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Bernice Loui
11-Mar-2014, 22:34
Some images of a Goerz 70 inch APO Artar send to me from a friend some time ago..

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ESlo0eH8AHM/Ux87HQCjSPI/AAAAAAAAAUY/OhCqXlvKESg/s512/IMG_5171.jpg


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wydednsgGVY/Ux865Z-ieTI/AAAAAAAAAUI/DSdve0aUwt8/s512/IMG_5166.jpg


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wOc3mwx_I-Q/Ux86yfVRtTI/AAAAAAAAAUA/j9iPnr5MmTg/s512/IMG_5167.jpg


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aVpvmp58Dx0/Ux86wdAS4PI/AAAAAAAAAT4/nY8in7YyIxQ/s512/IMG_5164.jpg



Largest Goerz Red Dot Artar that passed my way was a 47 inch. This lens came out of a HUGE process camera in Silly Valley that did work for Lockheed and many others. The copy board was maybe 15 ft x 15 ft+, length of this process camera ran the length of the building about 50 ft and the vacuum film holder about 10 ft x 10+ ft. Typical copy was tape ups or paste ups of integrated circuit mask which was made many times large than the require size. This was the first step in reduction towards making a photo mask in semiconductor fab.

This shop closed down some time during the late 1990's after this type of work went digital. I knew the owner well from working with them. He sold me all the lenses from the process cameras they had. Sadly all these process cameras were scrapped.


Bernice

StoneNYC
12-Mar-2014, 00:29
Wow!

What do you shoot with it??!!

Dan Fromm
12-Mar-2014, 04:19
Oh, my. Bernice, you just surprised me. A lot. I never expected pornography from you.

Andrew Plume
12-Mar-2014, 05:11
yes

terrific

thanks for posting this a rare beast too

regards

andrew

Amedeus
12-Mar-2014, 07:56
Very nice ... drool ... Just what I need ... ;)

NancyP
12-Mar-2014, 17:13
Yow! 1778mm lens - call it a telescope!

Mark Sampson
12-Mar-2014, 20:04
too bad we're not likely to see any pictures made with it. Telephoto views on 20x24? a la Andreas Feininger? they'd be spectacular if you could get it to work.

StoneNYC
12-Mar-2014, 21:14
too bad we're not likely to see any pictures made with it. Telephoto views on 20x24? a la Andreas Feininger? they'd be spectacular if you could get it to work.

I'm not sure I follow, why wouldn't you be able to see any pictures made with them? I would make one just because I could if I had that lens...

Mark Sampson
13-Mar-2014, 19:03
My point was that these lenses are rare, and that they are rarely used to make photographs. (I'm not counting the graphic-arts copying use they were designed for.) Few people have a camera with enough bellows to focus an 1800mm lens, and fewer have an actual pictorial application for it. Not to mention the formidable technical and logistic issues involved with using such a setup in the field. I admire the work of Douglas Busch, and especially the work of the late Reinhart Wolf, who used lenses of up to 1200mm, but I can't recall seeing any recent work using optics of this sort. Although I'd certainly like to!

Amedeus
13-Mar-2014, 19:39
These lenses are rare, yes and I'm sure there will be a few that are gathering dust but I do know a few photographers that use 70" or 1800mm lenses to make real photographs/art, not just process camera work.

I for one am looking for either Nikkor 1800mm APO, Rodenstock Ronar 1800mm or Goerz Artar 70". To make pictorial work, regardless of the challenges. As for bellow draw, I have up to 13 feet available between lens and film plane. Enough for 1:1 work ;-)

ymmv.

StoneNYC
13-Mar-2014, 21:37
My point was that these lenses are rare, and that they are rarely used to make photographs. (I'm not counting the graphic-arts copying use they were designed for.) Few people have a camera with enough bellows to focus an 1800mm lens, and fewer have an actual pictorial application for it. Not to mention the formidable technical and logistic issues involved with using such a setup in the field. I admire the work of Douglas Busch, and especially the work of the late Reinhart Wolf, who used lenses of up to 1200mm, but I can't recall seeing any recent work using optics of this sort. Although I'd certainly like to!

