Ultralight Hikers

[papercrate]

I've read throug quite a few of the lightweight equipment and hiking threads, but I just wanted to see if there are any "ultralight" hikers/backpackers out there who shoot large format and what they use.

I do a bit of hiking in the mountains and through forests and occasionally take my Pentax 6x7 which is a beast and very heavy. I used to have a huge box with a heavy Toyo monorail which was even worse. Looking to get back into LF shooting while out hiking but interested in the concept of doing this in a ultralight fashion.

What do you use? What compromises have you made to keep things extra, extra light? Would love to hear some creative solutions.

[Heroique]

Well, here's the key part of my equipment strategy:

Tachi 4x5 + Schneider 150mm g-claron + Fuji QuickLoad holder w/ 20 sheets.

The disappearance of QuickLoads will catch up to me next year, I think.

The weight of tripods is a special problem, which is why it gets (and deserves) so many dedicated threads. I'm certain I have a greater tolerance for carrying my Ries J600 than most people.

-----
I have never, ever, ever scrimped on hiking boots.

[jp]

I'm not into ultralight hiking; I should put the effort into shedding pounds from my midsection rather than ounces from my gear. I'm not naturally or artificially lanky.

The lightest weight camera I have is my pre-anniversary speed graphic. Seems a good pound lighter than a late model speed graphic and is pretty rugged for a wooden bodied camera, and it folds up into a neat little box. Some lenses if they are low in profile can stay right on the camera when it's folded.

[Heroique]

What items people leave behind is also interesting.

I've left behind my Lee compendium shade, for weight and space savings.

Always a difficult decision.

-----
Water is so very heavy.

A mere quart weighs more than 2 pounds.

If you can reduce the water you carry, and bring a water filter, that eases LF hiking like nothing else.

[ROL]

I can only offer guidance relationally to your question. Going "ultralight" (base pack w/o food = 8 – 12 lbs.) precludes anything but a 6 oz. digital P&S, no matter how you cut it. No pack designed to carry such light weights will come close to being able to carry a large camera as well. It may be possible to go "light" (base pack w/o food = 12 – 18 lbs.), not including something on the order of one of those no movement Fotoman types using no tripod (you'll really have to be creative to be creative with these cameras). The tripod capable of securing a camera for work worthy of justifying the use of LF, may be the biggest bugaboo in this regard. I easily attained UL or L status with Spartan gear except camera, spot meter, filters, holders, film, tripod, etc. on many occasions. With 5x7, my pack never weighed less than 45 lbs., decidedly not UL or L. I travel light, as specified, these days with P&S, or GoPro (http://youtu.be/Iwv3c-AKxYg), because there are a few comfort items I can no longer leave home without: air mattress (ExPed), tent and a pack that can carry 25 - 30 lbs. comfortably. Don't get me started on that extra 2 lbs. for that damned bear canister.

[Ron Marshall]

I used a 3 lb Toho and a four lens kit. It was lighter when quickloads were still available.

[C. D. Keth]

I don't know if this fits into your ultralight hiking (I don't even know what defines "ultralight") world but I've hiked a lot with my chamonix 4x5, one lens (a 150mm), a grafmatic or two, a meter, 3 filters, and a tripod. It makes a pretty svelte kit.

[papercrate]

Wow, great feedback everyone. Ultralight is a definitely a lofty goal for shooting LF. It's more of a novel idea then any real practical use but still something I'm interested in. I've actually been shooting 6x7 for years now but long ago I'd shoot on a big old monorail beast, Toyo pre-G series stuff. I've been building simple box cameras for 4x5 since then which has been fun but I'd like to get into a bit more seriously now. It'd be interesting to see some hikers homemade solutions to lighting their pack (either homemade cameras or modifications).

Don't get me started on bear canisters! Just the shape and size of them are a pain in the ass let alone the weight, definitely put a bit of the wrench in the works for the multi-day hike I did in King's Canyon last summer. Had to cut out a few bits of photo gear I really wanted to take along but couldn't make fit.

Interesting mention of the Quickloads. Unless you are carrying quite a lot of film the weight difference probably isn't too great. Even then if you have a clever solution for unloading/loading your double dark slide holders you could have your weight lower than a Quickload setup. Speaking of which, any hikers have home-made tents or changing bags?

[BetterSense]

Don't get me started on bear canisters! Just the shape and size of them are a pain in the ass let alone the weight

I was able to improve my weight and comfort significantly when I switched from a Super Redhawk to a Glock 22 bear canister. Both shape and weight are much improved.

[Renato Tonelli]

I have been using A Linhof Tech with the 120mm or a 210 G-Claron lens attached for compactness. If the hike is not too long I will add another lens; Fuji Quickloads until they ran out; I now use the MIDO film holder system with mixed results. Tripod is a Bogen Carbon Fiber with a Linhof Head (forget which one - very compact but not light). Pentax Digital Spotmeter, Toyo Loupe, small notebook. Food, First-Aid Kit, knife. (By remembering how heavy the pack is I know I am forgetting some things). An overnight stay adds quite a few pounds - but that's another story.

Unloading and reloading film on location sounds better that it is in practice, at least for me.

The water is the heaviest item.

What I really need is a pack mule...

[Jim Noel]

I solved the tripod problem with a Kodak folding tripod made in the 1930-1950 era. There are several sizes. Although they are very light and look flimsy they are very solid when set up and there is no wrry about virbration. When younger I carried a 4x5 Ikeda, 3 lenses, 2 grafmatics, the tripod plus filters and meter on cross country skis. All of this went into a very lightweight daypack.

[Doremus Scudder]

I make a big distinction between hiking and backpacking.

For the former, which I view a one-day affair, if not shorter, I need take no food. I usually get by with a liter of water or less (when my beautiful assistant and hiking partner carries the water bottles :) ).

I've worked hard putting together a lightweight hiking kit. It includes a Wista DX, four or five compact lenses, filters, Pentax spotmeter and filmholders. I usually carry a 90mm Super Angulon f/8, a 135mm Nikkor W, an Ektar 203mm f/7.7, and a 300mm Nikkor M. All of these except the 90mm take 52mm filters. I carry 67mm filters for the 90mm. However, when I want to go lighter, I'll take a 100mm Wide Field Ektar that is adapted to take the 52mm filters.

My camera, filters and lenses go in a lumbar pack. It has a shoulder strap as well as a hip belt, allowing it to be used like an over-the-shoulder camera bag (it never has to touch the ground). One of the lenses folds up in the camera (a real space saver). Loupe, lens shade, meter, viewing filter, lipstick brush and other accessories go in a fly-fishing vest. Six filmholders go in a separate pouch that I sling over my shoulder. A lightweight tripod goes in my hand, or strapped on under the pack when I need both hands to scramble. Darkcloth is rolled and strapped on to the pack as well.

I could easily make this lighter by cutting down on the number of lenses, etc., but this whole kit weighs in a just over 20 pounds and is really fine for day hikes.

Backpacking is not a lightweight trip for me usually. I carry tent, sleeping bag, ThermaRest pad and often a fly rod. My camera gear for multi-day (3-7 days) backpack trips usually ends up being the 100mm Ektar, 135mm Nikkor, and 203 Ektar and maybe, if I'm feeling ambitious, a Fujinon A 240mm. I take Mido holders when backpacking; one clamshell and 10 holders or so. They are a pain to load and have light leak problems, but are a lot less weight than 10 filmholders. I could always take four to six filmholders and an empty box and reload, but then I'd need that changing tent...

