Calumet Closing!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kirk Gittings]

I just heard a rumor that Calumet was closing its American stores. Have you heard anything? Their website is gone or down. Too bad if this is true. Not my favorite retailer the last decade. I used to do a ton of business with them and a bit the last decade.

I just looked at their Facebook page and it says:

After 75 years of business it is with a heavy heart that we announce our immediate closing in the United States (our European stores will continue). It has been a joy to share our passion for photography with you all of these years. We'll miss each other and we'll miss all of our customers. Thank you for everything.

[David Karp]

Wow. I used to go to the LA Calumet store frequently. Not so much in the past ten years too.

[Gem Singer]

Bought my first LF camera from Calumet in the late 1970's.

Sorry to see them go.

[Bob Salomon]

They filed for Chapter 7 on March 12th. Case # 14-08893 in the Northern District Court of IL (Federal Bankruptcy Court)

[Rollinhofuji]

Wow. This is a big thing.

[Paul Cunningham]

I was just in their little downtown Chicago store on Saturday, and I tried to order a camera bag yesterday online, but the website was offline. Now I know why!

[Kirk Gittings]

Once upon a time they were very good to me. I did product testing for them. They gave me materials grants for projects I was working on and I wrote for their newsletter and their "Journal of American Photography". I knew a number of people there personally like David Gremp. But all my contacts there are gone but perhaps one. I will try and contact him and see what he knows.

[frotog]

Sad news...

[David R Munson]

Should this prove to be true and include their pro shop on Goose Island in Chicago, I can't say I'm surprised. I never gave up wanting to be happy with them, but they just weren't in the game any more.

[Ari]

Too bad, but to be honest, they were a frustrating store with which to do business over the last ten years.
They seemed to be in perpetual disarray, and never caught on to the computer thingy as a business/inventory tool.

[Kirk Gittings]

yes that was my issue with them too over the last 10 years.

[BarryS]

What a disaster. They recently bought out the Penn Camera stores in the DC area, so that would leave this area with very little in the way of camera/photography stores. I was just talking with the Calumet people at SPE in Baltimore this past Saturday and they didn't even hint at this!

[Oren Grad]

They filed for Chapter 7 on March 12th. Case # 14-08893 in the Northern District Court of IL (Federal Bankruptcy Court)

And the filing itself has already been obtained and posted:

http://www.photobusinessforum.com/images/calumetphoto_case_14-08908.pdf

[Michael Kadillak]

Bummer. The listing of creditors is enormous and I hope that these enterprises saw it coming and mitigated the financial damage to the degree possible. Industry consolidation is a painful experience but if there is a buck to be made necessary adjustments to the business model will be made and life will go on. Large top heavy distributors are a thing of the past.

[John Olsen]

I guess I can delete my last back-order note now. Too bad. My first orders with Calumet were in 1971 and I came to value the knowledge and support of their staff. All of the on-line ordering at lower prices has killed that kind of service, but I'll continue to save my 1985 catalogue as a reminder of simpler times (Look, a Hasselblad 500C/M for $579!)

[Peter Lewin]

A pity also because they used to have a stock of miscellaneous Zone VI spare parts and odds and ends. I guess now Richard Ritter will be the last resource for those of us who still love Zone VI equipment, either in the field or in our dark rooms.

[neil poulsen]

That's too bad. They really did have a passion for what they did. I remember going to the opening of their LA store. Calumet's founder was there, and the passion was evident. But I saw a change years ago, when they were bought out by an investment firm.

I thought that their student-buy program was neat, in which they gave substantial discounts to help student photographers get started. Their purchase of Zone VI was also kind of neat, because they really tried to carry that flag for a while. For example, they recognized problems with the "5x7" enlarger and made improvements.

[tgtaylor]

I'm going to miss them. Was in the San Francisco just last weekend to see if they had any RA developer kits which I have been purchasing from them for several years now. If they didn't have one in the store but another store had it they would special order it sent to the store for pick-up and I wouldn't have to pay the shipping. I recently purchased 6 of their waterproof cases to store all my 4x5, 8x10 and enlarger lens in and also for the 810G. I'm going to miss those cases which were a real bargain compared to the Pelican version.

Thomas

[Taija71A]

... I knew a number of people there personally like David Gremp. But all my contacts there are gone but perhaps one. I will try and contact him and see what he knows...

____

Although, this was inevitable... It is still SAD, SAD News indeed! Number of Creditors: 585
--
I see that the 'List of Creditors' includes...

Gremp, David
2030 Marston Lane
Flossmoor, IL 60422

___

The last time that I called Calumet for something listed as 'In Stock' on their Web Site... They asked ME what the item was?

I tried to explain to 'them'... That it was for a 4x5 Large Format Camera...
They then asked ME... "What is 4x5 ???"

Enough said...
___

Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

[Drew Wiley]

I once did quite a bit of business with them. But then their focus changed. They bet all their money on one horse (digital studio), always seemed to have annoying
upcharges, had a hokey website hard to find stuff on, and if you called them, took some luck to find someone with a knowledgeable background who could tell you
what they actually carried. I didn't expect them to survive, and am surprised they held on this long.

[EdSawyer]

Wow, that is a bummer indeed. What will happen with whatever existing stock they have? Local going out of business sales, or divestiture on ebay, etc?

