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View Full Version : Upgrade my 4x5 - need input



Jack Davis
22-Sep-2004, 15:38
I cut my teeth in Large Format on a Super Graphic, and now want to upgrade my camera. Please offer your advice/experiences as to a good 2nd purchase to open my photography up to the next level.

Criteria includes:

1) Monorail or Field Camera OK 2) Backpack/travel friendly - I never take a picture near the road... 3) Lenses - 110 to 400 or so. 4) Price - don't want to spend more than $1,500. 5) Landscape mostly, some architecture and I'd love to eventually start some macro. 6) Good movements (Starting from a Graphic, this shouldn't be hard.) 7) Rigid - I don't like sloppy shifts and tilts.

As you can see - I want it all. I've reading favorable reviews of the Toho FC-45X, Horseman LE, and Ebony - but am open to other suggestions.

Thanks

John D Gerndt
22-Sep-2004, 16:01
Unless you are limited to 4x5 consider jumping to 5x7. It takes very little more effort to shoot and/or process and you have 35 square inches instead of 20.

All cameras with sufficient movements and rigidity are on the same plane; one may be more convenient that another, but to make a quality leap you need more film. The jump to 8x10 is startling, but not to 5x7; it is the last easy step to better picutres.

Cheers!

Leonard Evens
22-Sep-2004, 16:03
I have a Toho FC-45X. It seems to meet all your requirements. It is about as light a view camera, field or monorail, as you can find. As you may know, Kerry Thalmann has written a very favorable review of it. I like mine a lot. Badger Graphics is also selling a Chinese clone of the Toho under their own brand name, the Badger M2, for about 3/4 the price. I don't know anyone who has actually bought one, but Jeff at Badger says it is is identical to the Toho, and he has never misled me before.

No camera is going to be perfect, and the Toho is no exception. It has some minor faults, and if you decide to get one, feel free to check with me for some pointers.

Steve Hamley
22-Sep-2004, 16:33
Ebony RW45.

Steve

Joseph Dickerson
22-Sep-2004, 16:33
Jack,

Just a quick plug for the Badger M-2. I'm currently working with one for an article and it is a very nice little camera. It's a bit rough in the finish department, I suspect the Toho might be finished a little better but the design and function are great. Kerry Thalman and Roger Hicks both love the Toho so it's got to be good.

I also worked with a couple of Gowlands over the years and for a light weight camera with lots of movements they are hard to beat. They are not too expensive either.

Another winner is the Shen Hao, also available from Badger Graphic Sales (and others).

Good luck finding the right camera, it's not as easy as it seems.

Joe D.

Ernest Purdum
22-Sep-2004, 16:58
Your desirable factors work against each other somewhat. Backpack friendly generally means a rather light field camera. Macro work, though, can mean a long extension for which a monorail is better suited. Using lenses up to 400mm also requires long extension unless you go to a telephoto which means that attmpts to use front swings and tilts can drive you mad. (No problem with rise, fall, or shift.) Monorails are also apt to be more rigid, though not always. Some of the newest monorails might come closest to your requirements, but are way out of budget. If you don't mind rather time-consuming packing and set-up, an earlier modular type monorail which, with bellows detached, allows the front and back frames to be folded, or turned parallel to the rail, might be sufficiently bacpack friendly. Earlier Sinars, and some Japanese cameras, fit into this category. Extra long rails, etc., for macro work, could be ordinarily left at home.

Rick Heitman
22-Sep-2004, 17:10
There is a mint toyo VX on ebay, with a starting bid of a grand. It will do everything you need and is also compact like you need. I have a GX, which is a little harder to pack but it does all I need it too.

Gem Singer
22-Sep-2004, 17:27
Hi Jack, I'm assuming that your $1500 price cap is for the camera, only. If so, take a look at the Ebony RW45. I meets all of your criterion. Of course, the lenses you choose will add, substantially, to the price.

If the $1500 cap also includes the lenses, the 4X5 Shen Hao is about as low-priced as it gets and still have a full-featured camera that meets your requirements, still allowing the funds for purchasing a lens(s).

Armin Seeholzer
22-Sep-2004, 17:34
Arca Swiss discovery the cheapest one,will do the job!

Brian Ellis
22-Sep-2004, 19:31
The 400mm length narrows your options in field cameras considerably, unless you're willing to use a telephoto 400. The Tachihara and Shen Hao would be good choices but for that requirement, neither will handle a normal lens longer than 300mm and even that is a stretch for the Shen Hao especially. You also eliminate Linhof Technikas, Toyo field cameras, and virtually all older wood field cameras. Most Ebony cameras are elimianted either by that requirement (in the case of the non-folding Ebonys) or by your budget (in the case of all other Ebony cameras except the RW that others have mentioned). In addition to the RW, a Wisner Technical Field or one of the Canham 4x5s would work well. Either should be within your budget if bought used, both have ample movements for architecutre and bellows plenty long enough to handle a 400mm normal lens. The Wisner Traditional is within your budget as a new camera but IIRC it's kind of on the heavy side.