My camera kit fits in my lumbar pack, which is then affixed to my backpack. Tripod gets strapped on too. I take one filter wallet with six 52mm filters and my spotmeter; no other accessories.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

I've been backpacking with LF gear for decades. Gave up on "ultralight" style way back in my teens, when that mean shivering all nite at high altitude without even
a sleeping bag. Henceforward I have become my own pack animal, though probably not as intelligent as an ordinary mule. I'll skip over the medium format topic, because if you are thoughtful, you'll discover that certain 4x5 cameras and superb little lenses actually weigh less than MF gear (the exception would be rangefinders like the Mamiya 7). Where the weight comes in is the filmholders. Quickloads are almost a thing of the past now, so you'll have to get accustomed to either a changing tent on longer trips or rollfilm backs. There are plenty of past threads on these options. I normally use lightwt Ursack bear bags, but did have to carry oneof those obnoxious bear barrels last year, just to keep anal rangers out of my food. Generally I avoid such places and prefer quieter backcounty. When I was a youngster I carried a Sinar system, but then treated myself to a little folding Ebony when I turned 50. I still prefer the Sinar or even an 8x10 for dayhikes,
but both of these are rather bulky and don't allow much food room in the pack - speaking of which, it's far more important to have a comfortable pack than an
extremely light one. And you don't need any silly camera pack - a goosedown jacket doubles as wonderful camera cushioning as well as film insulation. ... And I'm
getting a little tired of seeing some of these ultralight types getting hauled out in body bags when something like a surprise snowstorm hits, or they twist an ankle
and can't keep up body temp. .. might add some more comments later, if I have time.

[ROL]

Speaking of which, any hikers have home-made tents or changing bags?

I use(d) my full length zippered sleeping bag to change at night. It's all still too f54*$@g heavy for me any more!

[Vaughn]

Gowland PocketView (an early one marketed by Calumet...limited movements, non-rotating back). One lens. The Caltar II-N 150/5.6 in a Copal 0 together with the camera weighs 2.5 pounds. Bellows at 12.5 inches, plenty with the 150mm. It is a rail camera and one can disconnect the two rail sections (with a standard on each rail section), and loosen the swing on each standard and fold the camera up flat for compact storage. Set-up and take-down got to be fast and second-natured. But there is a lot to be said about a light wood folding camera -- in its own protective box, quicker set-up...especially if the lens can stay on the camera when folded. The Nagaoka is about the lightest of this type -- 2.5 pounds through short bellows and limited movements, but great for backpacking. The PocketView has only back swings and tilts, but all 3 movements on the front.

My tripod was 7 pounds -- these were the days before carbon fiber...a Gitzo 300 Studex and a Gitzo Ballhead #2. Five holders, changing bag, darkcloth, first a Luna Pro, then a Pentax Digital Spot, an emergency kit (small screw driver, tape, needle and thread, extra allen wrench for the camera), and a day pack that all the camera gear could fit into (minus the tripod). Never weighed it -- probably 20 to 25 pounds. Solo trips into the Grand Canyon for 11 days at a time (in my younger years) and local mountains for a week or so. Last backpack with the 4x5 was locally up Redwood Creek last year...need to get back there soon! I wimped out on my last couple of backpack trips and just took the Rolleiflex (but it is a fun camera to use).

On backpacks I am now saving a little weight and leaving the day pack behind; and going with an over-the-shoulder bag (for the holders, meter, etc) and the camera on the tripod as I wander around (darkcloth all around the camera, stuff sack over it and the camera).

[Drew Wiley]

There is a least one person on this forum who changes film inside a black plastic garbage bag at night. Doing so in a sleeping bag per se would seem to be a guarantee of insanity once it comes to spotting. I once watched the poor stiff hired to retouch AA's prints from his early days using a slpg bag. I just seem to run into too much unpredictable weather to dispense with a real Harrison changing tent. I use plastic liners even inside it to keep film dust free. But I still have some Quickloads left, and the Mido holder system too. But a few recent long trips I've resorted to 6x9 roll film holders - I like the proportion, but focus is a lot more finicky with the smaller film area. I don't skimp on sleeping bags. I've spent more than my fair share of "bivouacs" out in the open as a kid. But you won't get much mileage in the next day if you're exhausted from an uncomfortable nite. I have a superb Feathered Friends Goretex bag for summer and early Fall use, which can be supplemented with longjohns; but I need a new winter bag for colder conditions. Tents are another topic. I have an ultralight for summer use up to timberline, but
wouldn't want to use it in an extreme storm up higher - have a real Bibler for that kind of thing.

[Vaughn]

I use(d) my full length zippered sleeping bag to change at night. It's all still too f54*$@g heavy for me any more!

Did that once about 35 years ago in the Trinity Alps. Never again if it can be avoided! What ugly-looking skies! A changing bag for 4x5 is pretty light, and worth its weight. A changing tent is pretty sweet. I wonder if a couple of short sections of old fishing pole bowed corner-to-corner, taped in the middle where they crossed would make a changing bag into a tent?

[Drew Wiley]

The Harrison tents have crossing little poles just like a real tent. I own two sizes: the "Pup" tent for 4x5, and a big one for 8x10 use. They're the best. I like the idea of simply saving up some rinsed-out heavy black plastic bags like darkroom paper comes in, and doing this at nite. It's just that at nite it tends to get pretty cold, and having your arms inside goosedown or whatever sleeves is just asking for trouble. My tent change-out kit includes some alcohol wipes for finger oil (with nothing added!) and some little nitrile finger cots, along with a sponge. I want my arms bare and clean in there. Usually in the evening I'm either stumbling back from somewhere or trying to clean and arrange my dinner gear by headlamp. Enough to do before scrambling into the sack to get warm. I'm sure gonna miss Quickloads and Readyloads. For just a nite or two out I just use ordinary holders. I'm not a machine-gunner.

[Drew Wiley]

... so tripods. I'm a bit skeptical of 2-ply carbon fiber under rough conditions. I have an original 3-ply Gitzo Reporter which has held up superbly. But I had a pal slip
on a rock with a 2-ply version a couple summers ago, and then spend the next week with two limber pine branches duct-taped on, to replace the broken carbon
fiber ones. Saving that extra half pound just isn't worth it. You can save more than that just by leaving your tripod head home and learning how to go headless. I've been doing that a long time, and it soon becomes instinctive. No problem at all. By the same token, an overly light or cheap view camera is going to prove worthless if it vibrates at long extensions or won't hold settings well. What's the point of carrying LF at all if you come back, after so much effort, with unprintable results? Save weight somewhere else. As I get older I've been forced to discover new tricks myself, though it often costs. I discovered a down sweater at half the wt of my old down jacket. Expensive yes, and needs to be fluffed or lofted more frequently, but a pound here and there starts adding up. Bubble packing weighs next to nothing, and will protect lenses just as well as heavy sponge rubber, maybe better. But I won't compromise on actual packs per se. Nothing worse
than uncomfortable packs or uncomfortable boots. ... and yeah, I never wear anything but real leather boots. Those glorified tennis shoes that people wear nowadays are something I won't allow anyone who hikes with me to use... too much risk of requiring rescue even in a light snowfall.

[papercrate]

Great stuff everybody! Really enjoying the different takes on the weight saving issues. Thanks for compiling these responses to various issues (packs/gear, film changing, tripods) to this thread Drew, really interesting.

Do those who use the MIDO holders think its worth the small savings in weight? For 4x5 at least? I reckon if I can achieve a dust-minimal changing solution down I'd be happy carry 4 or 5 standard film holders and a film box. I'd be interested in shooting with a 6x9 roll back occasionally too but those things definitely aren't the lightest things to begin with.

[gevalia]

Yeah, ain't gonna happen in unfamiliar short-hike (local territory). Camera, say 3 lenses (90, 150, 300), CF tripod, 4 film holders min., pack itself, a few filters and holder, dark cloth, and a few bits. Take the camera off the tripod and put it in the pack. That's about as light as I can get. Now add in water, some rations, a small med kit, compass, extra socks, etc and you have a 20 pound pack.

You might be happy once with an ultralight pack for LF but it won't be a regular thing.

Heck, even when I'm in a local state park, I take more than that just because you never know.

Like someone up here said a while back "film is cheap, life is short".

