Thinking banquet aloud

[andreios]

Greetings to all you DIY folks :)

I would like to share with you my recent idea and ask you kindly for your thoughts / advice...

I am very much intrigued with the panoramic format lately and have desire to shoot 7x17 format. However, I cannot afford buying a new camera, and even the old Korona or Folmer Schwing cameras are in the end too pricey for my pocket - especcially when I count in the freight, customs, taxes and all the fees. I think that getting a pair of holders would be difficult enough.

I can buy 7x17 xray for less than a dollar per sheet and therefore I am trying to come up with a cheap solution for a camera. However, my DIY skills are not that advanced that I would feel confident of building a complete camera myself.

Now, i was looking at the old banquet cameras and an idea occur to me, that maybe I could get a Korona or a similar camera in 8x10 format and make a wider "banquet" rear bed and build a 7x17 rear frame to fit the holders. And I would see whether I will tackle bellows-making myself or just have them made.

My questions therefore are - has anyone else done something like that? Is it possible? What are the obstacles that I cannot see?
Is any of the old cameras - Koronas, Kodak 2Ds, Burke&Jamses,... better to adapt in this way than the others?

Thank you in advance for your insights.

Andrej

[jp]

With humble woodworking skills and minimal budget, don't forget pinhole.

[andreios]

Thanks, I am not forgetting it - I already have my drawings ready for a "one shot" pinhole gig (not having any holders yet).

[Lachlan 717]

Perhaps get in touch with another camera builder in Czech Republic, Filip Habart. He's building LF and ULF components. PM me if you'd like his email address.

[coisasdavida]

I guess I just went through the same questioning.
It started with a 50 sheet box of 8x20" film that I got a while ago.
If I ever decided this is the thing, maybe I'll get a proper equipment then.
Right now I figured three holders would do, since I had 50 sheets, each face would get an average of 8 loading and unloading operations.
Black gatorfoam and black crescent board seem OK for such a task and longevity. So I made my first holder last week as a proof of concept. Many things went wrong but I have the most important for now, the T distance.
I made some pics and as soon as I can I'll post them.

[andreios]

Perhaps get in touch with another camera builder in Czech Republic, Filip Habart. He's building LF and ULF components. PM me if you'd like his email address.

Thanks, I am already in touch with him, although he's not what I would call cheap.. But he does some fantastic work so I do understand his prices.

[andreios]

I guess I just went through the same questioning.
It started with a 50 sheet box of 8x20" film that I got a while ago.
If I ever decided this is the thing, maybe I'll get a proper equipment then.
Right now I figured three holders would do, since I had 50 sheets, each face would get an average of 8 loading and unloading operations.
Black gatorfoam and black crescent board seem OK for such a task and longevity. So I made my first holder last week as a proof of concept. Many things went wrong but I have the most important for now, the T distance.
I made some pics and as soon as I can I'll post them.

I'll be interested in that!

[el french]

Now, i was looking at the old banquet cameras and an idea occur to me, that maybe I could get a Korona or a similar camera in 8x10 format and make a wider "banquet" rear bed and build a 7x17 rear frame to fit the holders. And I would see whether I will tackle bellows-making myself or just have them made.

Once you build the rear frame and the bellows, there isn't much left to build other than the front standard :) At least nothing that would require a lot more DIY skills.

[andreios]

Once you build the rear frame and the bellows, there isn't much left to build other than the front standard :) At least nothing that would require a lot more DIY skills.

Well, there is the focusing rack, front movements... Quite a lot in my eyes..

[Leonard Robertson]

Finding a wooden field camera with a poor condition bellows and making a new rear frame and bellows certainly seems worth trying. An 8X10 with a bad bellows should be fairly inexpensive since most people don't want to spend what a new bellows will cost. Occasionally on eBay you see 8X10 cameras which are missing the 8X10 back and that should reduce the price greatly.

Part of what you need to think about in designing your 7X17 is what lens or lenses you want to use. Here is a post with lens information http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?14330-7x17-lenses
If you can get along with a 300mm or 360mm lens the length of the bed and bellows can be much shorter than if you also want to be able to use a 600mm lens. If you use a shorter focal length lens, it seems to me you may be able to make a "bag" bellows rather than the traditional folded bellows. A bag bellows looks like it would be much easier to make.

