KEH - good source for used lenses?

[NancyP]

Are their ratings accurate? Prices look reasonable.

[Leigh]

I've purchased over a dozen lenses from them, mostly LF but some 35mm Nikon.

In all cases their grading was conservative. The products I received beat their evaluations.
All were graded EXC or better, and all were virtually new.

They do have a no-questions-asked return/refund policy.
Note that the return period starts the day the product ships from Atlanta, not when you receive it.

- Leigh

[Daniel Stone]

I've always been happy with them.

According to their buyer here in LA, John Izumi, they have a HUGE amount of LF related stuff, so don't try to sell stuff to them, they won't pay you anything for it, since they have so much back stock.

but buying, you can get some great deals if you watch and wait carefully

-Dan

[Drew Wiley]

I agree. They gotta make a profit, so if they are selling at relatively low prices, there's no reasonable way their going to buy from you at anything but cheap. But
I've never had a problem purchasing from them. Their ratings are conservative, and I've been surprised just how clean things were.

[NancyP]

Well, that's nice to know, because I want to buy, not sell.

[lenser]

Outstanding products and service as a buyer. I hope to do much more business with them in the future.

[Tin Can]

I buy from them often, and highly recommend them for any camera, lens or format purchase.

It's a big mistake to not check them first for anything photographic. They are often cheapest.

Also look at their separate eBay listings.

I have sold them small format digital and I considered their offers fair and very easy to consummate. No buyer remorse, no eBay fees and no complaints.

KEH is the biggest player in used equipment in the world, I believe.

[Oren Grad]

I've bought quite a few items from them over the years, most recently a few weeks ago. They'll serve up a dud now and then; it's important to remember that the grades are about cosmetics, and items with functional problems can and do slip through. But their no-hassle return policy takes much of the sting out when that happens. The last time I received an item where it was apparent that they had messed up on the grading, they picked up the return shipping cost without my even having to ask for it.

[Doug Howk]

I've bought many items from them. Only one item didn't function properly, and they promptly repaired it.
Their ratings are conservative with EX being like new. Highly recommended.

[koh303]

I agree. They gotta make a profit, so if they are selling at relatively low prices, there's no reasonable way their going to buy from you at anything but cheap. But
I've never had a problem purchasing from them. Their ratings are conservative, and I've been surprised just how clean things were.

KEH is great, and their ratings as noted are in most cases conservative by a large margin. Even those UGLY items sometimes come in in super nice condition, and if they are not working they are replaced with zero hassle.

That said, what they offer as buying prices is often funny, or might even be offensive to some. Just use their site to calculate how much they might pay for a mamiya 7 with a lens. This might not be the case with newer/digital gear, i have not checked.

[John Olsen]

KEH has given me fair prices on equipment that I've sent to them and sent good values back to me when I've bought. They also did a major, good faith price adjustment when a one-of-a-kind apparatus was partially non-functioning. I have continued to deal with them over 25 years. You will get good treatment from them.

[BradS]

only one word of caution. To KEH, all versions of copal shutters are equivalent. They do not distinguish between the shitty old fine toothed chrome ring copal and the nice new all black copal....sometimes the photo will show the lens in a nice new black copal and they'll ship the same lens in a old chrome ring copal.

I will never buy a small or medium format body from them ever again. They grade on cosmetics and only on cosmetics. The camera can be mechanically non functional but cosmetically beautiful and they have no qualms about rating it EX+

[Leigh]

The camera can be mechanically non functional but cosmetically beautiful and they have no qualms about rating it EX+
Equipment rated at any level above "As Is" is checked for basic functionality, and guaranteed.

Non-functional equipment is NEVER rated above "As Is".

Issues may exist with particular functions in rated equipment. For example:
if a shutter has M sync, I'm confident that is never checked since nobody uses it any more.

You can return any rated equipment within 14 days for exchange or refund. They even pay return postage.

What's the problem?

- Leigh

[BradS]

Cameras rated at any level but the lowest are checked for basic functionality, and guaranteed.

You can return any rated cameras within 14 days for exchange or refund. They even pay return postage.

What's the problem?

- Leigh

The problem is that it is a pain in the ass! It always takes at least ten days from the day I place an order with them to the day the package arrives at my house...ten more for the return trip...now, another ten for the replacement item...get the idea? I do not like to play this game....and I've been stupid enough to do it more than once....never, ever again. Even bad eBay sellers are better than this....and with eBay, I can ask questions about the item I'm buying and see photos of the actual item. Sorry KEH sucks.

Further, in my experience they do not check functionality of 35mm gear...or if they do, they are completely incompetent (it has been a few years since I've stopped buying from them though so, that may have changed).

[Leigh]

The problem is that it is a pain in the ass!
Sorry KEH sucks.
Well, Brad, if you want something to work 100% every time, stop buying used gear.

On the other hand... some KEH customers suck.

- Leigh

[jwaddison]

I've bought a few things from them over the years and have never been disappointed. Their international shipping rates (to Canada at least) are very high. I just ordered a $110 lens, and the shipping was $40, and Fedex then phones me up to tell me they want another $10 to "process" the item through customs. That $10 should have been an up-front cost, since they knew it was an international shipment, and of course it has to go through customs. Compared to what I would have had to pay in Canada, the lens was still a good deal.

[rdenney]

No seller of used equipment is going to get it right every time. One should not buy used equipment on a time-critical basis. I bought a Pentax leaf-shutter lens from them that didn't work because of a dent that prevented the shutter cocking ring from turning. I'm assuming the dent occurred during handling for shipping. I didn't have time to send it back, so I fixed it myself--that was on me. I've bought a lot from them and will continue to do so--but realizing that testing for functionality isn't the same thing as testing for like-new operation, and that expecting them to get it perfect for a time-critical activity is like gambling with grocery money.

Rick "let's stick with actual experiences, not commenting on that of others" Denney

[goamules]

Well, Brad, if you want something to work 100% every time, stop buying used gear.

On the other hand... some KEH customers suck.

- Leigh

I'll buy that. +1

[BradS]

I bought a Nikon FE body, rated EX+ from KEH some years ago. It took ten days from the day I placed the order to the day it arrived. It was immediately apparent that the light meter did not work - at all. When I called the to ask for a return/replacement, I asked how this could happen. How could I get an EX+ camera with a broken light meter? The customer service guy told me straight out that 35mm gear is graded on cosmetics only...and it was true the FE was in beautiful cosmetic condition. I sent that one back, they sent another one. The replacement arrived some thirty days after my original order was placed. It too was beautiful and broken - the film advance did not advance the film. So, I called them and asked for a refund...which they begrudgingly gave me but that took another thirty days, approximately, to happen.

That's just one experience with them. I have purchased other stuff from them and been quite satisfied with what I received.

Other thing to consider:
1) you cannot ask questions about the specific item you are buying. The customer service people are in one building and the goods are in a warehouse some place far enough away that it is completely impractical for them to lay hands on an item.

2) The photo is definitely NOT a photo of the actual item you are buying.

3) if you pay for two day shipping and it takes them three business days to process your order, it feels like five days or more if you get weekend in there.

[Renato Tonelli]

I don't understand why even a thread like this one becomes contentious - I honestly don't get it.

Back to the original question - I have been purchasing used gear from KEH for a few years - so far no problems. The equipment works and as others have mentioned, the ratings on the cosmetics is conservative. Some of the gear I received (a Fuji 645 that I eventually resold through this forum comes to mind) was rated EX - It looked new - not a blemish on it.

If you are ever in NYC, Fotocare also carries used LF equipment (on consignment) and the staff is very knowledgeable and helpful.

[NancyP]

Thank you for your opinions. I may give them a try.

[lenser]

Brad,

Sorry you had a less than stellar experience with them. On the other hand, I've bought many times and only had two incidents where I had to call them on the items I bought.

One was a Zone VI bag bellows, the first version which was half bag and half pleated. After it had been more than 30 days past the warranty date, it delaminated between the two sections. I called. They did not have a replacement. Even though the warranty had expired, they immediately sent me a full refund so I could purchase a new one from Calumet.

The second was a Hasselblad 500CM which was shown in the on line ad with a new version of the film winding crank. The one I received had the old one. I called. They said a new version would be on it's way that day and to just keep the old one.

By the way, I've found their service/repair department to be every bit as helpful and honorable.

Great company in my opinion.

[Leszek Vogt]

Nancy, overall you could do lot worse than KEH. I've purchased various items from them in the recent years and I've been v. satisfied with the transactions. Most recently I bought a longer lens (Nikon) from them and a week or two later they announced "free shipping" thing. When I called them about it, they honored my purchase and I got a full refund for shipping. Anyway, if only other companies were as good as this one....

Les

[mdarnton]

I have had mixed luck with KEH's stuff, which I don't think they test at all before they send it out, but their customer service in response has been instant, no-questions asked, to solve any problem, and their prices are very good, for the things I want.

[brucetaylor]

I have read so many highly positive opinions about KEH that I decided to try them a year or two ago. I had a terrible experience. I think most of it revolved around a 90mm Super Angulon on a recessed Linhof board with a cam. It all came packaged in the same bag, my assumption being the lens, recessed board and cam were a set. The lens would simply not operate in the recessed board, insufficient clearance, so they weren't actually a set. Then I found the board was the wrong depth to sync with the rangefinder on my Technika. Many, many telephone calls and emails ensued, I think it took a couple of months to get the thing sorted. The only resolution was to purchase another, higher priced replacement. After all this, do you think you (KEH) could help me out a little on the additional cost-- since your original item was totally unsuitable, did not work and months have passed trying to work this out? A resounding NO. Pay up or go home. It was a strange and unpleasant retail experience. Almost everyone else writes about the terrific experiences they have, I must have been the unlucky one. I have purchased a couple of items from their ebay outlet, great transactions all, shipped fast and very well packed. YMMV, but realistically it's always a crap-shoot buying this old gear.

[Mark Stahlke]

I've had good luck with KEH. Buy with confidence.

[jwaddison]

The lens I ordered (where I bitched about the shipping cost a few posts ago) arrived today. It was graded Ex, but there is not a blemish on it and it works perfectly. It looks so new the previous owner must have used kid gloves every time he picked it up.

[Leigh]

A thought just popped into the vacuum between my ears...

I'll bet the grading is done by KEH's buyer at the time the item is purchased.
This would make sense since the price paid depends greatly on the condition.

It would be to their advantage to find every possible nit to downgrade the item.
We as subsequent purchasers might never notice those particular nits.

The rating may never be reviewed after the item is received in Atlanta.

- Leigh

[Oren Grad]

This would make sense since the price paid depends greatly on the condition.

I had some subjective impressions about this, too. Out of curiosity, I just exercised their quote widget on two LF items. For ease in comparison, I've added percentages, with the "LN-" grade in each case assigned a value of 100%.

Linhof Master Technika
LN- $1113.90 100%
EX+ $1075.83 96.6%
EX $986.53 88.6%
BGN $667.60 59.9%

Schneider Apo-Symmar 210mm f/5.6 with caps
LN- $166.00 100%
EX+ $151.60 91.3%
EX $139.60 84.1%
BGN $94.00 56.6%

I wanted to add a late-model DSLR for comparison, but a dialog box popped up saying there is a limit on the number of quotes you can get in one day. The fraction of new selling price will be much higher for a current DSLR, but I'm curious as to whether the "condition curve" is similar. If someone else can pick a current DSLR model and check that it might be interesting.

[Richard Rankin]

A thought just popped into the vacuum between my ears...

I'll bet the grading is done by KEH's buyer at the time the item is purchased.
This would make sense since the price paid depends greatly on the condition.

It would be to their advantage to find every possible nit to downgrade the item.
We as subsequent purchasers might never notice those particular nits.

The rating may never be reviewed after the item is received in Atlanta.

- Leigh

I think you're correct on this. I asked a question about a BGN lens recently, and the sales rep explained that once they grade and buy, items are boxed for shipment and stored in a warehouse out of the city. (He did get me an answer within an hour, though).

My BGN purchases have been better than an Ebay 'Excellent' rating. I got a terrific 210mm lens recently in perfect shape, downgraded to BGN because it didn't have the caps.

I love KEH.

Cheers,
Richard

[Bernice Loui]

Been purchasing stuff from KEH since the early 1980's.

Their grading is very reasonable, return policy is good, pricing fair and service is good overall. I suspect these are the reasons why they have been around for so long.

Last purchase made was a 24" Goerz Red Dot Artar in a #5 Ilex shutter that was on clearance due to modifications made on the shutter by the previous owner.
Turns out the mods were done to add an external flash sync. Other than the usual old Ilex shutter sticking due age, one good cleaning got the shutter working fine. The glass and overall condition were better than advertised.

Highly recommended. Never had a issue or problem with KEH all these years.

Bernice



Are their ratings accurate? Prices look reasonable.