I know a few LF photographers who use a 1200mm for sure, but I think those are probably not process lenses and are probably actual lenses designed for LF work... But 1800mm is just a different beast! :)

Bernice Loui
13-Mar-2014, 21:39
More than a few have asked me if I have this 70 inch Artar for sale.. I'm not the owner of this 70 inch Artar, just sharing these images with others here that might be interested.

I have used a 47 inch Artar in the past.. quite a nightmare. There is no real bellows limit for a Sinar, just add rail extensions, front standards and bellows as much as needed. The shutter is not a problem as the Sinar shutter does fine. Supporting the whole works is just one of the serious problems. Trying to keep the far over sized camera, lens and all stable enough is just difficult in every way imaginable. Any movement results in blurred images.

The longer the focal length with larger format size the difficulty grows in non-linear ways.

This is where the Tele Nikkor (the one with three interchangeable rear elements) can work well, specially if the format is smaller than 8x10.


Dan, it is possible there may be more lens porn I'll post in the future :)
After tinkering with many, many lenses over the years, it cure me of looking for the fantasy lens and concentrate on just a few that produces what works for me.


Bernice



yin

hoffner
14-Mar-2014, 07:25
Trying to keep the far over sized camera, lens and all stable enough is just difficult in every way imaginable. Any movement results in blurred images.

The longer the focal length with larger format size the difficulty grows in non-linear ways.
Bernice



yin

Indeed, at this focal length even vibrations of the ground (be it due to traffic, your own steps or whatever else) cause considerable deterioration in the image quality. After all, there are very good reasons why such long lenses are not used in normal LF photography.

Mark Sampson
14-Mar-2014, 12:32
Still, I'm sure all of us here are tempted by the idea. Then I remember once trying to shoot a portrait with a 24" Artar on my friend's 8x10. We were just fooling around but it was a daunting experience even for the two of us (who have lots of LF experience). And no, we never shot any film that day. Using his 14" lens was a much better idea.

Randy Moe
1-Oct-2014, 18:02
Yes, even my studio Deardorff with 75" of bellows draw would only just focus at infinity. Of course it would also have to be outside and my Deardorff requires complete disassembly to get out the door. Good thing.

I think the max I can use is 36" and I happen to be waiting for one. I will use it for 1 to 1 portraits, inside, with lot's of strobe.

I have shot 25" and 30" lenses 1 to 1 with it and everything seems fine. I think the weight of the big lenses help dampen the internal Packard shutter, and strobe stops movement.

It also sits on solid mounts on a thick cement slab. Trucks do wiggle the slab, but they are seldom here and will become less often as the park construction ends.

But as a beginner I have no fear and trundle into land unknown.

The 70" would need a room, a truck or trailer box camera and that would also be fun. 13 feet to get 1 to 1, how dim is that. (inside joke). :)

Amedeus
1-Oct-2014, 19:11
I have the trailer and all that's needed for the 13 ft ;-)

Will be shooting this with 1200 mm shortly and a 60" lens of own fabrication ... dim, yes ... but there is such a thing as time ... lol

Later,

Rudi


Yes, even my studio Deardorff with 75" of bellows draw would only just focus at infinity. Of course it would also have to be outside and my Deardorff requires complete disassembly to get out the door. Good thing.

I think the max I can use is 36" and I happen to be waiting for one. I will use it for 1 to 1 portraits, inside, with lot's of strobe.

I have shot 25" and 30" lenses 1 to 1 with it and everything seems fine. I think the weight of the big lenses help dampen the internal Packard shutter, and strobe stops movement.

It also sits on solid mounts on a thick cement slab. Trucks do wiggle the slab, but they are seldom here and will become less often as the park construction ends.