When looking for a wooden camera to start your project, if you can find an Ansco, some of them have a front tilt of the lens board built in. An Eastman or other camera without front tilt can be modified to have this movement or a front tilt lens board can be made. Try to find a camera with as large a lens board as possible in case you want to use some large diameter process lens.

You might try to locate a serious amateur woodworker to help with this project. Paying someone with the right tools and gluing clamps could save you hours and hours of time.

One of my long-term future projects is to build a back to use some 8X20 film holders I have. But I want to base this on my Sinar Norma monorail camera so I have move movements than most of the older field cameras and the Sinar allows unlimited extension with easily available add-on rails. GlennView (http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm) has conversions for Sinars in various large formats, but I'm too cheap to do anything but try to build my own.

Len

[Lachlan 717]

I don't see the need for a bag bellow on 7x17". The shortest, easiest-to-find WA lens to cover this format is around 200mm, allowing significant bellows draw when focused at infinity.

Bag bellows are, as you wrote, a much easier option to make, and I would suggest neoprene as a fabric to consider.

[Tin Can]

Yes, pics please!


I guess I just went through the same questioning.
It started with a 50 sheet box of 8x20" film that I got a while ago.
If I ever decided this is the thing, maybe I'll get a proper equipment then.
Right now I figured three holders would do, since I had 50 sheets, each face would get an average of 8 loading and unloading operations.
Black gatorfoam and black crescent board seem OK for such a task and longevity. So I made my first holder last week as a proof of concept. Many things went wrong but I have the most important for now, the T distance.
I made some pics and as soon as I can I'll post them.

[coisasdavida]

Yes, pics please!

OK, a couple to start with:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/13363225185_d20c950ef4_z.jpg

The layers of material already cut and waiting to be glued together.
This accounts for only one side of the holder.
From top to bottom:

Gatorfoam strips to make the final frame above the darkslide
Crescent board darkslide and strips to make a frame around it
Gatorfoam strips to separate film stage from darkslide
some strips of a 700gsm black card to make a frame for the film
main piece of Gatorfoam the divides the film holder in half

And here a test with a ruined 8x10" negative

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/13363583224_26f28f7fff_z.jpg

[coisasdavida]

I made a few mistakes when I cut the pieces, so I had to make some new ones as I moved forward with the gluing.
I cut a slot for some black velvet to serve as a light trap. It wasn't perfect, I'll probably have to rethink the way to do it.
So I still don't have good pictures of this stage.

[Tin Can]

Look here at what I did for 11x14 holder mods. The acrylic works real smoothly, better than store bought for sliding film in.

Tape is your friend.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104102-Levy-Process-camera-11x14-DIY-film-holder-mod

[coisasdavida]

A 1/4" acrylic septum would be nice instead of gatorfoam.
I even considered a 1/8" aluminum septum before.
I decided to go with gatorfoam because I was buying a whole sheet anyway.
Double sided tape would mean a budget increase.

I should have added some info that could help you understand my decisions, besides having some film and not believing I will get more in the future. I have film at three different sizes. Some 8x20", some 12x16" (and 12x18" that I will cut down) and some in 16x20" as well.
The camera I'm building is 20x20" to allow for horizontal and vertical shots with any of the above sizes.

So I'm planning for at least 3 holders in each of these sizes, any savings in one holder will multiply by the factor of the film area involved in this.

On the other hand I'm not sure if I'll find this ULF thing amazing or if I'll get tired of carrying all this stuff around pretty quick. Another reason not to put lots of money on these 8x20" holders for now.

I'll be using sugar maple for wood. I got a big piece of it in 2002 when I was living in Canada. I used it to make a crib for my first son. The crib came back with us to Brazil. A friend's daughter used for a while. My second came in 2011 and used it too, but now he is using a regular bed. It was an old idea to make this crib into a camera. A friend is letting me use her shop, I have the wood, I own a few lenses that will cover. I really had to buy some tools and the stuff to make the holders.

If this grows to a bigger thing I'll make a nice 14x17" back, buy fresh x-ray film and make nicier holders for it.

