CCP: Next Conversation 2014 Twitter feed

[Darin Boville]

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23CCPnext&src=hash

Anyone go? Any other reports?

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

I have a good friend there David Bram of Fraction Magazine, but all I have gotten are these twitter sound bytes that really say almost nothing.

[Darin Boville]

Looking at the photographs I don't see any sort of video camera--just a crappy little microphone laying on its side on a utility table.

I guess the university is not much into the whole disseminate information thing!

Bummer.

--Darin

[Mark Sawyer]

It's a private, very secretive event for "business and marketing insiders." Go here and click on "The Next Conversation", and you'll know all the University wants you to know about it.

http://www.creativephotography.org/exhibitions-events/events/special-events

I agree with Darin. Public universities are not what they once were...

[Kirk Gittings]

I guess the university is not much into the whole disseminate information thing!

That'a a bit of a leap. Because they aren't doing it live doesn't mean they aren't going to disseminate the discussions.

[Darin Boville]

That'a a bit of a leap. Because they aren't doing it live doesn't mean they aren't going to disseminate the discussions.

I wasn't talking about a live broadcast. But I was hoping that it had been videotaped. Judging by the photos it doesn't look like it. Oh well.

--Darin

[Mark Sawyer]

That'a a bit of a leap. Because they aren't doing it live doesn't mean they aren't going to disseminate the discussions.

No, it's a pretty secretive affair. This isn't the first "Conversation" the CCP has hosted, and nothing is ever released from any of them. I only wish it were important enough to form a decent conspiracy theory over. "Ahh, the Photo-Illuminati are scheming against us... " :)

[Leigh]

It's a private, very secretive event for "business and marketing insiders." Go here and click on "The Next Conversation", and you'll know all the University wants you to know about it.
http://www.creativephotography.org/exhibitions-events/events/special-events
What I got was (quote):
"Access Denied
Information about this event is private. If you have questions, contact Ruth McCutcheon"

- Leigh

[Tin Can]

Did you read the 'tweets'? what a joke, it's why I don't bother. If that passes for communication, I'll never know.

Another scam.

[Leigh]

I don't read tweets.

- Leigh

[Tin Can]

I don't either, but I clicked on the link and there were the inane 140 digit messages. My Favorite, by memory, 'Historical photographs are like 1500 year butterflies dead on a car grill.' Or close to that.

Part of me really hopes for an EMP.


I don't read tweets.

- Leigh

[Kirk Gittings]

No, it's a pretty secretive affair. This isn't the first "Conversation" the CCP has hosted, and nothing is ever released from any of them. I only wish it were important enough to form a decent conspiracy theory over. "Ahh, the Photo-Illuminati are scheming against us... " :)

Unfortunately like a lot of academia, its probably much ado about nothing.....

[marfa boomboom tx]

--

maybe they answered their "to open, or not" with a 'not'

[Kirk Gittings]

Soooooooo turns out I knew a bunch of people there-many from New Mexico. I just ran into one of them in Santa Fe a Lowe's a couple of hours ago while I was picking up some hardware for my new film drying cabinet. The reaction from this person?

"It was a joke, a bunch of old white guys bitching and moaning about losing their favorite film and having to market themselves on Facebook."

[Tin Can]

Perfect!

[Kirk Gittings]

Randy. You are in Chicago right? Let's get together for a cup or whatever when I am in Chicago at SAIC this summer.

[Tin Can]

Yes, I am in Chicago, Logan Square, near Western and Armitage, Blue Line El stop.

I can meet you downtown most any day, noon to midnight. I'm a night owl.

Or you may visit my darkroom / studio.

I assume you will be teaching SAIC this summer.

Sounds great!



Randy. You are in Chicago right? Let's get together for a cup or whatever when I am in Chicago at SAIC this summer.

[Mark Sawyer]

Soooooooo turns out I knew a bunch of people there-many from New Mexico. I just ran into one of them in Santa Fe a Lowe's a couple of hours ago while I was picking up some hardware for my new film drying cabinet. The reaction from this person?

"It was a joke, a bunch of old white guys bitching and moaning about losing their favorite film and having to market themselves on Facebook."

From the pictures posted, it seemed a pretty even mix of male/female and young/old:

https://twitter.com/lightworkorg/status/437301599572987905/photo/1

https://twitter.com/lightworkorg/status/437329613182599169/photo/1

I'm just surprised at the ultra-low profile this event always keeps. You'd think there would be at least a little publicity to drum up interest or attendance beforehand, or a little dissemination of information afterwards. All the CCP has ever released on any of these events so far has been: "Access Denied. Information about this event is private."

The CCP has grown very elitist and secretive. It holds amazing archives, but the public can only see whatever the current exhibit is, (currently an 8-month long show of photojournalist Charles Harbutt). For a tax-payer supported "public" institution, it's disappointing...

[keith schreiber]

"It was a joke, a bunch of old white guys bitching and moaning about losing their favorite film and having to market themselves on Facebook."

That's funny! Sounds a lot like this place much of the time. :rolleyes:

[Kirk Gittings]

From the pictures posted, it seemed a pretty even mix of male/female and young/old:

https://twitter.com/lightworkorg/status/437301599572987905/photo/1

https://twitter.com/lightworkorg/status/437329613182599169/photo/1

I'm just surprised at the ultra-low profile this event always keeps. You'd think there would be at least a little publicity to drum up interest or attendance beforehand, or a little dissemination of information afterwards. All the CCP has ever released on any of these events so far has been: "Access Denied. Information about this event is private."

The CCP has grown very elitist and secretive. It holds amazing archives, but the public can only see whatever the current exhibit is, (currently an 8-month long show of photojournalist Charles Harbutt). For a tax-payer supported "public" institution, it's disappointing...

FWIW AFAIK the event is by invitation only.

[goamules]

As a very active photographer in Tucson, along with Mark and a few others with decades of pro experience, I concur - the CCP is very closed, and mostly is a career stepping stone for senior University administrators. I know a guy that works there, and he agrees, it does not want to study, research, or advocate historic photography. Maybe in name, but throwing together an exhibit for the one gallery every month isn't cutting it. Three cases in point:

1. The previously had an excellent photography library. I went many times and perused the rare books as I researched daguerreotype period equipment and photographers, etc. It was a large collection, hundreds of books. Many you had to sign out or read in a special viewing room. I went by with the (below) visitor, and noticed the Library had been removed, and offices and vaults now occupy the space that 3 years ago was a nice place to visit.

