Hardner Formula(s) For TF-5

[tgtaylor]

Anyone aware of formula's for hardeners that can be used with TF-5 fix? I have some prints that I would like to sepia tone and would like to use TF-5 instead of buying another fixer w/hardening.

Thanks,

Thomas

[Pawlowski6132]

Anyone aware of formula's for hardeners that can be used with TF-5 fix? I have some prints that I would like to sepia tone and would like to use TF-5 instead of buying another fixer w/hardening.

Thanks,

Thomas

I have some sealed fixer that came with my kodak fixer. You can have it.

[tgtaylor]

Thanks but TF-5 is an alkaline fix and I’m not sure if the Kodak hardener is compatible. There are formulas for hardeners in the Darkroom Cookbook for the Kodak type and I ran across another on PF’s website that may be suitable for an alkaline fix but I don’t have the 2 main I ingredients which, although inexpensive, I would have to order. Since the Kodak Rapid Fix if inexpensive, perhaps the best alternative of mixing it myself would be to buy a small package of the KRF with hardener to use with toning.

Thomas

[IanG]

You can't add hardener to TF-5

You shouldn't use a hardener before toning, Kodak used to recommend a bath to soften the emulsion slightly before toning when a hardening fixers had been used.

Ian

[Drew Wiley]

Why on earth do you want a hardener for toning? Doesn't make sense to me.

[tgtaylor]

Ian: Why do you say that? I'm not doubting you as I don't know.

Drew: Toner (Sepia) softens the emulsion and is recommended when fixing after toning.

Thomas

[IanG]

Ian: Why do you say that? I'm not doubting you as I don't know.

Thomas

Hardening can be patchy which normally doesn't matter but can lead to uneven toning. I did some serious commercial research into toners in the 70's &80's and never used a hardening fixer.

If you have used a hardener a pre-soak in a mild Sodium Carbonate solution 2-5% is recommended. followed by a short wash..

Ian

[tgtaylor]

Ian,

I will be toning with PF's Sepia sulphide toner 221. According to PF, "the sulfide bath will soften the emulsion of the print. Therefore, it is advisable to harden the print before it is dried. You may fix the toned print in a fixer with hardener (Cat No. 03-0146) for 30 minutes, with a 10 minute wash to follow." That fixer uses ammonium thiosulphate but also acetic acid and TF-5 doesn't use acetic acid.

Thomas

[IanG]

A Sulphide sepia toner won't be a problem, just be careful as you should be anyway even with a hardener.

I don't us PF but some of their suggestions go against the norm, such as not using an acid stop bath with TF-4 & 5 despite the fact that the originator suggests youbshould.

Ian

[tgtaylor]

Thanks,

Here is what Kodak has to say:

Fixing
Improper fixing is probably the major cause of stains in
toned prints. Use two-bath fixing for best results.
Note: We do not recommend using a hardening fixer for
prints that you intend to tone, because it will make the paper
emulsion less receptive to the toner solution. Use a
non-hardening fixer, such as KODAK PROFESSIONAL
Rapid Fixer Part A only. With some toners, use of a liquid
hardener, such as KODAK Liquid Hardener (CAT 146
4239), is required after toning. (See the instructions for
specific toners under Using KODAK Packaged Toners and
Using Mixed Toner.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

"Harden the print before it is dried", not before you tone it. .... (????).... anyway, I haven't had any issues with TF4 followed by sulphide toners, with just a decent
water bath rinse in between... maybe because I always do gold and/or selenium before sulphide toning... maybe not. Just try it without the hardener. It would seem
to be more predictable that way. I have no experience with TF5. TF4 is distinctly alkaline, so you shouldn't introduce excess acid into it, but it's probably not much
of an issue if you let the stop bath drain off well first, or mix it weak to begin with. I find that when I used acetic acid stop, only 1/2% or so is plenty strong for a
typical work session. With amidol I use a plain water stop, because it's the one kind of paper developer I mix acidic. I discard everything at the end of the day, and never gamble on reuse.

[Drew Wiley]

... or of course, you could just give Formulary a phone call. They're quite responsive. Makes more sense than trying to make Kodak instruction relate to something
formulated afterwards.

[tgtaylor]

Lol...Drew you tone the print after it has been developed and fixed and if you use a hardener you use it after you have toned it. Kodak doesn't call for a 2d fix like PF does (but the toner formulas are similar) just a hardening bath.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Really... it hasn't ever been an issue for me. I routinely use TF4, single fix (But I do mix the sulphide with some hypo), never harden. Just let the prints air dry on screens normal. There may be more than one "right" way to do this. All I'm sayin' is that this works for me.