[Drew Wiley]

My idea of an ultralight pack load would be 60lbs. I've gotten down to that weight only once in the past 35 years, at mid-altitude in warm weather. But at least I had enough sense not to carry a case of BOTTLED microbrew ale on that trip, like my friend did. Good thing... cause the creeks were about twelve miles apart. ... But I dunno about Mido holders. They save only about 30% wt, but take up only about half the space in a pack. Some trips, no problem, and others, a bit of light leak issues in the corners. The cat's meow were Quickloads. ... Packs. Well give me a real US mfg external frame pack, no one of these sack things. I think I have enough of em now to last me the duration. I got a brand new, unused Kelty Tioga (the import junk "Kelty" sells nowadays is no comparison), and traded up an utterly brand new Camp Trails pack for a half-empty qt of varnish at a local garage sale - another pack that cost around $200 back in the day. Then a few more for parts. When all that goes, I'll probably be in a walker anyway... possibly towing a stand camera.

[ROL]

Doing so in a sleeping bag per se would seem to be a guarantee of insanity once it comes to spotting.

Well, now you know!

[Kodachrome25]

If I walk out my front door, turn left & walk for about a block, I am at the trailhead of thousands of square miles of Sierra-like wilderness in my neighborhood central Rockies. Since I shoot in the backcountry for a living, I am well versed in not packing the house, day trip or week long excursion above treeline.

If I am not using my Hasselblad system, I will bring my Chamonix 45N2, 135 Apo Sironar S, Nikkor 200M or Fujinon 240A, two Kinematic 10 sheet holders and a medium CF tripod that weighs under 4 pounds with the head. That is if I need to *really* trim it down. Of course it can only go up from there, but that in an overnight pack with the Harrison Pup Tent still falls short of 45 pounds with food for 3-4 days and nights.

I also have a Lowepro AW 15L that I will fill a good bit more on some day trips with 3-5 lenses from my 8 lens toolkit and add a Horseman 6x12 back. At most my high altitude kit will weigh 22 pounds, easy-peasy. With years of experience, it is not that hard to get a system down. For example, unless I am using a photo-centric pack, I never use one-trick-ponies like lens or camera pouches. I instead use spare socks, fleeces and beanies to wrap gear in....I can't put a lens pouch on my foot if a sock gets wet. I learned this prioritizing from my friends who guide in the Himalaya, to make as many things as you can serve more than one purpose.

Lots of opinions will arise on this...but keep in mind that very few actually make a full time living shooting and *living* in the wilderness....

[Bill Burk]

You can put ultralight gear in a traditional pack. Leaves plenty of room for heavy camera gear. Count ounces carefully, then with the savings you gain by using lightweight options, you may be able to add a pound of camera gear, while carrying the same weight as before.

[ROL]

If I walk out my front door, turn left & walk for about a block, I am at the trailhead of thousands of square miles of Sierra-like wilderness in my neighborhood central Rockies.

Sure sounds like Sierra–envy to me. :D

[angusparker]

Another vote for Chamonix 4x5 either version, probably a two lens kit - 125mm and 180mm (Fujinons perhaps), and a Benro C0180T tripod (no longer made). Otherwise, if I was going really light and wanted film then it would be medium format Fuji GF670 - fantastic folding 6x7 with built in meter.

[Renato Tonelli]

Do those who use the MIDO holders think its worth the small savings in weight? For 4x5 at least? I reckon if I can achieve a dust-minimal changing solution down I'd be happy carry 4 or 5 standard film holders and a film box. I'd be interested in shooting with a 6x9 roll back occasionally too but those things definitely aren't the lightest things to begin with.

It is worth it to me because I usually carry 24 holders (the same composition for each holder). A Grafmatic is also worthwhile - not so much for the savings on the weight (they are pretty heavy), but for saving on bulk.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I was once very strong, but it all went away when I hit 66 years-old with some serious injuries.
Bummer. BUT I am wed to a very strong, young Irish woman. :) While she has no friggin clue
regarding my penchant for photography, she has respect, and more important she has
an astounding sense of humor, and patience.

That said, I do have one rural location where I lifted a seriously heavy tripod into the tree-tops
to use it again in the future. Nobody looks up.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah... I had to sell my place up in the hills due to getting simply too worn out for all the heavy work involved with routine maintenance, but I could literally walk
across the road either direction and potentially enter hundreds of square miles of uninhabited true wilderness. But when you're talking about very steep canyons thousands of feet deep, you think twice about going down those untrailed places at my age, or really, any age. But as summer approached, I was in reasonably short driving distance of three Natl Parks and five large Wilderness areas. It was really early Spring in the lower canyons which I liked best, however, because nobody was around anywhere once the steep stuff was encountered. But from here on the coast it's just a three hour drive to the start of hills anyway, or four to the top of road passes like Sonora or Tioga, so an easy drive after work. I might hike a week at a time in the high country and only come back with two or three shots, so learned a long time ago not to waste film. But still I'd carry a dozen holders just in case. But that was when I was lugging a full Sinar system everywhere
too. Only do that on dayhikes now. I learned to live on one meal a day, or zero, depending on fishing luck. No more of that nonsense. Now I opt for a little Ebony
folder and a better equipped hotel/restaurant on my back. Haven't had much trouble with a 75lb pack up on the high places at all, but getting down around 7000
ft in the Sierra summers does cause me some concern because I've gotten a lot more sensitive to heat than in my younger days. Can't do it all anymore. But if I
do pull off a three-weeker this summer, a younger companion has volunteered to carry that third week of food wt for me, which will sure help. But it's still odd going around carrying double that wt of people half my age.

[Stephen Willard]

I have not read through this entire thread so if I am redundant, my apologies. I used do a lot of lightweight backpacking with 4x5 gear. I have since switched to using two llamas and between the llamas and my pack I now port in around 250 pounds of gear and can stay up to 30 days before I have to return for fresh film and provisions.

When I was first using my back alone in the high peaks of Colorado, the best I could do was 72 pounds, at most 5 miles in, was using Readyloads at the time, and I could last for only three days. I used a bivy bag instead of a tent which is actually warmer than a tent and weighs about 1.5 pounds. I have used bivy bags in the dead of winter at 13000 feet above sea level here in Colorado.

What follows are few things to consider.

The lighter the camera gear the more flimsy it becomes and the more problems you will have with wind and vibrations. However, the biggest problem is caring all of that weight in and then around as you explore the area to find photographs to take will put in a state of depleted exhaustion. Being tired all the time will have a huge impact on the number of images you shoot and the quality of the images you construct. When I switched to llamas the biggest benefit I noticed was that I stayed fresh and my yields tripled.

Here are a few things to consider to conserve energy and stay fresh.

To help manage the weight without killing yourself packing everything in at once. Limit your trips in to 2-4 miles. This will make it feasible to make two trips in one day. One for the camera gear and the other for the gear to sustain life. This will allow you to bring in more gear, more camera power you need to get the job done, and you will be able to stay longer.

Do not carry your camera gear while you explore the area. It will wear you down and your yields will plummet. Instead I carry a small point and shoot digital camera to construct my compositions. I have made a table that I use with a cheap digital point shoot camera. Base on the zoom of the lens I can reference the table to predict the lens I will need. After the first day or two I will have constructed 8 to 10 compositions. I then order them targeting the ones I think are the best to photograph first. I then haul my camera gear directly to each composition and work through all the details and camera settings need to make the photograph. After that it becomes a waiting game to get the right light and atmospheric conditions.

Attched is the table I have made. The numbers inside the table are the zoom factors of my cheap digital camera. W, N, and T stand for the wide angle lens, normal lens, and telephoto lens respectively.

110767

I cannot emphasis how important conserving energy and staying fresh is. Hope this helps...

[ROL]

I have since switched to using two llamas and between the llamas and my pack I now port in around 250 pounds of gear and can stay up to 30 days before I have to return for fresh film and provisions.

Do you have our own, rent them? Please expound on their use. Llamas were once promoted widely in my area as pack animals, but I've only seen one in the past 10 years on the trails. I thought it was delightful, even though I had to step out of the path for it. The children in tow were having a great time. My wife has been after me about llama packing for years.