[Curt]

It sounds like they languished in apathy for some time leading up to the end. Surprised, not really, sickened, yes, anything that diminishes analog photography is discouraging.

[John Jarosz]

They were OK up to 2000 or so. After that is was a decline to the bottom. I stopped going.

Now the entire Chicago area has essentially one photo store (Central). Wow.

[resummerfield]

They were OK up to 2000 or so. After that is was a decline to the bottom.....

That's my experience, too. RIP Calumet.

[David Lobato]

I bought a lot of things from them in the 80's and the 90's. Got my 4x5 camera and lenses new from them, and lots of sheet film and b&w chemicals. Their old catalogs were a wealth of LF information, I still have a few. Sad to see another company bite the dust but people quit buying from them for good reasons.

[djdister]

What a disaster. They recently bought out the Penn Camera stores in the DC area, so that would leave this area with very little in the way of camera/photography stores. I was just talking with the Calumet people at SPE in Baltimore this past Saturday and they didn't even hint at this!

So I guess all we are left with in the DC area is actually in Baltimore - Service Photo. That's it, plus a couple of professional labs. Oh well...

[ghostcount]

From facebook/calumetphotographic (https://www.facebook.com/calumetphotographic)


Stay tuned, as we are exploring opportunities to reopen select locations to keep serving our customers. We will post any updates here if there are any.

[Merg Ross]

They were OK up to 2000 or so. After that is was a decline to the bottom.

Yes, that was also my experience. I bought my first of three view cameras from them in 1967. However, I have not thought of them during the past fifteen years as their service and stock declined. Before that they were my favorite supplier, always helpful, good quality, and well stocked. Sorry to hear the news.

[Tin Can]

It does seem obvious in the mirror. The new Goose Island store never was good at anything.

This leaves Central Camera, which is an actual old school camera store.

Chicago, let's all make an effort to visit Central Camera more often. It really is a cool old store and they offer voucher parking at the big parking garage, Northwest corner, first garage north of them, and that garage can handle a full size van.

As for Calumet, maybe the warehouse sale will hold some goodies, but Jose was the only one who could find them...

[Karl A]

They were OK up to 2000 or so. After that is was a decline to the bottom. I stopped going.

Now the entire Chicago area has essentially one photo store (Central). Wow.

Is Helix gone?

[Tin Can]

2 years gone


Is Helix gone?

[ROL]

I bought a bunch of stuff at the H'wood store for my DR in the early century. The employees laughed at my purchase of large trays.

[Trevor Whitaker]

They didn't even tell their employees. Apparently many showed up for work today to find they were closed.

[AJ Edmondson]

Sad indeed... like many others here I bought my first LF camera and lenses from them back in the 'sixties (while stationed overseas) and for many years they were my only source for all my photographic needs. As previously noted - "back in the day" they were stellar in their customer service and support and Jose was always an outstanding source for parts and sound advice!

Joel

[jcoldslabs]

I've been putting off ordering some parts for my C-1, and I guess now those 4x5 reducing back leaf springs will be tough to find. D'oh!

Jonathan

[Tin Can]

Common trick to stop all kinds of behavior.

Factories have been know to run a fire drill and lock the employees out once the building is empty.

Employment at will.


They didn't even tell their employees. Apparently many showed up for work today to find they were closed.

[Tin Can]

There are plenty of those backs floating around, with the death of Fujiroid, few will ever want them.


I've been putting off ordering some parts for my C-1, and I guess now those 4x5 reducing back leaf springs will be tough to find. D'oh!

Jonathan

[Bob Salomon]

So I guess all we are left with in the DC area is actually in Baltimore - Service Photo. That's it, plus a couple of professional labs. Oh well...

Ace Photo in Ashburn? Pro Photo in DC? Embassy Camera?

[Sal Santamaura]

They filed for Chapter 7 on March 12th. Case # 14-08893 in the Northern District Court of IL (Federal Bankruptcy Court)HP Marketing is on the list of creditors. I hope that today's typical practice of retailers not stocking big-ticket items (i.e. placing the stock keeping burden on distributors until an actual end-user order is received) means you won't be stiffed for too much.

[djdister]

Ace Photo in Ashburn? Pro Photo in DC? Embassy Camera?

I hadn't heard about those guys. Obviously smaller, and nothing catering to LF that's for sure. And I would hesitate to say Ashburn is in DC, but whatever...

[Leigh]

Ace Photo in Ashburn? Pro Photo in DC? Embassy Camera?
I've been to Ace twice... two times too many. I certainly won't make that mistake again.

Pro Photo is good, but small. They do (or at least did) repairs.

Never heard of Embassy Camera, in over 45 years of buying photo stuff in DC.

- Leigh

[dsphotog]

Sad to hear.
I'm restoring a Calumet stainless sink with nitrogen burst film tanks.
....Shoulda kept my C-1 cameras too.

[Tin Can]

The guy that made that sink is still producing in Michigan. http://www.rosyproducts.com/stainless_steel_sinks.htm

Plenty of C1's to go around, shooting mine today.


Sad to hear.
I'm restoring a Calumet stainless sink with nitrogen burst film tanks.
....Shoulda kept my C-1 cameras too.

[Bob Salomon]

I hadn't heard about those guys. Obviously smaller, and nothing catering to LF that's for sure. And I would hesitate to say Ashburn is in DC, but whatever...