2. They previously offered print viewing, on appointment. A photographer friend from the UK visited me a few months ago, and I tried to set up a viewing of a few artists they have in the copious vaults. I got back a very windy, arrogant, and dismissive email from the Assistant Director, CCP, part of which reads:


"Thank you for contacting the Center for Creative Photography about viewing fine art photographs from the Center’s collection. The Center for Creative Photography no longer offers private print viewings of fine art photographs from the collection. The Center has carefully considered the benefits of public access to collection materials along with the long-term preservation of its collection. In 2011 the Center discontinued individual public print viewing and currently restricts individual viewings to scholars, museum professionals, and fine art photographers working on a specific research project, publication, or museum exhibition and for whom it is imperative to view original photographs. ...."

When I told him my credentials as a "scholar" and "fine art photographer" as per the above, and pressed for a viewing....my emails were ignored. They do have "Photo Fridays" for some special print viewings...planned by the center. Basically, if you want to see something they have by a particular artist or genre - he said "wait and maybe one day you'll get lucky and we'll have it exhibited...."

3. There are empty classrooms, previously used sub-galleries, and acres of brick walls on two floors. All devoid of any photographs. Just the one gallery to the right, the rest is non-utilized. If it was a not for profit museum, it would have closed a long time ago with this lackadaisical attitude.
Donors like Ansel Adams should be spinning in their graves.

[Merg Ross]

As a very active photographer in Tucson, along with Mark and a few others with decades of pro experience, I concur - the CCP is very closed, and mostly is a career stepping stone for senior University administrators. I know a guy that works there, and he agrees, it does not want to study, research, or advocate historic photography. Maybe in name, but throwing together an exhibit for the one gallery every month isn't cutting it. Three cases in point:

1. The previously had an excellent photography library. I went many times and perused the rare books as I researched daguerreotype period equipment and photographers, etc. It was a large collection, hundreds of books. Many you had to sign out or read in a special viewing room. I went by with the (below) visitor, and noticed the Library had been removed, and offices and vaults now occupy the space that 3 years ago was a nice place to visit.

2. They previously offered print viewing, on appointment. A photographer friend from the UK visited me a few months ago, and I tried to set up a viewing of a few artists they have in the copious vaults. I got back a very windy, arrogant, and dismissive email from the Assistant Director, CCP, part of which reads:


"Thank you for contacting the Center for Creative Photography about viewing fine art photographs from the Center’s collection. The Center for Creative Photography no longer offers private print viewings of fine art photographs from the collection. The Center has carefully considered the benefits of public access to collection materials along with the long-term preservation of its collection. In 2011 the Center discontinued individual public print viewing and currently restricts individual viewings to scholars, museum professionals, and fine art photographers working on a specific research project, publication, or museum exhibition and for whom it is imperative to view original photographs. ...."

When I told him my credentials as a "scholar" and "fine art photographer" as per the above, and pressed for a viewing....my emails were ignored. They do have "Photo Fridays" for some special print viewings...planned by the center. Basically, if you want to see something they have by a particular artist or genre - he said "wait and maybe one day you'll get lucky and we'll have it exhibited...."

3. There are empty classrooms, previously used sub-galleries, and acres of brick walls on two floors. All devoid of any photographs. Just the one gallery to the right, the rest is non-utilized. If it was a not for profit museum, it would have closed a long time ago with this lackadaisical attitude.
Donors like Ansel Adams should be spinning in their graves.

This is really unfortunate news. I can recall the early years and enthusiasm for the Center. Ansel was of course the moving force behind seeing it accomplished after the University of California decided against
taking his archive. The original spirit was that the work at the Center would be seen and accessible to a large audience through the print viewing appointments that you mention. My father has 98 prints there that I have sent people to see over the years. Apparently that is no longer possible. You can be sure that Ansel is not the only disappointed donor spinning.

[JMB]

I am not the least bit surprised. It's plain from the CCP site alone that the institution now suffers badly from contemporary culture disease. In another case of sketchy recollection it seems to me that I once heard Ansel Adams remark in an interview that he donated negatives to the CCP on the condition that photographers would be able to study and even print from the negatives under supervision. A promise not likely to be honored, I thought.

A discussion concerning a framework and structure for artist control of materials is badly needed. The fact that the important items in the CCP archives is in essence limited to individuals with safe institutional insider history helps to ensure that the archive will eventually be maintained as historical relics instead of a living source of inspiration and influence to new photographers.

[goamules]

Perhaps. But if photography groups, institutions, and powerful individuals and journalists debated that what they are doing is wrong, it might change. The only reason in the director's letter was a classic "access versus protection" argument. This excuse is used to prevent access to many wild lands, historic places, etc. Yet eventually the powers find ways to have both access and preservation.

If people would write the director, and as many people involved at the CCP, it would help. If it doesn't, a media campaign about the CCP "going against the wishes of doners like Adams" would.

[goamules]

duplicate

[Merg Ross]

The future direction of the CCP became clear to me in a letter from them last year as to how work will be made available to the viewing public: " CCP has embarked on a large-scale digitization project to maximize public access and exposure to the Center's collection via the Internet. The CCP web portal is part of the University of Arizona Institutional Repository, and will present works by many prominent photographers, including Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, Harry Callahan, Lola Alvarez Bravo, W. Eugene Smith, Wynn Bullock, Louise Dahl-Wolfe, and Frederick Sommer. We would like to see you included in this prestigious project". No thanks, not until the works are again made available for viewing by appointment as originally promised. I have been in the state of the art temperature controlled vaults at CCP, but what purpose do they serve if the physical works are not made available to the viewing public once again?

[Tin Can]

I imagine they have decided modern film usage is idiocy, thus not worthy and they will time capsule the 'best' AA, et all, and call it a day.

Ivory Tower stupidity.

[Vaughn]

So unfortunate. I only took the opportunity to see work there once -- so great to be able to see the prints themselves. What a loss.

[JMB]

We would like to see you included in this prestigious project". No thanks, not until the works are again made available for viewing by appointment as originally promised. I have been in the state of the art temperature controlled vaults at CCP, but what purpose do they serve if the physical works are not made available to the viewing public once again?


