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unityofsaints
4-Mar-2014, 12:42
Hi,

First post and first time shooting 4x5 (Sinar F1). I've just made my first couple of attempts at developing and it's gone horribly wrong :(

I've never developed film before and am coming from a DSLR.

Basically, I attempted to develop four sheets of expired Ilford Delta 400 and I ended up with nothing, thought the film was screwed and then shot a brand new sheet of FP4 and got the same result. The 4 Delta 400 shots were basically bracketed by the way, so if I'm significantly off exposure-wise at any point in the development process there's a good chance I would have gotten something back anyway.

By nothing, I mean absolutely nothing! I ended up with a clear, pinkish sheet of plasticky stuff. Not a trace of anything left on it.

What's the most likely source of my error? I expected my first attempts to be out of focus, massively under/overdeveloped, scratched etc. but I wasn't prepared for this. Some more info:

1. The film came from two different holders so I don't think they're leaky - they look in good condition and anyway, if there's a leak, only part of the film would be screwed, right?
2. I've checked the bellows/shutter/back for light leaks and they seem ok. I used this Sinar "automatic shutter closing mechanism when film back is inserted" (very technical term, I know :p) each of the times and also checked the little red pin visually before taking out the darkslide.
3. My metering mightn't be perfect as I'm using a combination of a digital P+S and a light meter app on my phone but surely I can't be this far off? I mean even at 4-5 stops off you'd still see something on the film, right?

I was very careful about the darkness of the room I was in. I don't think that was the source of the issues.

I kept my development process simple:
1. Tetenal Ultrafin T-Plus developer, the right amount of time using the manufacturer's tables.
2. Stop bath made up of 1% acetic acid solution in water. Minimum of 3 mins.
3. Ilford Rapid Fixer mixed at 1+4. Minimum of 3 mins.
4. Obviously more steps come after this but I switched on the light at this point and had nothing so stopped here.

Any suggestions? I really need some words of advice in this matter. I've already wasted a lot of film and chemicals but am prepared to give it another go in a heartbeat with fresh batches of everything if I get some insightful replies.

Thanks in advance!

djdister
4-Mar-2014, 12:51
The film received no exposure at all. So your concerns about leaky film holders, leaky bellows and accidental exposure are all in the wrong direction. If you had those problems, your film would be solid black, not clear. Assuming your chemicals were mixed properly and used in the right sequence, then you did not expose the film at all. Something in your exposure workflow was not working - shutter did not open at all, dark slide was not pulled for exposure, or etc. Shooting 4x5 film from using a DSLR is a big leap - and while reading the books is good, pure book learning does not adequately prepare one for the mechanical process of shooting large format. Polaroid was good for this - at least you knew you were recording an image within a minute or two. Buddy up with someone who is experienced, and/or re-read the steps of using the camera for exposing film. Good luck!

MIke Sherck
4-Mar-2014, 12:57
Light leaks, either from the holder or the camera back or bellows, would leave dark patches or streaks on the film after developing. If the film is clear, light leaks are not your problem.

Clear film means that no light hit it. Even gross underexposure would leave a faint image after processing. It's unlikely that your metering is so far off that it would leave the film clear. Possible, yes, but unlikely.

Review your picture taking process. You compose on the ground glass, then close the shutter. Fire the shutter a couple of times, any aperture and shutter speed. Looking at the ground glass under the focusing cloth when firing the shutter, you ought to be able to see a flash of light when the shutter fires. If not, open aperture and slow shutter speed and fire again. Still can't see anything? Broken shutter or solid obstruction inside the bellows -- it ought to be a great dark empty space in there. Measure/calculate exposure and set aperture and shutter speed, then trip the shutter a couple of times. Look into the lens; you ought to be able to see the shutter open and close. If not, there's your problem. Set shutter and insert film holder. Remove dark slide. Fire shutter, replace dark slide.

You ought to get some sort of image; if not either the shutter isn't opening or you've inserted the film backwards in the film holder. When loading film into the holder, I hold the empty film holder in my left hand, the end where the film will be inserted facing to the right and the empty side of the holder, where I'm going to insert the film, facing upwards. The film is in my right hand and the notch code is at the bottom of the right edge of the film. In this position the film's emulsion side is facing upwards and when I slide it into the film holder it will be facing outwards, toward the dark slide.

|------------|
|.................|
|.................| <== horrible ASCII drawing of a sheet of film
|.................|
|.................< <== Notch code
|-------------

I hope that makes sense and helps!

