Using bleach on B&W film to retouch

[alavergh]

I'm looking for direction to articles about retouching B&W film by using bleach.

I have a magazine from 2006. "B&W Master Printing Class by Master Photographer/Darkroom Printer Bruce Barnbaum" (from the publisher of Photo Techniques).

In this magazine, he has a lesson on "Correcting a Defective Negative via Traditional Methods." He has a negative of some sand dunes where a light leak from his film holder, or something, has left a kind of streak on park of his negative. He talks about using, "a glass of rather dilute potassium ferricyanide," which is what he also uses on prints.

I have no experience with bleaching and only discovered that this bleaching of negatives and prints exists the other month. Can I use normal household bleach? I don't know how to get these raw chemicals and I'd rather not have to mix anything too complicated. Everything search online shows me people bleaching instant film.

I'm asking because I have some 4x5 TXP that I've got a few leaks on. It was from a somewhat sketchy holder and some user error. I'd like to see if this bleaching could at all help my negative(s) and I'd also like to learn more about bleaching prints, presumably to open up highlights?

Thanks so much.

[AJ Edmondson]

The bleach usually referred to in such cases is potassium ferricyanide... diluted with water or hypo and applied locally. The bleach works fairly slowly and usually is applied, rinsed, inspected and - if needed - reapplied. Note that it works pretty quickly in "thin" areas and requires diligence to avoid ruining the negative.

Joel

[alavergh]

So seeing as how I can't use normal bleach it seems, how does a normal person get a hold of some potassium ferricyanide? I see people mentioning to dilute it, but nobody says how much dilution. I've also found some stuff on photo.net saying that the print needs to be wet with fix. I suppose I remember the article mentioning rinsing with water after painting on the bleach and letting it work in a little, then rinsing with fix...or dipping the film back in fix.

[Gem Singer]

B&H, in NY, handles potassium ferricyanide., as does Photographers Formulary, in Montana, as well as other vendors.

Used to be called Farmers Reducer.

[alavergh]

So it's a normal photo related thing that's still carried? I hadn't even thought of that.

Don't give me sh*t about searching google, don't get me started about people here...

[Gem Singer]

Wasn't giving you sh*t.

Merely attempting to be helpful.

If you don't like the people here, you can always post your questions on APUG.

[alavergh]

Can anybody suggest an article on this stuff? My Google search hasn't given any useable suggestions for bleaching negatives.

[ROL]

So it's a normal photo related thing that's still carried? I hadn't even thought of that.

Don't give me sh*t about searching google, don't get me started about people here...

Andrew, here's (http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395008209&sr=1-1&keywords=dale+carnegie) some specific direction I hope you will find helpful, as I cannot imagine why you presently have any need for people here at all.

[alavergh]

...yep...love you guys...

[bigdog]

Can anybody suggest an article on this stuff? My Google search hasn't given any useable suggestions for bleaching negatives.

My Google search did: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/LatentImageBleach/latentimagebleach.html

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew, here's some specific direction I hope you will find helpful, as I cannot imagine why you presently have any need for people here at all.

;)

[alavergh]

Awesome, thanks! As I've searched myself, I've learned more terms that made it easier to search. I would just start with, "bleaching black and white negatives" then I'd add retouching, and the chemical used and stuff, but I hadn't had very good luck.

[matthew klos]

Ansel Adams " The Print" talks about bleaching. Steve Anchells "Darkroom cookbook" talks about it.

[alavergh]

I've heard a lot about this darkroom cookbook. Maybe I should check it out.

[Kirk Gittings]

Boy retouching a negative with bleach? I would practice for a couple of years before trying it on a good negative. Actually I would never get good at it I'm fairly sure. I would get a first rate drum scan of the neg, retouch it in PS and have it printed out as a neg again on a film recorder or have silver prints made directly from the file based on my inkjet master print.

[alavergh]

I did make two negatives of this specific shot, both are probably useable if I crop out the leaks. It's an abstract shot anyways, but I'd practice a bit on the worse of the two. Of course, as you suggest, it may fail miserably and at least that negative won't be a huge loss. Looking more into it, it's something I might enjoy using on prints still, if it really does work more quickly on highlights.