[ImSoNegative]

I also purchase from keh often, great to deal with, excellent customer service!! just know that if you try to sale to them they might hurt your ego a bit when it comes to your gear, I sent them a lens that I thought was really nice but in reality it was bargain grade :( but I wouldn't hesitate a moment when it comes to buying from them

[Lenny Eiger]

KEH is Ok, but the best place to buy lenses is right here. I have gotten a few lenses from the For Sale area, and have always had a great experience.

Lenny

[Drew Wiley]

Oh for sure, Lenny. KEH tends to have a lot of typical older studio and student plasmats, and not much of those specialty LF lenses we tend to use. But still, they're
an excellent resource, esp for MF stuff.

[Corran]

I had some subjective impressions about this, too. Out of curiosity, I just exercised their quote widget on two LF items. For ease in comparison, I've added percentages, with the "LN-" grade in each case assigned a value of 100%.

Linhof Master Technika
LN- $1113.90 100%
EX+ $1075.83 96.6%
EX $986.53 88.6%
BGN $667.60 59.9%

Schneider Apo-Symmar 210mm f/5.6 with caps
LN- $166.00 100%
EX+ $151.60 91.3%
EX $139.60 84.1%
BGN $94.00 56.6%

I wanted to add a late-model DSLR for comparison, but a dialog box popped up saying there is a limit on the number of quotes you can get in one day. The fraction of new selling price will be much higher for a current DSLR, but I'm curious as to whether the "condition curve" is similar. If someone else can pick a current DSLR model and check that it might be interesting.

That's interesting. I didn't know there was a limit to the # of quotes you could get. However, I've wondered if their online quote system collected data to use in their pricing model - i.e. if some particular product is getting hammered for quotes, they might reasonably surmise a lot of people are looking to sell them and lower the quote some.

Last year I put in a quote for an expensive, specialty lens. Their quote was extremely good - higher than I was asking for it on eBay! So I was going to sell to them but I wasn't quite ready before I read the fine print. I also checked out all of the grading possibilities and subsequent prices. I was about to accept the offer when the next day suddenly the quote I was given changed to 25% less than before! I was a little shocked. Ended up selling elsewhere. I figured they might not give it a LN- grade even though it looked mint, considering the # of BGN items I've purchased that looked almost new.

[sanking]

KEH is a great place to buy, in large measure because of the great return policy.

For selling, if you have an ebay account and are used to selling there, you will generally do much better than KEH. I recently sold a very nice Linhof Technikardan 45 and a high end DSLR on ebay. Quote from KEH was $740 for the Linhof, and $1800 for the DSLR. I sold the Technikardan on ebay in 45 minutes for $1600, and the DSLR within three hours for $2450.

Sandy

[StoneNYC]

I'm looking at a particular lens on KEH, but there's no info about it, except the name of the lens, and even the IC info says 8x10 when it's an 11x14 coverage. So, what's the deal? It's EX+ condition but, doesn't say much more... It's almost $900, so do I drop that? Or what? How can I know if for the price there isn't some other issue not listed? Cleaning marks or lens cap / rear cap missing etc.

Afraid to say which lens or you guys might grab it! Haha.

Thanks!

~Stone

[Dan Fromm]

If it doesn't please you can return it.

[evan clarke]

Absolutely..30 day return and a 6 minth warranty. I've bought many and all of them looked like new.

[Tim Meisburger]

Short answer. Yes (I've also bought from them).

[Steve Barber]

Another vote for KEH.

One caution, do not assume that anything not listed is included. For example, you mentioned missing lens cap(s). If those are not specifically listed as included, they will not be and you will have to buy them separately.

[analoguey]

There was someone's cautionary note about overseas returns but in your case, that wont apply.

[StoneNYC]

Another vote for KEH.

One caution, do not assume that anything not listed is included. For example, you mentioned missing lens cap(s). If those are not specifically listed as included, they will not be and you will have to buy them separately.

Thanks everyone. There was no note at all, nothing... Not actual IC or anything.

Where would I even buy lens end caps from? And how do you ship a lens with no caps and not have it get scratched in shipping?

I've never bought a lens without caps, seems odd that there would even be a lens missing caps, kinda an important part of the whole storage deal...

[Jim Rice]

It will be shipped in a baggie and bubble wrapped but without the notation "w/ caps" it will be capless. The first place to look for caps is KEH so you won't have to pay an additional shipping charge (if ordered with the lens.) If they rate it as EX+ it will be a beauty. If you do order caps with it they will be in separate baggies unless included in the original listing. I have never seen any ill effects from this method of packing.

[jnantz]

their front page explains their rating system ..

b/h sells lens caps
sk grimes will custom make you one

[Simon Benton]

Yes

[EdSawyer]

I have bought a few lenses from KEH for large format, they have all been great. They tend to under-grade stuff so it comes through better than expected. E.g. their EX is basically as-new. They have good return policies too. I'd just get the caps from them if need be, too.

And don't be coy, it's not like they have that many lenses listed. It's probably this one:

http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LF06999034595N?r=FE

Large Format - Fixed Focal Length Lenses

450 F12.5 FUJINON-C COPAL BT (42 MT) 8X10 LARGE FORMAT - 450 F12.5 FUJINON-C COPAL BULB, TIME (8X10)(42 MOUNT) *WITH CAPS

If I had to guess. ;-)

Which is decently priced, but not a screaming deal...


-Ed

[StoneNYC]

I have bought a few lenses from KEH for large format, they have all been great. They tend to under-grade stuff so it comes through better than expected. E.g. their EX is basically as-new. They have good return policies too. I'd just get the caps from them if need be, too.

And don't be coy, it's not like they have that many lenses listed. It's probably this one:

http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LF06999034595N?r=FE

Large Format - Fixed Focal Length Lenses

450 F12.5 FUJINON-C COPAL BT (42 MT) 8X10 LARGE FORMAT - 450 F12.5 FUJINON-C COPAL BULB, TIME (8X10)(42 MOUNT) *WITH CAPS

If I had to guess. ;-)

Which is decently priced, but not a screaming deal...


-Ed

SHHHHH!!!! Lol

I want a 600 C also... Ugh... I would trade my 75 Grandagon N plus other stuff for it... No one seems to want my 70mm HP5+ film, which sucks as it was $200/roll...

Anyway thanks guys, wish I had lots of cash to make this an easy choice (before someone snagged it...)

[vinny]

Last week's thread on the same subject:http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?111685-KEH-good-source-for-used-lenses&highlight=Lenses+keh
If you don't have the $$, stick with 4x5.

[Greg Y]

I got my gold rim 8" Dagor from them many moons ago...in perfect condition....
They're always worth a try!

[evan clarke]

Thanks everyone. There was no note at all, nothing... Not actual IC or anything.

Where would I even buy lens end caps from? And how do you ship a lens with no caps and not have it get scratched in shipping?

I've never bought a lens without caps, seems odd that there would even be a lens missing caps, kinda an important part of the whole storage deal...

I use snap caps on everything and loike them better. I bought a bunch of them in different sizes from a seller on eBay for under $1.00 each.

[jnantz]

SNIP


If you don't have the $$, stick with 4x5.

hands-down best advice i have ever read on this website ...

[dtheld]

I've always found KEH to be great to deal with. In fact, I'm waiting for delivery on a 4x5 camera.

Unfortunately, KEH's no questions asked return policy has changed:

What is KEH’s return policy?

If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase from KEH Camera, you may return it within 14 days for a refund or exchange. Please contact the Sales Department BEFORE returning an item to obtain authorization and return instructions. The Sales Department may be reached via telephone at (770) 333-4200 or via email at sales@keh.com.

Returns and exchanges are allowed within 14 days of delivery and are subject to the following conditions:
•NEW items must be in perfect, brand new condition and returned in manufacturer’s original undamaged box. All manufacturer’s original packing materials, accessories and original unused warranty cards (and rebate forms if applicable) must also be included and in perfect condition.
•USED items must be in same condition as originally shipped USED items must be in the same condition as originally shipped. Items that have incurred impact, water or sand damage will not be accepted.
•Due to the perishable nature of film and other photo sensitized products, we cannot accept returns on these items.
•Returned items must be shipped prepaid to KEH Returns.
•Returned items shipped COD will not be accepted.
•AS IS items are not returnable.
•Returned items that do not meet the above conditions will be subject to a minimum 15% restocking fee.
•Returned items received after 30 days will be subject to a minimum 15% restocking fee, and may only be applied to other merchandise. A refund will not be issued.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[Alan Gales]

Thanks everyone. There was no note at all, nothing... Not actual IC or anything.

Where would I even buy lens end caps from? And how do you ship a lens with no caps and not have it get scratched in shipping?

I've never bought a lens without caps, seems odd that there would even be a lens missing caps, kinda an important part of the whole storage deal...



;) No big deal. People lose caps all the time. My 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar and Fujinon 250 lenses both sport new Nikon pinch caps. I actually prefer the Nikon caps and you can buy them on Ebay cheap.

[EdSawyer]

re: 600C, etc - you might consider the Nikkor-T 360/500/720 set. I think price-wise (and scarcity-wise) it might work out to the same cost or somewhat similar. Of course, the coverage of those doesn't extend to 8x10 or 11x14 but still...

I would be surprised if that 450c disappears really fast - if it was say $550 or something, that might be a different story.

[StoneNYC]

re: 600C, etc - you might consider the Nikkor-T 360/500/720 set. I think price-wise (and scarcity-wise) it might work out to the same cost or somewhat similar. Of course, the coverage of those doesn't extend to 8x10 or 11x14 but still...

I would be surprised if that 450c disappears really fast - if it was say $550 or something, that might be a different story.

Well it NEEDS to cover 8x10... Also, it's a weight thing... The T set is still heavier than the 3 lenses as far as I can tell, by a significant amount. If it weren't I WOULD consider it as 720 is nicer for sure, but cutting weight with the compact lenses and knowing all my filters fit, that's important.

[Leigh]

Unfortunately, KEH's no questions asked return policy has changed:
That's the same return policy they've had for the several years that I've dealt with them.

What do you think changed???

- Leigh

[alavergh]

I've both ordered online AND called them to ask some questions about their stock and what would work well. I don't know a ton about large format specs and what was necessary, but they helped me get a good lens for my (camera 210mm fujinon) and some lens boards. I didn't know what coverage I needed, nor did I know what lens board would fit my camera. Arthur did a great job helping me out.

I think this has gone past a review of keh, but I have had nothing but good experiences.

[StoneNYC]

Thanks everyone! If I can find the money before it goes, I may buy it. For these lenses, I'm willing to spend the money for basically a new lens price if it's like a new lens, I spent $600 on the 300mm C and it was worth every penny. It's perfect for my future system and now it's just finding a 180mm-210mm that covers 8x10 with movements and isn't a hundred lbs...

[Alan Gales]

It's perfect for my future system and now it's just finding a 180mm-210mm that covers 8x10 with movements and isn't a hundred lbs...

Stone, do yourself a favor and pick up an older single coated Fujinon W 250mm f/6.7 lens instead. It has an image circle of 398. I paid only $300.00 for my nice example in a modern Copal 1 shutter. I weighed mine for you on my postage scale and it weights 1.8 lbs and that includes a Technika style board and Gepe cable release. It's a bit heavier than what you are used to but welcome to the world of 8x10.

[vinny]

Stone, do yourself a favor and pick up an older single coated Fujinon W 250mm f/6.7 lens instead. It has an image circle of 398. I paid only $300.00 for my nice example in a modern Copal 1 shutter. I weighed mine for you on my postage scale and it weights 1.8 lbs and that includes a Technika style board and Gepe cable release. It's a bit heavier than what you are used to but welcome to the world of 8x10.

Far too heavy. Even heavier than my 210 fujinon w. he wants lightweight AND coverage in a 180-210 wide lens. Which does not exist.

[Alan Gales]

Far too heavy.


;)

[StoneNYC]

Stone, do yourself a favor and pick up an older single coated Fujinon W 250mm f/6.7 lens instead. It has an image circle of 398. I paid only $300.00 for my nice example in a modern Copal 1 shutter. I weighed mine for you on my postage scale and it weights 1.8 lbs and that includes a Technika style board and Gepe cable release. It's a bit heavier than what you are used to but welcome to the world of 8x10.

As vinny said, that is far too heavy for my needs, to give you an example, the 450mm fujinon C lens listed only weighs 8oz....

[vinny]

As vinny said, that is far too heavy for my needs, to give you an example, the 450mm fujinon C lens listed only weighs 8oz....

more like 10oz but who's counting, that's only 25% difference

[koh303]

Where would I even buy lens end caps from?

I've never bought a lens without caps, seems odd that there would even be a lens missing caps, kinda an important part of the whole storage deal...

As with many other things, google has your answer. Ebay has all the lens caps in the world.
Judging from the amount of offerings of lens caps it does not seem so odd a lens cap would go missing, in fact, most photographers who use cameras to take pictures rarely have their lens caps on, as they are usually still there just when that Pulitzer prize photo was happening...

