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View Full Version : what support is good for my Wisner 11x14?



originalphoto
6-Mar-2014, 09:01
I got my Wisner 11x14 finally. The problem is I only have Gitzo gt 3540ls + g1570m, the tripod is good since capacity is 40lbs, but support g1570m's capacity is only 22 lbs and the camera is weight 27 lbs by itselp without lens and film holder. I know ries A-250 could handle my camera, but it looks pretty heavy (6lbs). What other support is good for my requirement?

Carl J
6-Mar-2014, 09:22
Wow! Wish I knew the answer, but will be very interested to hear what others recommend. I have the Gitzo 1570 and an Induro aluminum tripod good up to 44lbs., I think. 27lbs is pretty hefty but I bet a fine camera.

loukilouko
6-Mar-2014, 09:45
For my Chamonix 11x14" (#7kg), I use a stativ Uni 14 Berlebach (good up to 50 kg according to the manufacturer).
So good!

Liquid Artist
6-Mar-2014, 10:31
Although I don't shoot ULF yet, I use a Linhof 003323, which I found used for $150.00 Canadian.
I don't think I'd hesitate using it even for something that big.
Although Linhof doesn't show a weight rating for it on their website they do call it their sturdiest 2 section tripod, for all applications.

Dave Wooten
6-Mar-2014, 10:35
I use the majestic for Wisner 14 x 17 , geared center column and geared tilt. They are often on the used market at very low prices.

tgtaylor
6-Mar-2014, 11:22
I have that head and I think that the only problem you'll have with it is downward drift. I use it with a Toyo 810G which with a Schneider 360 Symmar-S the total weight approaches the heads published limit and I have to apply some torque to keep it from drifting.

Thoma

Neal Chaves
6-Mar-2014, 14:55
My largest tripod is a Quickset Hercules I bought from Navy Surplus (DRMO) with matching dolly. I don't use it much because the largest format I use is 8X10, but when I do need it, nothing else will do. I also have a Majestic and a modified Benbo that takes the Majestic geared head. I use the Benbo in the field most of the time.

originalphoto
6-Mar-2014, 15:45
I may need to clarify my question: I am ok for my tripod, I need to find a support (head) to replace my gitzo g1570M such as Ries A-250-2.

carverlux
6-Mar-2014, 16:54
I may need to clarify my question: I am ok for my tripod, I need to find a support (head) to replace my gitzo g1570M such as Ries A-250-2.

You have to think through 2 issues - holding the weight as well as managing the vast shift in weight distribution inherent in using anything bigger than an 8x10.

As such, you may have to rethink your tripod and head, as the weight capacity literally have nothing to do with how well it will work with your 11x14 along these two dimensions. The Gitzo models you mentioned were not designed to support a 30-lb monstrosity that will be stretched out with at least 15 inches of bellows and used in the wind (or even a breeze).

Best case, you will have to wait for the camera to settle down before you make an exposure, much like what you need to do when enlarging with the lamphouse way up on the column. More worrisome would be when you are outside and the wind starts to blow even a little bit, your Wisner bellows will act like a sail and tip that nice Gitzo over without even trying. This can be counteracted somewhat with putting weight on the hook at the bottom of the column, but that dainty little thing (and the thread on the inside of the column holding it on) is not meant to take the weight of a cement block, which may be what you require to stabilize the 30+ lbs rig you have on top. Even if you only shoot inside, you have the other problem - the longer bellows extension at indoor distances will move your center of gravity well past the center column and a head not designed for the weight shift will not stop moving, no matter how long you wait.

One important aspect of tripod stability for large format cameras that is seldom discussed now is the size of the platform. With your Wisner 11x14, you have at least a 14"x14" bedplate onto which the tripod screw secures. Do you think a 77mm (3.1") diameter platform will likely hold it still? No way. A 6" x 8" platform like the ones that came with the old Davis & Sanford or Quickset heads may be more suitable. And these were intended only for 8x10, not 11x14. The bigger the tripod platform you have, the more stable your 11x14 will be. It's physics.

So I am with Neal above - your safe bet is a Quickset Hercules tripod with their 4-52217-3 geared head, or at least a Linhof Heavy Duty 003323 with their 003368 head - the Linhof is a second choice because it still has a small platform at 90mm. But they are serious tripods and heads that were made to keep precision military and astronomical instruments as still as possible because even the most minute movement is seriously magnified by the high powered optics. You have the same requirements - its called bellows extension.