[Doremus Scudder]

I did make two negatives of this specific shot, both are probably useable if I crop out the leaks. It's an abstract shot anyways, but I'd practice a bit on the worse of the two. Of course, as you suggest, it may fail miserably and at least that negative won't be a huge loss. Looking more into it, it's something I might enjoy using on prints still, if it really does work more quickly on highlights.

I've been bleaching for years, and I would be hesitant to try it on a negative. But, some do, so go for it. Just be aware than you'll likely ruin the first several (if not many) before getting the hang of it. I've had good results retouching prints with light areas from light leaks, flare, etc.

Bleaching is more of an art than a science and there are several approaches as well as several formulas.

Potassium ferricyanide is the main ingredient of most bleaches. Farmers Reducer is mix of ferricyanide and sodium thiosulfate, which is plain hypo. This increases the activity and removes silver from the image as the bleaching takes place.

I use a mix of ferricyanide and potassium bromide, which rehalogenates the silver during bleaching and allows the bleached area to be (somewhat) redeveloped if you bleach too far.

Dilutions for bleaches are highly personal, but start weak and work strong.

and good luck!

Best,

Doremus

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I use bleach on film, in fact did it just this weekend. I simply mix the bleach so that it looks the color of light pee (piss), pretty technical! I soak the neg in water for a few minutes and then position it on my viewing board and use the back of my wet finger to lightly squeegee the film to remove some of the water. Then with a small 0 or 00 brush, I apply the bleach on the areas that I want to reduce (make thinner) while holding a small hose with a steady stream of water under the area that I bleached so the bleach will not touch the areas I do not want impacted.

I continue this process until I get close the result I want, better to be a little under bleached than over because once done you can never get it back! When completed, you must re-fix the film and wash it.

So, while this is not difficult to do, you will want to practice on some negs that are not good so you can learn. It is not something I would recommend to someone fairly new to darkroom printing.

[Kirk Gittings]

Eric you are a braver man than I....would you be interested in providing a picture here scanned from a print where you bleached the negative?

[Jim Noel]

You can use household bleach. Many years ago there was a product n the market in a smal bottle with a gloss rod in the cap which was nothing but household bleach. It was meant for prints, but I often used it for negatives.
If you decide to use any bleach PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE on undesirable negatives before attempting it on a good one. You need to learn how fast the bleach works. Some of the books of the 1930-40 era have sections on bleaching. I beueve it is true of " Looten's On Enlarging", but right nw I am headed out and don't have time to check.

[Jim Noel]

I've heard a lot about this darkroom cookbook. Maybe I should check it out.
Don't take everything you read in it as fact. There are errors in several of the recipes.

[Drew Wiley]

I have used Farmer's Reducer many times to reduce the overall density of unsharp sheet film masks, or to cut toe density/fog a bit differentially. Usually a minute or
so in a tray. So in principle it's perfectly straightforward. But I don't think I'd want to fool with a primary black and white neg intended for making a print per directly without first carefully testing a disposable neg of comparable range and overall density. Easy to lose gradation information you might not want to lose. The whole point of masks is that you don't have to sacrifice the primary shot to make discrete corrective adjustments, or in other words, to salvage a shot that be difficult to
print otherwise. Once you've messed with it with bleach, ain't no way to backtrack.

[Curt]

Boy retouching a negative with bleach? I would practice for a couple of years before trying it on a good negative. Actually I would never get good at it I'm fairly sure. I would get a first rate drum scan of the neg, retouch it in PS and have it printed out as a neg again on a film recorder or have silver prints made directly from the file based on my inkjet master print.

Yes but that's the easy way!

[Kirk Gittings]

The bleach method is an easy way to wreck a negative. My method works!

[Curt]

The bleach method is an easy way to wreck a negative. My method works!

This is true. In the old days would a professional retoucher make a duplicate and work on that instead of the original?

[Drew Wiley]

It's easier to work the other way, and selectively intensify with selenium; but even that requires care if its only localized. Fooling with the original neg should only
be a last resort. As I already indicated, I've good a LOT of experience with Farmer's and negs, so know the parameters. If a mask gets overbleached, it can simply
be remade. Once you're original is messed up, that's it.