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nonuniform
3-Mar-2014, 17:18
This might not be the right forum, but, I'm trying to figure out the most cost effective way to hang my 44" x 60" prints. I know that I can get them framed, at considerable cost.

Any other thoughts?

Drew Wiley
3-Mar-2014, 17:22
Just depends how nice you want them to look. Thumbtacks are cheap. But lamination ain't, nor any other attractive solution I can think of.

nonuniform
3-Mar-2014, 17:45
Yeah, not thumbtacks. I remember the Black Rapid folks had a cable hanging system in their gallery space in Seattle.

Amedeus
3-Mar-2014, 19:36
Get them framed or mount them on acrylic, DiBond if the subject can be presented without frame. I print my real large images on metal ... higher cost but takes care of the framing challenge ...

Liquid Artist
4-Mar-2014, 02:03
Framing doesn't have to be all that expense. They can reduce your costs by just using regular glass instead of none glare and possible using some blemished framing material. Plus calling around will save you more than you can imagine.
Then you know that it should be done right, and your picture should last for decades.
Another option is just have it mounted on foamboard and hang that.

ROL
4-Mar-2014, 09:58
Any other thoughts?

Let me get this straight. You're looking for a nonuniform way to hang large prints? Wouldn't you be the authority?:rolleyes:

Drew Wiley
4-Mar-2014, 13:36
Let's see ... for a print that big you're using up most of a sheet of acrylic anyway... so there goes $150 or so before you ever actually frame it. Handling regular
glass that size??? Big window there. Hope you know what you are doing.... Just mounting on fomeboard? Well there are only so many ways to do that... and about
the only cheap way is wet mounting, which is an acquired skill. But regular fomeboard isn't very flat to begin with, so it might not look so good. And you'll probably
have to countermount it to keep it from warping. Maybe time for a reality check. Big prints are fine, but they inherently need a bigger budget to display.
But then there's always thumbtacks!

Randy Moe
4-Mar-2014, 13:49
DIY only goes so far. If you are having these digitally printed somewhere, they must offer some sort of mounting/backing option.

Sure it's cheap to buy prints in tubes, but...

Then make the big frame and be real careful with the glass.

nonuniform
4-Mar-2014, 13:58
Well, I think the last thing I want to do is permanently mount anything on either foamcore or metal/dibond.

Drew Wiley
4-Mar-2014, 13:58
Lawyers absolutely love big sheets of untempered glass literally hanging in public spaces, and not affixed to a wall. Hmmm... And Dibond? That's sorta an antonym
to affordable isn't it. And those nice premium sheets of board like Gator and Ultra don't exactly absorb wet glue... so that kinda leaves any cheap method of mounting
off the table... Find a wholesale frame shop with the right gear to do it, and negotiate a volume rate. Everyone seems to want to make big prints nowadays for
some reason... but there is a catch if you want to doing something with them

Drew Wiley
4-Mar-2014, 14:02
So no permanent mounting? Weights at the corners, clips at the top? I think that looks awful, but I do know one now-famous color photographer who resorted to
the thumbtack method when he first started making big prints. Of course, he didn't sell much of anything back then either, and certainly doesn't display things that
way now that he is successful. But if you are hanging them, literally suspending them, you would not want to do it from the corners, but using a top bottom
bars, much like Asian calligraphic scrolls are sometimes suspended.

nonuniform
4-Mar-2014, 14:02
I print everything myself.

Well, I think I'm going to create a system for hanging these. I have some ideas, but I was hoping someone had already tried solving this problem. Having talked to various galleries, I know I'm not the only one that wants to do this in a way that isn't cost-prohibitive.

nonuniform
4-Mar-2014, 14:08
Yeah, I was thinking of creating a method of suspending them.

I've been making big prints since the late 80's, but I've always been dissatisfied with traditional framing.

Jon Shiu
4-Mar-2014, 14:19
There is a thing called posterhanger that can hang large prints for display.

Jon

nonuniform
4-Mar-2014, 14:36
There is a thing called posterhanger that can hang large prints for display.

Jon

Yeah, posterhanger works. I knew someone had solved this!

Randy Moe
4-Mar-2014, 14:41
Nice solution and I hate glass or plastic in front of my prints anyway.

Very affordable and scalable.