I appreciate this demonstration of character.

[Mark Sawyer]

I suppose this is a condition of many museums; better to preserve it locked away and unseen for a thousand years than show it and have it last only a few hundred years. But this turns museums into mausoleums, and giving access to the work doesn't need to harm it.

I think in the CCP's case, there's an added layer of elitism on top of this. Its administration seems very aware that it is a "world-class institution", and won't show anything that might risk that status. As a result, recent exhibitions tend to be a series of world-class yawners, while access and events are meant for those qualified few on the inside of the academia of photography. The CCP purchased two of my prints thirty-some years ago, but today there's no way I could ever see them.

On the other hand, my house currently has a collapsed sewer pipe, which is having much more of a deleterious effect on my photography than the inside politics of the CCP. Keeping all in perspective... :) :( :confused:

[Mark Sawyer]

The future direction of the CCP became clear to me in a letter from them last year as to how work will be made available to the viewing public: " CCP has embarked on a large-scale digitization project to maximize public access and exposure to the Center's collection via the Internet. The CCP web portal is part of the University of Arizona Institutional Repository, and will present works by many prominent photographers, including Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, Harry Callahan, Lola Alvarez Bravo, W. Eugene Smith, Wynn Bullock, Louise Dahl-Wolfe, and Frederick Sommer. We would like to see you included in this prestigious project". No thanks, not until the works are again made available for viewing by appointment as originally promised. I have been in the state of the art temperature controlled vaults at CCP, but what purpose do they serve if the physical works are not made available to the viewing public once again?

I applaud this and agree. Perhaps it's a rationalization of the digital age; why show an original print if you can just call up its file on a computer? It's certainly more convenient, and the work can be seen around the world. But with so many photographers having devoted themselves to fine printing, alternative processes, and other aspects of the physical print, it would seem that having original works available would be important. The CCP began with the acquisition of the archives of Ansel Adams, Wynn Bullock, Harry Callahan, Aaron Siskind and Frederick Sommer, (the CCP calls them their "founding fathers"). I wonder whether they'd agree that seeing a digital file of their work is an equitable replacement for viewing original prints...

[Tin Can]

I sure don't.

But, we all attend our own funeral here, with our constant digital sharing of analog work.

[Jody_S]

I wonder whether they'd agree that seeing a digital file of their work is an equitable replacement for viewing original prints...

Having recently seen a few Ansel Adams original prints in Toronto, I concur that he is spinning in his grave whenever someone suggests that they just 'make the images available online'.

[Darin Boville]

Maybe two possibilities:

1) The really didn't have many requests to see original prints--too expensive to maintain the capability?

2) They are experiencing damage to prints or even outright loss?

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

I really think it is pointless trying to guess what AA would think about anything today. In the 80's I had some correspondence and phone conversations with him. One thing he mentioned he thought was pointless was the efforts to resurrect historical processes. With that he dismisses the efforts of tons of LF photographers who have spent their careers working in outdated processes. So what? Does that mean having seen some of the amazing work produced in that vain in the last couple of decades that he would still feel as dismissive? Who the hell knows? Who cares? You don't know and neither do I. If he knew the arguments offered by the current admin at CCP to change his bequest would he "spin in his grave"? Are there budget issues, staffing problems as a result, archival issues from handling? How the hell do we know what he would think?

[Tin Can]

Those were the Chicago Public Library excuses for trashing their huge 16mm film collection. They would not let us buy it and they said too few viewed the movies. Despite many people like me who would show 16mm for free to 100's at a time.

In the end trashed.

Only Egyptians had good crypts and those didn't last.

Dust to dust.

[Vaughn]

Maybe two possibilities:

1) The really didn't have many requests to see original prints--too expensive to maintain the capability?

2) They are experiencing damage to prints or even outright loss?

--Darin

Well, the procedure was that one 'ordered' up to three portfolios, and they were brought out by the CCP folks (probably interns) and put into viewing cabinets. One could lean over the prints and look at them thru the glass about a foot or so away. Then the interns would gather them up and put them back. The visitors never touched the prints. Very little chance of damaging the prints.

If someone had already order up the portfolios, anyone present could look at them also.

[Merg Ross]

I really think it is pointless trying to guess what AA would think about anything today. In the 80's I had some correspondence and phone conversations with him. One thing he mentioned he thought was pointless was the efforts to resurrect historical processes. With that he dismisses the efforts of tons of LF photographers who have spent their careers working in outdated processes. So what? Does that mean having seen some of the amazing work produced in that vain in the last couple of decades that he would still feel as dismissive? Who the hell knows? Who cares? You don't know and neither do I. If he knew the arguments offered by the current admin at CCP to change his bequest would he "spin in his grave"? Are there budget issues, staffing problems as a result, archival issues from handling? How the hell do we know what he would think?

This is not about Ansel or what he might think today or have thought in the past. There is a history to the CCP, one that I was close to at the beginning, including the purchase of the Edward Weston Collection.

My concern is related to the departure from the original concept of the CCP and their recent disregard for making some of the finest photography produced in the twentieth century available for public viewing. Just as simple as that. If they have mishandeled the trust of those whose work came their way by budget issues, staffing problems, or a fuzzy concept of archival issues, so be it. Yet another visual experience, one of original prints, is being replaced by digitization. The web use agreement form sent to me from the CCP was seven pages in length. No Thanks.

[Tin Can]

Good for you, and I mean that.

I also visited your web site. I like it's informative brevity.

Thank you.


This is not about Ansel or what he might think today or have thought in the past. There is a history to the CCP, one that I was close to at the beginning, including the purchase of the Edward Weston Collection.

My concern is related to the departure from the original concept of the CCP and their recent disregard for making some of the finest photography produced in the twentieth century available for public viewing. Just as simple as that. If they have mishandeled the trust of those whose work came their way by budget issues, staffing problems, or a fuzzy concept of archival issues, so be it. Yet another visual experience, one of original prints, is being replaced by digitization. The web use agreement form sent to me from the CCP was seven pages in length. No Thanks.

[Kirk Gittings]

Merg this is what I was referring to: "Having recently seen a few Ansel Adams original prints in Toronto, I concur that he is spinning in his grave whenever someone suggests that they just 'make the images available online".

Do we really know what AA would think about anything in 2014?