Mike

unityofsaints
4-Mar-2014, 13:02
The film received no exposure at all.


Interesting - I loaded the film like shown here: http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm, with the notches at the bottom right of the film holder. Also, wouldn't I still see something if the film was the wrong way around? I pulled the darkslide and I know my shutter works - I mean I've test-fired it, know the red pin comes up when it opens etc.

Large format is near extinct where I live - buddying up would be great but is not (yet) practical for me.

djdister
4-Mar-2014, 13:12
If you loaded the film as shown, then yes, it was loaded correctly. You should have felt the notches in the upper right corner with your finger as you inserted it into the holder (which is upside down).
111551

I like Mike's suggestion of firing the shutter a time or two without a holder in and observe the flash of light on the ground glass. And make sure you pull the dark slide all the way out of the holder to expose the film. Then flip the dark slide around and reinsert after exposing the film.

If those don't do it, re-examine your chemicals again. Clear film could happen if you ran it through the Fixer first...

Lenny Eiger
4-Mar-2014, 13:33
Just to clarify what others have said... it can only be 1 of 2 things. Either you didn't pull the dark slide, or the shutter didn't open.

On second thought, I suppose the shutter could have opened an exposure so far away, like a 8,000 of a sec when the exposure should be in the 30 second range. That might no even do it...

OK, a third possibility is that someone gave you a box of film that was already developed, and had nothing on it.

A fourth, what Dan said, you put things in the fixer first...

Can't think of anything else. First two are most likely...



Lenny

Mark Woods
4-Mar-2014, 13:54
If you put the film with the notches on the lower right had side, you put the film in with the back facing the lens. Look at the photo that Dan posted. If you notice, the notches are in the upper right of the film. The notches could be at the lower left.

unityofsaints
4-Mar-2014, 14:34
Well, my first successful attempt is just chilling in the post-fixer bath! Thanks for the suggestions, I actually did mix up developer and fixer... it's the first time I'm handling trays of liquid in the dark and they got mixed up somewhere along the way, honest mistake...

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions! In case anyone is wondering, I don't see anything obvious wrong with the negative - that seems to have been my only big problem in the process :D

Darin Boville
4-Mar-2014, 14:36
Just to underline Lenny's post, check three things. Shutter, darkslide, fix. It's one of those.

1) Shutter. Take the lens board off with the lens attached. Set the lens and cock the shutter. Look through the lens and fire it, with a bright area behind the lens so you can see any light that comes through the lens. Is it firing--do you see a flash of light when it fires?

2) Darkslide. Since this is your first time here's an error than can be easily made--and it comes in two parts. A) Are you really sure the darkslide was out when you fired the camera? B) Are you really sure you pulled out the correct darkslide--there are two. Did you pull out the one facing the interior of the camera and not the one facing the groundglass? (Edit: Duh, that would fog the film...)

3) Fix. The fix goes after the developer and stop bath. It dissolves away all the undeveloped silver in the negative. So it you put it first, *all* of the silver is undeveloped and it will *all* dissolve away leaving nothing but clear film. When you add developer later, there is nothing left to develop. Developer goes before fix. (And while we are here--did you have any trouble mixing the developer? We want to make sure it is good.)

I'm guessing you fixed first.

--Darin

Darin Boville
4-Mar-2014, 14:37
Looks like we cross posted--best of luck and don't be afraid to ask questions along the way.

--Darin

Pete Watkins
4-Mar-2014, 15:02
Meet us halfway, where the hell are you located? It always helps to know.
Pete

IanG
4-Mar-2014, 15:06
Large format is near extinct where I live - buddying up would be great but is not (yet) practical for me.

If you tells us where you live maybe someone can help you.

It's not that small a world, by chance I met a member here from another country yesterday. Turned out I'd made him focus screens as well :D

Ian

unityofsaints
4-Mar-2014, 15:27
If you tells us where you live maybe someone can help you.

It's not that small a world, by chance I met a member here from another country yesterday. Turned out I'd made him focus screens as well :D

Ian

Near Munich. Looks like mostly U.K. and U.S.-based folks on here.

Leigh
4-Mar-2014, 16:12
Hi, and welcome aboard.

We have a number of members from Germany, but they don't tend to be as active as some from other countries.

We certainly welcome everybody with interest in large format.

- Leigh

Michael E
4-Mar-2014, 17:09
Leipzig is in Germany, but not anywhere near Munich - sorry! Try to contact "megapickle1", he is located in Munich. I'll send you a PM with his adress.