But as a beginner I have no fear and trundle into land unknown.

The 70" would need a room, a truck or trailer box camera and that would also be fun. 13 feet to get 1 to 1, how dim is that. (inside joke). :)

Randy Moe
1-Oct-2014, 19:27
Did you read about the woman in latest View Camera magazine shooting with a van as camera using pinhole?

Harold_4074
2-Oct-2014, 20:13
With a van or trailer, lots of gaffer tape and ortho film, a 70" lens would be a lot fun---put the lens in the door, a focusing target on a tripod (!), and a red safelight for attaching the film to the focusing target. Then pop the lens cap off for the exposure....but be careful not to shake the trailer! With a ball head on the tripod, you could have any combination of rear movements imaginable. Maybe a cell phone or walkie-talkie to direct the subject from inside the camera?

This is, after all, fundamentally how the big process cameras were operated. Except for the jacks under the suspension to keep it from re-framing the picture as you moved around :)

dgibbphoto
3-Oct-2014, 10:40
I do own one of these Goerz Red Dot Lens. I used it for years on a Brown process camera creating 4'x6' pieces of film for a cartography lab. Its a real piece of optical engineering.122731122732122733

djdister
3-Oct-2014, 10:52
I do own one of these Goerz Red Dot Lens. I used it for years on a Brown process camera creating 4'x6' pieces of film for a cartography lab. Its a real piece of optical engineering.122731

I mean this in the most technical sense -- WOWSER, what a lens!

Randy Moe
3-Oct-2014, 11:06
But what's it done for you lately?


I do own one of these Goerz Red Dot Lens. I used it for years on a Brown process camera creating 4'x6' pieces of film for a cartography lab. Its a real piece of optical engineering.122731122732122733

jbenedict
3-Oct-2014, 11:22
I'm thinking Graflex "Big Bertha". After building the camera, rent a bucket truck and mount it to the bucket. Either the photographer could be up in the bucket or use a video camera and electrorelease to fire the camera. Still would have to bring it down to change the film holder. Would be pretty cool!

David Lindquist
3-Oct-2014, 14:13
I just looked at my modest Goerz archive. An August 1970 price list shows $3987.50 for the 70 inch Red Dot Artar (at this time Goerz was owned by Kollmorgen). And a May 1975 price list shows the price had more than doubled to $8200. (By 1975 Goerz was owned by Schneider Corporation of America.)
David

Mark Sampson
3-Oct-2014, 17:37
Mr. Lindquist, those list prices suggest to me that if you asked, and put up a lot of money, they would make one for you. Those lenses weren't sitting on a shelf waiting to sell! Which reminds me that in the late 1980s, Leica had a special deal going; if you ordered one of their super-telephoto lenses, an 800mm I think, they would throw in a VW Fox to go with it. One of the cheapest new cars of the time, but still, a new car to sweeten the deal.

David Lindquist
3-Oct-2014, 21:09
Mr. Lindquist, those list prices suggest to me that if you asked, and put up a lot of money, they would make one for you. Those lenses weren't sitting on a shelf waiting to sell! Which reminds me that in the late 1980s, Leica had a special deal going; if you ordered one of their super-telephoto lenses, an 800mm I think, they would throw in a VW Fox to go with it. One of the cheapest new cars of the time, but still, a new car to sweeten the deal.

I expect you are right Mark. A 70 inch Red Dot Artar, like high end machine tools (think Monarch 1000EE lathe) to pick one example, were not commodity items that would be in the inventory of the maker, much less the distributer, just waiting for a buyer.

David

Amedeus
4-Oct-2014, 00:19
Very nice ... drool ... just what I need ...


I do own one of these Goerz Red Dot Lens. I used it for years on a Brown process camera creating 4'x6' pieces of film for a cartography lab. Its a real piece of optical engineering.122731122732122733

cyrus
4-Oct-2014, 20:49
Lets talk, Rudi