Ace has large format and since they are near Dulles they are certainly in the DC area.

Embassy is on CT. Ave and has been for decades. They have a second store in VA called Photo Craft.

[dave_whatever]

Am I to assume that the european/UK Calumet outfit is a separate company then? I wonder how they will fare in the future.

[ckagy]

There is also Dominion Camera in Falls Church, VA. They don't have much LF stuff in particular, but they do stock some chemicals.

[Oren Grad]

Embassy is on CT. Ave and has been for decades.

Yes, just a short walk from Dupont Circle as you head up Connecticut Ave toward the Hilton.

[Pfiltz]

I was just in the one in Chicago, 2 weeks ago. I was there on a Friday/Sat. can't remember which. There was like 20 folks in there shopping.

[Tin Can]

They also did quite a bit of rental, the shop almost next door to me has better equipment for rent.

http://www.doddpro.com/

Especially now...




I was just in the one in Chicago, 2 weeks ago. I was there on a Friday/Sat. can't remember which. There was like 20 folks in there shopping.

[wager123]

I was in the Ft Lauderdale store yesterday and nothing was said. didn't have much there for sale

[Chuck Pere]

I bought a lot of equipment and supplies when their store and warehouse was in Bensenville, Il near O'hare. I worked nearby. Once they moved into town the drive and gas prices made visiting a PITA. I still made at least one visit every 6 months. Those 5 l fixer bottles are hard to ship. Just thinking about going down to buy one. And it's nice to have a place to go for sheet film etc on short notice when you can't mail order. I do have a nice collection of old catalogs.

[Ron McElroy]

I'm sorry to hear of their closing. I bought lots of film and paper along with some darkroom gear from them in the 80s through the 90s. After that time I started using other sources because they were more reliable.

[ROL]

I bought a bunch of stuff at the H'wood store for my DR in the early century. The employees laughed at my purchase of large trays.

:o, Okay, it was kinda funny, "Are you going to swim in those?"

[John Olsen]

.... but Jose was the only one who could find them...

Yikes, Jose is a good guy. I'm sorry to hear he'll be out of work. I hadn't thought about the employee side of this.

[Greg Blank]

Most folks in the USA have heard of Calumet, I will miss thier presence in the photoworld- only because less competion out there equals less choice. But there are still other stores I have liked better, that still remain. Calumet I bought my first 4x5 Enlarger, my best 4x5 lens and my first Jobo and drums. Calumet was more expensive but in the early days they had knowledgable sales people who actually were friendly on the phone. I shopped elsewhere after the bad experience of buying a medium format scanner that was DOA, Calumet nor the maker really did me good service. So I stopped using and buying from both. It does not surprise me as I seem to recall they have had managment and financial issues for years,....not a few months. My thoughts and well wishes go out to the employees that now do not have jobs + thier families .

[Alan Curtis]

So, I assume that the life time warranty on all the Zone VI stuff I have is now officially expired. Sorry to see them go, did quite a bit of business with them. Also sorry that Jose may now be unemployed.

[csxcnj]

Ace Photo in Ashburn? Pro Photo in DC? Embassy Camera?

Ace is a great store. Moe, Frank etc. knowledgable and helpful...when I feel like making a 62 mile round trip!

Dominion Camera in Falls Church, haven't set foot in there after the owner screwed one of my best friends who worked there.

I have a few friends at Calumet that I've known since the Penn Camera days. Both Penn and Calumet were just plain mis managed and run in to the ground by idiot upper management. They knew things weren't good but none of them expected this.

Oh well, guess I'm full bore B&H now.

[David Karp]

Jose was always helpful and really knows his stuff. Sorry for him and the other good employees.

[cdavis324]

It sucks for their employees, but in reality the only thing Calumet was good for was that Dodd Chicago would match their rental prices... which with all the specials was cheap.

It's a good example of upper management incompetence. You can either charge higher prices because you answer the phone on the first ring(a la Fotocare), or compete on price with B+H.

I hope the employees aren't owed back pay or anything...

[evan clarke]

I've been buying at Goose Island since they were there. I live in the Milwaukee area and used to go ther every couple of weeks. 2 years ago, I went down there twice to get some 120 TMY.. No dice both times. Since then I've only been there about 4 times and there was not a single product I was interestd in.
There's another nice little camera store in Chicagoland..PJ's in Glen Ellyn. They Cater to film users who attend the College of DuPage's photography program.

[koh303]

The real loss here is the "service" department in Chicago, which was (and most likely is, until it goes into the dumpster) a single and huge source of Cambo/Calumet LF camera parts. I doubr any of us will ever see any of those again (unless someone can point me in the direction of a corporate phone that someone will answer so i can salvage whats left of it...)

[Bob Salomon]

The real loss here is the "service" department in Chicago, which was (and most likely is, until it goes into the dumpster) a single and huge source of Cambo/Calumet LF camera parts. I doubr any of us will ever see any of those again (unless someone can point me in the direction of a corporate phone that someone will answer so i can salvage whats left of it...)

This is a Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing. That means everything will be sold to pay the secured creditors, their filing says nothing will be left for unsecured creditors. A corporate phone would not help you. The Trustee is the one who would be in charge of selling everything off. Maybe through a liquidator, maybe through an auction. So look up the filing and contact the Trustee.