I have a little experience with CCP. They were a consultant on the purchase of my Chaco portfolio by the U of A a ways back when and I used that opportunity to view some portfolios there.

[JMB]

This is not about Ansel or what he might think today or have thought in the past. There is a history to the CCP, one that I was close to at the beginning, including the purchase of the Edward Weston Collection.

My concern is related to the departure from the original concept of the CCP and their recent disregard for making some of the finest photography produced in the twentieth century available for public viewing. Just as simple as that. If they have mishandeled the trust of those whose work came their way by budget issues, staffing problems, or a fuzzy concept of archival issues, so be it. Yet another visual experience, one of original prints, is being replaced by digitization. The web use agreement form sent to me from the CCP was seven pages in length. No Thanks.


Right. The Gittings posts miss the point. The CCP is violating the trust of several of America's greatest photographers. The institution relies heavily upon the names and accomplishments of great photographers to advance itself as a self-declared prestigious institution, but then it violates the trust placed in it by its founders. The CCP archives are priceless, but the institution itself is wrongheaded, misguided, and fast approaching a scandal.

[goamules]

I agree, the discussion is about how the CCP is locking photographers and historians out of live print viewing. Yes, the vision and trust of the founding donors is being violated. But let's not worry about what Ansel or anyone not living feels. Let's listen to Mark, Merg, and many others still living, and still involved in photography, who are saying the CCP has become elitist and closed door. It looks to me like the staff are afraid to have serious photographers involved, and would prefer to be held in awe by wine sipping "artistes" that really don't know anything about photography.

What to do? Take action. Write letters, write a petition, call the director. I live in Tucson, and I'll tell you, if you try to talk to anyone there you will be stonewalled in the first attempt. I'd love to see a few Karl Struss prints, which they have. I shoot a Struss lens, give workshops, and still know what film is. They told me "sorry, we only allow private viewings for scholars and historians....."

Remember that scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the powers that be rolled the Ark into a giant, dark, warehouse full of closed crates? Is that a "Center for Creative Photography?"

[Mark Sawyer]

Remember that scene at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the powers that be rolled the Ark into a giant, dark, warehouse full of closed crates? Is that a "Center for Creative Photography?"

No, in Raiders they used wooden crates. The Center has nice archival boxes.

Seriously, the CCP is a small part of a university library system, which is a small part of the university, and each of these is steeped in its own politics. The fundamental issue is that the CCP, in trying to be an "elite institution" has crossed that line to "elitist institution". Anyone outside the caste has minimal access. The public is welcome at a few functions; empty seats and galleries look bad. Hence the semi-secretive functions like the "Next Conversation", the "October Conversation", and others we don't even know about. Other than the twitter feed by a few participants, it would never have been known about.

It's not healthy when a university restricts knowledge and access to a chosen few. It's inexcusable that a serious active photographer who owns an uses a Struss lens and has researched Struss has zero access to the Struss prints held by a public institution his taxes fund because he's "not qualified".

But it's an administrative decision...


Do we really know what AA would think about anything in 2014?

I do! He would agree with me about everything. :)

[Kirk Gittings]

I wonder if the Ansel Adams Trust would have an interest in this situation?

[Wayne Lambert]

Mark, I didn't realize that you and I agree on everything, too.

But re the CCP: It is an unconscionable situation, especially in the case of a publically-supported institution. Not the kind of academics we would hope to be in charge. The semi-secretive "conversations" as well as stonewalling and denial of service to those with serious interests really rub one the wrong way. I would support an effort to bring it all to the attention of the University administration.

Wayne

[Kirk Gittings]

From a publicity point of view (and I think bad publicity is the main influencing factor here), The only entity that can have the appearance of "knowing what Ansel thinks" (regardless of what you think of them) is the Ansel Adams Trust. They need to get involved. I don't know if Merg or anyone knows anyone over there.

[Darin Boville]

I wonder if the Ansel Adams Trust would have an interest in this situation?

???? Since when have they supported scholarly work on Ansel? Indeed, they have opposed it at every turn. I'm sure they are perfectly fine with restricted access to the real prints.

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

???? I though we specifically weren't talking about scholarly research but the right of the public to view the original prints?

[Darin Boville]

???? I though we specifically weren't talking about scholarly research but the right of the public to view the original prints?

We're talking about what Ansel might have thought--or what he explicitly expressed before his death--and how the CCP (and the Ansel Adams Publishing Trust) behaves. The differences between last wishes and what has happened seems to be quite large.

--Darin

[Kirk Gittings]

I was about to remove the above post when the site went down. Please remove moderators.

[Mark Sawyer]

???? I though we specifically weren't talking about scholarly research but the right of the public to view the original prints?

For myself, I was referring to access in general.

In the case of "the right of the public to view the original prints", the public has no right to view prints (or anything else) other than the current exhibit, (now an eight-month-long exhibit on a previous President of Magnum Photography), and a once-a-month five-hour showing of a 10-15 prints selected by a staff member, (Photo Friday).

In the case of "scholarly research", I'll pick on Garrett again. He's a serious student of lens history, knowing far more about it than any member of the Center's staff. He owns and uses a Karl Struss lens, has researched it heavily and posted quite a bit about it on this forum. Who on the Center's staff is qualified to decide, "He's not scholarly enough to have any access to the Center's material on Struss"?

Denial of access to pretty much everything to all but a privately-chosen few is a symptom of the CCP administration's priorities and attitude. As is the cliquish nature of the very private affair that started this thread. Personally, I think it's bad approach for a publicly-funded institution, and in conflict with the original spirit of the Center as presented to those who donated their archives to help start it. But it's the administration's decision.

I live about a twenty-minute walk from the Center, but hardly ever go there anymore because there's just not much to go there for...

[Merg Ross]

Good for you, and I mean that.

I also visited your web site. I like it's informative brevity.

Thank you.

Randy. thank you for your visit and comment.

Merg

[keith schreiber]

Just curious if any of you folks griping about lack of access at CCP went to the public gallery talk with John Schaefer and Becky Senf about the founding of CCP yesterday across the street at the UA Art Museum?

Keith (former Tucsonan and CCP staff member) Schreiber

[Darin Boville]

Just curious if any of you folks griping about lack of access at CCP went to the public gallery talk with John Schaefer and Becky Senf about the founding of CCP yesterday across the street at the UA Art Museum?