[Tin Can]

Well I think ULf is addictive, I just souped my first two 11x14 X-Ray portraits and they are hanging to dry now.

I had the grandkids frame and focus each other at 1.5 to 1. I messed a darkslide pull on one shot, but I got 2 huge faces, that look fantastic as negatives.

This is with my new Richard Ritter holders, RR back and Studio Deardorff. Never used the complete rig before today. Yes, I spent a wad putting it together, but tonight I am very happy. Next I shoot real film.

That DIY stuff I gave up on, before ever using it, when this camera came into sight.


I will be making a 14x17 X-Ray fixed focus box this summer.

Happy trails!


A 1/4" acrylic septum would be nice instead of gatorfoam.
I even considered a 1/8" aluminum septum before.
I decided to go with gatorfoam because I was buying a whole sheet anyway.
Double sided tape would mean a budget increase.

I should have added some info that could help you understand my decisions, besides having some film and not believing I will get more in the future. I have film at three different sizes. Some 8x20", some 12x16" (and 12x18" that I will cut down) and some in 16x20" as well.
The camera I'm building is 20x20" to allow for horizontal and vertical shots with any of the above sizes.

So I'm planning for at least 3 holders in each of these sizes, any savings in one holder will multiply by the factor of the film area involved in this.

On the other hand I'm not sure if I'll find this ULF thing amazing or if I'll get tired of carrying all this stuff around pretty quick. Another reason not to put lots of money on these 8x20" holders for now.

I'll be using sugar maple for wood. I got a big piece of it in 2002 when I was living in Canada. I used it to make a crib for my first son. The crib came back with us to Brazil. A friend's daughter used for a while. My second came in 2011 and used it too, but now he is using a regular bed. It was an old idea to make this crib into a camera. A friend is letting me use her shop, I have the wood, I own a few lenses that will cover. I really had to buy some tools and the stuff to make the holders.

If this grows to a bigger thing I'll make a nice 14x17" back, buy fresh x-ray film and make nicier holders for it.

[andreios]

Finding a wooden field camera with a poor condition bellows and making a new rear frame and bellows certainly seems worth trying. An 8X10 with a bad bellows should be fairly inexpensive since most people don't want to spend what a new bellows will cost. Occasionally on eBay you see 8X10 cameras which are missing the 8X10 back and that should reduce the price greatly.

Part of what you need to think about in designing your 7X17 is what lens or lenses you want to use. Here is a post with lens information http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?14330-7x17-lenses
If you can get along with a 300mm or 360mm lens the length of the bed and bellows can be much shorter than if you also want to be able to use a 600mm lens. If you use a shorter focal length lens, it seems to me you may be able to make a "bag" bellows rather than the traditional folded bellows. A bag bellows looks like it would be much easier to make.


Len

Hi Leonard,
thanks for your input, very appreciated. It seems that I am already set with lenses for my desired format - I have a 19in Red Dot Artar and have recently bought a 305mm G Claron, so that's fine. Therefore the bellows would have to be at least 600-700mm (to allow close-ups with the shorter lens and enough room for the longer lens. Therefore I don't think a bag bellows would be the best idea (although I might tackle them for start with the shorter lens - if I find a suitable material for a suitable price - and my wife would be willing to help with the sewing.. :)

Thanks also for the camera advice... But your last remark set me thinking - I also have (and love using) a Sinar Norma, maybe I could adapt that? Any clues?

[andreios]

OK, a couple to start with:

Thanks for the pics, very useful!

[Leonard Robertson]

Hi andreois - The two lenses you have sound like a great pair for 7X17. You really shouldn't need anything else but those. When I mentioned a bag bellows, I was thinking only of something easy to make, not that you "need" the flexibility of it. A bag bellows might work okay for your 305mm, but for the 19" a normal folded bellows seems necessary.

