Image differences between Schneider 210mm f/8 SA and 210 F5.6 XL?

[johnmsanderson]

Hi,

Would love to hear the optical differences of these two lenses.

Thanks...

[8x10 user]

The XL is smaller (not small), sharper, and has brighter focusing.

[ic-racer]

I think you are asking "Is the cheaper, larger, dimmer lens just as good as the more expensive, smaller brighter lens"
Probably "yes," but these questions never have straightforward answers.

[Daniel Stone]

The 210XL has a massive front element, and a smaller rear element

The 210SA (F8) has a massive front element, AND an equally massive rear element. And it's heavier.
It'll probably be the easier lens to source used however.

Both use Copal 3 shutters, and getting any sort of filter to fit them will be quite hard unless you have gobs of cash in hand ;)

[8x10 user]

Right... I once happened upon a miss-listed a NOS filter for the 210XL. I was able to trade it in to a dealer for $900 in film. They both use the same filter and I think have a cos to the 4th light fall off. The Grandagon N has slightly better light falloff (cos to the 3rd) due to a trick known as "pupil distortion".

All three lenses are more for 11x14, if you are using 8x10 there are many more affordable and smaller options with equal sharpness.

If money is no issue and you want to shoot 11x14 with the sharpest lenses then get the SSXL with center filter and you will have a system capable of truly insane resolution (when combined with a high end scanner or enlarger)... If that is the case you should also pm with an "offer that I cannot refuse" for one of my last boxes of 11x14 Provia that I have been saving in the freezer ;)

[johnmsanderson]

Right... I once happened upon a miss-listed a NOS filter for the 210XL. I was able to trade it in to a dealer for $900 in film. They both use the same filter and I think have a cos to the 4th light fall off. The Grandagon N has slightly better light falloff (cos to the 3rd) due to a trick known as "pupil distortion".

All three lenses are more for 11x14, if you are using 8x10 there are many more affordable and smaller options with equal sharpness.

If money is no issue and you want to shoot 11x14 with the sharpest lenses then get the SSXL with center filter and you will have a system capable of truly insane resolution (when combined with a high end scanner or enlarger)... If that is the case you should also pm with an "offer that I cannot refuse" for one of my last boxes of 11x14 Provia that I have been saving in the freezer ;)

LOL. Thanks for the feedback but think I will stick with 8x10. I am looking for something in the 210 range for 8x10 that has enough coverage for architecture... tried a bunch including the Fujinon 210 CM W didn't work out.

Maybe I'll look into the Grandagon N 200 but they look elusive

[Roger Hesketh]

If you do not need a fast lens a Cooke 8" Series VIIb may serve your purpose.

[doublezero]

hello 8x10 user ,

can you tell me more about your Provia 11x14 boxe ?
can i buy it ?
best regards

[angusparker]

Try the Computar 210mm f9 - 456mm image circle. Very small lens. Hard to find but comes up once in a while. Certainly a lot cheaper than the lenses suggested so far.

[Roger Hesketh]

An 8" Dagor stopped right down will cover 10x12. So will allow plenty of scope for movement on 8x10.

[karl french]

An 8 1/4" Dagor does cover 8x10, but it's pretty easy to hit the edges of the image circle with 8x10. Not really a lot of room for movements. I'm now using a 21cm Angulon, which seems to have a bit more coverage than the Dagor. I have an Apo Sironar W 210 on the way to try out in comparison.

The best bang for your buck in wide angles for 8x10 is really the old 165mm Super Angulon F8. But it's a beast. The 210mm range is tough, in that there really aren't many choices in lenses with very large image circles, moderate size and reasonable prices. The Computar is hard to find.

It's also interesting that no one has chimed in to discuss the image quality differences between the 210 SA and the 210SSXL. Just not that many users. There was a discussion here recently regarding the differences between the Nikkor SW 150 and the SSXL 150 that may have some bearing on this thread.

[Oren Grad]

The best bang for your buck in wide angles for 8x10 is really the old 165mm Super Angulon F8. But it's a beast.

And the 210 SA is monstrous - 3065 g, vs 1605 g for the 165 SA.

[ic-racer]

including the Fujinon 210 CM W didn't work out.



Jumping from one extreme (309mm) to the other (500mm) would certainly give more room for movements, but there are many, many other lenses in between that might work for you.

[Eric Leppanen]

In the past I have owned both the 210 SSXL and 200 Grandagon N, but at different times and could not do a direct head-to-head comparison. From my general experience I would say that the SSXL is slightly sharper than the Grandagon, but has noticeably more light falloff at the edges of the image circle. For architectural photography I would personally use the center filter with the SSXL, even with negative film. The SSXL's center filter is a large, expensive and rather vulnerable beast, and I was always concerned about dropping or damaging it. I ended up preferring the larger/heavier Grandagon because it was simpler to use and the falloff was more manageable (no center filter required, at least for my taste).

My recollection is that the 200 Grandagon and 210 Super Angulon are both Biogon-derived designs (tilted pupil, etc.), so one could surmise that they might perform similarly.

The 210 f/9 Computar I briefly owned was very sharp and provided a tremendous amount of performance in a small package. However, for architecture it would incur some trade-offs. When used at the extremes of its image circle, it incurred a substantial amount of light falloff, possibly more so than the 210 SSXL. If I had owned the Computar longer, I would have explored mating a third-party center filter with the lens. I also frequently found myself stopping down more with the Computar than with my 200 Grandagon in order to get everything in focus. I presume this may have been due to some field curvature (particularly when working close to the edge of the image circle), although I did not specifically test for this. Overall my brief impression was that the Computar could be adequate for architecture, but one of the larger lenses would be more flexible and have fewer trade-offs to manage (size notwithstanding, of course).

[Roger Hesketh]

An 8 1/4" Dagor does cover 8x10, but it's pretty easy to hit the edges of the image circle with 8x10. Not really a lot of room for movements. I'm now using a 21cm Angulon, which seems to have a bit more coverage than the Dagor.

I mentioned it as a low cost option. A shuttered one sold on this forum recently for $200. Goerz rated it to cover 10x12 at f45. My example of the lens will cover 8x10 comfortably. Having said that I rarely need to use lots of movement. At $500 plus I do not consider the Computar to be a low cost option. My Cooke which cost a third of that I consider to be a better option for me anyway. It is small and light but I am aware they are a little thin on the ground whereas Dagors are plentiful.

[8x10 user]

The Apo Sironar W and Super Symmar HM are great "modern" options for the 210mm range on 8x10.

[8x10 user]

The Fujinon CMV has an image circle of 309mm
The 210mm Super Symmar (https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/super-symmar-hm/super_symmar_hm.pdf) HM has an image circle of 359mm at F/22 (300mm wide open)
The 210mm Apo-Sironar-W (http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html#Apo-Sironar-W) has an image circle of 352mm at F/22

[johnmsanderson]

Thank you for that. The SS HM 210 sounds interesting.

[Professional]

I will buy the lens with largest IC even if it is not that sharp or if it is heavy, and the price is not an issue, at least i like to have a gear [lens or camera] that always has less limitations, so with larger IC i know i will have more room if i need that one day rather than i be controlled with the limit of less IC, for me affording is not that big problem if the prices are less than $2500-3000 for one lens [if i will not go with used option].