Keith (former Tucsonan and CCP staff member) Schreiber

Don't see it on the event calendar at the UA Art Museum page, nor on outreach. Don't see it listed at the CCP either. Dare I hope there is a video?

--Darin

[Tin Can]

Secret public talks.

Often done in Chicago.

What you missed it? LOL


Don't see it on the event calendar at the UA Art Museum page, nor on outreach. Don't see it listed at the CCP either. Dare I hope there is a video?

--Darin

[keith schreiber]

The only reason I knew about it was from a Facebook posting by Becky Senf. I don't see it on the UAMA or CCP websites either. Nor was I aware of the event that prompted this thread. My guess is that outreach would be mostly local for events such as these. I worked there in the '90s and one thing I can tell you is that it was rare that anything that didn't have the name Adams attached to it was well attended no matter how much publicity it received.

I have no idea about video. I do remember some events being recorded when I was there but for archive purposes not for broadcast.

~ Keith

[goamules]

Yeah, I would have gone to talk to them....if I was in the "in" crowd. But I was busy in Seattle yesterday anyway taking fine art photography. Instead of waxing eloquent about lofty goals and visions of the CCP that no one there probably realized was just blowing smoke.

[Mark Sawyer]

Just curious if any of you folks griping about lack of access at CCP went to the public gallery talk with John Schaefer and Becky Senf about the founding of CCP yesterday across the street at the UA Art Museum?



The only reason I knew about it was from a Facebook posting by Becky Senf. I don't see it on the UAMA or CCP websites either. Nor was I aware of the event that prompted this thread.

I would have liked to have gone, but I didn't know about it. How was anyone to know about it?

Pretty typical of just what we're "griping about"...

[keith schreiber]

I would have liked to have gone, but I didn't know about it. How was anyone to know about it?

Pretty typical of just what we're "griping about"...

I dunno Mark, you've been around there a long time. Aren't you on mailing lists (snail and/or email) for CCP and UAMA? Both have FB pages too. Maybe the Tucson Weekly?

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.

[Darin Boville]

Keith,

There is nothing posted on CCP's Facebook page. This appeared on UA Art Museum's Facebook page a few hours before the talk:

>>>>>>>>>>
Join us tonight at 5:30pm for a special gallery talk!

To celebrate our exhibition, "The Photography of Ansel Adams," we are happy to welcome Dr. Rebecca Senf, Norton Family Curator at the Center for Creative Photography and Dr. John P. Schaefer (UA President 1971-1982) as they discuss the original Ansel Adams exhibition held at UAMA in 1974.
<<<<<<<<<<

Nothing in the Tuscon Weekly.

--Darin

[Tin Can]

This is same trick many institutions use, to keep out riff raff like me.

After the lawyers, then the bureaucrats.


Keith,

There is nothing posted on CCP's Facebook page. This appeared on UA Art Museum's Facebook page a few hours before the talk:

>>>>>>>>>>
Join us tonight at 5:30pm for a special gallery talk!

To celebrate our exhibition, "The Photography of Ansel Adams," we are happy to welcome Dr. Rebecca Senf, Norton Family Curator at the Center for Creative Photography and Dr. John P. Schaefer (UA President 1971-1982) as they discuss the original Ansel Adams exhibition held at UAMA in 1974.
<<<<<<<<<<

Nothing in the Tuscon Weekly.

--Darin

[analoguey]

I am not the least bit surprised. It's plain from the CCP site alone that the institution now suffers badly from contemporary culture disease. In another case of sketchy recollection it seems to me that I once heard Ansel Adams remark in an interview that he donated negatives to the CCP on the condition that photographers would be able to study and even print from the negatives under supervision. A promise not likely to be honored, I thought.

Wow. Thats incredibly generous of him.


I applaud this and agree. Perhaps it's a rationalization of the digital age; why show an original print if you can just call up its file on a computer? It's certainly more convenient, and the work can be seen around the world. But with so many photographers having devoted themselves to fine printing, alternative processes, and other aspects of the physical print, it would seem that having original works available would be important. The CCP began with the acquisition of the archives of Ansel Adams, Wynn Bullock, Harry Callahan, Aaron Siskind and Frederick Sommer, (the CCP calls them their "founding fathers"). I wonder whether they'd agree that seeing a digital file of their work is an equitable replacement for viewing original prints...

That argument about digital contradicts your comment before it?
Either ways, if they think only digital medium is acceptable, they should auction away the prints or donate it.

[goamules]

Learn to write the English language better before trying advanced debate techniques like sarcasm. It's unclear what your point is.

[analoguey]

Finding sarcasm where none exists. Going by your 'advice' that's a course of Reading comprehension for you, mate.

[Merg Ross]

I wonder if the Ansel Adams Trust would have an interest in this situation?

The interests of Ansel Adams are well looked after at the CCP by Managing Trustee, Bill Turnage. Further, John Schaefer is one of the Trust's three Directors and along with Michael Adams ( Ansel's son) also sits on the CCP Board of Fellows. Ansel will continue to be promoted by the CCP to the benefit of those associated with the AA Publishing Rights Trust. The concept of making the work of other photographers in the Collection available to the public is apparently no longer important to the CCP. At least that is my understanding at present.

[goamules]

Finding sarcasm where none exists. Going by your 'advice' that's a course of Reading comprehension for you, mate.

You point is still unclear, null, and void.


The interests of Ansel Adams are well looked after at the CCP by Managing Trustee, Bill Turnage. Further, John Schaefer is one of the Trust's three Directors and along with Michael Adams ( Ansel's son) also sits on the CCP Board of Fellows. Ansel will continue to be promoted by the CCP to the benefit of those associated with the AA Publishing Rights Trust. The concept of making the work of other photographers in the Collection available to the public is apparently no longer important to the CCP. At least that is my understanding at present.

That's good to know. I guess preservation is more important that promotion. But honestly I'm more interested in some of the other artists from the "other side", i.e. the Pictorialists. If i wanted to see an Ansel Adams print, there are other places I can do that. But some of the other photographers are much more uncommon to see.

[Mark Sawyer]

I dunno Mark, you've been around there a long time. Aren't you on mailing lists (snail and/or email) for CCP and UAMA? Both have FB pages too. Maybe the Tucson Weekly?

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.