I'm not a fan of monorails for field use. I know some people use them and like them, particularly the monorails designed for field use such as the Toho, so it's strictly a personal view. However, in the time I've been participating here I've seen quite a few messages from people who want to get rid of a monorail they've been using in the field and replace it with a field camera. I don't offhand recall ever seeing a message from someone saying they want to get rid of their field camera and replace it with a monorail for field use.

Robert Ley
22-Sep-2004, 21:08
Hi Jack, I also cut my LF teeth on a Super Graphic. I upgraded to a Wista VX. It is a metal folding field camera that is built like a brick (about 6lbs.) with interchangeable bellows. Uses Linhof style boards (easy to get). It has an extension bellows that I have seen on Ebay for about $250 which will give you about 600mm of bellows and with the bag bellows which I picked up for less than $100 I can easily use my 75mm SA. I have a 360mm Schneider Tele-xenar and it easily focuses down to about 15 ft with the 300+mm of bellows. It has geared rise and locks down all movements very securely. I love my Wista and have yet to run out of front or back movements. I also use my camera for primarily landscape and have a Cambo SC for any architecture shot I might want to do. I picked up an adapter board so I can easily use my Wista boards with the Cambo. I also picked up my VX on Ebay for about $700 so it is well within your budget. Good luck in your search.

Ole Tjugen
23-Sep-2004, 00:25
Backpack-friendly monorail? That's easy - the Linhof Color. Not "Kardan Color", but the old, simple plain Color. Mine handles lenses from 90mm to 360mm, but the bellows extend to about 42cm. I just don't have any lens that long wihch fits the Technika boards!

I carry camera, six holders, extra film, changing bag, spotmeter, six lenses (90mm SA, 135mm Planar, 150mm APO-Lanthar, 210mm Xenar, 240mm Symmar, 360mm Tele-Xenar) in a Lowepro S&F Lite Trekker.

Sharon S.
23-Sep-2004, 09:04
Hi Jack -

One thing to consider with field cameras is the size of the back element of your lense should you decide to go wider than 110. Some of them cannot handle the large rear element.

Wayne Crider
23-Sep-2004, 18:14
I"ll guess you'd have to figure that we all have our preferences as illustrated. I too cut my teeth on a Super, but after stupidly selling it I returned with a couple of Crowns. I'm just now getting back to 4x5 after becoming annoyed that I can't shoot up an entire roll of film in less than a month or even more, so I figure I may as well be shootiing 4x5. At least then I can process something;

I've been looking and reading as you, as I'd like to move up too, but I guess like me you'll have to figure it out for yourself cause all we (others) will do is probably fuddle your mind up to the point where you won't be able to think at all. Asking which one around here can lead to a migraine. You know it's that too many options thing people encounter when buying stuff. Anyways, it's just too bad there's not a Rent A LF Camera store in every town. Anyways, in the price range you mention, although there's alot to choose from your 400mm requirement has more opportunities in the monorail venue.

In flatbeds check the Gandolfi Variant, Walker, Zone VI and Phillips which according to the article I'm reading in an old 1996 magazine, states they all are over 18" in extension. If it's useable I don't know. I'm sure by now tho you've read all the spec's and should know what your options are, so it might be prudent to ask about set up, rigidity, accessories blah blah blah. I've basically narowed my choices down to the Discovery, I like the idea of a reflex finder eventually, and rails and bellows can be changed easily, or an 8x10 Tachihara; For now. I figure that with an 8x10 I might be able to actually see a focused image without resorting to a magnifier. I have handled the Arca and with the short rail as an option the thing collapses in like 5 sec's. and the package is actually pretty small; Setup is just as fast. Leave the long rail on the tripod in the 90 deg position and it's off you go.

Let us know what you wind up with and how you like it. Maybe I'll be interested as well.

Tom Smart
24-Sep-2004, 09:54
I am cutting my own 4x5 eye teeth on a Badger M-2 that I got last spring. The camera is very light, portable and easy to use. Ocaisionally the adjustments slip, so I find myself tightening things down very well. The finish is a bit rough as noted above, but that doesn't matter. I have brought the camera backpacking on extended trips and day trips. Paired up with my Hakuba carbon tripod it is very easy to tote around without feeling burdened.

A was getting lots of light leaks in the beginning, and attributed them to my used film holders until, much to my surprise, I took the camera into a darkroom and looked at it with a flashlight inside the belows. My first discovery was leaks in the bellows attachment. At all for corners of the rear board the bellows was not glued down sufficiently. It was a relatively easy fix with super glue once I discovered the problem.

More light leaks were driving me mad, and I discovered that light was leaking through the spring back attachment - though the L-shaped rail that guides the film boards into place. I patched these up and things are now fine.

Despite my early frustrations I am happy to use this camera and can recommend it. Jeff was helpful over the phone advising me regarding the light leaks. But I'd wonder if anyone else has experienced similar problems.