There is a thing called posterhanger that can hang large prints for display.

Jon

nonuniform
4-Mar-2014, 14:58
Nice solution and I hate glass or plastic in front of my prints anyway.

Very affordable and scalable.

Yup, the only thing I've read is that some paper is too heavy for the plastic clips. It gives me an idea though, to create something similar that would clamp a set of aluminum bars top and bottom.

Darko Pozar
4-Mar-2014, 15:51
Temporary hanging: Can use plastic poster hangers which clip into top and bottom of print and keeps image flat against wall but can damage edges Thumbtacks: will give a rusted permanent hole in each corner & weight of the print will rip out thumbtacks. Laminates with turn image yellow. Photos in any open environment are exposed to contaminants in the air which deteriorate and discolour your image. Best solution is to frame both visually and maybe economically. Tips: photo must be mounted using ARCHIVAL/MUSEUM mat board or at least temporarily with acid-free board with image SEPARATED from glass/perspex (artwork will stick to glass even create mould.) Framing positives: Photo even more visually stunning & can stay there forever OR you can reuse the frame with another photo same size. Original mounted photo can be sealed/stored and new photo only needs to be mounted and fitted into frame saving big dolllars as both frame and glass/perspex are reused. Also ask for a better price they will want your business. Good luck.

matthew klos
4-Mar-2014, 17:28
If these are silver gelatin prints which may have earlier been said if they go un mounted they will in the end up being wrecked. one mishandling and it will get a crink in it, and for that matter if you went to the cost and effort of making a siler mural print do yourself a favor and have it moutned. If cost is an issue which it seems to be have it mounted to aluminum with a bracket off the back.

Another note, Dibond should not be used for mounting silver prints. Silver gealtin prints should be mounted with heat activated tissue, dibond is made up of a foam core with two thin sheets of alumnium on the outside. The foam can melt during the mounting process. Nor should a silver print be cold mounted through a laminator over time the print will peel.

matthew klos
4-Mar-2014, 17:31
Just another thought gator board, and mattboard change drastically to humidty, and will soak up moisture very very fast.

Drew Wiley
5-Mar-2014, 13:56
Lots of misinformation here. Gator is relatively moisture resistant and is designed as a temporary outdoor ad board. But it ain't cheap, and unless you're using 1/2"
thickness, will still likely warp a bit. And there is nothing inherently at risk of peeling when using an appropriate acrylic adhesive on Dibond. But nobody seems to do
that with black and white prints anyway. Why would they? Drymounting is far cheaper and less risky. Big black and white prints can be wet mounted to high-quality
fomeboards like Artcore in a vac press. That's about the cheapest way I can think of that is a true mounting option. But people who know how to do that still gotta
make a living.

Randy Moe
5-Mar-2014, 14:04
20 years ago I spray mounted three 24x36 prints. Bubbles. I recently destroyed the prints and saved the frames.

Kirk Gittings
5-Mar-2014, 14:10
I print everything myself.

Well, I think I'm going to create a system for hanging these. I have some ideas, but I was hoping someone had already tried solving this problem. Having talked to various galleries, I know I'm not the only one that wants to do this in a way that isn't cost-prohibitive.

Its simply a matter of money. Most people in galleries printing this large are getting prices that allow for proper framing. They kind of go hand in hand. I'm a bit surprised you didn't plan on this before you decided to print that large? If I am financing the costs of prints for a show proper framing is considered as part of the costs and print size planning from day one. Basically I show sizes I can afford to frame properly and then offer prices for larger prints that does include the cost of proper framing. A powerful huge print with amateur framing does not fly well IME unless you are a student.

matthew klos
5-Mar-2014, 14:11
I can speak from experience that dry-mounting in a vac press with dibond will peel the print after time.

Drew Wiley
5-Mar-2014, 14:15
Of course it peeled, cause you gotta use hi-tack acrylic foils on Dibond, not drymount tissue. Wrong mix of adhesive and substrate.

matthew klos
5-Mar-2014, 23:48
I miss spoke, it was not used with dry mount tissue, but with cold adhesive. I have tried both in a vac and a cold press....