My thoughts on hacking a larger format back onto a Sinar Norma rear standard:
If you loosen the rear tilt knob on a Norma all the way, the knob and steel rod it is attached to withdraw from the aluminum blocks which carry the tubular uprights. My plan is to make new aluminum blocks. Across the top of these blocks would be a piece of flat aluminum bolted to the two blocks. I'm not sure how thick or how wide this aluminum plate would need to be. Bolted down to this plate would be a rectangular wooden frame with the rear of the bellows inside, and the camera back attached to the rear of the frame. Folmer and Schwing banquet cameras had the back glued to the rear frame rather than being removable like a normal view camera. I suspect this results in a much sturdier and lighter weight rear assembly. There would be no rear rise/fall movement like the 4X5 Norma, but by using front and rear tilts I think the same results could be had. With 7X17 I would expect to run out of lens coverage anyway if trying to use a great deal of camera movement.

If more front rise is needed, the caps on top of the upright tubes can be unscrewed and extension rods screwed into the uprights. I believe Glenn Evans on his site shows this trick.

The big unknown is how well the Norma rear standard base would handle the increased weight and width of a 7X17 or 8X20 back and film holder. It may be the Norma base just isn't sturdy enough to do this.There is always the option of making a "wind brace" from the top of the rear standard to the front standard or down to a tripod leg. A brace to the tripod is probably a good idea anyway if you are only using one rail clamp on the tripod head. Sinar made a long plate to support two rail clamps when using long extensions. This probably works well although more weight and pieces to carry.

Please let me know if you see any obvious fault with my conversion daydream. I have trouble visualizing how things like this go together until I actually have the pieces in my hand.

Len

[Tin Can]

There was a guy from Europe on eBay selling a 20x24 back that would fit right on a Sinar P or P2. Can't find him now, but it was dead simple and appeared fine in pictures. Seems nobody bought his $1300 20x24 back, with GG, one holder and a bellows set. A very good deal.

Everyone should read Glenn View he has great ideas and shares them freely. Or he can make it for you. Look at this camera on eBay, I plan to copy some parts of this design. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321346752347?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

It's either time or money, if you want to play.

[Lachlan 717]

The 20x24" back was made by Filip, I think.

[andreios]

Everyone should read Glenn View he has great ideas and shares them freely. Or he can make it for you. Look at this camera on eBay, I plan to copy some parts of this design. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321346752347?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

It's either time or money, if you want to play.

Thanks Randy for the link! That looks like a very good design! Indeed I had already thought about something similar but without the focusing bellows on the rear. Now I wonder whether it would make much difference if they were put on the front, behind the lens - for that one could probably used a cheap set of 5x7 or 8x10 bellows found regularly on the 'bay.. I'll give it some more thought.
But one thing is plain - the first and most important thing would be to get hold of a holder or three.

[andreios]

Hi andreois - The two lenses you have sound like a great pair for 7X17. You really shouldn't need anything else but those. When I mentioned a bag bellows, I was thinking only of something easy to make, not that you "need" the flexibility of it. A bag bellows might work okay for your 305mm, but for the 19" a normal folded bellows seems necessary.

My thoughts on hacking a larger format back onto a Sinar Norma rear standard:
If you loosen the rear tilt knob on a Norma all the way, the knob and steel rod it is attached to withdraw from the aluminum blocks which carry the tubular uprights. My plan is to make new aluminum blocks. Across the top of these blocks would be a piece of flat aluminum bolted to the two blocks. I'm not sure how thick or how wide this aluminum plate would need to be. Bolted down to this plate would be a rectangular wooden frame with the rear of the bellows inside, and the camera back attached to the rear of the frame. Folmer and Schwing banquet cameras had the back glued to the rear frame rather than being removable like a normal view camera. I suspect this results in a much sturdier and lighter weight rear assembly. There would be no rear rise/fall movement like the 4X5 Norma, but by using front and rear tilts I think the same results could be had. With 7X17 I would expect to run out of lens coverage anyway if trying to use a great deal of camera movement.

If more front rise is needed, the caps on top of the upright tubes can be unscrewed and extension rods screwed into the uprights. I believe Glenn Evans on his site shows this trick.

The big unknown is how well the Norma rear standard base would handle the increased weight and width of a 7X17 or 8X20 back and film holder. It may be the Norma base just isn't sturdy enough to do this.There is always the option of making a "wind brace" from the top of the rear standard to the front standard or down to a tripod leg. A brace to the tripod is probably a good idea anyway if you are only using one rail clamp on the tripod head. Sinar made a long plate to support two rail clamps when using long extensions. This probably works well although more weight and pieces to carry.