I wasn't offended at all, Keith, griping is pretty much what we're doing. I'm not upset or angry, just disappointed the Center has become so secretive and inaccessible, and it's a pretty legitimate gripe.

Yep, I'm on the Center's mailing list, and just double-checked the last e-mail newsletter, (April 4). No mention of the event. Nothing on the Center's web page, nothing on their FB page, no announcement in the Weekly (the local arts/entertainment journal), nothing in the Daily Star, (the local newspaper). Oh, well...

[Darin Boville]

The interests of Ansel Adams are well looked after at the CCP by Managing Trustee, Bill Turnage. Further, John Schaefer is one of the Trust's three Directors and along with Michael Adams ( Ansel's son) also sits on the CCP Board of Fellows. Ansel will continue to be promoted by the CCP to the benefit of those associated with the AA Publishing Rights Trust. The concept of making the work of other photographers in the Collection available to the public is apparently no longer important to the CCP. At least that is my understanding at present.

As I read it, the first half of your paragraph doesn't quite gel with the second half--as I see it the interests of Ansel Adams and the interest of the Ansel Adams Trust have diverged--but I wholeheartedly agree with the words in the second half.

A real shame.

--Darin

[Merg Ross]

As I read it, the first half of your paragraph doesn't quite gel with the second half--as I see it the interests of Ansel Adams and the interest of the Ansel Adams Trust have diverged--but I wholeheartedly agree with the words in the second half.

A real shame.

--Darin

Not entirely divergent. A percentage of the royalties from the Trust go to the CCP for the promotion of Ansel Adams' photography. I think the recent gathering may have been exactly for that purpose.

The unfortunate situation at the CCP is the lack of accessibility to the Collection by a larger viewing audience than presently permitted. I foresee a time of diminished interest in Ansel's work and more emphasis by the CCP on other work in their splendid collection. It will take time for this to occur with the present players in place.

I should add, that Ansel and I were friends for many years, and my remarks here are in no way intended to speak poorly of the man or his work. The fact that the CCP exists is a great tribute to him.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Having recently seen a few Ansel Adams original prints in Toronto, I concur that he is spinning in his grave whenever someone suggests that they just 'make the images available online'.

Not sure if Ansel even knows what online means... "huh? My images will be hung on a line?" :)

[goamules]

I'm no museum curator, but wouldn't you think the largest repository of Ansel Adams works in the United States would show at least ONE of his prints? I've lived in Tucson 14 years, and have been to the CCP many times the past 7. But I only recall one exhibit that had 1 or 2 AA works, for a few weeks, then they were gone. They used to have one AA print upstairs in another hallway, which I could take visiting friends to. But it's gone now too.

Like I said before, acres and acres of empty wall spaces, empty classrooms and "viewing rooms". If someone walks inside without knowing, they would think the CCP is just another university classroom building. If it were me, I'd permanently hang as lease a few AA prints in the large lobby area, or on some of those brick walls. I'd have a permanent gallery or two of classic works, like the Louve or other art museums do, so Tucson visitors could always go see something "famous." Then I'd have rotating exhibits every month, with the rare other artists and genres. Instead of 1 gallery of Magnum's editor's works...for 8 months straight.

[analoguey]

You point is still unclear, null, and void.


Probably why a course in RC would make a difference to you. That said, wayy off-topic.


Not sure if Ansel even knows what online means... "huh? My images will be hung on a line?" :)


Hehehe.
He might have not been surprised though - in his foreword to the later edition books he says 'Electronic imaging is the new frontier'.
Would be fun to see what iconic photographers predict though, wouldnt it?

[goamules]

Probably why a course in RC would make a difference to you. That said, wayy off-topic.


Funny you should think that. I read highly technical and widely disparate data for a living, and write technical training. You may not realize that the onus on clear communication is on the sender, not the receiver. And you're right, whatever you are trying to do in this thread is wayy [sic] off topic. But I'm not going to get into a battle of the wits with an unarmed man. (setting ignore).

[Bill Burk]

I really think it is pointless trying to guess what AA would think about anything today. You don't know and neither do I. How the hell do we know what he would think?

We all have his memory engrams, you know. So we all know what he would think.

If resurrection of historical process leads to new vision and exciting imagery he would be all for it. If on the other hand it led to arguments over which process was better than another, he would say we are missing the point.

I'm kidding of course. That's MY opinion. But my real point is we probably know Ansel Adams pretty well from his writings, he left a rich trove of both words and images.

Kirk, If there's more meaningful quotes from your friends who attended, I'd like to get past the surface. A favorite book in my reading library is "Photographic Communication, Principles, Problems and Challenges of Photojournalism" which is basically transcripts of a series of conferences in Florida.

The Twitter summary of those conferences could easily be the same, Rune Hassner from 1968... "A similar thing is happening now in electronic picture journalism." talking about photographers jumping from magazine to television. And back then, television really did kill Life magazine.

But the transcripts covered so much more than just gripes about electronic media. There has to have been something more interesting discussed there at CCP: Next Conversation...

[Bill Burk]

Toss my non sequitur comment about resurrection of historical processes and what Ansel Adams would think... I didn't know him and if I could guess who might be better qualified to suggest what he would think, I'd look to Merg Ross. And as I re-read this thread, resurrecting historical processes was a very minor topic point.

The main topic, and it gets my goat, is that an organization established as a photographic archive, has chosen to withdraw public access to viewing the contents of that archive.

We always talk about the importance of seeing the original print, in person. We assert that the internet doesn't do justice to photographs. But if the conservators think a scan is good enough for sharing, then I think they would be missing the point.

I have to believe there are members there who feel like the current situation is imbalanced. I hope they grapple with the concept of what scans are good substitutes for versus what they really can't replace. And I think scans can't replace seeing the print in person.

I hope they make prints available for public viewing, in a non-intimidating environment. It sounds like there needs to be a policy change.

[Bill Burk]

I tried to put myself in their place and pretended I worked behind the counter... I imagined myself talking to a colleague... "If I hear one more request for Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico today I'm going to show them Moonrise, U.C.L.A."

I imagine the usual requests from the general public are not varied and interesting.

[Mark Sawyer]

I tried to put myself in their place and pretended I worked behind the counter... I imagined myself talking to a colleague... "If I hear one more request for Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico today I'm going to show them Moonrise, U.C.L.A."

I imagine the usual requests from the general public are not varied and interesting.