[dtheld]

Over the last few weeks, I've been looking at Calumet's website. Like others, I've always found the navigation to be difficult. However, I did notice that many new equipment listings were "not in stock, taking orders". While I was practicing law, this was a sure sign of trouble in a retail organization. As sales decline, vendors refuse to deliver product to the retailer unless, or until, the retailer pays up-front for the product.

Although, there might be a "white knight" waiting in the wings to purchase the name, inventory, good will, etc., it is highly unlikely. The Chapter 7 filing will most likely mean a complete liquidation of all corporate assets.

[Will Frostmill]

Ace Photo in Ashburn? Pro Photo in DC? Embassy Camera?

In terms of labs, Baltimore still has Techlab, which develops up to 4x5 in c6, e5, etc. They even ask you if you want your negs cut with rollfilm. I just picked up some rollfilm negs there today. They also stock some rollfilm and just maybe some 4x5. (I'd have to check.) Most of their business is prints, picure frames, and the film stuff is mostly for the students at MICA.

[Bob Salomon]

....
Although, there might be a "white knight" waiting in the wings to purchase the name, inventory, good will, etc., it is highly unlikely. The Chapter 7 filing will most likely mean a complete liquidation of all corporate assets.

Although someone could buy the name after the liquidation and start all over again.

[Oren Grad]

Although someone could buy the name after the liquidation and start all over again.

If the name is owned by a corporate entity that's not included in the filing, it won't be up for sale.

I do not understand Calumet's corporate structure, but they are said to be planning a return to the US market:

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/540478/calumet-collapse-bosses-plan-return-to-us-market-update

How much value the brand would have in the US after the company's performance in recent years and its dealings with customers, employees and creditors leading up to the bankruptcy, remains to be seen.

[StoneNYC]

Although someone could buy the name after the liquidation and start all over again.

Didn't calmut have a few patent designs of their own that were useful for large format? Or was I thinking of someone else? Could those patents be bought and applied? Like toyo or someone? And maybe the liquidation means some cheap prices on good items?

[Bob Salomon]

Didn't calmut have a few patent designs of their own that were useful for large format? Or was I thinking of someone else? Could those patents be bought and applied? Like toyo or someone? And maybe the liquidation means some cheap prices on good items?

If they have patents then they would be assets of the company and would go into the liquidation.

[StoneNYC]

If they have patents then they would be assets of the company and would go into the liquidation.

Right but what I mean is an opportunity for someone to buy and produce them.

[Bob Salomon]

If the name is owned by a corporate entity that's not included in the filing, it won't be up for sale.

I do not understand Calumet's corporate structure, but they are said to be planning a return to the US market:

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/540478/calumet-collapse-bosses-plan-return-to-us-market-update

How much value the brand would have in the US after the company's performance in recent years and its dealings with customers, employees and creditors leading up to the bankruptcy, remains to be seen.

http://www.photobusinessforum.com/images/calumetphoto_case_14-08908.pdf

This link will take you to the list of Calumet Corporate entities included in the filing.

[Bob Salomon]

Right but what I mean is an opportunity for someone to buy and produce them.

Probably not if it is an active patent. Then whoever ends up with the patent would have to decide what to do with it.

[Oren Grad]

http://www.photobusinessforum.com/images/calumetphoto_case_14-08908.pdf

This link will take you to the list of Calumet Corporate entities included in the filing.

Yes, I've seen that. What I don't know is the rest of the picture - who is the parent entity globally, how do/did the American and European pieces fit into the global organization (who are the beneficial owners, who controls what), and who owns what pieces of the brand and the intellectual property in which jurisdictions.

[Bob Salomon]

Yes, I've seen that. What I don't know is the rest of the picture - who is the parent entity globally, how do/did the American and European pieces fit into the global organization (who are the beneficial owners, who controls what), and who owns what pieces of the brand and the intellectual property in which jurisdictions.

We only are a supplier (creditor) to the stores and in the past were a customer for the Fidelity division when Linhof still sold them (decades ago). So we are only in contact with the store division in the USA. The entire company was bought a couple of years ago by someone in the UK.

[Oren Grad]

We only are a supplier (creditor) to the stores and in the past were a customer for the Fidelity division when Linhof still sold them (decades ago). So we are only in contact with the store division in the USA.

Understood.


The entire company was bought a couple of years ago by someone in the UK.

Aye, that's where the murk begins.

[koh303]

The real loss here is the "service" department in Chicago, which was (and most likely is, until it goes into the dumpster) a single and huge source of Cambo/Calumet LF camera parts. I doubr any of us will ever see any of those again (unless someone can point me in the direction of a corporate phone that someone will answer so i can salvage whats left of it...)

[Robert Jonathan]

Since Calumet owned Penn Camera, people like me in the Virginia/DC/Maryland area have lost another camera store.

But let's face it guys, this area doesn't have any camera stores that are worth visiting anyway. Penn Camera was pathetic, Ritz Camera is pathetic (are they still around?), and all those other ones listed are also not worth the trip. I've been to Ace Photo once, and it was surprisingly decent for a store in Virginia that I've never seen/heard of before, but I couldn't find a reason to buy from them.

For LF, I've been buying used anyway. I hope places like KEH will be around forever.

The good news is that we do have some good labs that will process up to 8x10, like DodgeChrome ( http://www.dodgechrome.com ).

