, it almost covers but not quite and the light fall off is less than acceptable. Even on 5x7, the light fall off of the 110mm XL can be a problem at times.

There is much talk and discussion about lens coverage, but less about light fall off and image quality at the limits of a lens image circle.

While there are a number of 210mm lenses that will "cover" 8x10, few produce proper illumination without a center filter and fewer will allow significant camera movement.

Of the 200mm wide angle lenses for 8x10, the 200mm Grandagon has not been mentioned yet and it is one of the ideal wide angles for 8x10.

Bernice

Kirk, the 110XL covers 8x10. I've borrowed my friend's on several occasions.

My Nikkor 210W just covers 8x10. No room for movements.

Dan Fromm

3-Apr-2014, 11:56

Bernice, with a 210 mm lens cos^4 costs a bit more than 1 stop ~ 150 mm off-axis (that's 8x10). Are you sure that's unacceptable?

Andrew O'Neill

3-Apr-2014, 13:59

Rod_B

3-Apr-2014, 14:11

Hi Andrew,

Just wondering whether you were using a centre filter on the 110XL for that shot, or whether you've lightened the corners?

Regards,

Rod.

Andrew O'Neill

3-Apr-2014, 15:32

Let me check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure there is no centre filter on it. I haven't lighted the corners, by the way. I love this lens and if I could afford one, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!

StoneNYC

3-Apr-2014, 16:08

This was shot with the 110XL on 8x10.

Can we see it to the rebate? (I know it's asking a lot) I'm curious how much it's cropped but also to see the edges...

Was there any room for movements at all? Even rear movements?

Bernice Loui

3-Apr-2014, 17:14

Depends on the individual needs and their expectations..

For some, one stop would be more than acceptable, for others one stop would not be acceptable. For me and this applies to me only, one stop is far too much light fall off center to edge. Some examples from test images made in the early 1990's using a 8x10 Sinar F2, Agfa Chrome RS100, bright sunny clear day with uniform sky blue illumination.

180mm f18 Wide angle Protar for 8x10 image made at f32.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UsaM8p2UI0c/Uz3z_xcxElI/AAAAAAAAAVs/REtWD15uB9o/s512/180mm%25208x10%2520Protar%2520%2540%2520f32.jpg

Note the light fall off from center to edge. This lens would conform to cos^4 theoretical light fall off of a non-corrected lens.

155mm f6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon, image made at f22.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F6smTj0QOA4/Uz3z632toGI/AAAAAAAAAVk/gQQCNqgtF50/s512/155mm%2520Grandagon%2520%2540%2520f22.jpg

Note the light fall off from center to edge. This is a modern wide angle lens design which reduced light fall off to about COS^3. Light fall off is still quite pronounced.

200mm f6.8 Grandagon, image made at f22.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CjHZ-WrkN_Q/Uz30En7HPAI/AAAAAAAAAV0/zibEiARpnsk/s576/200mm%2520Grandagon%2520%2540%2520f22.jpg

Light fall off is also reduce to about COS^3 which follows the 155mm f6.8 Grandagon, except due to the longer focal length light fall off is improved but there is still some visible light fall off at the corners of this image.
This is my fave 8x10 wide angle lens from that time. It is sharp with plenty of coverage for 8x10, good contrast and all those nice things modern wide angle lenses offer.. except it is an absolute BOAT ANCHOR in weight and size. Add this to the size, weight and bulk of a 8x10 camera with all the related bits to burn film.. is one of the many reasons why I stopped doing 8x10.

Light fall off of wide angle lenses are part of how they function and limited by the laws of physics as we know them currently. This reality of lens personality can be used for artistic expression as much as adding a proper center filter to correct for light fall off which will significantly reduce this effect. In end, this is another aspect of lens personality that can be a good or bad thing..

One more item.. Back in the day, all my lens testing was done using color transparency film and it must meet my expectations or the specific lens not accepted. This would be difficult to do today for a host of reasons. Know this was my point of reference from years ago and based on these results, the lenses that ended up in the pile are the ones that become used for making images.. More than a few lenses from back then did not make it into the pile for various reasons.

Bernice

Bernice, with a 210 mm lens cos^4 costs a bit more than 1 stop ~ 150 mm off-axis (that's 8x10). Are you sure that's unacceptable?

Bernice Loui

3-Apr-2014, 17:22

That 110mm XL remains my all time Fave wide angle for 5x7 along with the 150mm XL. Owned them since new and will stay with me as long as I'm doing sheet film..

They ARE that good..

Bernice

Let me check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure there is no centre filter on it. I haven't lighted the corners, by the way. I love this lens and if I could afford one, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!

Andrew O'Neill

3-Apr-2014, 17:38

Can we see it to the rebate? (I know it's asking a lot) I'm curious how much it's cropped but also to see the edges...

Was there any room for movements at all? Even rear movements?

You are seeing almost the entire negative, Stone. I cropped a few mm from both sides when I made the digital negative. Also, a centre filter was not used.

Jim Andrada

3-Apr-2014, 17:41

I've been fairly happy with a 115mm Grandagon on 8 x 10. It does get a bit soft at the corners. but I usually leave a little space all around and don't frame all that tightly so it doesn't bother me all that much for B&W. It all depends on what you like - if the sky is softer in the corners it's OK with me. Others would hate it.