[Drew Wiley]

It's all a matter of conditioning and acclimating to altitude. Hard not to screw up sometimes when you're panting for breath and setting up a view camera in high
winds atop a 12000 ft pass with rapidly approaching blizzard or lightning storm, but that's what I've done hundreds of time. Swarms of mosquitoes can be worse.
Maybe I'm not hacking my way up a sixty degree ice axe route with an 85lb pack anymore, but yeah, it is important to have time to catch your breath and think
things out.... it you have that luxury. What I found helps a lot is to not carry redundant camera gear you don't really need. Think strategically in terms of lenses,
filters, film consumption, etc. How many shots do you really need?

[papercrate]

But if I
do pull off a three-weeker this summer, a younger companion has volunteered to carry that third week of food wt for me, which will sure help. But it's still odd going around carrying double that wt of people half my age.

Sounds like a good deal Drew! I'd be keen to join along if I was out that way!

How old are you by the way? Sounds like you are still plenty active to me, and not compromising in any way to be ashamed of!

[Peter York]

I don't think backpacking with a 4x5 and ultralight is possible, at least in the sense that ultralighters mean. Like Drew, my lightest pack weight is about 60 lbs, and for 8-10 day trips it is around 80 lbs. at the start. However, I'm a big guy, which means my clothes, sleeping bag, food, etc. add up to more weight. I also consume a lot of water, and carry at least 3 liters with me. A smaller person may be able to get into the mid-40's.

I carry a Toho, which is a wonderfully light, if somewhat fiddly, monorail, and a 4-5 lens kit (58mm, 90mm, 150mm, 203mm, 300mm). I figure if I am going to expend so much energy getting somewhere I should have a lens kit to capture almost anything. Surprisingly, the 58mm lens is getting a lot of action to capture the peaks in front of me. I carry 3 grafmatics, the Harrison pup tent, 3 types of film (B&W and 2 E-6 films, sometimes some C-41), and a Feisol carbon-fiber tripod. My tent is the Big Agnes Fly Creek, a very light 2-person tent that is really a solo tent. My stove is a whisper light. My pad is the NeoAir Xtherm.

With loads this heavy you really can't save a few pounds by using an ultralight backpack. I've seen people on the trail with these, carrying at least 60 lbs., and they were visibly in pain. Go for a good, comfortable internal or external pack. I use the Gregory Denali, which replaced my REI New Star Traverse. Most packs these days are designed with at least a light mentality, so the pickings are slimmer for heavier load-carriers.

I'm also not willing to sacrifice every ounce of weight for no comfort. I carry an iphone for entertainment and a solar charger. The Gaia GPS app for topo maps is stellar, as well as sun apps for determining the sun's position, nautical and civil twilight, and sunrise.

My best piece of advice is to keep eating calories when carrying such a heavy load. Visualization is really hard when you are exhausted, and I'm often tired because I'm not eating enough. When hiking, I make sure I scarf down a power bar or whatever every hour. I also plan my trips so that I have 1-2 days at places of interest to rest and photograph.

A Mamiya 7 would make ultralight backpacking possible.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm in my mid-60's and still have a bucket list of harder hikes I want to do before my 70's. It's common to see older people on the trails in the backcountry, but not
so much in the more rugged areas, and certainly not with view camera gear! I can sense some sea changes coming on, so the clock is ticking. As someone here at
work said, You not only get older, but older faster. But I'm hoping for a bit of energy rebound once I actually retire. Just coming off a minor gout attack in the feet
right now, so a bit behind in conditioning. But usually I try to carry a heavy pack once a week. A generous 8x10 system weighs about the same as my summer 4x5
pack with all the camping gear, and we have some reasonably steep hills around here for keeping the knees in shape. This area has a great deal of public open space, even within a few blocks of my house, if I don't feel like driving.

[Vaughn]

I understand the desire to carry tons of film and multiple lenses...I (and my knees) am just thankful that I have a different world-view and am happy with one lens and a couple images a day!

I always take too much food -- have to work on that.

Vaughn

[Stephen Willard]

Do you have our own, rent them? Please expound on their use. Llamas were once promoted widely in my area as pack animals, but I've only seen one in the past 10 years on the trails. I thought it was delightful, even though I had to step out of the path for it. The children in tow were having a great time. My wife has been after me about llama packing for years.

I rent them for the season, and Stan gives me the same llama every year until they pass. I go for the older more mature and more experienced llamas.

Llamas are like people. If raised, trained, and socialized properly they can be amazing. If not then you will have problems with them just like people. Once I get a pair I fine-tune train them for my particular needs. My llamas know how wide they are with their packs and will not try to squeeze between anything smaller and damage the gear. I trust them 100% with my gear. I know how they like their backs rubbed and what kinds of candy grasses they love. I know how to treat them well and respect the lead llama and yet give encouragement to the tailgate llama. I know how to pace and feed them so that llamas rated at 75 pounds will carry 100 pounds for me. In return, they will give me 150% effort to please me. In less than 3 hours I can make most llama teams my best friends, yet they know who is boss so that we can get the job done.

Llamas are social animals and if you take one he will feel venerable and isolated. If take two then they will feel safe and happy. They will bed with their backs to each other so they can watch for danger in all directions. In the evening I bed close to camp to warn me of approaching grizzlies, mountain lions, and wolves. In fact, their sense of smell, sight, and hearing is so keen, I will get ample warning before danger approaches night or day.

Once we arrive in the high alpine of Colorado and drop the heavy gear, carrying the camera equipment is like a day pack for them. They love it. They love to watch me take pictures, and when I decide to take some time off and climb a high peak, I do not even bother roping them. They just follow me up the peak. They are great companions for me when I am out their for 30 days.

They attract wildlife. Lots of times when I go to retrieve them there will be elk, deer, an big horn sheep bedded down with them. If you go to my website there is a page with photos of my llamas.

[Stephen Willard]

It's all a matter of conditioning and acclimating to altitude. Hard not to screw up sometimes when you're panting for breath and setting up a view camera in high
winds atop a 12000 ft pass with rapidly approaching blizzard or lightning storm, but that's what I've done hundreds of time. Swarms of mosquitoes can be worse.
Maybe I'm not hacking my way up a sixty degree ice axe route with an 85lb pack anymore, but yeah, it is important to have time to catch your breath and think
things out.... it you have that luxury. What I found helps a lot is to not carry redundant camera gear you don't really need. Think strategically in terms of lenses,
filters, film consumption, etc. How many shots do you really need?

Drew, you are absolutely right, conditioning is important. Until I fell two stories off my roof and injured my back, I ran five kilometers every day for 15 years to stay fit. Now I walk 10 kilometers each day. However, over the years I have learned that conditioning is really only a small part of the equation. The big one is both experience and your mental conditioning. Can you emotionally take what the mountains throw at you?

That said, the difference between using llamas and not using llamas is huge regardless of your conditioning, and you will know this instantly should you ever try llamas:).

[C. D. Keth]

If it were me, I'd take a box of film, a grafmatic (or two if you need more than 6 sheets a day), and a couple black trash bags to change film in. If you want compact and light, it's pretty hard to beat a well-working grafmatic over a stack of holders.

[papercrate]

Great observations and advice Peter, thanks!

I know a "true" ultralight weight goal would be pretty much impossible for LF. I wanted to present it more as a novel idea/goal, if not a conceptual framework to work with in a photographic practice (how would my shooting change, how would I let certain shots go and really know in my gut that I am going to use a precious sheet of film on this shot, etc.)

[papercrate]

Good stories and information about the llamas Stephen. Very interesting, thanks for sharing. If I find myself around Fort Collins way I'd love to stop in and see your prints in person, your website doesn't do them justice I'm sure!

[paulr]

My favorite strategy for going light, if there's water along the way, is to bring a compact water filter, and only keep my hydration bladder full enough to get to the next creek. My filter weighs around a quarter as much a full nalgene bottle. There are ones available now that weigh around half as much still , and that pump even faster. I put quick-connects on it so it pumps straight up the hose into the bladder. Takes about 2 minutes to fill up and hit the trail again.