[Bob Salomon]

.....

but I couldn't find a reason to buy from them.

One reason could be that they have what you were looking for.

[hoffner]

Another reason could be that you didn't want to buy it from a different store.

[Kirk Gittings]

Frankly though they were my "go to" store into say the year 2000 or so, in the last while because of their dinosaur website or not stocking what I need etc. they became the last place I shopped in recent years. So this does not effect me personally at all. The businesses I frequent now seem to be going strong, Freestyle I always give the first shot (I believe they have a long term commitment to the kind of photography I do) and then if that fails B&H.

But its "the sign if the times" this represents that I find dismaying. Even with bad management I think they would have survived in a better economy and industry perhaps. A friend of mine who finally just left Calumet last summer summarized it thus-it was simply "terrible management". He didn't blame the economy or the industry.

I think a comparison is in order. As Calumet was tanking Freestyle was growing and prospering......what might we surmise from that obvious fact in this situation? Now I have a dog in this hunt-the CEO of Freestyle is an old college fraternity brother of mine, and I am on their advisory board, but I think their success is pretty clear beyond my affection for the guy and his organization. He likewise had absolutely NO background in photography when he was recruited to take over the company but did have some real success actually salvaging distressed companies before Freestyle.

[Robert Jonathan]

One reason could be that they have what you were looking for.

Wrong. If I get it from B&H, the shipping is usually less than the sales tax I would have to pay, or shipping is free, with zero sales tax.

[Noah B]

It was nice to have a dedicated photo store in Cambridge just a few minutes away from my home just in case I needed to get anything. I picked up brand new 4x5 film holders from them last year for a huge discount.

[paulr]

Bummer about Calumet. I had no idea.

But Helix? Their site is up today. I bought my dslr from them late 2012.

[Oren Grad]

But Helix? Their site is up today. I bought my dslr from them late 2012.

Their retail store in Chicago closed quite a while back.

[Sal Santamaura]

...For LF, I've been buying used anyway...A sure-fire way to send equipment manufacturers down the bankruptcy (or LF product abandonment) road too.

[csxcnj]

Wrong. If I get it from B&H, the shipping is usually less than the sales tax I would have to pay, or shipping is free, with zero sales tax.

So you don't really give a crap if there's a local camera store. Sounds like you just use one to check out gear then go buy online.

[StoneNYC]

So you don't really give a crap if there's a local camera store. Sounds like you just use one to check out gear then go buy online.

The sad part this is true of many people.

The big problem is just the price difference, if there were only a small price difference I'm sure people would support local, and add the fact photographers earn less per job than they used to (by a significant margin) and you get photographers who literally can't afford to spend the extra money with local, add to that the fact that local doesn't often carry everything you need, and it becomes more difficult to budget a bunch of items you want into one purchase and keep track of expenses (especially if you're disorganized like me).

So it all stacks up.

I but from 3 places, one local "Milford photo" which have an online store that's atrocious and all digital, and 2 online freestyle and B&H.

Whenever I brows the local, I try and pick up a few rolls of films I like... Sadly they aren't re-stocking, and are trying to get out of from altogether they've told me.

The sad truth is that if 3ish years ago they had never had PanF+ in stock, I would never have gotten the old kodak 1A folder Autographic I found at a tag sale, to work.

I never would have fallen in love with film, and I never would have been down this rabbit hole (and I would probably be a much crappier photographer).

So now I think about what if someone just like me comes in looking for some 120 film and just can't get it...??

The fact is they just recently haven't been stocking any of the films that I use, on top of that, they change almost DOUBLE what B&H does!

I just can't justify that cost and I would bet that many other people cannot either.

If local stores could find a way to get closer to the big stores in terms of prices for stuff that they normally jack up, I think that it would bring a lot more local purchases, but they can't see it and like other companies are placing themselves out of the market, suddenly finding no sales, questioning why that is and not understanding that they're doing it to themselves because they are getting a reputation for having prices higher then the other guy who is more organized and easier to deal with and has stuff in stock...

I don't exactly understand what functions the distributors have and how much they upsell the local stores, but when I went in and asked if they would be willing to sell me some HP5+ in 35mm at the price that B&H sells it, their reply was that they couldn't even do that if they tried, that THEIR cost was higher than what B&H was selling it for... I kind of think he was just giving me that line, because he didn't want to drop the price, but at the same time it's possible that because B&H Buys such large quantities, they are able to get a significant discount over the other stores, who knows, all I know is that it just doesn't make sense for most photographers to purchase locally, the prices are just too extremely high compared to the big online stores, and you really can't blame people for that. It sucks, but they aren't being bad people, just being a normal logical consumer...

[RichardRitter]

Having worked for Calumet for a short period of time I am not surprised this has happened.

[IanG]

What Calumet have actually said “Right now, we are developing plans for a return to the US market with retail locations and an online presence.”

The European side is fine, apparently they lost a financial supporter in the US which meant their re-structuring failed.

Ian

[koh303]

The big problem is just the price difference, if there were only a small price difference I'm sure people would support local, and add the fact photographers earn less per job than they used to (by a significant margin) and you get photographers who literally can't afford to spend the extra money with local, add to that the fact that local doesn't often carry everything you need, and it becomes more difficult to budget a bunch of items you want into one purchase and keep track of expenses (especially if you're disorganized like me).