When i worked in a camera store, by far, the most poplar item was a "keep cap" that tethers the lens cap to the camera or lens, as it was cheaper then a spare lens cap.

[koh303]

I'm looking at a particular lens on KEH, but there's no info about it, except the name of the lens, and even the IC info says 8x10 when it's an 11x14 coverage. So, what's the deal? It's EX+ condition but, doesn't say much more... It's almost $900, so do I drop that? Or what? How can I know if for the price there isn't some other issue not listed? Cleaning marks or lens cap / rear cap missing etc.

Afraid to say which lens or you guys might grab it! Haha.

Thanks!

~Stone

About 10 years ago i called KEH about an LF lens, the guy who answered said that he cannot say anything about a particular item, as there might be 10 or 100 of the same item on the shelve and no guarantee i would be getting any one of those, and that i should go with their rating, and if not happy - just send it back. Does not get much easier then that.

[Terry Moore]

Yes! They are great to deal with.

[Barry Kirsten]

I agree. I've bought lots of items from KEH, including lenses. As someone else has said, their rating system is conservative, so anything labelled as excellent is very much that. I would even consider their BGN category; I bought a 210/360 Symmar so described and was delighted with it when it arrived and would have rated it as very good myself. Another time they apparently sent me the wrong lens, as the one I'd ordered was described as EX, yet when it arrived it had a ding in the filter thread. I emailed them and arranged to return it, KEH refunded the purchase price, and the cost of return postage, and extra to cover the exchange rate difference. You can't get fairer than that! I'll buy from KEH any time.

Barry

[John Kasaian]

The 240 G Claron is a real champ on 8x10, tack sharp and lightweight in a "modern" Copal shutter, and shouldn't break your bank either. Just sayin'

[Alan Gales]

The 240 G Claron is a real champ on 8x10, tack sharp and lightweight in a "modern" Copal shutter, and shouldn't break your bank either. Just sayin'

Here you go, Stone!. Just 8.6 ounces.

[StoneNYC]

Here you go, Stone!. Just 8.6 ounces.

I already own the fujinon 300mm C and that's close enough to 240 that I don't need both, what I need is a wider lens, close to 90mm in 4x5 (which is 200mm in 8x10) a 450mm C and a 600mm C and perhaps someday something longer, but for now, those are my choices, I have already decided on the 450 and 600 so truly I just need a good 200mm that covers 8x10, this would be for sweeping landscape but with some tilt to close up objects. So I need some movement capability.

As for lens caps, do you think that if I call them and buy over the phone, I can get them to ship it with the lens caps ON the lens? Lol

[Steve Barber]

As for lens caps, do you think that if I call them and buy over the phone, I can get them to ship it with the lens caps ON the lens? Lol

Somehow, I seem to have got you obsessing about the lens caps. It's simple, if you want them, be sure they are included and, if they are not, order the lens caps with the lens and pay extra for them. As to shipping, you should not get into that. Click on the condition given for the lens. If that is what you want, then it is up to KEH to get it to you in that condition. If they do not, you can return it. If you try to insert yourself into their internal procedures for shipping, then you unnecessarily complicate things and you give them an out if something goes wrong. In other words, they have to pack it in a way that works. If you change that and it goes wrong, then it is your problem, not theirs.

[Alan Gales]

I already own the fujinon 300mm C and that's close enough to 240 that I don't need both, what I need is a wider lens, close to 90mm in 4x5 (which is 200mm in 8x10) a 450mm C and a 600mm C and perhaps someday something longer, but for now, those are my choices, I have already decided on the 450 and 600 so truly I just need a good 200mm that covers 8x10, this would be for sweeping landscape but with some tilt to close up objects. So I need some movement capability.

As for lens caps, do you think that if I call them and buy over the phone, I can get them to ship it with the lens caps ON the lens? Lol


At the wide end for 8x10 if you want a large image circle for plenty of movements the lenses are very expensive and big and heavy. You just don't have the choices like you do in 4x5. You might look at the Fujinon 210 like Vinny has. It's not expensive and has some room for movements. It is probably heavier than you want. There is also the old Wollensak 159mm lens.

Call KEH and ask them how they can ship the lens. I have yet to buy from them but they have an excellent reputation.

[vinny]

Cut holes in your bellows and drill holes in your film holders to reduce the weight. This will offset the HEAVY lenses.

[Leigh]

Cut holes in your bellows and drill holes in your film holders to reduce the weight. This will offset the HEAVY lenses.
Lens weight can be reduced substantially by removing the front or rear cell, or both.

Added advantages of removing both cells are zero distortion, and light attenuation is reduced to zero.

- Leigh

[John Kasaian]

The Wollensak 159mm EWA or f/9.5 WA "yellow dot" Velostigmat is very wide and light weight, hardly any movements on an 8x10 though, but sure is inexpensive!
A Schneider 165mm f/8 Super Angulon is very wide, heavy like a boat anchor and has acceptable movements but will cost you considerably more.
A Nikon 120mm SW is also worth considering
Take your pick!

[Curt]

I want a 20x24 velociraptor with no crustaceous on the lens! The Fuji 420c could be that old time favorite!

[StoneNYC]

I would generally only use a modern lens for the work I plan to do, if I'm using an older lens it would be for 4x5 or some kind of paper neg or wet plate and then I wouldn't worry about weight as I wouldn't be out in the wilderness.

I think the 120mm is a bit wide.... 18mm equivalent in 35mm ... wow now that's wide!! It's also a bit heavy, but as was said, that "wide" a FL and the glass gets heavy...

It's fairly heavy, but I'm impressed at its coverage. I will admit it would be stunning in some very specific and choice locations, I feel like it's applications are so few and far between it would be more of the type of lens that I would use once I'm already famous and could afford it and get good use out of it. As of now I have a 75mm grandson that I haven't used a single time in 4x5 and keep gravitating to the 90mm .... Iroinc since I often used the 43mm in my Mamiya 7 ...

This is one of those "I see differently in different formats" thing I think... so who knows, maybe I'll see wider in 8x10....

As far as weight savings, why not just make the body out of cardboard and staple bellows to that, that will save a lot of weight! I could make movements simply by denting the corrugated! :cool:

Steve, wise advice about not messing with their system, I guess they will find a way to ship it safely. I'm just surprised they don't automatically include caps, at least cheapo caps, wouldn't even cost them an extra $1... meh, I'm going to keep looking as the price is high as someone else said. But when I do get he money, they'll be MINE! :)

Hmmm maybe when I'm ready to find that 200ish mm FL for 8x10 I'll start a new thread. Seems like a tough one to find.


The Wollensak 159mm EWA or f/9.5 WA "yellow dot" Velostigmat is very wide and light weight, hardly any movements on an 8x10 though, but sure is inexpensive!
A Schneider 165mm f/8 Super Angulon is very wide, heavy like a boat anchor and has acceptable movements but will cost you considerably more.
A Nikon 120mm SW is also worth considering
Take your pick!

[Leigh]

I'm just surprised they don't automatically include caps...
They ship whatever they received with the lens from the previous owner.

That may include zero, one, or two caps, from the lens manufacturer or after-market.

Remember, this is used equipment.

Expending a lot of time and effort rounding up accessories would greatly increase their cost.

- Leigh

[csxcnj]

I got all my LF lenses through KEH but one. A Nikon 210mm was missing one of the screws that hold the cable release post. I contacted KEH the afternoon I received the lense, had a reply that evening. Had the replacement screw the day after.

Just to highlight KEH's attitude towards their customers, I received a Polariod 4x5 back that had some kind of smoodge on the rollers that was leaving a streak that showed on the developed film. I emailed KEH to let them know and told them I would try to clear the rollers and if I couldn't would return the back. The rollers cleaned up fine and I let KEH know everything was good. I got a reply saying "thanks" and they refunded me $15 for my trouble.

KEH is my first look for anything I want to buy.

[Alan Gales]

Stone, look through past threads on here or just google "Best wide angle lens for 8x10". You will easily find plenty of information.

Finding a small, lightweight wide angle for 8x10 with lots of coverage is just like finding the magic bullet though.

[StoneNYC]

Stone, look through past threads on here or just google "Best wide angle lens for 8x10". You will easily find plenty of information.

Finding a small, lightweight wide angle for 8x10 with lots of coverage is just like finding the magic bullet though.

Thanks, most of those threads don't care about "lightweight" that's the issue. I will, my main concern right now was understanding KEH.

Which I now have done.

[Alan Gales]

Thanks, most of those threads don't care about "lightweight" that's the issue.

That's true but if you see a lens mentioned that you are interested in you can then research that lens and find out the weight. Modern lenses like you are interested in are usually easy to find specs on.

When you go wider than 240mm in a modern lens for 8x10 you are a bit limited in your choices even if you don't care about weight.

[StoneNYC]

That's true but if you see a lens mentioned that you are interested in you can then research that lens and find out the weight. Modern lenses like you are interested in are usually easy to find specs on.

When you go wider than 240mm in a modern lens for 8x10 you are a bit limited in your choices even if you don't care about weight.

Thanks. I'm resigned to the fact that with the 200mmish range, I'll have to go over a pound and the over 600mm I'll have to go over a pound as well... Such is life...

I honestly can't get good specs on the fujinon 600mm C, it's odd...

Anyway thanks everyone!

[Alan Gales]

A quick check for Fujinon C 600mm f/11.5 I found someone saying 575 grams or about 21 ounces.

[StoneNYC]

A quick check for Fujinon C 600mm f/11.5 I found someone saying 575 grams or about 21 ounces.

Thanks. Good enough... Now if I could only find an 800mm or 1200mm in the compact weight class.... Hah!

Fuji really had something here, it's a shame that only at the end of the popularity of LF did this come out, no one else seemed to catch on or be able to design something so small and light... (That I know of, and I've looked a LOT). Though not too much into the 800mm-1200mm range just yet....

[Eric Leppanen]

Thanks, most of those threads don't care about "lightweight" that's the issue.This thread does (see the posts by myself and Kerry Thalmann in particular):

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?44442-210-for-8x10

[8x10 user]

The 210mm sironar W, and SSHM will be the sharpest but it sounds like you are looking for something more compact... A "Computar" with removable hood might be a good choice if you can find one.

If I remember correctly the computar includes a spacer ring that you can remove for infinity optimization. With the ring in place it is optimized for 1:1.

The original Angulon is a small lens as well.

[Leigh]

If I remember correctly the lens includes a spacer ring that you can remove for infinity optimization.
Which lens???

You mention four different lenses in that post.

Which one had the optimization ring?

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Computar, also some ronars but those wont cover 8x10 at 210mm.

[StoneNYC]

The 210mm sironar W, and SSHM will be the sharpest but it sounds like you are looking for something more compact... A "Computar" with removable hood might be a good choice if you can find one.

If I remember correctly the computar includes a spacer ring that you can remove for infinity optimization. With the ring in place it is optimized for 1:1.

The original Angulon is a small lens as well.

Have you used the fujinon Compact series? It's pretty darn sharp! As sharp or possibly sharper than my Schneider 150mm f/5.6 Symmar-S.

[8x10 user]

Have you used the fujinon Compact series? It's pretty darn sharp! As sharp or possibly sharper than my Schneider 150mm f/5.6 Symmar-S.

No I haven't but I believe it is similar to the Apo Ronar, with narrow coverage but good sharpness when stopped down.

Having owned 3 drum scanners and a Creo Eversmart Supreme I can say from my own experiences that the best Rodenstock E.D. glass is good for about 3000 PPI or a 10x enlargement. It should be a little sharper then the more basic designs from Fuji and Nikon. Now whether the difference is noticeable or matters to you is another question... Also how big do you want to print?

The Symmar S is from the 70's right? The newer "Apo" versions have been upgraded with a special glass type. Some of the Rodenstock Apo lenses also use E.D glass (Apo Sironar W, Apo Sironar S, Apo Grandagon, and the Apo Sironar Macro)

I would think that being that you are in NYC it shouldn't be that hard to find someone who would lend you one of those newer E.D. glass lenses. There should at least be rental office that supply's them. Check one out at let us know what your opinion is.

I would expect the Computar to be similar to the Fuji's C in sharpness and the Angulon a little softer.

[vinny]

What ultralight 8x10 camera/tripod combo are you going to put these lenses on?
And are you expecting sharp results?

[StoneNYC]

What ultralight 8x10 camera/tripod combo are you going to put these lenses on?
And are you expecting sharp results?

Chamonix 810

Yes, sharp enough.

[StoneNYC]

No I haven't but I believe it is similar to the Apo Ronar, with narrow coverage but good sharpness when stopped down.

Having owned 3 drum scanners and a Creo Eversmart Supreme I can say from my own experiences that the best Rodenstock E.D. glass is good for about 3000 PPI or a 10x enlargement. It should be a little sharper then the more basic designs from Fuji and Nikon. Now whether the difference is noticeable or matters to you is another question... Also how big do you want to print?