Best,

Michael

MIke Sherck
4-Mar-2014, 19:52
that seems to have been my only big problem in the process :D

OMG, you shouldn't have said that!!! There are more ways to screw things up with large format than you would believe -- there was a thread on that subject, years ago. Sooner or later you'll have a list of mistakes you've made yourself. Best of luck to you and I'm glad that you figured this one out!

Mike

Regular Rod
5-Mar-2014, 01:42
Well, my first successful attempt is just chilling in the post-fixer bath! Thanks for the suggestions, I actually did mix up developer and fixer... it's the first time I'm handling trays of liquid in the dark and they got mixed up somewhere along the way, honest mistake...

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions! In case anyone is wondering, I don't see anything obvious wrong with the negative - that seems to have been my only big problem in the process :D

What a relief...

Now you can crack on and make some photographs!

:D
RR

Doremus Scudder
5-Mar-2014, 05:20
unity;

You seem to be on the right track. There's lots to learn, but none of it is complicated. The thing that overwhelms some people coming from digital (or point-and-shoot) is the sheer amount of things you have to know and keep in your head. That just takes time, so don't give up.

FWIW, I am completely self-taught as a photographer. Everything I know has come from reading and looking at illustrations. I never had a class and only one, rather "esoteric" workshop: from a Minor White student who talked more about Zen than photography; interesting and helpful, but not nuts and bolts by any means.

With all the info available on this forum and APUG.org as well as the LF home page and the numerous hard-copy resources (i.e., books) available, you can, if you like or have to, do it yourself.

A note on tray processing: tray processing gets a lot of bad press because it takes a bit of skill, practice and physical coordination to master. Some don't have the patience (or maybe not the dexterity) and give up. I encourage you to keep at it before making a final decision. I find tray developing the easiest, most economical, most flexible and, most important, most even developing method. Plus, it requires very little in the way of equipment :)

Best, and keep posting your questions as you go!

Doremus

unityofsaints
5-Mar-2014, 08:43
unity;

A note on tray processing: tray processing gets a lot of bad press because it takes a bit of skill, practice and physical coordination to master. Some don't have the patience (or maybe not the dexterity) and give up. I encourage you to keep at it before making a final decision. I find tray developing the easiest, most economical, most flexible and, most important, most even developing method. Plus, it requires very little in the way of equipment :)

Best, and keep posting your questions as you go!

Doremus

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Well, as early on as it is, tray processing seems fine. I don't feel like spending money on drums or tanks, I'd rather use that for glass and film! I have a question: I just received a shipment of used film holders and some had some film in it, is anyone familiar with this notch code?

111592

It's exposed so it's just out of curiosity, I'd like to know what the previous owner of the holders was up to ;)

Mark Stahlke
5-Mar-2014, 10:01
The notch codes on your film look like EKTACHROME 100 Plus Professional / EPP.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f3/f3.pdf

NancyP
6-Mar-2014, 15:31
Re: tray processing: I have noted that some recommended developers, particularly anything with pyrogallol, are toxic to skin. Do people use latex gloves for tray processing? To start with, I am skipping stuff labelled "toxic", because I would really rather use clean hands rather than risk getting glove cornstarch in the developer.

Mark Woods
6-Mar-2014, 16:03
Not a good idea to use bare hands in the chemicals. There are nitril & latex gloves.

Leigh
6-Mar-2014, 16:30
Hi Nancy,

There are many styles of gloves that are completely free of extraneous material like cornstarch or powder.

I strongly suggest using gloves for all wet darkroom work, regardless of what you're doing.

NEVER use gloves in any chemical other than the developer. Use tongs for stop, fix, and wash.
Using your gloved fingers in any of the later solutions WILL contaminate the developer.

Specifically...
Remove film from the developer using your fingers and drop it in the stop bath without touching same.
Remove film from the stop bath using dedicated tongs and drop it in the fixer.
Remove film from the fixer using its own tongs and drop it in the wash.

- Leigh

tgtaylor
6-Mar-2014, 16:45
I stopped using tongs when processing B&W prints. I now use disposable food handling gloves and dispose after each print. Picked that up from Bob Carne last year when I was in Toronto. It’s much easier and faster with the gloves than with tongs and you don’t run the risk of damaging the print. The cost is cheap too: about 1 cent per print - a box of 500 disposable food handlers’ gloves costs about $5 at Smart & Final.

Thomas

Mark Woods
6-Mar-2014, 17:12
I use dedicated tongs for prints and hangers for film.