I don't exactly understand what functions the distributors have and how much they upsell the local stores, but when I went in and asked if they would be willing to sell me some HP5+ in 35mm at the price that B&H sells it, their reply was that they couldn't even do that if they tried, that THEIR cost was higher than what B&H was selling it for... I kind of think he was just giving me that line, because he didn't want to drop the price, but at the same time it's possible that because B&H Buys such large quantities, they are able to get a significant discount over the other stores, who knows, all I know is that it just doesn't make sense for most photographers to purchase locally, the prices are just too extremely high compared to the big online stores, and you really can't blame people for that. It sucks, but they aren't being bad people, just being a normal logical consumer...

The problem is that folks do not think there is anything important about having a local community. And in the age of instant satisfaction smartphone internet it really is a hard thing to see how social capital is important to ones life. But this is almost socialist talk in american.

You might not believe this - but its true.
You can call Wynit (the ilford distributor) and ask for a dealer price list, and you will see that the best dealer prices are ALL and ALWAYS higher then BH actual retail prices, and that does not include shipping to the dealer, or the free shipping BH offers on many items.

BH and Freestyle are just doing what is expected from them in an unregulated, free market capitalist society, and that is to create an envrionment in which they corner a market and do not allow anyone else to compete. All through the use of antics that are stipulated by the economics of the free market, which in turn as we can see here means less choice, and no competition. They did this by slowly forming relationships that exclude other retailers form participating, if through "exclusive" deals for distribution or pricing, and by offering certain products at an operating loss, while selling others for 2-3% margin. When you sell a billion $ a year you can do that, but when you are a local store, your overhead is usually higher then that.

It is important for us as humans, and community members that social capital is increased and not decreased. This often means investing some actual monetary value in maintaining it. But in a place where things like human rights and health care are a privilege there is no room for local business, competition or a community.

[StoneNYC]

So, if you have rental gear out from Calumet and they are now closed... do you keep the stuff?

Wouldn't like sending items back to a place that is closed not knowing it can be signed for and checked in properly.

Yea keep it! I would! :)

If no one calls... It's yours!

If they call in 6 months after doing their books and ask for it back, either give it, or say you left it in front of the door when you went to return it... Hehe... :)

[jcoldslabs]

The problem is that folks do not think there is anything important about having a local community. And in the age of instant satisfaction smartphone internet it really is a hard thing to see how social capital is important to ones life. But this is almost socialist talk in american.

You might not believe this - but its true.
You can call Wynit (the ilford distributor) and ask for a dealer price list, and you will see that the best dealer prices are ALL and ALWAYS higher then BH actual retail prices, and that does not include shipping to the dealer, or the free shipping BH offers on many items.

BH and Freestyle are just doing what is expected from them in an unregulated, free market capitalist society, and that is to create an envrionment in which they corner a market and do not allow anyone else to compete. All through the use of antics that are stipulated by the economics of the free market, which in turn as we can see here means less choice, and no competition. They did this by slowly forming relationships that exclude other retailers form participating, if through "exclusive" deals for distribution or pricing, and by offering certain products at an operating loss, while selling others for 2-3% margin. When you sell a billion $ a year you can do that, but when you are a local store, your overhead is usually higher then that.

It is important for us as humans, and community members that social capital is increased and not decreased. This often means investing some actual monetary value in maintaining it. But in a place where things like human rights and health care are a privilege there is no room for local business, competition or a community.

Isn't this essentially the Wal-Mart phenomenon? Many of the same people who lament the loss of the American manufacturing base are the ones who buy cheap Chinese-made goods at big box stores rather than hunt down the domestic equivalents.

I will admit, the last time I needed plain white t-shirts I bought a three-pack of them at Costco (made in Bangladesh) for $15.00 rather than buying ONE American Apparel t-shirt for $25.

We vote with our dollars, and the dollars have spoken.

Jonathan

[lenser]

Re: holding on to rental equipment. Don't they already have your credit card number and isn't there a clause in the contract regarding charging the full value of the equipment if not returned in a timely fashion? I don't know how that would be effected by their filing, but it seems like at least some provable attempt at communication would be a safety measure plus maybe seeing about some kind of a hold on your credit card regarding any charges from them until it gets straightened out. You can bet their lawyers and those of the trustees will not be on your side.

[analoguey]

.
You can call Wynit (the ilford distributor) and ask for a dealer price list, and you will see that the best dealer prices are ALL and ALWAYS higher then BH actual retail prices, and that does not include shipping to the dealer, or the free shipping BH offers on many items.

BH and Freestyle are just doing what is expected from them in an unregulated, free market capitalist society, and that is to create an envrionment in which they corner a market and do not allow anyone else to compete. All through the use of antics that are stipulated by the economics of the free market, which in turn as we can see here means less choice, and no competition. They did this by slowly forming relationships that exclude other retailers form participating, if through "exclusive" deals for distribution or pricing, and by offering certain products at an operating loss, while selling others for 2-3% margin. When you sell a billion $ a year you can do that, but when you are a local store, your overhead is usually higher then that.




Isn't this essentially the Wal Mart phenomenon? Many of the same people who lament the loss of the American manufacturing base are the ones who buy cheap Chinese-made goods at big box stores rather than hunt down the domestic equivalents.

/Snip

We vote with our dollars, and the dollars have spoken.