When one could still request prints, the CCP kept a few boxes of popular works by Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, and a few other often-requested photographers ready-to-go near the print viewing room. Yes, it was probably somewhat boring for the student interns, but for many people, I imagine it was their one chance in a lifetime to see those original iconic prints in person.

[goamules]

And that's why my longer post still stands: why don't they just display some of the classic Ansel prints? Always. On one of the expansive walls.

Bill's question of hoping they're making good choices to go digital is good. Why doesn't someone ask? Why don't the people that knew Ansel, and the mission of the CCP, start writing emails and asking them? The squeeky wheel gets the grease. If no one comments to them, to the Univ, to the other powers that be, on what they're doing, it's a done deal.

[Bill Burk]

I didn't realize how much this topic meant to me...

Mark Sawyer,

I agree. The chance to view an original print is very important. I would say every black and white traditional process photographer, who prints their own work in a darkroom, should see original prints of high quality. Even those who choose modern processes (digital/scan to inkjet) should see what a good print looks like so they know their process meets established standards (if those are the standards they wish to be judged by). I believe it is important to have a benchmark of quality the photographer can use to know where they stand in relation to historical photographers. Once a photographer has this benchmark in mind, they might be influenced and inspired to create work approaching, meeting or exceeding that quality. Or they might realize they already made it and can turn their attention towards improving the content of the images they create.

I strongly feel that an inkjet or a scan is not a good substitute for viewing an original print. Nor is a scanned file, even if high resolution. But I can suggest an acceptable substitute: An original but alternate print, a different print than the one requested, by the same artist (except for Ansel Adams requests, suggest another artist).

goamules,

I also agree. I think this was a topic discussed at the special event, and from one blog I saw, at least one person had a strong opinion on our side. But time is on our side and the situation can be reversed.

Perhaps some prints in high demand aren't adequately fixed or washed. What would you want then? Require the center to continue to show the print until it fades? I imagine matters are much worse with inkjet prints. Prints from early inkjet printers I owned faded dramatically on exposure to atmosphere and light, I wouldn't want to see that kind of loss in a treasured collection. I believe this problem was discussed at the special event too. I saw a tweet recommending that photographers should write their ink set on the back of the print.

So substitution of a different original print may be a way to solve the problem, if wear and tear is the reason public viewing has been curtailed. I believe an alternate selection could take the place of a requested print, and this practice could mitigate the damage to any specific print in the collection. It would spread the impact of viewing over many different pieces. In this way I believe public viewing of original prints could be permitted in perpetuity.

Prints with unknown characteristics or otherwise suspected of being subject to fading under normal viewing conditions, should be flagged and have their individual viewing time documented and restricted as appropriate.

To continue dreaming... Any of us could visit the center's online site and, using the thumbnails provided, we could create wonderful virtual exhibits. These virtual exhibitions could be posted anywhere, and the referenced prints could be easily pulled on demand for any member of the public... If nobody requests the set then nothing has to be pulled... If it does get pulled, the box could be held for 90 days or so (hopefully there isn't much overlap in sets - but again the substitution plan could kick-in). In that way, popular virtual exhibits might be viewed a few times with limited workload to the staff. If a set gets real popular the set might deserve to be turned into a real exhibit. If the selection set is not that popular, prints would only be occasionally viewed and filed away, or not viewed at all.

[Merg Ross]

Why doesn't someone ask? Why don't the people that knew Ansel, and the mission of the CCP, start writing emails and asking them? The squeeky wheel gets the grease. If no one comments to them, to the Univ, to the other powers that be, on what they're doing, it's a done deal.

Oh, if it were only that easy Garrett! In fact I did write, but no reply yet, or likely ever. Stay tuned.

However, the new permanent Chief Curator of Photography will assume his post in April. He (Joshua Chuang) was Associate Curator of Photography and Digital Media at Yale University Art Gallery. The current Director of the CCP, Katherine Martinez was prominent in the digitization of photographs in her former position at Harvard University. The future viewing of photographs from this and similar large holdings of prints will most likely be online, complemented by the occasional exhibition. Original works will be available for viewing by a select few, primarily those doing research. I'm not surprised to see the monitor replace the print, just find it a rather sad state of affairs if that becomes the only method for viewing historical works and processes.

Merg

[JMB]

Right. It’s important to understand and appreciate that the CCP is clearly a confused status quo institution that is deeply embedded in the contemporary zeitgeist and committed to normalizing mediocrity in new photography. As far as I can tell, its real aim is to marginalize the very kind of art and photography that the institution was built upon. There is very little doubt in my mind that the institution will simply stonewall any criticism of its current trajectory or efforts to engage it in an earnest dialogue over the future use of its important archives. I am afraid that the wolf is guarding the chicken house. The CCP actually wants to bury its archives as living examples of photographic excellence and reduce them to quaint historical relics. It is doing its part to remove some very great obstacles to the advancement of computer screen photography: magical and forceful examples of competing darkroom media.

The proper response to the CCP is to abandon direct contact with it, criticize its neglect of its priceless archives openly in public and private forums, and build counter institutions that eclipse it.

[Jody_S]

Right. It’s important to understand and appreciate that the CCP is clearly a confused status quo institution that is deeply embedded in the contemporary zeitgeist and committed to normalizing mediocrity in new photography. As far as I can tell, its real aim is to marginalize the very kind of art and photography that the institution was built upon. There is very little doubt in my mind that the institution will simply stonewall any criticism of its current trajectory or efforts to engage it in an earnest dialogue over the future use of its important archives. I am afraid that the wolf is guarding the chicken house. The CCP actually wants to bury its archives as living examples of photographic excellence and reduce them to quaint historical relics. It is doing its part to remove some very great obstacles to the advancement of computer screen photography: magical and forceful examples of competing darkroom media.


Judging from my frequent visits to the local Uni's student art galleries, this is spot-on. I have seen absolutely nothing in several years that required any sort of mastery in photography itself; most exhibits could have been shot with an iphone.

[Tin Can]

Most art schools stress concept far above craft or mastery.

Heck some art schools really only talk about art, I know, I went through that type of MFA at SAIC in 2001.

Function over form, what's it all mean bubba?



Judging from my frequent visits to the local Uni's student art galleries, this is spot-on. I have seen absolutely nothing in several years that required any sort of mastery in photography itself; most exhibits could have been shot with an iphone.