Good luck.

originalphoto
6-Mar-2014, 17:16
thanks a lot, very helpful.

William Whitaker
6-Mar-2014, 17:44
If you've been using a Gitzo head, is it safe for us to assume, then, that you are using Gitzo legs? If so, then a Ries A-250 head by itself is not going to help you much because there is no way to mount it to the Gitzo legs without losing your ability to pan. You'd be better off to go ahead and get the Ries A100 tripod to support it.

I had a Wisner 11x14 camera myself at one time and used it atop an A100/A250 combination. The large platform of the A250 is good for supporting the large base of the camera. Further, the large crown of the tripod forms a very rigid support for the weight of the head and camera, not to mention torsional forces from wind acting on the bellows. I now have a Wisner 14x17 and am using an early version of the A100 with the early Photoplane head and that works superbly (as long as I don't have to carry it very far.)

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/1220Folmer_1.jpg

This shows the early Ries supporting my 12x20 (a similar load to the 14x17). The extra piece between the camera bed and the tripod head is a "tray" I made specifically for this combination which helps to distribute the load and provides alignment guidance for mounting the camera. Load distribution is very important with a large camera for obvious reasons. Generous supporting surfaces help support not only weight, but also prevent unwanted motion (such as the camera's tendency to rotate on the tripod head). I think the Ries tripods are the way to go for your application. But I'm a little biased, perhaps. There are some other solutions out there. YMMV, as usual.

William Whitaker
6-Mar-2014, 17:53
What Mr. Lux said!

lab black
6-Mar-2014, 18:22
I have used both the Ries and the Majestic with a geared head. Either one will work. I think that Will has a good point in using a shelf or plate to distribute the weight. I have a Majestic with geared head that has a custom plate that I use for ULF. The geared head is quite useful. I also use a Ries for my 8x10 camera. The Majestic may be slightly less expensive on the used market. One cautionary note is that with the Majestic geared head, they do and can wear out and so I would suggest that the head be inspected for any play, before it is purchased.

Oren Grad
7-Mar-2014, 00:10
You're going to have ~30 pounds waving around. Ries A100-2/A250-2.

Ginette
7-Mar-2014, 16:53
I have a Cambo 3D Gearhead-SCH Listed to 55 lbs actually in the For Sale http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?111404
I have also a Manfrotto 400 but listed only to 22lbs but look more solid than that to my sense, in this topic http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?111403

William Whitaker
7-Mar-2014, 18:30
I have a Fiberbilt case for my Ries. Looks like this: http://www.amazon.com/Fiberbilt-P-508-Adjustable-Tripod-40-50x10/dp/B00012ABEC. Makes carrying the tripod much easier, although still quite a load. But then you weren't going backpacking anyway, were you?

It's amazing how much a Crown #4 tripod will hold. In fact, Agfa used to market a tripod which was like an even beefier version of the Crown #4. Larger and taller, it is a very capable tripod; they show up occasionally on Ebay. I've used mine with 7x17. I'd wager it would be fine for your 11x14. Still knocked down like the Crown into three legs and the round top (about 6" across). Don't know what you'd use for a head. The old Crown clapboard style heads were wonderfully simple, but I've never gotten one to work right; the camera screw always gets in the way of it sitting level. I used that Agfa tripod without a head. Of course, with a 7x17 I wasn't concerned so much with tilting the camera down. Merely adjusting the tripod legs was enough. The camera panned just fine against the felt covering atop the tripod. I don't have a photo now, but if you're still looking in a couple of months, I'll have access to that stuff.

John Powers
7-Mar-2014, 20:38
I use a Reis A100 tripod and A250 double tilt head under a Phillips 7x17 that is only 12 pounds. There have been many threads and posts about tripods and heads. I simply prefer the rigidity, the big mounting base, the lack of vibration and the ease of use of the Reis. Besides they are very good looking. Some might call it over kill for such a light and rigid camera, but it feels good to me. I carry the camera mounted on the tripod in the back of a SUV. In most cases I can just pull them out together and set up. When I need to move some distance I use a three wheeled baby jogger with 20" wheels and 100# shock absorbers.