Jonathan

Used to work with a large retailer. Thats pretty much how big retailers work - and, get bigger - pricing cheaper than smaller retailers then jacking up prices after gaining hegemony.
Also, big retailers have much much more favorable terms with their suppliers. (and not so favorable ones to the suppliers) stuff like paying them between 90 and 180 days of billing, for example - if everything went well.

The economic 'culture' of bigg retail cos is anyways based on cornering market and maximising revenue - I find it very hard to believe though that margins at B&H would be 2-3% only - that would be really brutal pricing and unsustainable. PAT 2-3% might just work well though. (given B&Hs logistics set-up, I expect it to be better)

Btw Are B&H just retailers or distributors?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Another issue may be that a few years ago, Calumet was the go-to place for high-end digital, when the vendors were avoiding B&H, largely it seemed, because Calumet and smaller specialized shops could provide a higher level of customer support for the products. Now that photographers who need those digital backs have been using them for a few years, and the products have become more reliable and easier to use, B&H is selling a whole range of them, cutting into Calumet's former market niche.

[Michael Alpert]

Yea keep it! I would! :)

If no one calls... It's yours!

If they call in 6 months after doing their books and ask for it back, either give it, or say you left it in front of the door when you went to return it... Hehe... :)

Stone,

There is no excuse for dishonesty.

[koh303]

Used to work with a large retailer. Thats pretty much how big retailers work - and, get bigger - pricing cheaper than smaller retailers then jacking up prices after gaining hegemony.
Also, big retailers have much much more favorable terms with their suppliers. (and not so favorable ones to the suppliers) stuff like paying them between 90 and 180 days of billing, for example - if everything went well.

The economic 'culture' of bigg retail cos is anyways based on cornering market and maximising revenue - I find it very hard to believe though that margins at B&H would be 2-3% only - that would be really brutal pricing and unsustainable. PAT 2-3% might just work well though. (given B&Hs logistics set-up, I expect it to be better)

Btw Are B&H just retailers or distributors?

No doubt BH/freestyle get a better rate which enables them to sell at a lower then dealer cost and still make more then 2-3% on smaller items like film or accessories, but on larger items like cameras, when they are not the direct importers they do work on a tiny margin, usually close to 3%. They augment that with stuff like memory cards and batteries where they make close to 90% of retail. Add to this that major companies get better credit processing fees, better bank credit and better payment options (as you noted 90-180 days, and all shipping pre paid by the supplier).
When they are the importers they make 15-20%, which is what you would need to make to be profitable in photo retail.
On top of that, when they have an RMA, just like walmart/costco large outlets just send the product back to the origin company and simply deduct the cost off the invoice as they have 6 months to pay out.

Both BH and freestyle are importers, but i would not call them distributors, as they are the only outlet to sell the goods they import (under various exclusivity deals, preventing any other player from importing or selling said product).

David:

I used to work in a camera store for years, where the boss thought that having real customers service from poeple who knew what they were selling was reason enough to have a 10-15% higher then internet price. He used to yell at folks for letting the phone ring more then once... At the end of the day in order to sell anything, that store had to sell at internet prices, and diversify the product offering to maintain its sustainability. Customer service never came above of price regardless of how important it might have been to customers. As Jonathan above noted - money talks. and the last word here has long been spoken. And to top it all off BH has some of the best customer service on the planet.

[StoneNYC]

Stone,

There is no excuse for dishonesty.

I did say EITHER, and I was obviously kidding. I'm fairly honest, more than most when it comes to stuff like that. Sorry to taint my character if it did.

[StoneNYC]

Does American Apparel even sell clothing made in America??

[koh303]

Does American Apparel even sell clothing made in America??

ALL american apparel stuff is made in CA. But all that stuff is made by slaves who get paid less the mexican minimum wages, if there is such a thing. So in that sense, american made does really mean anything for the american worker (see NAFTA)...

[David A. Goldfarb]

B&H has great customer service for certain kinds of things. Henry Posner is wonderful at responding to internet sales issues. The guys in the lighting and pro camera departments really know their stuff and can offer excellent advice up to the point of sale. But I don't get the sense that they can send someone out to make a studio visit for what could turn into a full day of training and troubleshooting, which might have been more necessary five years ago (when Calumet was selling high-end digital backs and B&H wasn't) than it is today.

[koh303]

Even 5 years ago, BH was most likely selling more pro gear then all calumet locations combined. They have set tone for the entire market (in price and service) for at least the past 10 years if not longer.
Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with BH as it stands, because they do offer a great service at a ridiculous low price. The problem is that their existence, directly negates the existence of any other photo retailers save maybe one or two other companies with the same level of absolute market control.

[Roger Cole]

Too bad, but to be honest, they were a frustrating store with which to do business over the last ten years.
They seemed to be in perpetual disarray, and never caught on to the computer thingy as a business/inventory tool.

That was more or less my experience too. They were great (if really excessive on shipping, particularly liquids) in the 90s because they carried such a wide range but they haven't really been important on my radar for some time.


The last time that I called Calumet for something listed as 'In Stock' on their Web Site... They asked ME what the item was?

I tried to explain to 'them'... That it was for a 4x5 Large Format Camera...
They then asked ME... "What is 4x5 ???"

Enough said...
___

Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

That's sad - and really unforgivable even nowadays for a store catering to pros.