Darko Pozar
6-Mar-2014, 05:45
MOUNTING procedures. Hi ! : )
We have seen every mounting procedure under the sun and many disasters. This is what works best for us every time. We use
'Perfectmount' which is archival. Its more expensive but the most RIGID and the easiest to use. TIPS: 1. Critical to wipe
down back of print from any residue/particles/dust by hand 2. Use TWO people. One to hold and guide the print while
the other lays the print. (safer) Start at bottom left hand corner for greater control then move
SLOWLY and diagonally towards top right hand corner using a cotton glove to lay and firmly spread print onto peeled board.
3. ****USE a printers RUBBER roller (cheap) and firmly roll starting at CENTRE of print moving outward towards edges
pushing out any air bubbles. TRIPLE CHECK print and keep rolling and rolling out any trapped air until perfect. TAKE your TIME.
4. Place large thin sheet of board onto vacuum press (3mm MDF can do) and place mounted image onto it.
MUST use cold vacuum press. This keeps image FLAT and will never ever peel no matter what environment. We have perfect
prints 10 years old. Hope this helps someone. Good Luck. : )))

Drew Wiley
6-Mar-2014, 09:33
Ten years isn't much of a track record if that "archival" word comes into play. And there are numerous methods and materials for doing something successfully.
The point is to have the correct experience and equipment to be proficient at it, and don't make unrealistic promises.

Drew Wiley
6-Mar-2014, 09:58
A distinct problem with all acrylic foils is that they have to be used within a reasonable period of time. If the adhesive is more than a couple years old, or the roll
has been stored in a hot place (either before or after you bought it) there will be problems. Correct prep of substrate is also important. But true cold mounting is
something best left to a pro with the right equipment (which ain't cheap). If you want to try it, save up your otherwise unwanted work prints, cause you'll mess
up a bunch of em in the learning curve.

nonuniform
11-Mar-2014, 11:19
Its simply a matter of money. Most people in galleries printing this large are getting prices that allow for proper framing. They kind of go hand in hand. I'm a bit surprised you didn't plan on this before you decided to print that large? If I am financing the costs of prints for a show proper framing is considered as part of the costs and print size planning from day one. Basically I show sizes I can afford to frame properly and then offer prices for larger prints that does include the cost of proper framing. A powerful huge print with amateur framing does not fly well IME unless you are a student.

So, I'm not sure, is this response designed to help me with my quest for displaying my prints?

nonuniform
11-Mar-2014, 11:21
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I spent some time exploring options this weekend, and I've figured out a way to hang the prints. I'll document it once I have it complete. Note, it doesn't include permanently mounting the prints to anything.

Kirk Gittings
11-Mar-2014, 11:46
So, I'm not sure, is this response designed to help me with my quest for displaying my prints?

I've made every mistake in the book including this one-making large prints before considering how they will be hung and the costs and effort involved. Just sharing hard earned experience. You don't want it fine.

I am sitting at my desk at the university just outside a public gallery that has a prestigious one man show with many fine large prints done by an acquaintance of mine. The expensive presentation method is failing (shadow boxed Dibond mounted prints) and the show will have to be pulled down for safety sake long before the show is scheduled to come down. Not good for the pocket book or the reputation. He had never done his prints this way. So the moral of the story I guess is test it first before hanging a show in a public venue. I made a similar mistake last year when I sold the largest print I ever had, 30x60. I had a professional framer do it but it was a method they had not done before but assured me it would work. I planned well in advance but it failed after a couple of weeks on my clients wall.........my mistake don't try new untested methods on clients. You will look like an amateur.

Randy Moe
11-Mar-2014, 12:05
+1, meaning Kirk

matthew klos
11-Mar-2014, 14:01
Well said Kirk, not sure why this thread is still even being talked about.

Stephen Willard
11-Mar-2014, 18:50
I frame 20x50 prints using a 35x65 frame, double matted, and real glass all the time. In fact, that size is my best selling size.

It cost me around $130 to $150 to frame. If I have a whole sale framing company do it, then it is around $1000. Currently, I mount and assemble all of my prints on my dining room table. However, I am in the process of designing and building a two story framing studio next to my house. The second attached photo is the back of a smaller print I framed, but I use the same picture wire configuration to transfer the weight of the print to the bottom member of the frame for my biggest stuff as well. They are not light. I also crate them and ship them all over the world.

111998 111999

Hope this helps...