[Merg Ross]

And that's why my longer post still stands: why don't they just display some of the classic Ansel prints? Always. On one of the expansive walls.

Bill's question of hoping they're making good choices to go digital is good. Why doesn't someone ask? Why don't the people that knew Ansel, and the mission of the CCP, start writing emails and asking them? The squeeky wheel gets the grease. If no one comments to them, to the Univ, to the other powers that be, on what they're doing, it's a done deal.

I did write, and have received the following from Allie Smith, Marketing Assistant & Digital Projects Imaging Specialist at CCP:

"Merg,

Unfortunately we are no longer able to accommodate public requests to view items from our Collections. The sensitive and delicate nature of the items made it impossible to continue to pull material by request. As a minor remedy for this we created Photo Fridays, which take place on the first Friday of every month, and provide an opportunity for the public to view a curated selection of unframed prints by a variety of photographers from our Collection. The theme changes each month and details can be found on our website under Events.

If you are requesting access for specific research or educational purposes I can direct you to the contact person for that.

Sincerely,

Allie Smith"

[Bill Burk]

Thanks for the follow-up Merg,

I empathized with their pain while putting away a few trays of slides from the family get-away weekend. As I slid the precious transparencies back into their pages, I could tell that each and every one was at risk of being damaged a little by the handling.

And I recall that day I showed my prints to someone who'd had a bit to drink. As the compliments were flying, so were the prints... The entire collection could have been ruined in one transaction.

Photo Fridays, sounds like exactly what I want, although I can't always plan to be anywhere at any particular time, it may be what I have to do.

[goamules]

The problem is they select the prints, you, the photographer/scholar don't. They also select the works to scan and make available digitally. Last time I looked, it wasn't many either.

How would you like a public library (or the library of congress) where you can't select a book? You walk in only on Fridays, and see the books the library has pulled for you to read. Seems pretty bogus, eh?

[goamules]

It looks like Oklahoma is showing a big exhibit of Ansel, they're doing it right: let the works be shown, not hoarded and hidden!

http://www.okcmoa.com/see/exhibitions/ansel-adams/

[Kirk Gittings]

It looks like Oklahoma is showing a big exhibit of Ansel, they're doing it right: let the works be shown, not hoarded and hidden!

http://www.okcmoa.com/see/exhibitions/ansel-adams/

That would be the people in San Diego are doing it right-"Organized by the Museum of Photographic Arts, San Diego".

When it comes to Ansel there is no shortage of shows because he has tons of prints out there in museum collections around the country and the world. I have probably seen dozens as an adult, some really in depth and huge like Ansel Adams at 100 which I saw twice and most recently the show at Andrew Smiths which I have seen 4 times as I take my classes there. Its the other people in the AZ collection that I feel they are short changing the public on.

[goamules]

OK, I'm done posting about the CCP after this one. Like peeling an onion, the deeper you go, the more it stinks.

You aren't "scholarly" enough to see a hardcopy print? No problem, they're digitzing some of these great works. But you want to see a big image, or a little one on your browser? Oh, you want a large scan? You have to be a professor and can only use it on campus! "Presentation [of the digital scan] is expressly restricted to on campus, classroom environment, and lecture use only...."

http://www.creativephotography.org/copyright-permissions/educators-researchers/conditions-research-use

Well, at least Univ professors get to use the digital prints for their lectures free. Wrong again, the UofA CCP charges their own UofA professors and students to use a digital scan! So the public cannot see any live prints, but only browser based scans. And scholars have to pay!

http://www.creativephotography.org/copyright-permissions/services-educators-researchers

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/13430194265_74779b7cef_z.jpg
112774

[Tin Can]

What a laugh and who is to say the digital images are 'accurate.'

Paranoid and parsimonious

Scrooge, as it were.




OK, I'm done posting about the CCP after this one. Like peeling and onion, the deeper you go, the more it stinks.

You aren't "scholarly" enough to see a hardcopy print? Yes, they're digitzing great works. But you want to see a big one, or a little one on your browser? Oh, you want a large scan? You have to be a professor and use it on campus! "Presentation [of the digital scan] is expressly restricted to on campus, classroom environment, and lecture use only...."

http://www.creativephotography.org/copyright-permissions/educators-researchers/conditions-research-use

Well, at least Univ professors get to use the digital prints for their lectures free. Wrong again, they UofA CCP charges the UofA to use a digital scan!

http://www.creativephotography.org/copyright-permissions/services-educators-researchers

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/13430194265_74779b7cef_z.jpg
112774

[Darin Boville]

It looks like Oklahoma is showing a big exhibit of Ansel, they're doing it right: let the works be shown, not hoarded and hidden!

http://www.okcmoa.com/see/exhibitions/ansel-adams/

Hey, if this is the one that MPA is San Diego had on show a few (four? five?) years ago it's a good one. Small but good. They had, if I recall correctly--a very early Monolith and a photo album of Ansel's early work with the Sierra Club. A few early things I hadn't seen before, and I've seen lots of Ansel shows over the years. No catalog though--I love catalogues since you can't take pictures. You start to forget!

--Darin

[Bill Burk]

How would you like a public library (or the library of congress) where you can't select a book? You walk in only on Fridays, and see the books the library has pulled for you to read.

I occasionally find something worth reading on the "staff selections" shelf of my local library. So it's not an entirely bad idea.

I'm excited by the idea that I could easily make a "dummy" show of prints I would be interested in seeing. And we can work out the details anytime later whether or not the "show" ever physically gets pulled and viewed.

[Mark Sawyer]

I did write, and have received the following from Allie Smith, Marketing Assistant & Digital Projects Imaging Specialist at CCP:

"Merg,

Unfortunately we are no longer able to accommodate public requests to view items from our Collections. The sensitive and delicate nature of the items made it impossible to continue to pull material by request. As a minor remedy for this we created Photo Fridays, which take place on the first Friday of every month, and provide an opportunity for the public to view a curated selection of unframed prints by a variety of photographers from our Collection. The theme changes each month and details can be found on our website under Events.

If you are requesting access for specific research or educational purposes I can direct you to the contact person for that.

Sincerely,

Allie Smith"

Just as an update, (I'm killing time on Sunday morning, waiting on a friend), the CCP ended its Photo Friday a couple of years ago. Everything else remains the same...