The Symmar S is from the 70's right? The newer "Apo" versions have been upgraded with a special glass type. Some of the Rodenstock Apo lenses also use E.D glass (Apo Sironar W, Apo Sironar S, Apo Grandagon, and the Apo Sironar Macro)

I would think that being that you are in NYC it shouldn't be that hard to find someone who would lend you one of those newer E.D. glass lenses. There should at least be rental office that supply's them. Check one out at let us know what your opinion is.

I would expect the Computar to be similar to the Fuji's C in sharpness and the Angulon a little softer.

Common mistake, I live in CT... Haha ;)

I would test it before you judge it's sharpness.

Anyway anything made in the last 20 years is probably good enough. I'm not sure how the C compares to true APO lenses, but I know it has virtually no aberrations.

[8x10 user]

The fujinon C is an "Apo" lens... Its a decedent of the Apo Artar and is essentially a 100 year old design. Similar lenses include the Apo Ronar, and Apo Tele Xenar Compact.

There are some threads where the advantages of modern plasmats over dialytes are discussed. Look for one where bob describes the advantages of the Apo Sironar S over the Apo Ronar.

Dialytes are pretty decent lenses. I like them myself (ronars). They are sharp lenses that are good for close ups and landscape work when stopped down. Sharpness should be a little higher at wider apertures with an E.D. glass plasmat but eventually both should become diffraction limited with similar sharpness when stopped down far enough (in the center). Other advantages of lets say a Sironar S would include much greater coverage, more even illumination, and much greater sharpness at the edges.

The Rodnestock Apo Sironar S is widely considered to be the sharpest LF lens available (with a few exceptions... Apo-El-Nikkor and Printing Nikkor). I would expect the Sironar S to show substantially better performance then your Symmar s.

The Fujinon C does have an advantage in that it is very small and I can see how this factor can make it more desirable over a giant Rodenstock lens. Dialytes are good for long focal length lenses when you only use the center of the image circle and a small circle is required. The Apo Ronar was marketed for many years as a long "taking" lens. Really comparing a Sironar S to a fujinon C is silly because you use the Sironar S as a Normal focal length lens when the Fuji C wont even cover. You wouldn't use a 300mm Sironar S on 4x5 and a 300 fuji C wont cover 8x10.

Personally I don't believe that there is a single ultimate lens. There many different types of lenses out there each with its on attributes. Some are sharper, some are smaller, and some are softer :) I say use what works for you. I think the computar is the right mix of portability and sharpness for you.

I have sold most of my sharp lenses in favor of old brass. I do have a 210 SSHM that I need to sell but I don't think it is the right lens for you.

[8x10 user]

The long focal length Ronars are pretty big due to the larger apertures but another lens to check out is the Red dot Artar (for long focal lengths). Andrew G (dagor) has been raving about the Artars performance for years.


Thanks. Good enough... Now if I could only find an 800mm or 1200mm in the compact weight class.... Hah!

Fuji really had something here, it's a shame that only at the end of the popularity of LF did this come out, no one else seemed to catch on or be able to design something so small and light... (That I know of, and I've looked a LOT). Though not too much into the 800mm-1200mm range just yet....

[Alan Gales]

The long focal length Ronars are pretty big due to the larger apertures but another lens to check out is the Red dot Artar (for long focal lengths). Andrew G (dagor) has been raving about the Artars performance for years.

I own a 19" (482.6mm) Red Dot Artar in an Ilex #4 shutter. According to my postal scale it weighs 1 pound 2.7 ounces.

I know the 24" (609.6mm) Artars also came in an Ilex #4 but I don't know what they weighed.

[Kodachrome25]

Personally I don't believe that there is a single ultimate lens.

For me it is the 135mm 5.6 Apo Sironar S, but then I have zero interest in going larger than 4x5 as subject impact and fast reaction time are paramount to me getting a salable image.

[StoneNYC]

The fujinon C is an "Apo" lens... Its a decedent of the Apo Artar and is essentially a 100 year old design. Similar lenses include the Apo Ronar, and Apo Tele Xenar Compact.

There are some threads where the advantages of modern plasmats over dialytes are discussed. Look for one where bob describes the advantages of the Apo Sironar S over the Apo Ronar.

Dialytes are pretty decent lenses. I like them myself (ronars). They are sharp lenses that are good for close ups and landscape work when stopped down. Sharpness should be a little higher at wider apertures with an E.D. glass plasmat but eventually both should become diffraction limited with similar sharpness when stopped down far enough (in the center). Other advantages of lets say a Sironar S would include much greater coverage, more even illumination, and much greater sharpness at the edges.

The Rodnestock Apo Sironar S is widely considered to be the sharpest LF lens available (with a few exceptions... Apo-El-Nikkor and Printing Nikkor). I would expect the Sironar S to show substantially better performance then your Symmar s.

The Fujinon C does have an advantage in that it is very small and I can see how this factor can make it more desirable over a giant Rodenstock lens. Dialytes are good for long focal length lenses when you only use the center of the image circle and a small circle is required. The Apo Ronar was marketed for many years as a long "taking" lens. Really comparing a Sironar S to a fujinon C is silly because you use the Sironar S as a Normal focal length lens when the Fuji C wont even cover. You wouldn't use a 300mm Sironar S on 4x5 and a 300 fuji C wont cover 8x10.

Personally I don't believe that there is a single ultimate lens. There many different types of lenses out there each with its on attributes. Some are sharper, some are smaller, and some are softer :) I say use what works for you. I think the computar is the right mix of portability and sharpness for you.

I have sold most of my sharp lenses in favor of old brass. I do have a 210 SSHM that I need to sell but I don't think it is the right lens for you.

You give a lot of good info, and then you say the 300mm C won't cover 8x10 when it does... So I'm not sure which of your info is correct...

[Leigh]

You give a lot of good info, and then you say the 300mm C won't cover 8x10 when it does...
Per the datasheet, the IC for the Fujinon C 300/8.5 is 380mm.

Given that the diagonal of 8x10 film is 325mm, the C should cover it with some modest movement available.

- Leigh

[8x10 user]

Hmm. I stand corrected :)

I just thought it was the same as the Ronar.

[StoneNYC]

Hmm. I stand corrected :)

I just thought it was the same as the Ronar.

I don't know about the Ronar, but the Fujinon C lenses are specifically known for having fairly large image circles, the 300 mm will cover 8 x 10, the 450 mm will cover 11 x 14, and the 600 mm will cover I believe 14 x 17 as well as 12 x 20 or something like that, this is just another reason why I want them because if I ever want to shoot something larger, even if it's just x-ray film and a cardboard box which I already shoot with, I already have a pinhole box camera in 11x14 and x-ray film, I would like a lens to use with it rather than it be a pinhole which is what I'm currently using.

So they are a multi use lens for me.

[8x10 user]

It sounds like a great lens for you.

I do think there are some advantages to the giant E.D. glass lenses in this range however there is a huge size and weight trade-off. Personally I do prefer focusing with larger apertures, but that just me.

Your 210 options are already well discussed in the thread mentioned above. Another tiny little lens with huge coverage is the Protar F/18.

Good luck with your plunge into 8x10!

[StoneNYC]

It sounds like a great lens for you.

I do think there are some advantages to the giant E.D. glass lenses in this range however there is a huge size and weight trade-off. Personally I do prefer focusing with larger apertures, but that just me.

Your 210 options are already well discussed in the thread mentioned above. Another tiny little lens with huge coverage is the Protar F/18.

Good luck with your plunge into 8x10!

Thanks, there's a huge difference between getting a lineup of lenses for around town or in studio, and getting a range of lenses to take with you on a 2 week backcountry hiking adventure... I need all the weight savings I can to keep my pack light.

Trust me, I love focussing on super bright ground glass with f/4.5 apertures, but that giant lens would weigh as much as all 3 of these... Just not with that in terms of weight savings.

[8x10 user]

Yes.... I was once foolish to believe I could use a full 8x10 Sinar P2 kit in the field. I had to stay very close to the car and make multiple trips. It was scary having boxes of full of expensive lenses next to the side of the road while your head is under the darkcloth. Not my smartest moment.

Sinars are great but only for studio use. I decide to move down to 5x7 for any outside shots.

[jnantz]

I don't know about the Ronar, but the Fujinon C lenses are specifically known for having fairly large image circles, the 300 mm will cover 8 x 10, the 450 mm will cover 11 x 14, and the 600 mm will cover I believe 14 x 17 as well as 12 x 20 or something like that, this is just another reason why I want them because if I ever want to shoot something larger, even if it's just x-ray film and a cardboard box which I already shoot with, I already have a pinhole box camera in 11x14 and x-ray film, I would like a lens to use with it rather than it be a pinhole which is what I'm currently using.

So they are a multi use lens for me.

if you are planning on using one of these big lenses on a box camera
getting familiar with hyperfocal distance focusing might be useful ...
so you don't have to actually focus your camera ( sliding film or lens plane
or using a mount allowing for your lens to go in and out with the lensboard in place .
helical mount ? ) ... instead you set the fstop and focal distance and figure out your shutter speed
as if it was aperture priority ...
schneider posts the hyperfocal settings on their website
not sure how one would figure out what they would be for the fuji or rodenstock lenses ...
but just the same it might be something to think about so you don't have to re-engineer your
ulf camera ...

[StoneNYC]

if you are planning on using one of these big lenses on a box camera
getting familiar with hyperfocal distance focusing might be useful ...
so you don't have to actually focus your camera ( sliding film or lens plane
or using a mount allowing for your lens to go in and out with the lensboard in place .
helical mount ? ) ... instead you set the fstop and focal distance and figure out your shutter speed
as if it was aperture priority ...
schneider posts the hyperfocal settings on their website
not sure how one would figure out what they would be for the fuji or rodenstock lenses ...
but just the same it might be something to think about so you don't have to re-engineer your
ulf camera ...

Just needs to be focused for infinity, it will be fine ;)

[john borrelli]

I guess I am one of the few that finds KEH difficult to deal with.

The idea that you can not take a picture of the actual lens that you are selling to a customer is beyond me. I occasionally sell cameras and lenses on Ebay and it is no big thing to take a digital image of a lens and then provide the description of the lens, condition, etc. A while ago they had four fuji 240mm f9 lenses for sale. I was interested if one was of the latest multicoated versions of course no one there could tell me which version I would be buying. It's silly to buy four Fuji lenses, and then return them all at my expense if none of them were of the later mc versions that I wanted.

In my opinion, for any item over a certain price I really think they should be able to provide accurate info about the item you are buying. My guess is Ebay will put them out of business sooner or later if they don't adapt.

[Leigh]

The idea that you can not take a picture of the actual lens that you are selling to a customer is beyond me.
If KEH was a hobbyist selling a single lens I might agree with you.

They're not. They have a box full of any lens you care to name.

The overhead required to do as you suggest is quite excessive, including:
Photographing a lens, identified by inventory number.
Putting that photo in the ad for the lens, tagged by inventory number.
Having the stock clerk rummage through the storage box to find that inventory number for shipment.
Pull out the next example of that lens.
Unwrap it.
Photograph it.
Re-wrap it.
Return it to the storage box.
Put that photo in the ad, replacing the one that just sold.

That exercise would involve several people and cost a significant amount of money...

which would be added to the price. :eek:

You should not badmouth a reputable vendor just because they fail to meet your unrealistic expectations.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

If KEH was a hobbyist selling a single lens I might agree with you.

They're not. They have a box full of any lens you care to name.

The overhead required to do as you suggest is quite excessive, including:
Photographing a lens, identified by inventory number.
Putting that photo in the ad for the lens, tagged by inventory number.
Having the stock clerk rummage through the storage box to find that inventory number for shipment.
Pull out the next example of that lens.
Unwrap it.
Photograph it.
Re-wrap it.
Return it to the storage box.
Put that photo in the ad, replacing the one that just sold.

That exercise would involve several people and cost a significant amount of money...

which would be added to the price. :eek:

You should not badmouth a reputable vendor just because they fail to meet your unrealistic expectations.

- Leigh

That same operation already has to be done by KEH... Or how else would they give a rating to the lens??

The only added step would be 1-3 images, which could easily be taken with a cell phone or dare I say CAMERA image the digital image number would be tagged and matched to the catalogue image in a matter of seconds while they are inputting the rating data...

[Leigh]

That same operation already has to be done by KEH... Or how else would they give a rating to the lens??
Wrong.

The lens is rated by the buyer at the time it's purchased.

KEH has real people who go around the country buying photographic equipment.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

Wrong.

The lens is rated by the buyer at the time it's purchased.

KEH has real people who go around the country buying photographic equipment.

- Leigh

Oh! That's weird... Or uncommon... Ok thanks for correcting me.

However... That same person when BUYING could easily take a snapshot and tag it with the item code also. There's no excuse for a high end lens seller to not include a photograph of their product.