ROL
11-Mar-2014, 19:27
I haven't re-entered this discussion because it seemed to me you are truly looking for something no one here is willing to countenance. If you change your mind, you can present prints yourself in classical fashion, without sending them out. That is the sole purpose of this article and video, Print Presentation (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/Fine%20Art%20Print%20Presentation).

Kirk Gittings
11-Mar-2014, 19:42
While I agree in principal with everything in this video, I think, based on my experience, that it very seriously under represents the difficulties of dry mounting very large prints in a small press. I have this same size press and I will not do anything larger than 20x24. Its sooo easy to make a small mistake and ruin a very expensive and difficult to make large print (especially in silver) that I prefer to have a professional framer with a large press do it.

Peter De Smidt
11-Mar-2014, 20:46
Stephen, your mailbox is full.

Stephen Willard
11-Mar-2014, 23:01
Stephen, your mailbox is full.

Hey Peter, I just cleaned out my mail box. Thanks for letting me know....

Drew Wiley
12-Mar-2014, 15:38
I've done all kinds of experiments over the years, and have deliberately hung large prints in abusive environments just to see what happens over the long haul. One
thing I learned is that you cannot rely on hearsay. Different climates and display environments present somewhat different challenges. I've got a pretty well-equipped personal frame shop, but still, there are a lot of things I won't try. Drymounting is just about the easiest and most reliable method of mounting per se, but even it has its rules; and it rarely works with color prints. Shoestring galleries around here don't even bother. They just pin the big inkjets or whatever to the wall and let the potential buyer worry about it. Looks hokey, but.... Afterwards comes the rude awakening that the cost of framing might be more than the initial purchase itself. And even if you do successfully provide this service up front, what do you pay yourself for it? Is your own time and overhead free?

ROL
12-Mar-2014, 16:39
While I agree in principal with everything in this video, I think, based on my experience, that it very seriously under represents the difficulties of dry mounting very large prints in a small press. I have this same size press and I will not do anything larger than 20x24. Its sooo easy to make a small mistake and ruin a very expensive and difficult to make large print (especially in silver) that I prefer to have a professional framer with a large press do it.

FTR, the accompanying video illustrates the mounting of an 11x14. That is all most people ever see of a substantial educational effort. The article, OTOH, has but a couple of small paragraphs devoted to tips on large print mounting. No statement was made regarding the ease of mounting prints larger than 20x24, and your statement is a mischaracterization of the actual information. The section was kept deliberately short for the reason of not being perceived to be a tutorial on large dry mounts. I'm sorry you found it incomplete or not to your standard. You can always ask for your money back (in triplicate carbon).

Mounting and presentation appear to be much more of a skillful discipline than many are capable of. My objective was to take the mystery out of the dry mounting process. I charge substantially more for my mural fiber prints than standard sheet sizes, precisely because of the progressive (exponential?) difficulties in completing a fine art piece. That begins at enlarging and processing, and ends with dry mounting and windowing (i.e., presentation). It is, of course, more difficult to handle large pieces, particularly in a smaller press, but it can be done, if one is a careful worker. Regrettably, there may be "breakage" in the production of large prints, whether in the processing or the mounting stage, where on occasion, not every 30x40 first mount ends up being a keeper. A key point here is in getting the temperature right (not to be confused with correct) per mounting tissue. The option is to spend several thousand dollars for a press and create a space large enough to work in, or to have it "professionally" presented. My entire point in offering any of my techniques (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/techniques) articles is to empower the individual, either whose resources may be as meager as mine or are becoming nonexistent with every passing day as technology obviates them, or who simply wish to offer work completely their own – not to hold their hand. I don't get paid enough for that :rolleyes:.

Randy Moe
12-Mar-2014, 18:20
I watched the video. While I learned dry mount 15 years ago, I have not done it since. My many images from that time have survived well dry mounted, stored in layers of 'archival' tissue and boxes, under my bed.

I really appreciated your video as it showed me the technique I once learned and forgot.

Now, I am equipped with both knowledge and private equipment.

Thank you!




I haven't re-entered this discussion because it seemed to me you are truly looking for something no one here is willing to countenance. If you change your mind, you can present prints yourself in classical fashion, without sending them out. That is the sole purpose of this article and video, Print Presentation (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/Fine%20Art%20Print%20Presentation).