My other favorite technology is carbohydrate gels, although on a long day I don't do well if this makes up more than 3/4 my caloric intake. I like to have a sandwich at some point, and also something salty and greasy (salami, etc.) for late in the day. For some reason this wakes up my legs when it feels like fatigue or cramps are on the way.

This has kept me happy with a sub-5 lb pack on outings like the Teton Crest traverse or the Presidential traverse done as day trips. This is with a point-n-shoot camera, of course.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah... good ole salami sandwich... always interesting to see someone coming up from LA and vomiting atop an 11 or 12 thousand foot pass eating one of those things. No canteen is a good idea too. A 20-something local student died that way this summer in Sequoia that way. With our drought this year I've already scratched a few potential trips off my list. Early season will still have substantial risks with rapid snowmelt; but later, the problem will be no water at all on certain
long stretches. Think I'll invite my friend along again who's into carrying bottled beer.

[paulr]

I don't know the physiology behind it, but I'm not alone among alpine climbers who find a greasy, fatty thing to be mana from heaven toward the end of a long day. And some of my days have been over 20 hours. No issues at any altitudes in the lower 48. YMMV ... try out first where an upset stomach won't mean trouble.

[Drew Wiley]

My policy is to never eat heavy protein the first few days at altitude except after resting up at the end of the day and conditioning the stomach with a little hot
soup first. I've never had any kind of serious altitude sickness myself, but have surely witnessed it many times. Oxygen just won't flow to the stomach for heavy
digestion when it's in short supply in the blood stream to begin with. Easy to digest carbos are always recommended during heavy excercise. Mostly, I'm just not very hungry the first few days at high altitude, so a great opportunity to lose some weight - but then the appetite comes back with a vengeance, and maybe time to pull out the trout pole. Some days I've gotten so caught up in the scenery and photography that I have totally forgotten to eat - then all of a sudden get woozy and have to sit down for a little beef jerky. Everything tastes good up in the high country. ... except once when I was desperate and stumbled onto a meadow of wild onions - hot doesn't begin to describe that experience.

[Peter York]

Vaughn I always wear McDavid neoprene knee pads and custom orthotics. Before the orthotics I could only hike short distances, and I'd have to carry an extra cooler in the car for ice. Those inserts changed my life.

I also carry a gardening knee pad. It works well as a seat cushion and for when the camera is set up low. And a steripen, with some iodine backup, for filtration.

[Stephen Willard]

Good stories and information about the llamas Stephen. Very interesting, thanks for sharing. If I find myself around Fort Collins way I'd love to stop in and see your prints in person, your website doesn't do them justice I'm sure!

I would love to have you, and would treat you well... Yes websites are always problematic for exhibiting art. Did you try the "Adjust Viewing" at the top of the gallery page. That can, to some extent, help for compensating the difference in gammas between terminals.

[Vaughn]

Vaughn I always wear McDavid neoprene knee pads and custom orthotics. Before the orthotics I could only hike short distances, and I'd have to carry an extra cooler in the car for ice. Those inserts changed my life.

I also carry a gardening knee pad. It works well as a seat cushion and for when the camera is set up low. And a steripen, with some iodine backup, for filtration.

Thirty years of full-on basketball (high school, college and rec teams), 10 years of wilderness trailwork, many years of tree-planting/land restoration work, and hiking down into the Grand Canyon with 90+ pound packs has done a number on my knees (and three surgeries including a replacement ACL). When my triplets were born, I gave up basketball to save my knees for backpacking with my boys...though 16 years later I still get the basketball jones walking by a pick-up game. The thing that saves my knees now is commuting to work (9 miles, one-way) by bicycle. If my knees hurt, I know I have not been on the bike enough.

Part of the padding I made for my 8x10 pack is a 14'x14' piece of closed cell foam (backpacking sleeping pad). Great to set things on if the ground is wet or rough -- or to sit on.

[Drew Wiley]

My feet have been miserable my whole life. Was born that way, so I go around in thousand dollar custom hiking boots. But with the price comes quality, so amortized
over the twenty of so years such boots last, they're actually a bargain compared to store-bought. Never had knee or back problems, fortunately. But my hands are
fairly sensitive, so no rock climbing in a long time. A few emergency ice scrambles or class 3 traverses come up from time to time, and I seem to still get thru those
kinds of situations fine. I'm still pretty good off-trail, but maybe that's because I enjoy it so much more than the beaten paths. A good sleep the nite before a
difficult hike is far more important now than when I was young. Really getting hard to stumble right off the trail and back to work the next day. Hopefully I'll stay
glued together up thru retirement and those coveted extra hours of sleep. I do have a bad habit of leaving my shock poles behind, and just ordered a couple more
pairs. Those things really help the knees. In fact, my knees feel better than they did thirty years ago.

[tgtaylor]

My last long distance (165 mile trip) in the Sierra I went ultralight. Pack with food (1 week), 1 liter water, etc weighed 27 pounds. I wasn't packing LF but a Nikon f3 instead but with the same troops and head. Add a few more pounds for the Toyo 45cf, 5 film holders, Harrison pup tent and Pentax spot meter and you could do it at 35 pounds.

Thomas
'

[Drew Wiley]

I'd REALLY like to see someone do 165 miles in the high country with large format anywhere even vaguely around that weight. Do you intend to eat rocks? Scuse me
if I sound skeptical. I've only taken several hundred backpack trips in the high Sierra, anywhere from ultra-ultra-light to downright heavy, and that's a new one on
me. Maybe some of these Muir Trail types just plugging from Point A to Point B will average that kind of mileage per day, or even more, in mild weather. As a kid I
did try living just like an Indian up there, like many of us locals... but who knows how many of them froze to death? I remember interviewing the old man who reminisced about crossing Paiute Pass in his own youth with only a rabbit skin blanket, on bare feet, to trade obsidian on the back side. Now THAT was ultralight!

[Drew Wiley]

... the lightest packin' (exclusive of climbing ropes & gear per se) 4x5 shooter in the high country I know about was Claude Fidler. Pocket Gowland, only one or two
tiny lenses of modest focal length. Shot chromes only. Got some interesting places, and many shots were good enough for book publication, but otherwise, sometimes suffered from the inevitable effects of just too light ... doesn't take much breeze at all to make a system like that vibrate. I like long focal lengths and sometimes big enlargements... so there is a point below which I just won't go. No sense going to all that trouble and having compromised shots. Same reason I won't work with the very lightest tripods out there. Have already seen Gitzo CF's busted to bit with a minor accident. I carry a Gitzo too sometimes, but one with 3-ply CF tubing. And
yeah, there are now some extreme hiker/jogger types who will do 70 miles in a single 24-hr stretch, climb some remote peak, stumble back out literally hallucinating. They'll carry a lt raincoat, a few candy bars, and not much else. They're young and fit, and in predicatable good weather could probably survive an
overnite bivvy behind a rock. But all it takes is a twisted ankle or a surprise storm... .... 80% of the days I've been in the high Sierra in SUMMER the last three
years I've had severe lightining rain, hail, sleet, snow.. you name it. On two of those trips, bodies of "ultralight" types had to be recovered.

[tgtaylor]

LOL...That particular trip took about 2 weeks: we resupplied at Muir Ranch (actually stayed the night there) and again at Lake Charlotte. Exited the Portal after the obligatory Mt. Whitney summit.

Thomas

[Stephen Willard]

My feet have been miserable my whole life. Was born that way, so I go around in thousand dollar custom hiking boots. But with the price comes quality, so amortized
over the twenty of so years such boots last, they're actually a bargain compared to store-bought. Never had knee or back problems, fortunately. But my hands are
fairly sensitive, so no rock climbing in a long time. A few emergency ice scrambles or class 3 traverses come up from time to time, and I seem to still get thru those
kinds of situations fine. I'm still pretty good off-trail, but maybe that's because I enjoy it so much more than the beaten paths. A good sleep the nite before a
difficult hike is far more important now than when I was young. Really getting hard to stumble right off the trail and back to work the next day. Hopefully I'll stay
glued together up thru retirement and those coveted extra hours of sleep. I do have a bad habit of leaving my shock poles behind, and just ordered a couple more
pairs. Those things really help the knees. In fact, my knees feel better than they did thirty years ago.