[Leigh]

You might find it more productive to express your concerns directly to KEH, since I don't know of any ARF members who are in a position to change KEH's corporate policies.

I expect you'll receive a reply something like this:
"If you're dissatisfied with any item purchased from KEH, you can return it at our expense within 14 days of shipment for a full refund."

These folks are selling used equipment. They know that every customer has different hot buttons.
For example...
A landscape photographer would probably not notice if the flash sync was non-functional.
Someone who only shoots wide open would not know or care if the aperture diaphragm didn't work.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

You might find it more productive to express your concerns directly to KEH, since I don't know of any ARF members who are in a position to change KEH's corporate policies.

I expect you'll receive a reply something like this:
"If you're dissatisfied with any item purchased from KEH, you can return it at our expense within 14 days of shipment for a full refund."

These folks are selling used equipment. They know that every customer has different hot buttons.
For example...
A landscape photographer would probably not notice if the flash sync was non-functional.
Someone who only shoots wide open would not know or care if the aperture diaphragm didn't work.

- Leigh

Fair enough

[greenbank]

Cut holes in your bellows and drill holes in your film holders to reduce the weight. This will offset the HEAVY lenses.

Myself, I plan to leave the bellows off my Omega 45C entirely. Another weight-saving trick vinny doesn't mention is to only load your film-holders on one side.

Sorry, off thread. I've dealt with Keh for small, medium and large format over the last year or so, and every time they have been great with both accurate (but conservative) descriptions of goods and excellent packaging for overseas delivery - never seen so much bubble wrap in my life! A couple of times they have also sent good follow-up e-mails just to make sure everything was OK.

I'm lucky to have a couple of local dealers I can visit in person, but if these guys don't have what I need then Keh is definitely my go-to supplier.

[Leigh]

Another weight-saving trick vinny doesn't mention is to only load your film-holders on one side.
One way to save a LOT of weight is to use film without film-holders.

It also saves space, reducing storage volume significantly.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

One way to save a LOT of weight is to use film without film-holders.

It also saves space, reducing storage volume significantly.

- Leigh

Why not just shoot the image without film, and then print the film-less image as am abstract concept on visualization and I'll just describe the scene and I can sell the prints and make a killing!

[Leigh]

Why not just shoot the image without film...
Because it would no longer be LF, and the mods would move the thread to the Lounge.

- Leigh

[greenbank]

Because it would no longer be LF, and the mods would move the thread to the Lounge.

- Leigh

Surely it would still be LF if you shot non-film with a LF camera? (Actually, given the way Kodak are going with their range of emulsions, I think maybe their R&D people are working on this concept as we speak.) Besides, that's what the digital people do anyway, as far as I can make out - turn up with a camera but no film, wave it about and press the shutter a few [dozen] times, then retire to play with their computers and dot-matrix printers...

I like Leigh's point abut film-holders, though. You could use low-tack photo-mount adhesive (available as a spray-on from 3M) on the non-emulsion side of the film, and just glue it to the front of the ground-glass for each shot. No worries about film-holder light leaks there, or the did-I-or-didn't-I quandary about getting dark-slides the right way round; and of course no worries about film flatness either. Reloading is easy enough, you just do it in a changing tent.

Without a bellows, that will be even easier. My plan is to go up to Scotland next winter, and shoot a concept album of the inside of blizzards. Printing may be tricky - but that's half the fun of LF.

[john borrelli]

Not trying to be perseverative or overly negative about KEH. Just a few months ago I bought a small digital camera from them and did not have a problem with it, however as far as LF lenses go, it's an odd way to do business.

I mean would anyone buy a used car from someone who could not show you an actual photograph of the used car you were buying, would not be able to specify in any way about the condition of the car(was the lens ever serviced?),or specify anything about the engine(age/condition/manufacturer of the shutter), color of the car(type of lens coatings), could not tell you the decade the car was made(lens serial number), could not tell you if it still had a new car smell or lens fungus(OK imperfect analogy there).

Really the only thing they will tell you is that if you don't like your lens you can drive it back to Georgia, at your expense.

[StoneNYC]

Not trying to be perseverative or overly negative about KEH. Just a few months ago I bought a small digital camera from them and did not have a problem with it, however as far as LF lenses go, it's an odd way to do business.

I mean would anyone buy a used car from someone who could not show you an actual photograph of the used car you were buying, would not be able to specify in any way about the condition of the car(was the lens ever serviced?),or specify anything about the engine(age/condition/manufacturer of the shutter), color of the car(type of lens coatings), could not tell you the decade the car was made(lens serial number), could not tell you if it still had a new car smell or lens fungus(OK imperfect analogy there).

Really the only thing they will tell you is that if you don't like your lens you can drive it back to Georgia, at your expense.

Yea that's my biggest issue, which shutter the black or silver... That's important to me. And I don't want to have to pay for shipping and have money held up for like a month while they process a return...

[jnantz]

Not trying to be perseverative or overly negative about KEH. Just a few months ago I bought a small digital camera from them and did not have a problem with it, however as far as LF lenses go, it's an odd way to do business.

I mean would anyone buy a used car from someone who could not show you an actual photograph of the used car you were buying, would not be able to specify in any way about the condition of the car(was the lens ever serviced?),or specify anything about the engine(age/condition/manufacturer of the shutter), color of the car(type of lens coatings), could not tell you the decade the car was made(lens serial number), could not tell you if it still had a new car smell or lens fungus(OK imperfect analogy there).

Really the only thing they will tell you is that if you don't like your lens you can drive it back to Georgia, at your expense.

i have probably bought a handful LF lenses from them
all in "bargain" condition ... since maybe 1992? and never had
a problem with 35mm or LF lenses or cameras.
the last thing i purchased from them was a nikon shift lens
also bargain, and it was in mint condition, and the time before that
was an olympus stylus epic in bargain condition, and it was
still in the original box never been opened sealed by the olympus factory for 19$ ( shipped).

the funny thing is that people act as if they HAVE TO buy from KEH, no one has to buy from them
you don't like their policies, or that they don't have lens caps, or show the actual item, just get whatever it is you are shopping for
from someone else ... at least they are a bricks and mortar place that exists, with a reputation, and not in some back alley advertising
in the back pages of some photo magazine. ( i seem to remember an exposé several years ago about legendary photo stores that were
just a hoax ) you buy from individuals they might not have a return policy, you buy from ebay, people lie through their teeth
claim ignorance &c ... KEH has been around for a long time ...

if i ever get a windfall of $$ i will be happy to buy from them again ..
from what i understand, they are the largest used camera equipment dealer on the planet.
lens caps are cheap, and if the camera or lens isn't what you bargained for, just ship it back ...
they will be happy to sell it to someone else.

[Jacques-Mtl]

I bought a 75mm Nikon LF lens from Keh and it is in perfect condition.

[koh303]

Yea that's my biggest issue, which shutter the black or silver... That's important to me.
why is it so important?
Perhaps KEH is not for you

[john borrelli]

Why is the shutter important?

Well you could be interested in a 150mm schneider g claron for example.

This lens has been made for a long time. You could be buying a modern version with an all black copal shutter, or a very old version with a similarly old shutter, or a barrel version that an owner at some point decided to add an old shutter to themselves.(In this latter example, some lens designs are particularly sensitive to the installation of the shutter as it can affect the performance of the lens. Rodenstock would probably prefer I did not try to install a shutter in one of their apo sironar lenses myself, for example. A giveaway of this issue may be the latest version of a lens with a very old shutter.)

At any rate all of these versions of the G Claron will be worth less if you need to resell it but you may have overpaid for one of those versions thinking it was the newer one with the latest shutter they pictured in the ad.

But it's not just resale value, versions with the older shutter may be more likely to need a servicing sooner which will cost you some additional time and money and it might be harder to get the shutter serviced if it is an older shutter because of a lack of available parts.

And also, some of these versions of copal shutters may also have slightly different specs, or features, or need to be operated slightly differently than shutters on lenses you already own, as is the case with the copal press shutter version for example. I have seen G clarons with this version of copal shutter from time to time.

Some photographers may feel these issues about the shutter are not important and that's fine, but again the question was asked and I tried to do my best to answer it in detail as their may be others who are new to LF and may read this thread and might benefit from the information. All the best

[StoneNYC]

Why is the shutter important?

Well you could be interested in a 150mm schneider g claron for example.

This lens has been made for a long time. You could be buying a modern version with an all black copal shutter, or a very old version with a similarly old shutter, or a barrel version that an owner at some point decided to add an old shutter to themselves.(In this latter example, some lens designs are particularly sensitive to the installation of the shutter as it can affect the performance of the lens. Rodenstock would probably prefer I did not try to install a shutter in one of their apo sironar lenses myself, for example. A giveaway of this issue may be the latest version of a lens with a very old shutter.)

At any rate all of these versions of the G Claron will be worth less if you need to resell it but you may have overpaid for one of those versions thinking it was the newer one with the latest shutter they pictured in the ad.

But it's not just resale value, versions with the older shutter may be more likely to need a servicing sooner which will cost you some additional time and money and it might be harder to get the shutter serviced if it is an older shutter because of a lack of available parts.

And also, some of these versions of copal shutters may also have slightly different specs, or features, or need to be operated slightly differently than shutters on lenses you already own, as is the case with the copal press shutter version for example. I have seen G clarons with this version of copal shutter from time to time.

Some photographers may feel these issues about the shutter are not important and that's fine, but again the question was asked and I tried to do my best to answer it in detail as their may be others who are new to LF and may read this thread and might benefit from the information. All the best

What he said... Exactly...

[Alan Gales]

Rodenstock Imagons were first installed in really old Compur shutters, then modern Compur shutters and lastly the modern Copal shutters. These were all mechanical shutters. They were also installed in those electronic shutters which no one wants that used a battery.

Shutters can make a big difference in performance and also resale value.

[koh303]

what is the difference between a modern copal with a silver speed ring and a modern copal with a black speed ring...?

[Alan Gales]

what is the difference between a modern copal with a silver speed ring and a modern copal with a black speed ring...?

The aperture control lever on the chromed ring copal shutter is on the bottom where the aperture control lever on the all black version is on the top is the only difference that I know about.

Of course the all black Copals are newer and bring more money at resale.

[StoneNYC]

what is the difference between a modern copal with a silver speed ring and a modern copal with a black speed ring...?

Well they didn't arbitrarily change colors...

It also identifies as newer, generally less wear etc, I'm sure updated designs, probably more accurate...

And Alan said, design updates.

I've seen some silver copal shutters with an X and M option for the flash sync, now that's OLD, I wouldn't want one of those...

[jnantz]

I've seen some silver copal shutters with an X and M option for the flash sync, now that's OLD, I wouldn't want one of those...

:)

that's kind of funny

some of the really old ones have a V on the flash sync
its for summoning the gods vulcan down from the mountains
( for the timer ). ;)

even the silver ones don't really break down even when they are used all the time.
ive had silver copal shutters for a long time never had issues ...

i'd ask people (here on this board .. a poll ?) who have these shutters how often they have
broken ( not cla broken cause that is routine maintenance ) but broken and needed a repair broken ..
and i am guessing the color of the shutter really has not much to do with it as much as
what day of the week the shutter was assembled ... monday and friday shutters, like cars,
break down more often because of weekend ... or user error, like cocking the shutter and changing speeds.

its the old shutters like the betax shutters that are worth their weight in gold, they are old, and built like a tank...

[DennisD]

I just jumped onto this thread.....

but isn't it possible to specify to KEH when you place an order, for example:

" I only want a black shutter, not a silver one ? "

Is that asking too much ?

[koh303]

Well they didn't arbitrarily change colors...

It also identifies as newer, generally less wear etc, I'm sure updated designs, probably more accurate...

And Alan said, design updates.

I've seen some silver copal shutters with an X and M option for the flash sync, now that's OLD, I wouldn't want one of those...

112670
Copal 3 with a black ring.

112671
Copal 3 with s silver ring. Both share the EXACT same internal (and external, aside from ring color) design.

As always, your comment assumes a great deal. A newer shutter, IE with a black ring could have been used in a commercial studio and got beaten down, more then an "older" but same technology shutter, which was used privately not more then 1-2 times a year...

What design updates are you referring to, other then the black paint coat to the speed ring?
(*** I know the aperture setting handle was also changed from white, with a red arrow to black, with a red arrow, but i am not sure that made a big difference as the speed setting ring color might have on the over all use of said newer model shutters).

[Alan Gales]

112670
Copal 3 with a black ring.

112671

What design updates are you referring to, other then the black paint coat to the speed ring?
(*** I know the aperture setting handle was also changed from white, with a red arrow to black, with a red arrow, but i am not sure that made a big difference as the speed setting ring color might have on the over all use of said newer model shutters).

I own a chrome ringed Copal 1 for my Fujinon 250mm f/6.7 lens. It looks a lot different from your chrome Copal 3 and has the aperture control lever on the bottom. The lever is all metal with no plastic. The shutter speed ring is more heavily knurled also. I would guess mine is older than yours.