Greg Blank
12-Mar-2014, 18:30
How much do you want for the print? I have pretty certain demographics that say cheap framing equals people that won't buy the image. If you are going to glaze a larger image you need to use plexi, I have a 30x40 frame with image that is under glass that would be the largest I would use glass for. Plexi ain't cheap. You should spend 1/3 to half what the print is worth to you, that way if it sells or not the BS walks. I should add that any gallery wanting to display your image should eat or split the cost of presenting it- preferably eat it,.. towards the end price.

Kirk Gittings
12-Mar-2014, 19:00
FTR, the accompanying video illustrates the mounting of an 11x14. That is all most people ever see of a substantial educational effort. The article, OTOH, has but a couple of small paragraphs devoted to tips on large print mounting. No statement was made regarding the ease of mounting prints larger than 20x24, and your statement is a mischaracterization of the actual information. The section was kept deliberately short for the reason of not being perceived to be a tutorial on large dry mounts. I'm sorry you found it incomplete or not to your standard. You can always ask for your money back (in triplicate carbon).

Mounting and presentation appear to be much more of a skillful discipline than many are capable of. My objective was to take the mystery out of the dry mounting process. I charge substantially more for my mural fiber prints than standard sheet sizes, precisely because of the progressive (exponential?) difficulties in completing a fine art piece. That begins at enlarging and processing, and ends with dry mounting and windowing (i.e., presentation). It is, of course, more difficult to handle large pieces, particularly in a smaller press, but it can be done, if one is a careful worker. Regrettably, there may be "breakage" in the production of large prints, whether in the processing or the mounting stage, where on occasion, not every 30x40 first mount ends up being a keeper. A key point here is in getting the temperature right (not to be confused with correct) per mounting tissue. The option is to spend several thousand dollars for a press and create a space large enough to work in, or to have it "professionally" presented. My entire point in offering any of my techniques (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/techniques) articles is to empower the individual, either whose resources may be as meager as mine or are becoming nonexistent with every passing day as technology obviates them, or who simply wish to offer work completely their own – not to hold their hand. I don't get paid enough for that :rolleyes:.

It is a truly excellent demo with that one exception. But make that three paragraphs and a picture. IMHO by not mentioning the info you provided in your post above you may be misleading people into thinking it is just more effort but no more difficulty to do large prints. Seems like an easy addition.

FWIW I had absolutely no idea that was your site as you are essentially anonymous on this forum. I always thought ROL was your initials.

Stephen Willard
12-Mar-2014, 20:01
Printing and framing large prints is exponentially more difficult. To me 20x24 prints are small prints and easy to do, but 20x50 or 30x40 prints is whole different ball of wax. I make color prints using Fuji Crystal archive papers. I cut them from a 40"x120' roll of paper in total darkness. It took me while just to figure that out. Handling large prints without creasing them is an art in itself. Handling the prints in the darkroom is even more complicated. And the list goes on...

It took years to figure out to do large prints from cutting, developing, handling, mounting, and finally assembling the frame. I gave up on dry mounting, and I now use a spray adhesive. I had to make special tools to handle the prints so that I could apply the adhesive and then precisely mount it without creasing the paper, getting bubbles, or dimples. It takes patience, practice, and determination to solve all the problems and become proficient at making large framed prints. I then had to figure out to crate this big stuff with all that glass so that it did not weigh a ton or cost a fortune, and yet be shipped anywhere without breaking the glass or frame.

God, I am so glade I know what I know now because I could not imagine having to start from scratch again. I do not mean to discourage anyone, but be forewarned its like climbing K2, straight up hill.

Drew Wiley
13-Mar-2014, 16:29
Be darn careful with spray adhesives, Stephen. Go to one of the pro framers forums and you can see there's a FATALITY reputation that goes along with long-term exposure to the kinds of solvents in those sprays. You need a true fume extraction spray booth with an explosion-proof exhuast fan, and a serious respirator, or better, supplied-air headwear. Not fooling whatsoever. They've earned a reputation for being really nasty on health.