Tim Meisburger
6-Mar-2014, 17:41
I use the one-tray method, so never touch a print until its been washed.

ROL
6-Mar-2014, 18:40
I stopped using tongs when processing B&W prints. I now use disposable food handling gloves and dispose after each print. Picked that up from Bob Carne last year when I was in Toronto. It’s much easier and faster with the gloves than with tongs and you don’t run the risk of damaging the print. The cost is cheap too: about 1 cent per print - a box of 500 disposable food handlers’ gloves costs about $5 at Smart & Final.

Thomas

Do you wash your gloved hands, change gloves, or just carry over between trays?

tgtaylor
6-Mar-2014, 19:26
The method I have adopted is the place the glove on the right hand and insert the dry print into the developer with the left (no part of that hand comes into contact with the developer) and lifting the print a couple of times with the right hand to let it drain, etc, and when time transferring the drained print to the stop and repeating the lifting, etc, and then to the fix and wash repeating the lifting in each. I don't put the whole right hand into the chemistry just the finger tips necessary to grasp the print so the carryover is way less than the carryover present on the print itself and I dispose the glove after the wash. Bob Carne puts gloves on both hands but for prints up to 11x14 I find that you can get away with just one.

Thomas

unityofsaints
7-Mar-2014, 01:38
Some good info here about how to handle the film during processing. I didn't know any better and just used a disposable latex glove on one hand for all steps with a quick wash in between but I'll be more careful for future runs.

Doremus Scudder
7-Mar-2014, 03:26
Do you wash your gloved hands, change gloves, or just carry over between trays?

I wear well-fitting nitrile gloves when tray-processing film because I use pyro developers. When working in total darkness, tongs and complicated methods to keep chemicals off the gloves are impractical, to say the least. I use gloves just as I would my hands; I put them on before I begin unloading the holders, and keep them on for the entire session. My gloved fingers are in all the solutions, shuffling the film sheets, and carry over chemicals to the next tray just like the film. I even make sure to dunk my gloves well into the stop to make sure I've neutralized any developer that may have splashed up higher on them.

After processing, I wash and dry my gloves just like I would my hands (soap works just fine on gloves too), making extra sure that they have time to dry before unloading more film holders for another batch. I have lots of clean towels available to ensure that the gloves are not contaminated by carry-over from a towel. I often develop up to 36 sheet films in a session (that's three washer loads for my 12-sheet washer and six or more tray-development batches), and wear the same gloves for the entire session. Furthermore, instead of littering the already overloaded environment with dozens of pairs of gloves each time I work, I wash, dry and save my gloves for the next session. I discard them when they show a leak or a weak area. I test them now by inflating them a bit before each session and checking for leaks.

The only time I've ever had a contamination problem was when I had a small pinhole in the finger of one glove that allowed fixer to get inside and then back on to an undeveloped sheet. I now know how to check for and prevent that, so no more problems.

For printing I use rubber tipped bamboo tongs or, on occasion my bare hands (for develop, stop, fix only, never in toner). I have never, in over 30 years of working in the darkroom, damaged a print with rubber-tipped tongs. I still use a couple of the very first set of tongs I ever bought. When working with larger prints, I use two tongs, one in each hand, and pick up the prints by the corners. If I ever start making 30x40" prints, I'll likely use gloved hands.

Best,

Doremus

ROL
10-Mar-2014, 09:58
Thomas,

Well, if I'm understanding your process, it sounds as though you reintroduce the gloved hand into each tray's chemistry as you transfer the print, and therefore carryover chemistry onto the print (and tray), and furthermore are unconcerned about it. I have found that if I do not wash/rinse my gloved or bare hands between each tray, I risk imprinting chemicals, mainly developer, into the emulsion of the print. Unless you are looking for a way to permanently and uniquely identify your prints (by fingerprinting with bare hands), or only grasp a printed border intended to be trimmed before presentation, that carryover can be deleterious to your prints. This can result in a developer smudge with with gloved hands. I'm not saying you're doing anything incorrectly, or that Bob is, it's just that I don't understand how a clean transfer is possible without interim hand washing.

The reason this subject is important to me, is that I do use bare hands with murals. I must use both hands in order to apply firm grasp (pinch) to large heavy, wet prints without folding or creasing when draining and transferring from tray to tray, and I must wash my hands between every station or risk certain contamination. I have tried gloves, but found that changing between stations or washing is more complicated than simply using bare hands. I am open to a better solution.