[koh303]

I own a chrome ringed Copal 1 for my Fujinon 250mm f/6.7 lens. It looks a lot different from your chrome Copal 3 and has the aperture control lever on the bottom. The lever is all metal with no plastic. The shutter speed ring is more heavily knurled also. I would guess mine is older than yours.

Yes, that is in fact an older model. Not the case with the two examples above.

[Leigh]

Let's face it, folks.

You have no idea what usage and storage conditions any used lens has endured.

That's true whether you buy from KEH or the local camera store or a guy on the corner.

- Leigh

[Alan Gales]

Let's face it, folks.

You have no idea what usage and storage conditions any used lens has endured.

That's true whether you buy from KEH or the local camera store or a guy on the corner.

- Leigh

That is so true, Leigh. The thing is that on Ebay people will pay more for something newer because they perceive it as better.

Frank Petronio once said that he didn't want to buy any old lens and shutter in mint condition for fear the lens wasn't used because it was a "dud".

[Leigh]

Frank Petronio once said that he didn't want to buy any old lens and shutter in mint condition for fear the lens wasn't used because it was a "dud".
Frank had reality by the short and curlies. ;-)

The same logic can be applied to a "rare" lens.
It might be rare because those who own it love it and don't want to part with it.
Or it might be rare because it was a dog and nobody bought it in the first place.

With any piece of used gear, you simply don't know.

Of course the same is true of new stuff from a certain country that I need not name.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

All I know for sure is that I own 5 lenses that I use on my 4x5 ... 3 black copal, 1 silver copal, and one 100 year old kodak ball bearing shutter and the only one that sticks is the silver one... And when it sticks anywhere from 1s to 1/8 it STICKS as in just doesn't close till you tap it... And of course your image is ruined ..

And whenever I see a for sale when someone says "sticks at 1s" it's almost always invariably a silver copal

[Alan Gales]

All I know for sure is that I own 5 lenses that I use on my 4x5 ... 3 black copal, 1 silver copal, and one 100 year old kodak ball bearing shutter and the only one that sticks is the silver one... And when it sticks anywhere from 1s to 1/8 it STICKS as in just doesn't close till you tap it... And of course your image is ruined ..

And whenever I see a for sale when someone says "sticks at 1s" it's almost always invariably a silver copal

When shutters get old the lubricants in them get gummed up. Ever think about sending it out for a CLA?

[koh303]

stone:
silver ring copal shutter 112677
≠
silver ring copal shutter 112678

Not all silver ring copals are born equal.

[koh303]

When shutters get old the lubricants in them get gummed up. Ever think about sending it out for a CLA?

its usually cheaper to buy another shutter or lens...

[Alan Gales]

its usually cheaper to buy another shutter or lens...

I guess that depends. You can get a shutter CLA'd for $100.00. If you have to ship it you will have to pay for that too of course.

[john borrelli]

I just jumped onto this thread.....

but isn't it possible to specify to KEH when you place an order, for example:

" I only want a black shutter, not a silver one ? "

Is that asking too much ?



Unfortunately, you can not specify type of shutter, you can not specify multi-coated versus single coated if that isn't clear from the ad as might be the case with some Fuji plasmat lenses. If I were going to purchase a rodenstock mc lens, and they had one of the latest versions with a colored ring I would want that one myself but they can not tell you that either. A few lenses, Fuji comes to mind, produced similar lenses with different filter sizes, if you were to ask them to confirm whether the lens had a 52mm filter size or a 67 mm filter size, they would not be able too.

Again, these may be things that are not important to some buyers, which is fine too.

[StoneNYC]

When shutters get old the lubricants in them get gummed up. Ever think about sending it out for a CLA?

Nope, the lens cost me $125 and it's a CLA for $125, so why bother, just get a new lens ;) hah!

But seriously I would if it were important but I just know not to use it at those speeds, and if I must, I click it 3-6 times just to sort of get it warned up, that seems to help.

I'm probably moving to 8x10 and may not keep it, sell it for what I got it for with the issue described.

It's mostly fine because I'm aware of it, but still if I'm spending $700 at KEH on a lens, I want a newer black copal...

And I don't think that's unreasonable to ask from a seller...

If I bought a used car, and had to spend $10,000 on a Toyota camery and they sent me 4 of them before I got one that was a 2012 and the first 3 were 2008, 2003, 1988, I would be pretty pissed off, this isn't Russia in the 1980's... They should be able to show you the product you're buying...

B&H does it on used equipment... And they are massive...

[jnantz]

you know their ratings are cosmetic only right ?
it will most likely need a cla ....




B&H does it on used equipment... And they are massive...

keh is the largest used dealer in the world, b/h uses product shots from the manufacturers on new, they dont sell anywhere as much used ... and last i checked they didnt have product shots of all their used ...

[Leigh]

Stone...

If you don't like KEH's policies, then don't deal with them. Those policies are clearly stated on the site.

You can always start a competing business, with policies as you've advocated.

When you go bankrupt, you can offer your stock here at a discount, which we'll gladly take.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

Good point! haha

I started this thread because I wanted to understand KEH's system, now I get it, I don't like it, and if I can find a better lens at a better price that I can actually see what it is, I'll most likely not buy the KEH one..

Thanks all for the help...

How how come no one ever gives me the authority to close my own created threads... can't I even do that without bothering a mod? LOL I guess it should be left open for future inquiries for others looking for info or for other questions... guess it shall remain open for eternity to haunt the mods every 2 years when a new ME comes along! muahahaha :)


Stone...

If you don't like KEH's policies, then don't deal with them. Those policies are clearly stated on the site.

You can always start a competing business, with policies as you've advocated.

When you go bankrupt, you can offer your stock here at a discount, which we'll gladly take.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

Threads only belong to the OP as long as there are no replies.

Once someone else posts, the thread becomes community property.

Think of it like marriage. The problems only start when a second person gets involved.

- Leigh

[koh303]

[QUOTE=StoneNYC;1123035]if I can find a better lens at a better price that I can actually see what it is, I'll most likely not buy the KEH one..
Good luck with that.

[Kodachrome25]

Stone...I see a pattern here of you getting lots of good advice but instead of *really* taking it and doing something with it, you turn into this anarchist and the the site gets another "Stoneifesto"....

Folks, I sold Stone for $125 that 150 Symmar MC that I paid $160 for and indeed it would occasionally stick for me at 1 second only once and a great while. But it would make sense it is sticking for you more than me since you live in a humid, low elevation climate and I live in a dry one at 8,000 feet. I have seen that lens sell in better working condition if not with CLA for about double, here is one in worse condition (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-Symmar-S-150mm-5-6-Multi-Coated-View-Lens-4x5-Bargain-NR-/161248511479?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item258b2905f7) than the one I sold you for about the same as you paid, pretty much market value, it was the only lens you seemed to be able to have afforded at the time, so sell it for what you got it for or get a CLA.

I own 8 LF lenses, one bought brand new and one of those is a chrome ring one with no speed issues and I have a black ring copal that sticks a little at 1 second, luck of the draw, they all eventually need maintenance. I have also spent thousands of dollars with KEH over the past 10 years in building up my medium format and part of my LF system, they are my NUMBER ONE CHOICE for used gear.

If you buy the 450mm lens from them ( 8x10? Broke+ Etsy (https://www.etsy.com/shop/StoneNYC)=Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot??? ) and you find it falls short of your expectations they will pay for the shipping back and refund you 100% of what you paid.

You don't have to buy from KEH, not everyone does, but the excuses given are are verging on in-SANE bro, seriously! I have an even more liberal return policy with them because I am a good customer and they are a *KILLER* used equipment dealer.

Is KEH good for LF lenses?

Hell yes they are, end of story...

[StoneNYC]

Stone...I see a pattern here of you getting lots of good advice but instead of *really* taking it and doing something with it, you turn into this anarchist and the the site gets another "Stoneifesto"....

Folks, I sold Stone for $125 that 150 Symmar MC that I paid $160 for and indeed it would occasionally stick for me at 1 second only once and a great while. But it would make sense it is sticking for you more than me since you live in a humid, low elevation climate and I live in a dry one at 8,000 feet. I have seen that lens sell in better working condition if not with CLA for about double, here is one in worse condition (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-Symmar-S-150mm-5-6-Multi-Coated-View-Lens-4x5-Bargain-NR-/161248511479?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item258b2905f7) than the one I sold you for about the same as you paid, pretty much market value, it was the only lens you seemed to be able to have afforded at the time, so sell it for what you got it for or get a CLA.

I own 8 LF lenses, one bought brand new and one of those is a chrome ring one with no speed issues and I have a black ring copal that sticks a little at 1 second, luck of the draw, they all eventually need maintenance. I have also spent thousands of dollars with KEH over the past 10 years in building up my medium format and part of my LF system, they are my NUMBER ONE CHOICE for used gear.

If you buy the 450mm lens from them ( 8x10? Broke+ Etsy (https://www.etsy.com/shop/StoneNYC)=Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot??? ) and you find it falls short of your expectations they will pay for the shipping back and refund you 100% of what you paid.

You don't have to buy from KEH, not everyone does, but the excuses given are are verging on in-SANE bro, seriously! I have an even more liberal return policy with them because I am a good customer and they are a *KILLER* used equipment dealer.

Is KEH good for LF lenses?

Hell yes they are, end of story...

Well I would never have "outed you" for selling me a "bum shutter"

For the record FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW, I am EXTREMELY happy with the lens Dan sold me.

At the time I had only 2 holders, and no camera and no film.

I was slowly preparing for a camera until I could find a good deal (and I did, my toyo45a after the extras I got from it that I didn't need were sold, I got it for $400

Anyway at the time I was (as I always am) persnickety about what I would accept in a body, and so the lens sat unused in a box for 6+ months, I'm sure that didn't help the sticking issue, and as Dan said, my humid climate.

The lens itself is in amazing shape, especially considering how much I know it was used before I got it.

I'm not unhappy with the lens, and I was being flippant when I said I would sell it and get a better shutter, what I meant was I COULD. But I don't need to, unless I completely get out of 4x5, I'm keeping this lens...

Anyway, thanks Dan, I'll take the KEH praise under advisement.

Stoneifesto... I like that... :)

And what's the comment on my etsy page? That it sucks?

[Kodachrome25]

I like you Stone, that is why I outed my self so to speak, it makes the place a little more real I guess...;-)
I think perhaps there may be a way to re-engage with folks on here who have given you sound advice, if you don't agree with them....I don't know, humor them a bit or perhaps dial back the response to a place where it at least seems to be something you are mulling around.

As far as the Etsy page goes, well that all depends on how serious you are about selling work. If it is a little more than a hobby that your other photo business can absorb as you explore it, then explore it, it's just a hobby.
But if you want to actually start cranking out work that that no matter what you shot it on, 4x5, 8x10, iPhone 5s or wet plate and have it make people stare and then buy....brother, you have *got* to make the content and sheer mastery of that image count in a way that nearly makes the tools irrelevent.

I just think all this "Arms Building" is distracting you from the real task and is going to cost you more than just a lot more cash. We no longer live in an age where one can impress to the point of a check being signed with a big camera, you need photographs that show big ideas and big talent.

If it's a hobby, knock your self out, have fun. But if not, you gotta up your game...

But on topic, KEH is as solid a bet as it gets, don't BS your self around that fact.

[StoneNYC]

I like you Stone, that is why I outed my self so to speak, it makes the place a little more real I guess...;-)
I think perhaps there may be a way to re-engage with folks on here who have given you sound advice, if you don't agree with them....I don't know, humor them a bit or perhaps dial back the response to a place where it at least seems to be something you are mulling around.

As far as the Etsy page goes, well that all depends on how serious you are about selling work. If it is a little more than a hobby that your other photo business can absorb as you explore it, then explore it, it's just a hobby.
But if you want to actually start cranking out work that that no matter what you shot it on, 4x5, 8x10, iPhone 5s or wet plate and have it make people stare and then buy....brother, you have *got* to make the content and sheer mastery of that image count in a way that nearly makes the tools irrelevent.

I just think all this "Arms Building" is distracting you from the real task and is going to cost you more than just a lot more cash. We no longer live in an age where one can impress to the point of a check being signed with a big camera, you need photographs that show big ideas and big talent.

If it's a hobby, knock your self out, have fun. But if not, you gotta up your game...

But on topic, KEH is as solid a bet as it gets, don't BS your self around that fact.

That was a tactful way of saying my work sucks... Haha!

Such is life...

You're right, from a financial standpoint it's a hobby, I've only sold a few dozen prints, mostly the DC subway and the lego Star Wars guy "center for storm troopers that can't read good" :)

Such is life, a few landscapes but sadly my cityscapes and skyscapes and macro sell more.

I support all this with other photo work, lots of boudoir modeling stuff, some digital, some film.