I understand the need for good boots. I use Danner Mountain Lites, and they run about $300 if my memory is correct, but do they ever make a big difference. Recently I started using those hiking ski poles. I have always viewed them as foo-foo poles that foolish hikers use, but I was encouraged by a friend to try his out. They have made huge difference on both my back and legs. If I can hike ten miles without them, then I can hike fifteen miles with them. I bought my self a pair after I tried his, and I love the poles.

When I fell off the roof two stories up, I landed on the driveway of crushed stone on my side. By some miracle I did not break any bones or do any internal organ damage, but I did rupture a lower spinal disk. I have figured out how to do everything I want to do, but in many cases I have to do it differently. And believe it or not, my 7500 cubic inch internal frame backpack actually helps my back. It acts as a big harness that straightens my spine and pulls my shoulders back.

As we age we accumulate injuries that seem to lurk in the shadows and come to haunt us from time to to time. In some ways they are like old friends. Some people have bad hair days while I can have bad back days. Oh well. But again its NOT the physical conditioning that really counts. Its mostly are mental state of mind that allows us to succeed. Some people incur an injury and retreat to the barbecue pit while other see it as only a small pebble in the pursuit of their dreams.

[Peter York]

I carry one black diamond pole. I can't imagine backpacking without it.

[Robert Oliver]

110805

I've done a few 5 day trips with my Chamonix 4x5 kit... and before that the Gowland All-Moves 4x5.

I practice some ultralight principles, but carry it in a monster external frame pack. My pack weight with food (6 days for a 5 day trip in bear can) is around 30-35 pounds. I carry a tarp as a shelter instead of a tent.

My camera kit weight (including Feisol tripod with light ball head) weighs in at 18 pounds with enough film for the trip.

My goal was always to come in at or under 50 pounds.

I haven't taken a long trip yet with film holders. I used up the last of my Readyloads on the 50 mile Rae Lakes Loop in Kings Canyon National park. The last long trip I used a 6x17 roll film holder on 4x5.

Somebody early on said... lose weight from your body before you worry about losing pack weight. They obviously haven't slogged up a mountain pass with a 60 pound pack recently. Lose as much weight as possible from your pack and your belly before your trip!

A pair of trekking poles are super useful... especially as tent poles for my tarp tent.

[Heroique]

Somebody early on said ... lose weight from your body before you worry about losing pack weight. They obviously haven't slogged up a mountain pass with a 60 pound pack recently. Lose as much weight as possible from your pack and your belly before your trip!

Gives a whole new meaning to "ultralight hikers"!

[Stephen Willard]

... the lightest packin' (exclusive of climbing ropes & gear per se) 4x5 shooter in the high country I know about was Claude Fidler. Pocket Gowland, only one or two
tiny lenses of modest focal length. Shot chromes only. Got some interesting places, and many shots were good enough for book publication, but otherwise, sometimes suffered from the inevitable effects of just too light ... doesn't take much breeze at all to make a system like that vibrate. I like long focal lengths and sometimes big enlargements... so there is a point below which I just won't go. No sense going to all that trouble and having compromised shots. Same reason I won't work with the very lightest tripods out there. Have already seen Gitzo CF's busted to bit with a minor accident. I carry a Gitzo too sometimes, but one with 3-ply CF tubing. And
yeah, there are now some extreme hiker/jogger types who will do 70 miles in a single 24-hr stretch, climb some remote peak, stumble back out literally hallucinating. They'll carry a lt raincoat, a few candy bars, and not much else. They're young and fit, and in predicatable good weather could probably survive an
overnite bivvy behind a rock. But all it takes is a twisted ankle or a surprise storm... .... 80% of the days I've been in the high Sierra in SUMMER the last three
years I've had severe lightining rain, hail, sleet, snow.. you name it. On two of those trips, bodies of "ultralight" types had to be recovered.

You may call them "young and fit", but I would probably would refer to them as "young and stupid". Of course, when I was there age, I too was young and stupid. However, I was lucky and survived those foolish years and have now become "mature and experienced". As a man, I have family that is highly dependent on me coming home alive. If I dye my family will become impoverished, not so much financially, but on many other levels.

So I go the extra mile to insure I take reasonable precautions and do reasonable things when I am in the back country. That is one of the reasons I switched to llamas and my 7200 cubic inch pig pack . I can now bring in the kitchen sink. For example, I just switched from the SPOT satellite tracker to the Delorme SE satellite tracking device. I now can send and receive messages via satellite to my wife and friends, and if something goes wrong I can push a button and SAR will send a helicopter. And the reason they will send in helicopter is because I also bought the insurance that will pay for it. Now that I am shooting in the northern boundaries of the Wind River range where there are grizzlies and wolves, I am fully bear proof compliant including lots of bear spray which is not lightweight stuff. I am now investigating a satellite weather forecasting system that is designed for small aircraft that I hope to adapt for my application. All I have to do is punch in my GPS location, and I can get the weather forecast for where my base camp is. This will help me prep for big storms coming my way, but also it can be used for assessing atmospheric conditions I need for photographing.

All of this may seem excessive to many, but its one thing to solo for five days on a highly traveled trail, and another to solo in areas where there is no human activity for 30 days for one trip of many trips. Everything to me now becomes a game of probabilities. What is the probability of safety if I establish base camp in exposed area where I can easily monitor the lighting condition of the mountains verses in cover just below tree line? These are questions that I assess with everything I do to insure that I come home alive for my family. The level of risk I am now will to take on having a family is much different then when I was a foolish boy. All of my decisions are famed in this manner, and this is what it means to be "mature and experienced".

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know if I've just gotten more conservative with age, having done all the cheap thrills stuff already, or if the predictability of the weather really is changing in
the Sierras. When I was growing up, and in the memory of a lot of old timer cowboys and Indians, there John Muir stereotype of gentle wilderness largely held true.
It rained a lot in early June, July was largely clear except for mosquitoes, August had afternoon thunderstorms, Sept a few light snows. Of course, there was always that odd heavy storm, but people would head out on horseback with next to nothing except a poncho, which double as an emergency tent if you were down in timber. That seems to have been the pattern for about 200 yrs, back till the "little ice age" of the early 1700's. Now of course we know about El Nino, La Nina, global warming, blah blah... But it all boils down to a lot more complicated when plannning a trip or deciding how much gear to carry. Down in timber one can often do OK with a tarp or simple tube tent, or ironically, even in powder snow ski camping. But there are times when that real-deal Bibler tent made all the difference it the world up high. A friend tried a Hilleburg and hated it due to condensation. But if I'm planning on getting to cover in either timber or big rocks, I'll
just carry a light little Fly Creek tent during routine summer hikes. I only put up a tent when I actually need one due to weather... no sense wearing out one of
those cheapie things prematurely. The Bibler will survive heavy snowloading and severe winds.

[StoneNYC]

You may call them "young and fit", but I would probably would refer to them as "young and stupid". Of course, when I was there age, I too was young and stupid. However, I was lucky and survived those foolish years and have now become "mature and experienced". As a man, I have family that is highly dependent on me coming home alive. If I dye my family will become impoverished, not so much financially, but on many other levels.

So I go the extra mile to insure I take reasonable precautions and do reasonable things when I am in the back country. That is one of the reasons I switched to llamas and my 7200 cubic inch pig pack . I can now bring in the kitchen sink. For example, I just switched from the SPOT satellite tracker to the Delorme SE satellite tracking device. I now can send and receive messages via satellite to my wife and friends, and if something goes wrong I can push a button and SAR will send a helicopter. And the reason they will send in helicopter is because I also bought the insurance that will pay for it. Now that I am shooting in the northern boundaries of the Wind River range where there are grizzlies and wolves, I am fully bear proof compliant including lots of bear spray which is not lightweight stuff. I am now investigating a satellite weather forecasting system that is designed for small aircraft that I hope to adapt for my application. All I have to do is punch in my GPS location, and I can get the weather forecast for where my base camp is. This will help me prep for big storms coming my way, but also it can be used for assessing atmospheric conditions I need for photographing.