Stephen Willard
13-Mar-2014, 19:00
Be darn careful with spray adhesives, Stephen. Go to one of the pro framers forums and you can see there's a FATALITY reputation that goes along with long-term exposure to the kinds of solvents in those sprays. You need a true fume extraction spray booth with an explosion-proof exhuast fan, and a serious respirator, or better, supplied-air headwear. Not fooling whatsoever. They've earned a reputation for being really nasty on health.

Drew, I am considering building a two story out building adjacent to my house. The lower have will be a framing shop and the upper half is for general storage. I am also considering outfitting it with some high end framing equipment. I would love your thoughts on what equipment and methods you would use to mount big color prints?

The photographic paper I use is Fuji Crystal Archive.

StoneNYC
13-Mar-2014, 23:18
Drew, I am considering building a two story out building adjacent to my house. The lower have will be a framing shop and the upper half is for general storage. I am also considering outfitting it with some high end framing equipment. I would love your thoughts on what equipment and methods you would use to mount big color prints?

The photographic paper I use is Fuji Crystal Archive.

Better have a big elevator and extra support if all your storage and weight is on top... ;)

I would be interested in understanding this as well (for the very distant future).

Drew Wiley
14-Mar-2014, 08:24
Gosh, Willard, that whole storage thing is driving me nuts right now. I've got to play musical chairs with some very heavy gear, trying to fit everything in. Bat timing
for me, since I'm desperate to get some indoor remodeling to the house done before I retire too. I figure I'll have to put up an extra storage shed soon, and in the
long run turn the studio/gallery concept into dual use for clean framing application, other than drymounting, but including things like matcutting, cold mounting, and
final assembly. Everything like the manufacture of frames and cutting glazing will, of course, continue in my shop per se. I simply offer this as a hint how spaces need to be realistically divided between rougher and cleaner aspects. I hope to install a big Esterly Speedmat in the coming months, once I've gotten another big Durst enlarger squeezed into the next room past that intended space. I thinking proactively, in terms of how potentially arthritic fingers are going to behave in the long haul - so a Speedmat will be a wise investment (a lot easier to use). Cold mounting is tricky. The hardest part is simply getting the adhesive foil perfectly flat on the board in the first place. I might simply "cheat" on this aspect and buy precoated smooth board from Oregon Laminations. It saves a lot of headache. I happen to use a roller press from Daige, which is relatively affordable, though I've been offered a much more expensive one from a retired lab. But it works fine once its properly adjusted. You need a true clean room for this, and a lot of practice, and obviously storage nooks for the board itself. I have a wholesale account
with a framing supplier, but only use this for sticks of Nielsen metal moulding. I prefer to use a specific local hardwood moulder for wood mouldings, or to shape it
myself. Hardwood has to be cured exactly right for framing use (and rarely is). But I have certain advantages as a machinery dealer, so am slowly investing in the
basic tools I'll need during retirement (those most of this I've had all along). But by basics, I mean the very best. Again, gotta think not only of proficiency and
shop cleanliness, but personal ergonomics during old age. Gotta go for the moment - a long, long day purchasing more equipment to sell. Hundreds of lines yet to
go today. But I'll chime in from time to time, to clear my mind briefly from the paperwork fog.

Stephen Willard
14-Mar-2014, 10:12
[QUOTE=Drew Wiley;1119799]Gosh, Willard, that whole storage thing is driving me nuts right now./QUOTE]

Here is an attic lift I intend to make and install in my two story out building for storing all of my heavy stuff upstairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEhGPexInIM

I will also use a pull down ladder to get myself upstairs. The nice thing about both of these solutions is that they do not use up any floor space in my framing shop.

Drew Wiley
14-Mar-2014, 10:51
I have a warehouse rolling ladder for my loft space, Stephen, but only put lightwt things up there. I might have to open another section above the darkrooms, just
to clear more floor space. My lab bldg is fairly large, but already full (four darkrooms, plus general shop). I can't simply add another room to the house itself, or anywhere else - here in Calif the property taxes are based on when you purchase your home. If your primary residence becomes reclassified due to the addition of
any official add-on, they can retax you at current market value (which in my case would shoot my taxes ahead by almost four decades!). Fortunately, simply partitioning a commercial space into various workrooms or darkrooms does not fall under those parameters, simply whatever is applicable to normal structural and
safety bldg permits. Wish I still had the ranch, cause I had LOTS of extra space there, even indoors. But I don't. Hope I don't have to rent a storage space.