Please let me know if you see any obvious fault with my conversion daydream. I have trouble visualizing how things like this go together until I actually have the pieces in my hand.

Len


Hi Len, thanks for your conversion dream... :) It does look about right to me.. My norma is the 5x7, for a bigger rear frame I think I would need an 8x10 - which are not easy to find. Maybe it would be easier to use a P/P2 8x10 (heavy duty) rear bearing - they do appear from time to time on european 'bays. And I think this is the solution that Glenn uses also. Anyway, partly to reduce the weight as well as building-skills demand I was thinking using not a spring back but a removable GG - similar to Argentum Cameras design.

[Lachlan 717]

There was a guy in New Zealand making "cheap" backs that used elastic/rubber rather than steel springs. If you'd like me to try to find him, just let me know.

[coisasdavida]

There was a guy in New Zealand making "cheap" backs that used elastic/rubber rather than steel springs. If you'd like me to try to find him, just let me know.

I'd love to see this.

[andreios]

There was a guy in New Zealand making "cheap" backs that used elastic/rubber rather than steel springs. If you'd like me to try to find him, just let me know.

So would I!

[Lachlan 717]

Right; I'll get on to it. I think that there's a YouTube video that he made somewhere. Stay tuned...

[Lachlan 717]

Found it:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg2EVIlcMSY

Also, he's on eBay as seller "tuiteka ".

[Tin Can]

Yes. Big holders are hard to find. Get them first and build the camera back to match. Above 8x10 nothing is really standard. And despite reports here, I consider 'T' dimensions critical. Some are now saying out of whack by 10mm is 'OK'. I don't buy that silliness.

Others say check by final image... Maybe soft focus has infected us.

Each to his own.


Thanks Randy for the link! That looks like a very good design! Indeed I had already thought about something similar but without the focusing bellows on the rear. Now I wonder whether it would make much difference if they were put on the front, behind the lens - for that one could probably used a cheap set of 5x7 or 8x10 bellows found regularly on the 'bay.. I'll give it some more thought.
But one thing is plain - the first and most important thing would be to get hold of a holder or three.

[Dan Dozer]

If you are going to build the back your self and buy the holders, it is absolutely critical that you get the film holders first and build the back to fit. Film holders for ULF cameras were not built to the same conventional standards among the different companies and even today, the new manufacturers are different. Dimensions are different among the different holders.

I designed and built my own 8 x 20 camera a few years ago. The one big thing you will need to consider regarding using an existing camera and building a back for it is whether or not the camera bed is long enough for it. I've found that having gear tracks isn't really needed even for fine focusing. Just moving the camera back forwards and back sliding on a rail works just fine. If you need to fashion a back rail, you might want to consider this. The single hardest thing I encountered was building film holders. I know that others have successfully made them, but I had continuous problems with light leaks in the corners. Eventually, I bought film holders from Chamonix. BTW - Chamonix makes what I believe are the best holders around. for ULF film.

Bellows are not hard to make, but will take some time. No special tools are needed other than to have the front and rear frames to mount the bellows to. These are pretty simple wooden frames. If you are intersted in making a bellows yourself, send me a PM with your E-mail address and I can send you a little write up on how I made mine.

Also - get in touch with Jim Fitzgerald here. He has built his own ULF cameras before and will be a great resource for you with lots of tips and advice.

[trundrumbalind]

Are you kidding!?
I'm having a hard time modding my p2 for a 14x17 back right now and it'll probably en up costing more than $1,300. No idea where that 20x24 mod is now?


There was a guy from Europe on eBay selling a 20x24 back that would fit right on a Sinar P or P2. Can't find him now, but it was dead simple and appeared fine in pictures. Seems nobody bought his $1300 20x24 back, with GG, one holder and a bellows set. A very good deal.

Everyone should read Glenn View he has great ideas and shares them freely. Or he can make it for you. Look at this camera on eBay, I plan to copy some parts of this design. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321346752347?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

It's either time or money, if you want to play.