All of this may seem excessive to many, but its one thing to solo for five days on a highly traveled trail, and another to solo in areas where there is no human activity for 30 days for one trip of many trips. Everything to me now becomes a game of probabilities. What is the probability of safety if I establish base camp in exposed area where I can easily monitor the lighting condition of the mountains verses in cover just below tree line? These are questions that I assess with everything I do to insure that I come home alive for my family. The level of risk I am will to now take on now having a family is much different then when I was a foolish boy. All of my decisions are famed in this manner. This is what experience means.

Wow, I want to come with you! Hah!

The most I ever hiked with was 78lbs down into the Grand Canyon for 8 days, the sad part was much of the weight was my 35mm gear... At the time that's all I shot. It was a Kodachrome trip just before Dwayne's shut down. I thought it would be a good idea to bring the 70-200 2.8 mk II lens with me... Which I hardly used the entire time...

The second time I went I took my Mamiya 7 and 3 lenses, but was packing food for 2 people and 6 days, that was ONLY 65lbs (and she had 40lbs but she's 5'5" but runs daily).

Next time I go I'm bringing LF gear, I'm hopping to be able to swing a chamonix45n2 before I go, saves something like 3-4lbs over the toyo45a. The biggest obstacle is the lenses, when you're in the canyon or any expansive landscape I think big, which makes me want to bring my 75 grandagon which is a beast, in normal use I use the 90mm more often, but I feel like with a vast landscape I would be more prone to want to catch a few ultra wide panoramics. I would only want to being 3 lenses, but would probably WANT 4 lenses...

I used my Mamiya 7's 43mm lens often...

[goamules]

This is my ultra-light mule packing! The red one I'm riding and the bay not drinking water are mine in Canyon de Chelly.

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/47/130580583_c7d7e92ffa_z.jpg?zz=1

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/45/130575903_4a8b728672_o.jpg

[ROL]

...if not a conceptual framework to work with in a photographic practice

If you want a true conceptual framework, don't carry a camera, or much else. That is light in every sense of the word. Don't even frame with your hands. Explore, experience and see with a back, hands, and mind free of encumbrances. Not that I am in any way worthy of emulation (only a fact), but I carried less than a pound in many backcountry excursions in my 20s. I didn't pick up a camera again until my 40s.

[ROL]

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/47/130580583_c7d7e92ffa_z.jpg?zz=1

What terrific riding posture! (Sorry, I guess I shouldn't offer complements anymore)

[StoneNYC]

If you want a true conceptual framework, don't carry a camera, or much else. That is light in every sense of the word. Don't even frame with your hands. Explore, experience and see with a back, hands, and mind free of encumbrances. Not that I am in any way worthy of emulation (only a fact), but I carried less than a pound in many backcountry excursions in my 20s. I didn't pick up a camera again until my 40s.

If you're talking true survivalist light hiker, don't take any food or tent gear at all, just a riffle, some bullets, a good knife, water, and fire making materials, then you can catch your own game and use the pelts as bedding and clothing. Fire for extra luxurious warmth and if you have the time some gamey stew ;)

[paulr]

You may call them "young and fit", but I would probably would refer to them as "young and stupid"

I don't see the need for judgement. It's only stupid if you're oblivious to the risks you're taking. In the world of alpinism, taking multiday trips with minimal gear and a reliance on speed and skill has been the norm for over 20 years now. It's dangerous, but I don't think the statistics show light-and-fast climbing to be more dangerous than heavy and slow climbing. The climbers know the risks and act accordingly. If the weather looks dodgy, they don't go. If it changes, they turn back (and they can do it, because they're prepared to move fast as hell).

I don't have the skills to do a technical climb light and fast by today's standards. But it's an ideal I aspire to. And it serves me brilliantly on hikes. It's allowed me to enjoy the mountains more than I ever did before, because I can go places in a day trip that previously would have taken several nights and lots of gear and logistics. It's about freedom.

I also understand the pleasure of going heavy and slow. Hanging out in a beautiful and remote place is just a different kind of experience.

[Drew Wiley]

I might be interested in one of those satellite rescue beacons if I keep traveling alone in old age. Cell phone reception is of course nonexistent in most backcountry.
But I've been peripheral to several rescues lately, involved in one, and had quite a few discussions with the rangers, and there are real problems with beacons too.
The biggest issue is that, given the surge in popularity of these devices, too many people are crying wolf and the limited resources of rescue crews are being distracted by things like muscle cramps or mtn menu flatulence misery. Another problem is that helicopter simply can't get thru in bad weather, and largely depend
on ground crews (which are seasonal); and in lots of situation, esp climbing rescues, the choppers have to land a long ways away anyway - sometimes an entire
day away or more in terms of human movement on a stretcher. But none of this worries me as much as simply commuting to work every day on the freeway, which
is statistically far more dangerous. Weather is weather. People ....

[John Cooley]

I have made a few multi-night Sierra backpacking trips with large format. With camera gear, I couldn't get my pack much below 50 pounds. Unfortunately, I discovered that 40 pounds was my maximum weight for an enjoyable trip. (And as I get older, that maximum gets lower and lower.) I tried the mule dunnage trips but found them unsatisfactory; I had to spend time and effort portaging my own gear away from the trail and crowds where the mule train dumped my gear. My solution, which has worked quite well for me the last few years, is a Mamiya 7. The llama idea intrigues me . . . but I'm not sure that my dog and a llama would cooperate. I have considered using this company in the Sierras: llamapackers.com To the gentleman who uses llamas, what do you do with the llamas when you want to go on a dayhike away from basecamp and can't take the llamas with you?

[Thad Gerheim]

My vehicles for ultralight extended trips!

110844
[ATTACH=CONFIG]110843]

[Vaughn]

Photo from when I was maintaining wilderness trails many many years ago. We usually hand led the mules as one can not do trail work from on top of a horse or mule (and to limit the impact of the stock on the land), but this was a quick trip into the wilderness to install some signs and haul out some trash. But having the mules meant we could haul more tools with us and eat enough to replace the calories burned.

Now I am usually in the heavy and slow category. Hiking with a pack every day for many miles is no longer my style. Much prefer to head in a couple days then take it slow and explore an area for a couple days before moving on.

[Stephen Willard]

I don't see the need for judgement. It's only stupid if you're oblivious to the risks you're taking.


Your absolutely right. However, I think of what I know now after spending 40 years in the back country, and what I new then when I was young and foolhardy. In most cases, I had no clue about the risk or the poor decisions I was making on an on going bases. For example, how many times have I seen a tent set up by a beautiful alpine lake on a beautiful day. The tent is the highest point in the area shrouded in aluminum poles. If a fast storm comes rolling in, then there is good chance lightning could strike the tent killing everyone in it. In fact, it is my belief that lightning strikes are currently the number killer for backpackers. Did I ever do that? Absolutely. Was I aware of the dangers of setting up my tent in such a place? Nop. Was I stupid and inexperienced? Yep.

This year I will be spending 60 to 70 days in remote places mostly off trail. I can guarantee three things will happen. Murph's law will haunt me every step of the way; I will be subject to at least four horrific storms; and I will have at least one or two dangerous encounters with wildlife. Experience has taught me that these things will happen, and it has given me the tools and know how to manage these risk to a reasonable safe level.