John

Leonard Robertson
8-Mar-2014, 19:14
[QUOTE=
It's amazing how much a Crown #4 tripod will hold. In fact, Agfa used to market a tripod which was like an even beefier version of the Crown #4. Larger and taller, it is a very capable tripod; they show up occasionally on Ebay. I've used mine with 7x17. I'd wager it would be fine for your 11x14. Still knocked down like the Crown into three legs and the round top (about 6" across). Don't know what you'd use for a head. The old Crown clapboard style heads were wonderfully simple, but I've never gotten one to work right; the camera screw always gets in the way of it sitting level. I used that Agfa tripod without a head. Of course, with a 7x17 I wasn't concerned so much with tilting the camera down. Merely adjusting the tripod legs was enough. The camera panned just fine against the felt covering atop the tripod. I don't have a photo now, but if you're still looking in a couple of months, I'll have access to that stuff.[/QUOTE]
I'm not familiar with an Agfa version of the Crown tripod, but EKC/Folmer made a larger-than-#4 Crown they called the "Professional Tripod" From the 1935-1936 Eastman Professional Photographic Apparatus catalog, the specs on it are:
Length closed, 24 1/2 inches; extended, 5 feet; weight, 11 1/4 pounds; diameter of top, 11 1/2 inches; Price.....$22.00
The specs for the Crown No. 4 are Length closed 20 in.; Extended 5 1/2 ft.; Weight 90oz.; Diameter of top 6 1/2 in.; Price...$13.50

The Professional legs were the leg set for the #10 Cirkut camera. I got a set of these legs when I bought a gearhead for a #10 Cirkut. My set doesn't have any markings as to manufacturer or model. I've never seen one of the 11 1/2" diameter tops. I imagine it to be a larger version of the #4 Crown top, but I don't really know. A George Murphy Photographic Materials catalog from 1931 shows the Professional Tripod and says it is "For 14X17 or smaller cameras". EKC/Folmer also made extra-tall leg sets styled like the Crown legs. If you search "Cirkut" on eBay there is a set of 13 foot ones currently listed.

Len

William Whitaker
8-Mar-2014, 19:53
Agfa called their Crown-look-a-like tripod a "Utility Tripod" and it is listed on page 14 of their 1941 catalog which can be seen on Cameraeccentric.com (http://cameraeccentric.com/html/info/agfa_1.html). Would love to see one of the EKC/Folmer "Professional tripods" you speak of, Len. I'd wager my 14x17 would do fine on the Agfa. I'll have to try it sometime. The 7 1/2" top would provide a pretty sound foundation for that camera. While it's a bit complicated to detach and fold the legs, it's not nearly so heavy as the Ries and folded, it travels well. Even so, I don't think I'd trade the Ries for anything right now.

Leonard Robertson
8-Mar-2014, 20:55
Will - Thanks for posting the link to the Agfa catalog. I've seen it before, but I didn't think to look at the tripods there. Cameraeccentric has a 1927 Eastman Professional catalog which shows the Crowns and Professional on page 28. I need to dig out some Crown #4 legs and compare to the Professional. As I recall, the Professional legs don't seem vastly bigger than the #4s.

The obvious drawback to the Professional is that it isn't very tall. Not a real problem on level ground, but out in the field it is nice to be able to extend one leg downhill. Years ago I saw a Seattle Cirkut photographer who made leg extensions for his Professional Tripod in order to get the Cirkut up high to shoot groups of people (when shooting down on a group it helps show all the faces in the back rows). Having just one leg extension for a Crown tripod would be handy for downhill situations.

Len

lfpf
9-Mar-2014, 10:36
For stability, consider a surveyor's tripod. New/used options include wood, aluminum, composite and cam-lock legs make top plate leveling easier than screw-lock. Consider mounting the 11/14 assembly directly to the leveled top plate. For 8/10, this is very stable.