I don't live on it, I could if I wanted to sleep in a tent and shoot only digital and eat only ramen ;)

someday hopefully it will sell more, and I will be better, but I'm also not "out there" in terms of galleries etc, and I know that's a big fault of mine... Fear...

Thanks Dan, anyway I'll take all this stuff under advisement about KEH, thanks.

[jnantz]

etsy i thought only allowed hand crafted items ...
christian nze sells ( or sold ) some of his alt process images there
and they were stunners .. and made by hand ..

i didnt know that in this day and age lab prints count as hand crafted ..

good luck with your lens and image sales stone...
if you want another venue to sell through look into imagekind.
ive been with them for years, sold a bunch through them (40x60 to very small)
and cant complain one bit ...

[Kodachrome25]

Stone, if I did not think you had it in you, I would not take the time to give you a nudge. Every few years I go out to NYC to visit a few friends of mine who are about as famous and talented as it gets and attend workshops that usually have a portfolio review component, I pay for this "Tough Love", it helps keep me centered and focused. Let's just say I make a killer living at this photo thing but I personally, am no where near where I want my work to be, so I am restless for immense creative growth.

Uploading photos in the galleries to any site, including this one is usually a sure fire way to get what many enthusiasts seek and that is some form of praise for their work, the time they put in and money spent. It is an epidemic of mutual praise circles that is truly lowering the bar of what people actually think is a *Good* photograph. I am not saying there is not some great work out there because there is, this site included. I am saying that I see a lot of Pom-Pom tossing cheerleading in terms of centering one's entire craft around gear and I kind of see this aspiring to 8x10 as just that and I see it literally as a big distraction. I don't really meld well with photo forums because I am not really comfortable with gear posturing and people's status quo with their own output and how there is never any truthful critique.

Good luck with it regardless of capacity you might use it, you know I have to unplug now and get serious about my task, hence my leaving APUG permanently....

Good luck and good light...

[StoneNYC]

Stone, if I did not think you had it in you, I would not take the time to give you a nudge. Every few years I go out to NYC to visit a few friends of mine who are about as famous and talented as it gets and attend workshops that usually have a portfolio review component, I pay for this "Tough Love", it helps keep me centered and focused. Let's just say I make a killer living at this photo thing but I personally, am no where near where I want my work to be, so I am restless for immense creative growth.

Uploading photos in the galleries to any site, including this one is usually a sure fire way to get what many enthusiasts seek and that is some form of praise for their work, the time they put in and money spent. It is an epidemic of mutual praise circles that is truly lowering the bar of what people actually think is a *Good* photograph. I am not saying there is not some great work out there because there is, this site included. I am saying that I see a lot of Pom-Pom tossing cheerleading in terms of centering one's entire craft around gear and I kind of see this aspiring to 8x10 as just that and I see it literally as a big distraction. I don't really meld well with photo forums because I am not really comfortable with gear posturing and people's status quo with their own output and how there is never any truthful critique.

Good luck with it regardless of capacity you might use it, you know I have to unplug now and get serious about my task, hence my leaving APUG permanently....

Good luck and good light...

;)

[Alan Gales]

Stone, if I did not think you had it in you, I would not take the time to give you a nudge. Every few years I go out to NYC to visit a few friends of mine who are about as famous and talented as it gets and attend workshops that usually have a portfolio review component, I pay for this "Tough Love", it helps keep me centered and focused. Let's just say I make a killer living at this photo thing but I personally, am no where near where I want my work to be, so I am restless for immense creative growth.

Uploading photos in the galleries to any site, including this one is usually a sure fire way to get what many enthusiasts seek and that is some form of praise for their work, the time they put in and money spent. It is an epidemic of mutual praise circles that is truly lowering the bar of what people actually think is a *Good* photograph. I am not saying there is not some great work out there because there is, this site included. I am saying that I see a lot of Pom-Pom tossing cheerleading in terms of centering one's entire craft around gear and I kind of see this aspiring to 8x10 as just that and I see it literally as a big distraction. I don't really meld well with photo forums because I am not really comfortable with gear posturing and people's status quo with their own output and how there is never any truthful critique.

Good luck with it regardless of capacity you might use it, you know I have to unplug now and get serious about my task, hence my leaving APUG permanently....

Good luck and good light...

+1 Very well said.

[john borrelli]

OK, here I go again.

Let me just say at the outset that I have no ill will toward KEH. Over a very long span of time in the photo hobby, I have probably made over twenty purchases from them, unfortunately I have sent back about a third of those purchases at my expense, and I have never bought the bargain level, the majority were excellent, excellent plus or above. I have used a variety of cameras over the years and purchased a variety of used equipment from places like B and H, Adorama, MPEX, Badger and others including locally Hunts and EP Levine. I am more a gear person and less an artist perhaps, and so I thought this would be a thread I could contribute to...

I bought my first LF camera from KEH a Calumet Cadet. I took the camera into a dark room, shined a flashlight through it, the bellows had so many pinholes I thought I was viewing constellations at night. As I was looking for a camera and not a planetarium, I sent the Cadet back.

Next up a Tachihara 4X5, I thought I would give KEH a second chance and the thought of a light field camera I could use everyday was appealing, instead what I received was I'm guessing, the original Tachihara. It was the oldest looking camera outside of a museum I had ever seen and it was pricey, for a camera that was only about $700 new at the time, so back the first edition went, again at my expense.

I have purchased four LF lenses from KEH. One I kept the others went back. For example, I purchased a 300mm f9 Nikon lens, the newer version with an all black shutter, not the older Q version. I unscrewed the front and rear lens cells looked at the shutter and the shutter was full of sand. I'm not talking about a grain or two either, I am talking photographing sand dunes in the Sahara kind of sand. Some LFers might have kept the lens but for me paying almost $500.00 for a lens that was selling brand new at the time between $600 to $700 (sans the sand) didn't add up, so back it went and as always, at my expense.

I have read comments from people on this forum that have sounded like they purchased bargain rated equipment from KEH and received the sharpest most beautiful looking lens perhaps delivered to them by the ghost of Carl Zeiss himself. All, I'm saying is though I would purchase from KEH again, my experiences with them have been generously speaking only average, and yes as I have previously commented, I find their business model frustrating and others may too.

[greenbank]

Uploading photos in the galleries to any site, including this one is usually a sure fire way to get what many enthusiasts seek and that is some form of praise for their work, the time they put in and money spent. It is an epidemic of mutual praise circles that is truly lowering the bar of what people actually think is a *Good* photograph. I am not saying there is not some great work out there because there is, this site included. I am saying that I see a lot of Pom-Pom tossing cheerleading in terms of centering one's entire craft around gear and I kind of see this aspiring to 8x10 as just that and I see it literally as a big distraction. I don't really meld well with photo forums because I am not really comfortable with gear posturing and people's status quo with their own output and how there is never any truthful critique.


Agree up to a point - serious and truthful critique is important in any photographer's development; and perhaps there isn't enough of it even on this forum.

However, I have to say that I personally, as a newbie to LF, am gaining useful info from some of the "gear posturing" - particularly from threads like the ones showing photographers with their cameras. On here, shots of bearded chaps standing on a rock in front of a dramatic vista are common enough; but what I'm seeing is the way they stand, how they work with/under the dark-cloth, how and where they've positioned the camera, and so on. Even the pics of people fumbling with their dark-slides (20x24!) are informative to me. These are aspects you don't see in the books, and I still have everything to learn in LF after a long time in SF and MF with SLRs.

This is a whole new way of working for me, and until I'm familiar with my new LF camera (Omega 45C) I will continue to watch carefully how the experienced types go about it. I also think that to some extent (no more than that) it's in the nature of LF to be more of a gear-head - if only in the sense of being more aware of, and enjoying, the more traditional aspects of photography as a craft. And, let's face it, those wooden field cameras are often objects of beauty and fascination in themselves; I wouldn't want one myself, but I can understand the pride and delight (as an integral part of their photography) of those who do have them.

Also - part of the problem is some people's inability to verbalise their critical responses. They like or don't like a photo, but they don't have the words, or perhaps the expertise, to say exactly why. In cases like this, it's difficult to get beyond the "Ooh, nice light!" level of comment; and of course that's not "criticism" in any useful sense. But it may well be the best the commenter can do - we are, after all, photographers rather than aesthetic critics!

So my response is: let's have both. Let's have lots of serious, well-informed and constructive criticism without the cheerleading; and let's also have pictures of cameras - particularly of photographers with their cameras.

Sorry this is off thread - but I felt it needed to be said.

[Alan Gales]

Serious well-informed criticism without the cheerleading is great if that is what you seek. However, it is not for everyone. I have come to the conclusion that it is best given by someone in person whom you trust their judgement.

I love this forum and there are a lot of great people on here but I just don't know if forums are a good place for critiques. When you write things down in a forum there is just too much room for misunderstanding.

Of course all the "atta boys" on forums are not productive either. I don't know what the best answer is.

[jp]

Gear is fun to talk about. As far as image sharing, critique is a skill we don't all have. Sometimes I think it works better as a face to face back and forth, but I'm adventerous enough try to give and receive it via the Internet.

The biggest thing I get out of image sharing, even if 90% of the photos don't interest me, is once in a while something is shared that inspires me to up my game. Same things happens with print exchanges. I'm not competitive, but if someone makes seriously inspiring images using gear I have, it is motivating. I participate largely to be inspired and lesser to receive praise or critique. There are highly skilled photographers who visit here and don't post images; perhaps for business or privacy reasons, others because they are better photographers than scanner operators / social media experts. I post frequently as I get breaks at work or get stuck on a long boring phone call at work needing some mental stimulation, or at home instead of television or waiting for some film to wash or the scanner to do it's thing.

[StoneNYC]

I think it's helpful if you use your best judgement...

Like, say you don't often get many replies but on one piece you do, that helps you know that one is interesting and should be investigated further, perhaps that's the headliner image of a show etc, or one you take more time to print properly or try and sell more often (hang more often) etc.

And one with no comments at all is probably less interesting. Sometimes things we like because we have some connection to it, don't always connect with out viewers. But knowing which do really does help I think.

Even when you're the type of person to get lots of like comments, you can tell when you get EXTRA that that piece is even better.

It's not a guarantee but it helps give you a sense of what's what...I think...


Serious well-informed criticism without the cheerleading is great if that is what you seek. However, it is not for everyone. I have come to the conclusion that it is best given by someone in person whom you trust their judgement.

I love this forum and there are a lot of great people on here but I just don't know if forums are a good place for critiques. When you write things down in a forum there is just too much room for misunderstanding.

Of course all the "atta boys" on forums are not productive either. I don't know what the best answer is.

[Jac@stafford.net]

KEH evaluates lenses by their appearance, not performance. That is truly good enough, and they have a generous and fair return policy.

I received a Leica flash from them described as EX-. It was still in the original sealed packaging. The reason for EX-minus? The battery was missing. Result: half retail.

KEH rules!

[StoneNYC]

Doesn't matter, it's gone and I have no money lol. Thanks.

[evan clarke]

Don't buy bgn, buy the good ones..I have mad around 50 purchases by now, all exc or + and they all look like new.

[StoneNYC]

Don't buy bgn, buy the good ones..I have mad around 50 purchases by now, all exc or + and they all look like new.

Yes for the 450 and 600 C I want a mint-type lens, I'll pay for it to a degree, but I don't want to hit the thousand dollar mark if I can help it. The 300mm was $600 for me from a member, it was absolutely perfect, came with the original box and front and rear caps. Hoping I can stay in that range of quality and price.

[jbenedict]

Don't buy bgn, buy the good ones..I have mad around 50 purchases by now, all exc or + and they all look like new.

I generally only buy the BGN stuff- I have had little wrong with them and usually cannot see why the item was rated BGN.

[jnantz]

I generally only buy the BGN stuff- I have had little wrong with them and usually cannot see why the item was rated BGN.

i've only bought bargain stuff from them for about 20 years
some has come new in the box, still shrinkwrapped.

[greenbank]

My experience with Keh seems to be the usual one - their ratings are reliable (except that BGN goods can be a bit pot-luck, which they make clear in their rating guide), and their service is excellent. Their prices are generally good too: they aren't the cheapest, but they certainly aren't the most expensive either, and I've found that when they set a price it does seem to match or beat the values elsewhere. When you throw in their excellent service (quick response, return guarantee, etc.) that does represent good value. And if you have any doubts about an item, you can call them and get a sensible response, which is not always the case with sellers in other areas.

The trick is to read their item descriptions carefully, because these are exact. You get what it says, no more and no less; a "Mamiya RB67 body" is a body only, no lens, no caps, no film back, no waist-level finder (though I'd expect to get the focusing screen). With lenses, if caps are included in the price, the description always says "with caps" - otherwise you need to buy them separately, and they would then come separately bagged rather than slipped on the lens.