FTR, I use tray dedicated spring pressure tongs for all sheet sizes to 20x24, so neither contamination or pinch pressure affects these relatively smaller sizes.




Doremus,

My question to Thomas was about print processing. I use nitrile gloves for all film processing, Pyro and tray, and replace them with each new batch of negatives/developing. I don't unload film holders with them, I put new gloves on just prior to inserting negs in pre-soak. I have found tongs to be out of the question for mural size print processing. I just use gloves for all selenium toning:


http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/uploaded/DarkroomProcess.jpg

tgtaylor
10-Mar-2014, 10:05
ROL,

I only grasp the unprinted edge of the print and have never left a fingerprint on the print. I print with 1/4" borders on 8x10 and 1/2" on 11x14. Again, the carryover from developer on the glove is way less than the developer remaining on the drained print IME.

Thomas

ROL
10-Mar-2014, 10:19
...the carryover from developer on the glove is way less than the developer remaining on the drained print IME.

Of course, but likely much more than from dedicated tongs. It's academic as long as your chemistry remains active. I see no reason why your process does not serve you well with the print sizes you work with. However, large heavy prints are a different beast, and require great pressure and dexterity to handle safely. The required pressure to prevent such prints from nosediving headlong into a tray or the sink (ruining them), is considerable enough to imprint developer where they are grasped. For me, this necessitates using clean hands, or gloves, at each processing station.

tgtaylor
10-Mar-2014, 11:36
Yes, but the amount of carryover is insignificant. With prints larger than 11x14 I use gloves on both hands. I always drop the print into the chemistry face down and "push" it under with the finger tips on the back side of the print. What developer there is on the glove is neutralized. Same thing with the fix and initial wash. I think it would be it would be both unnecessary and impossible to wash the gloves before transferring. Printing with a reasonable border and handling the print in that border area is the solution for me.

Thomas

alavergh
12-Mar-2014, 22:38
Some other info that may be helpful...I know you've already discovered that you mixed your developer and fix, but each sheet of film has some info about the kind of film on the top or side, similar to 35mm, or if you've used Instagram, there is a border that has some writing on the edge, something like "RVP." Anyways, the point is, if you had simply failed to expose your film AND developed correctly, you would still see that writing on the side. Since that text on the edge wasn't developed, then it was dissolved away by the fixer. That text can be important for spotting errors and so can the unexposed edges where the film holder holds the film in once you remove the dark slide.

I process in trays as well and while I've done up to six at a time, I'm going to stick to 4. I use one latex glove and one bare hand. I'm right handed so I use the glove on the right hand and that hand helps shuffle the film, coming in direct contact with the front and back of the film. My bare hand just holds the film on the edges and helps to tell which sheet I'm grabbing. I need a bare hand or else I can't really tell what I'm grabbing. I also lift one end of the film out of the chemistry while shuffling so my bare hand doesn't constantly dunk in the chemistry like the gloved hand does. I also rotate the film in the tray every other minute to make sure I have even development if lifting the film from the chemistry on one half were to have any effect.

jose angel
13-Mar-2014, 01:11
Andrew, I`m afraid there is no printed info on Ilford sheets.

Leigh
13-Mar-2014, 02:45
Alavergh, the days where manufacturer`s printed the emulsion/film type on side passed... (and a while ago!)

Fuji Acros in 4x5 sheets has not only the name of the film, but also a sheet-unique serial number.

The roll versions have the name. I don't know about numbering.

- Leigh

jose angel
13-Mar-2014, 07:26
Leigh, the materials I used to use stopped showing that info on them, and also I wrote in my original post that maybe Fuji could be an exception.
Immediately after that, I noticed that the OP is using Ilford materials, so I deleted all and wrote that Ilford does`t print that info on their sheets (at least on the ones I use).

One hour and a half later you post an answer to what I wrote before editing????? :)

Leigh
13-Mar-2014, 11:10
Hi Jose,

I just hit Reply With Quote.

Sometimes I don't get around to actually writing and sending the reply until some time later.

- Leigh

Bill Burk
14-Mar-2014, 21:59
I use gloves, and after running a print from developer to stop and fix... I rinse under running water and dry thoroughly on terrycloth towel hanging by the fixer tray.

Every once in a while I notice I can't get a finger or thumb dry, and I know that glove has been punctured. It can happen so easily, sometimes the negative carrier bites the tip of a finger. It's bad to go around with punctured gloves because then a little fixer will certainly drip out onto the surface of the next piece of paper... So I toss that glove.

But where the gloves are uncompromised I find washing and drying them is a good practice.