Steve

William Whitaker
9-Mar-2014, 14:38
I may need to clarify my question: I am ok for my tripod, I need to find a support (head) to replace my gitzo g1570M such as Ries A-250-2.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Since you're looking for a replacement head, let me offer this suggestion (which I think is pretty cool.) In a flash of inspiration, thanks to this thread, I decided to try my Linhof Kardan II head (at least I think that's what it's called; no doubt it has a number) on my Gitzo G1548 MkII carbon fiber legs. Fortuitously, the Europeans were on the same page when it came to tripod thread dimensions and both Gitzo and Linhof use 3/8-16 threads. The Linhof head, which normally would sit securely inside a 90mm collar on top of my twin-shank Linhof tripod (which, too, has a number, but I don't know it off the top of my head) simply screwed onto the top of the Gitzo. The diameters match very well and the head is a good match. (I had thought it might overpower the legs, but it doesn't.)

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_01.jpg

Man! What a solid combo! It's still not terribly lightweight at 11.2 lbs combined, but it's far easier to transport than the Ries. The head alone is a 4.6 lb chunk of beautifully-executed German engineering. For ULF this is sweet. I'm still more comfortable using my Ries, but that's more to do with me and muscle memory than it is to do with the hardware.

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_02.jpg


The head requires a top plate as shown below. I finally found one at Linhof & Studio in the U.K., but another popped up on Ebay several months later and I nabbed it, too. They come in either 1/4-20 or 3/8-16. My Wisner 14x17, which I've shown for the purpose of illustration (your camera being very similar) sports both 1/4-20 and 3/8-16 tripod sockets, one of Ron's more laudable design choices. The top plate spins in, then it with the camera attached slides into the top collar of the tripod head.

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_03.jpg


http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_04.jpg

continued below...

William Whitaker
9-Mar-2014, 14:39
Some more photos showing the combo:

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_06.jpg

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_07.jpg

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_09.jpg

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_08.jpg

Well, there's half of a Wisner 14x17 there, anyway. But you get the idea. The front standard is currently out for refitment to allow use of larger lensboards since the original only allowed the use of Wisner 5 1/4" boards (one of Ron's less laudable design choices!)

I think these heads were discontinued some time ago. I found mine on Ebay (of course). They do show up from time to time. There is a similar version with only one support strut which seems slightly more common. I've never used that one; I would think the twin-strut version as shown here would be more desirable for your application.

I also have the G-1570 low-profile head (it came with the tripod as purchased from a member here). And the G-1570 is not adequate for the 14x17. It actually flexes quite a bit under the load. But the Linhof just laughs (in German, of course!)

William Whitaker
9-Mar-2014, 14:42
And finally, one more "upskirt" photo showing the tilt locking knob on the Linhof head. The other knob secures the top plate in the locking collar.

http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_10.jpg

fecaleagle
9-Mar-2014, 14:49
I use an old Ries Photoplane Tilt Head as well, and with a platform ~6.5" wide by ~8" long, I am confident it will support anything I can put on it. Really easy to use as well, although difficult to lock the pan screw. Need to replace the knob to make my life easier.

Edit: Heavy as all get-out though.

William Whitaker
9-Mar-2014, 20:56
http://wfwhitaker.com/tech/gitzo-linhof_08.jpg


The cream-colored knob visible at the left is the pan lock. This head will mount directly to the large Gitzo tripods with 3/8-16 studs and provides both pan and tilt function, whereas the comparable Ries head loses its pan capability if it's mounted to a Gitzo. The Linhof shown is similar to the Ries in terms of strength and stability.

Michael Kadillak
10-Mar-2014, 21:03
You're going to have ~30 pounds waving around. Ries A100-2/A250-2.

Absolutely agree.

When you even think of shooting down or up at a subject and you have it racked out the Ries combination is necessary. When I had a Wisner Tech Field before my Deardorff V11 I learned this lesson. Wide legs and a large 6" square plate to sit the camera down for dinner. The side adjustment capability is fabulous and it is stable. The thing you find out quickly when you need to shoot with the front of the camera up is to place the brass for and aft adjustment of the A250 head in front of the camera where it operates in reverse and you get your shot. A heavy tripod and head in this application is not a bad thing.

Michael Kadillak
10-Mar-2014, 21:17
111951

The image that Will has posted above is only a partial set of the Linhof head as one can easily see. The older version that I have was designed for a Karden monorail camera because it has no lateral capability and this flexibility I find very desirable than going to the legs for adjustment. This lateral mobility was designed to be obtained by rotating the rail with the clamp shown above and locking it the desired angle. It is a very stable head.