I called them once since my return to photography to oder the plastic GG overlay for my Calumet 6x7 RF back. They transferred me to a guy in the warehouse who knew exactly what I wanted and got me one. Might have been Jose mentioned below, but I'm not sure.

More recently I ordered some 3x3" acetate filters (yikes! I will miss those! Glad I have the ones I need, I think) and some cardboard mounts for them to drop into my 3x3 filter holder. I got the ordered filers, no cardboard mounts, and a compendium lens shade listed at something like $120! I'd paid only for the filters and frames. I called and they were very grateful and (of course) sent me via email a return label to return the lens shade, but said the cardboard mounts were out of stock. No worries, I can make them quickly and easily with a pair of scissors, an exacto knife and some card stock, it would have just been easier to use those. The did promptly credit me for those.

Still, I had no legal obligation to return that lens shade. If someone sends you something you did not order, you can legally keep it, and they had no idea the error had occurred anyway. That would have been a fairly costly mistake sending it to some people and makes me wonder how often things like that happened. Not enough to impact their bottom line and be a big contributor to this I'm sure, but it was certainly sloppy.


I once did quite a bit of business with them. But then their focus changed. They bet all their money on one horse (digital studio), always seemed to have annoying
upcharges, had a hokey website hard to find stuff on, and if you called them, took some luck to find someone with a knowledgeable background who could tell you
what they actually carried. I didn't expect them to survive, and am surprised they held on this long.

The big issue, besides a crappy web site, stuff not in stock now or probably ever, and no longer carrying all the cool film stuff they used to carry (uh, that's a long list of "besides") was the shipping charges. They were always just way over the top, more so back when they carried darkroom stuff because they insisted on shipping any liquid separately, one per box, and charging accordingly. It was really prohibitive.

Meanwhile Freestyle ships anything, to the 48 CONUS at least, well packed, never got anything damaged, including ORM-D, and the only reason the rates are a bit much seems to me to be the fact I'm shipping from California to Atlanta. I can live with their rates. First rate operation.


Frankly though they were my "go to" store into say the year 2000 or so, in the last while because of their dinosaur website or not stocking what I need etc. they became the last place I shopped in recent years. So this does not effect me personally at all. The businesses I frequent now seem to be going strong, Freestyle I always give the first shot (I believe they have a long term commitment to the kind of photography I do) and then if that fails B&H.

But its "the sign if the times" this represents that I find dismaying. Even with bad management I think they would have survived in a better economy and industry perhaps. A friend of mine who finally just left Calumet last summer summarized it thus-it was simply "terrible management". He didn't blame the economy or the industry.

I think a comparison is in order. As Calumet was tanking Freestyle was growing and prospering......what might we surmise from that obvious fact in this situation? Now I have a dog in this hunt-the CEO of Freestyle is an old college fraternity brother of mine, and I am on their advisory board, but I think their success is pretty clear beyond my affection for the guy and his organization. He likewise had absolutely NO background in photography when he was recruited to take over the company but did have some real success actually salvaging distressed companies before Freestyle.

I love Freestyle and do try to support them, but I admit on most film (aside, obviously, from their re-branded Foma) and many paper orders that their prices send me to B&H. I'll pay a little more but if all I want is film, or a pack of paper, the combination of higher price and longer distance make the difference just hard to justify. But I do still order many things from Freestyle and often group film and paper in with those orders.

Support those who support you - Calumet quit being that place a decade to a decade and a half ago. Freestyle is that place now and I too try to support them.

B&H is good but is a huge mega-store selling many different lines. I do buy from them, but always at least check Freestyle.

[StoneNYC]

ALL american apparel stuff is made in CA. But all that stuff is made by slaves who get paid less the mexican minimum wages, if there is such a thing. So in that sense, american made does really mean anything for the american worker (see NAFTA)...

And you please elaborate on that, if the stuff is made in California, how can it be made by workers who are making Mexican wages? That doesn't make any sense either they are working for minimum wage, were they are not being paid in America, or the business is running an illegal operation which I doubt..

[koh303]

And you please elaborate on that, if the stuff is made in California, how can it be made by workers who are making Mexican wages? That doesn't make any sense either they are working for minimum wage, were they are not being paid in America, or the business is running an illegal operation which I doubt..
NAFTA means that American companies, can own and operate or use the services of factories inside the US (but close enough to Mexico), employ Mexian day laborers who cross into the US daily for work, inside what is called a "trade free zone" (no taxes applied to business done there). As such they are also not obligated to US labor laws (whatever those are...) as the employees are Mexican, and remain under Mexican law even while they work in the US.
As the factories are in the US, there is no import duty on what they make, but also no US regulation on their working conditions (as if the US regulates working conditions for salves inside the US elsewhere).
You can read a bit about the great benefits of this type of operations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora

As it is, many of those "made in America" cars are made in such factories, with material which is imported into Mexico by GM, the waste left in Mexico (for free) and final assembly of many components in Canada only to be sold in the US. 85% of those cars actually made in the US, are sold for Export...

At any rate as Mcdonalds recently explained to the American public, if you are so lucky to have minimum wage job in the US, it means you only need to have at least one other full time minimum wage job in order to have enough money for food and shelter (but nothing else).

[Ken Lee]

Thread off topic, politics, etc. Closed.