My only niggle with Kehs has been their use of FedEx for smaller items. FedEx seems to automatically charge import duty on behalf of Customs, even on items which come under the exemption limit, which can add a significant amount to the cost outside the USA. However, even factoring that in, the delivered price of things like lenses represents a fair price here when compared to local vendors. Quite frankly, when one considers the risks involved in purchasing on fleabay, Kehs are well worth the (sometimes) slightly higher cost.

[Shootar401]

KEH evaluates lenses by their appearance, not performance. That is truly good enough, and they have a generous and fair return policy.


Not true, There was an interview done with KEH lot too long ago and they stated they check both physical looks and operation.

I picked up a Nikon F3 from them 4 months ago for my girlfriend. It was listed as BGN, but when I opened up the box it looked fresh from the factory, not a scratch on it. Foam is beautiful, and the curtain is wrinkle free. The only issue I have found it that the cover for the motor drive was missing as well as the plastic screw on protectors for the PC socket.

I also had a case where I ordered a BGN RZ67 non-metered Prism and received a 2nd model metered Prism in EX condition.

[StoneNYC]

Not true, There was an interview done with KEH lot too long ago and they stated they check both physical looks and operation.

I picked up a Nikon F3 from them 4 months ago for my girlfriend. It was listed as BGN, but when I opened up the box it looked fresh from the factory, not a scratch on it. Foam is beautiful, and the curtain is wrinkle free. The only issue I have found it that the cover for the motor drive was missing as well as the plastic screw on protectors for the PC socket.

I also had a case where I ordered a BGN RZ67 non-metered Prism and received a 2nd model metered Prism in EX condition.

You do realize that your statements contradict each other right? You stated that they both look at and inspect the items, if they did that properly, they certainly wouldn't be sending you the wrong item....

[Drew Wiley]

I got quite a break on a lens from them once that was marked down due to a minor scratch on the integral lens hood. It took me awhile to even notice it. Anyone
else would have called that lens Mint.

[gnuyork]

Yep. I bought two Rodenstock lenses from KEH that look like they were brand new. At the time, the prices were very reasonable. I also purchased a Leica Summicron - same deal, flawless, could have been brand new for all I knew.

It's been many years since I have purchased any lenses there, but if I need more that's the first place I would look.

[Leigh]

You do realize that your statements contradict each other right? You stated that they both look at and inspect the items, if they did that properly, they certainly wouldn't be sending you the wrong item....
They didn't send the "wrong" item.

If they only have one of an item in stock, but two people check on it and order it, they will substitute a higher-grade item rather than rejecting the second order. That's standard practice, as stated in their order guidelines.

Their order system is not integrated well with their inventory. It only seems to check when you click on the item.

- Leigh

[StoneNYC]

They didn't send the "wrong" item.

If they only have one of an item in stock, but two people check on it and order it, they will substitute a higher-grade item rather than rejecting the second order. That's standard practice, as stated in their order guidelines.

Their order system is not integrated well with their inventory. It only seems to check when you click on the item.

- Leigh

So if I order a 600mm lens and they run out they will send me a 1200mm lens? LOL :)

[Leigh]

So if I order a 600mm lens and they run out they will send me a 1200mm lens? LOL :)
Yep.

But they'll cut it in half first.

Your choice... front or rear.

Regarding the RZ prism: The later one should be fully compatible with the RZ67 camera, so a valid substitute.
If the buyer doesn't wish to use the built-in metering, nothing says he has to. He needn't even install a battery.

- Leigh

[BrianShaw]

Yep.

But they'll cut it in half first.

Your choice... front or rear.
...

I'd rather a choice of left vs right.

[Leigh]

I'd rather a choice of left vs right.
You need to state that in the "special instructions" box.

- Leigh

[BPhoto]

I will never do business with KEH again after two used lenses purchased from them failed within the first year. You will also make more money selling your used gear at a yard sale than to them! Do not make the same mistake I did! It will just cost you more in the long run. Stay clear of KEH!

[Leigh]

And you're a shill for whom???
Posting the same information in two threads regarding KEH, you could hardly be considered objective.
And neither was an active thread. You had to search for them.

It's used equipment. Used gear fails. You probably ordered BGN or UGL.

Fortunately there's a whole bunch of folks here who disagree with you.

As for quotes...
Nobody pays decent money for used equipment. You'll get more selling it here.

- Leigh

[BPhoto]

I have purchased two used lenses from KEH and both failed within the first year. With one lens the focus motor went out and the other received an error message when mounted on my camera. I had to eat the cost of both of those lens and buy new ones. KEH ended up costing me 4X as much. It just was not worth the effort. We live and learn.

I think it is a better idea to buy lenses refurbished from the manufacture or an authorized dealer. At least they offer some sort of protection against normal wear and tear. Canon sells there refurbished with a one year warranty for about the same price KEH sells them for without a warranty.

[Leigh]

And you're a shill for whom???
Posting the same information in two threads regarding KEH, you could hardly be considered objective.
And neither was an active thread. You had to search for them.

It's used equipment. Used gear fails. You probably ordered BGN or UGL.

Fortunately there's a whole bunch of folks here who disagree with you.

As for quotes...
Nobody pays decent money for used equipment. You'll get more selling it here.

- Leigh

[Jim Noel]

I will never do business with KEH again after two used lenses purchased from them failed within the first year. You will also make more money selling your used gear at a yard sale than to them! Do not make the same mistake I did! It will just cost you more in the long run. Stay clear of KEH!
How long do you expect them to guarantee a used shutter, Life? Who knows want misuse you put it to.

[Dan Fromm]

What Leigh said.

What Leigh didn't say is that KEH has a no-questions asked return policy. He called BPhoto a shill. I call BPhoto an out-and-out liar.

Interesting that a large format lens has a focus motor and that large format cameras have electronics that gives error messages when a dud lens is mounted. My gear dates from the dark ages but I didn't think it was that different from current production.

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, see post #39 in http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?111685-KEH-good-source-for-used-lenses/page4

[Tin Can]

+1

Love KEH!

[ImSoNegative]

i have never had any issues with keh with LF gear or any other, my experience with them has been top notch, most of the lenses i have bought from them have been bargain grade. they are very strict on there grading system so if you try to sell to them unless your gear is practically new you will probably get your feelings hurt.

[ImSoNegative]

i have never ordered ugly grade but i do know others that have and said they fixed them up and had very little money in it at all. i dont live far from keh and i have been to there warehouse/office a few times to pick up some gear, nice folks

[ImSoNegative]

oh yes i recently ordered a cambo c2n 6x7 back from them bgn grade for 60.00, when i got recieved the item it was the c2n 6x9 back that was rated exe+, i called them and told them of there mistake and the guy on the phone asked me if i was happy with it and i said yes i will take a 6x9 back that looks brand new for 60.00, he said well we will just let sleeping dogs lye and happy early birthday lol.

[BPhoto]

KEH is great, and their ratings as noted are in most cases conservative by a large margin. Even those UGLY items sometimes come in in super nice condition, and if they are not working they are replaced with zero hassle.

That said, what they offer as buying prices is often funny, or might even be offensive to some. Just use their site to calculate how much they might pay for a mamiya 7 with a lens. This might not be the case with newer/digital gear, i have not checked.

I've bought three item from KEH and 2 out of three stopped working within a year.

[BPhoto]

I am a professional graphic artist and a professional photographer. Which means I make 100% of my income by doing those two functions. As far as what I ordered from KEH and the ratings of the items were EX on two lenses and one was EX+ on the 2X converter (What a very confusing rating system too). I think KEH sucks! The products I purchased from KEH broke under normal wear and tear, I had bad customer service, and I will never use them again. People can disagree with me all they want and those same people can continue to buy used equipment from KEH. I have high standards and I prefer the lenses I purchase to be covered by a warranty from the manufacture. Luckily, I can afford to buy new directly from authorized dealers. Without people like me, you wouldn't be able to buy used gear from places like KEH. All I am saying is that if you buy refurbished Canon lens from Canon, which are almost the same price as KEH, you get a full one year warranty. That may be worth the few extra dollars. Is there something wrong with that?

[djdister]

So as they say, YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY. The answer may be, KEH has good stuff for used Large Format gear, but not so good stuff for used DSLR gear. It happens, so move on, cut the bitching and lock this thread!

[Deval]

Bphoto, I've had a great experience with KEH with the many lenses and other accessories I've bought from them, but I'm sure like anything, you will run into a less than perfect experience here and there.

Your posts honestly seem directly placed by a competitor of KEH, like BHphoto or Adorama or something of that nature. Many of the items on KEH cannot be obtained new because they aren't made anymore...not even refurbished. I'm not sure how many people come to this specific forum looking for advice of used canon gear, even though many of us carry small formats. Could you please point us to your website or some of your work if you don't mind...you are a professional after all.

I'm sure we'd like to properly welcome you to forum, but you can see how that could difficult given that you are new with 4 posts all specifically aimed against KEH and pointing us to buy from an authorized dealer. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll keep it in mind the next time I buy from them. The vast majority of people that I know have had very positive experiences from them.

[Leigh]

I am a professional graphic artist and a professional photographer.
Where are you located?

- Leigh

[alpenhause]

KEH is one of the best! "F" The Rest!

Yep, I would not waste my time trying to sell something to them, they pay little to nothing for the stuff they sell.

Annually I purchase over $3000 worth of large format lenses from 105mm to 150mm to fit to the custom Polaroid 110B/900 based 4x5 cameras I build, all the lenses have been fabulous even the ones graded as "Ugly"

KEH is THE first place I look when a large format lens is needed, ebay purchases can be problematical.

Picked up a 135mm f3.5 Schneider Xenotar Linhof Select for $250 a year or two ago and a rare 152mm f3.5 Komura 4x5 format lens for $250, both lenses were in great condition and are now being used on a 110B 4x5 and a 110B/900 Version 4x5 camera, makes you wonder who sold these two lenses to KEH and what KEH ultimately paid for these two rare lenses.

[Ken Lee]

I merged 2 threads on this topic. There is now only one.

[StoneNYC]

I want to point out to everyone the question posed by me and the other OP (because of the merge) was "is KEH good from your experience".

This means all who have purchased from them should be heard, just because you had a good experience doesn't mean everyone has, and both sides are valid, I find it distracting when people come on yelling at this guy who did NOT have a good experience because that's who I want to hear from so I don't go through the same thing or so I can know what a possible outcome would be from a bad experience, IE do they stand behind their product or throw their hands up and say "sorry for your bad luck" so everyone stop bashing the people sharing their bad experiences because their viewpoints are valid and important...

[Leigh]

Hi Stone,

Of course people will have problems with any vendor. That's life.

But when somebody otherwise unknown to us seeks out threads, including old ones, for the sole purpose of bashing a vendor, that person's motives and truthfulness come into question, and for good reason.

- Leigh

[Jmarmck]

Bought two Nikon batteries and charger. I knew the batteries needed to be re-celled when I bought the set. Good price and quick shipping. It was a lot less than some of the other lesser systems available. I also bought a lens without any issues, and like most have said, it was in better condition that stated.

[Tin Can]

Maybe, I'm the bad guy. I sold a high end DSLR to KEH, as I didn't want to sell it directly to anyone. It was not damaged in any way, but I sure didn't like it. I gladly took a big loss.

I do the same with FOID.

Buy high, sell low, the secret of any hobby...

[BPhoto]

Where are you located?

- Leigh

Washington, DC

[BPhoto]

My post is directed at KEH. That is what the thread is about. I had a bad experience with items that I purchased and bad customer service from KEH. I do not like them and the experience made me realized that since I can afford not to buy second hand gear it is silly for me to chance the headache and hassel of equipment failure. If my equipment does fail, I feel better knowing it is covered and at least will be fixed or replaced my the manufacturer. It is also the same reason I have insurance coverage on my equipment. It is about piece of mind. I think KEH sucks, sue me.

[BrianShaw]

I've found KEH to be better than some other sellers of old gear. In the end it is all old equyipment and subject to the effects of age. KEH just happens to make it easier to "undo a deal" if one inspects and doesn't like what they got.

[djdister]

My post is directed at KEH. That is what the thread is about. I had a bad experience with items that I purchased and bad customer service from KEH. I do not like them and the experience made me realized that since I can afford not to buy second hand gear it is silly for me to chance the headache and hassel of equipment failure. If my equipment does fail, I feel better knowing it is covered and at least will be fixed or replaced my the manufacturer. It is also the same reason I have insurance coverage on my equipment. It is about piece of mind. I think KEH sucks, sue me.

NOTED. So given that your bashing of one particular vendor is complete and with little agreement, I will ask for the SECOND time that this thread be locked by the Moderator before it devolves into a flame war. I will also note that this thread is in the Gear forum and not in the proper buyer/seller advisories forum. Just sayin'

[Corran]

Let him have his say. I doubt it's going to change anyone's mind.

As noted earlier, it's hardly relevant to this forum anyway, with hardly any LF lenses being manufactured anymore.

[Ken Lee]

Enough healthy discussion. Thread closed. Have a nice day. :)