[Drew Wiley]

Llamas can be a lot of trouble if you're not conversant with them. I've seen people spending days trying to locate and corner a skittish one. They can go places mules and horses can't, or aren't officially allowed any more (they're a lot more gentle on the land), but obviously not everywhere a backpacker can go. I gave up on the idea because my pasture would have to have someone routinely watching it - rustlers in that neck of the woods. Horses had to be specially trained for mtn use - would tie them behind their mothers as little colts. Couldn't use flatland horses. Mules had a nasty habit of laying down in streams with all the stuff attached unless you keep them in a train. Cowboying as a kid was fun, but I prefer full freedom of movement in the hills, untethered. Llamas are uncommon in the higher southern Sierras. I run into them more in the Winds, and they're popular in our Trinity Alps area. They've lived around mtn lions (pumas) for millions of yrs, so I'd be interested in seeing what Stephen has to say about llamas and large predators. I've seen dogs and llamas together quite often, but dogs are not allowed in Natl
Parks per se. My cats don't seem very interested in carrying gear for me, but they're about the best substitute I have for a puma at the moment.

[Stephen Willard]

I might be interested in one of those satellite rescue beacons if I keep traveling alone in old age. Cell phone reception is of course nonexistent in most backcountry.
But I've been peripheral to several rescues lately, involved in one, and had quite a few discussions with the rangers, and there are real problems with beacons too.
The biggest issue is that, given the surge in popularity of these devices, too many people are crying wolf and the limited resources of rescue crews are being distracted by things like muscle cramps or mtn menu flatulence misery. Another problem is that helicopter simply can't get thru in bad weather, and largely depend
on ground crews (which are seasonal); and in lots of situation, esp climbing rescues, the choppers have to land a long ways away anyway - sometimes an entire
day away or more in terms of human movement on a stretcher. But none of this worries me as much as simply commuting to work every day on the freeway, which
is statistically far more dangerous. Weather is weather. People ....

Drew, here is the link to the InReach SE. I believe it is the most accurate GPS beacon and versatile device on the market. If you decide to get it, I would love have your webpage they give you so that I can watch your progress on-line in real time. Of course, there is a good chance I will not be home when you are out and about.

http://www.inreachdelorme.com

[Vaughn]

The mules were great for doing the trail work, but I am with Drew -- it is nice not having stock to deal with in the wilderness. I still a single parent to three teenagers at home, so when I go out into the wilderness I don't want to take care of anyone but myself. And if I decide to have a dry camp on top of a mountain, (the photo of me on the mule is in the high country of the Yolla Bollys -- not very high and no granite), or if I want to get off trail, hike down a creek and camp in a small little flat spot, I can.

Dang, I will not be able to get into the mountains for anything more than a week-end until mid-June! But I'll be car-camping in eastern CA the next week, so that will have to do!

[Drew Wiley]

Hard to say what I'll do. On a few of the last trips I had a gearhead type along (putting it mildly - he has very close personal connections to major outdoor mfg corps, so can get just about anything for free to test, just like I get all kinds of shop gear placed in my hands for a potential endorsement). Interesting, but the backcountry
rangers in SEKI don't use either GPS or maps. They have their own radio system, and are expected to know exactly what mtn they're at or whatever. I prefer neither myself, but would of course use whatever I need in a real emergency. Some places are just hard to get into, regardless, namely a lot of the kinds of places I like to visit. The whole subject is interesting. What I personally consider relaxing fun could well be fatal for a beginner, because I'm equipped with both a lot of hard-earned experience as well as relevant gear. I remember one Oct a few years back where there around a dozen very dangerous and expensive rescues just because nobody could move through the snow without frostbite in those silly things that pass for hiking boots nowadays. To me it was just another fun excursion, even at much higher altitudes and much further back than all those folks got trapped at. Don't know when I'll be able to get in the Winds again, probably not until
after retirement. Those long all-nite drives are more tiring than they used to be, and are not good for the back. Besides, I like to poke around on the road some too, chat with the locals in out-of-the way places, and do some general shooting in route. Too busy for that now, so will probably stick to trips here on the W Coast. Still too early to know when the high Sierra will open up, but probably late May will be realistic for front range fun that doesn't require crossing any major
streams. Snowmelt runoff is always a danger that time of year, drought or not.

[tgtaylor]

110805

. I used up the last of my Readyloads on the 50 mile Rae Lakes Loop in Kings Canyon National park. The last long trip I used a 6x17 roll film holder on 4x5.


I believe that it was that very trip that I ran into Robert at Rae Lakes. Some folks came up and said to me: Hey, there's a guy over there with a big camera." It was Robert and his new Chemoix!

Thomas

[paulr]

Your absolutely right. However, I think of what I know now after spending 40 years in the back country, and what I new then when I was young and foolhardy.

I think most of us who played in the mountains as kids survived the old fashioned way: sheer luck.

One of my favorite bits of wisdom from Eastern Bloc climbing culture ...
Good judgement comes from experience. "Experience" comes from bad judgement.

[Drew Wiley]

It's different when you grow up in the mtns. It's just what you do. Simply disappearing into some remote canyon with nothing but a rife or fishing pole and then somehow stumbling out was ordinary. Kids would spent entire summers in the backcountry with exactly zero of what people today would shop for at an REI store.
There were still a few old timers alive who lived as real mountain men in their youths, trapping or herding months at a time with zero outside support, wading icy streams for runoff gauging, prior to modern methods. Old Indians still walked many miles a day barefoot, though otherwise clad. I'd hike all over steep hills completely barefoot. Hot asphalt road surfaces were the problem. ... and yeah, lots of close calls on the cliffs, in caves, rapids, charging bulls etc. Then in my 30's and 40's I'd deliberately hike into severe blizzards and extreme winds with heavy view gear, just for the special lighting prior and after the main event. Now I've either become wiser or lazier - probably the latter.

[Heroique]

…Disappearing into some remote canyon with nothing but a rifle or fishing pole and then somehow stumbling out was ordinary.

Yes, and so it goes – our distant progeny will click this thread and marvel at our minimalism & the intimate connection w/ the outdoors it made possible. ;^)


"Good judgment comes from experience. "Experience" comes from bad judgment."

I like this quote, I've never heard it.

Especially how it avoids saying who's bad judgment one is learning from.

If the bad judgment was deadly, my selfish side hopes it was someone else's.

[StoneNYC]

Yes, and so it goes – our distant progeny will click this thread and marvel at our minimalism & the intimate connection w/ the outdoors it made possible. ;^)

Or laugh at how people like Drew cary 100 ounds on their back instead of just putting it all on a floating disk and having it walk down with you with the nanotechnology they have or somesuch thing... Lol

[Drew Wiley]

No more 90 or 100 lb packs for me. No more. But it's all about style anyway. Just gotta make a new handle for my ole wooden ice axe. ... if any of our glaciers even
survive the current drought! Probably the best invention would be an airtight camera bellows that you could fill with helium.

[StoneNYC]

No more 90 or 100 lb packs for me. No more. But it's all about style anyway. Just gotta make a new handle for my ole wooden ice axe. ... if any of our glaciers even
survive the current drought! Probably the best invention would be an airtight camera bellows that you could fill with helium.

Does light get affected by passing through helium?

[ROL]

Or laugh at how people like Drew cary 100 ounds on their back…

The mules were great for doing the trail work, but I am with Drew --

Obviously, if you're with Drew, you don't need a mule.




My vehicles for ultralight extended trips!
110844

Where's her pack?



I'll be here all week, folks.

[ROL]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey, a thousand (posts)! Whoopeeeeeeeee!

[ROL]

If you're talking true survivalist light hiker, don't take any food or tent gear at all, just a riffle, some bullets, a good knife, water, and fire making materials, then you can catch your own game and use the pelts as bedding and clothing. Fire for extra luxurious warmth and if you have the time some gamey stew ;)

No. Running. I spent more than one night in my Polish bivouac bag. I was young, not stupid. I never got myself, or anyone else in any trouble I couldn't extricate myself from.

Now, I am no longer young, but entirely stupid. My wife's been after me to get a rescue locator for years, but I'd rather just disappear without a trace, just like here.

[Drew Wiley]

At least put a beacon on your camera, so it can be heisted! But I hope I will get recycled into the high country ecosystem, and not get stuffed into a suit and tie
in some urban cemetery.

[StoneNYC]

For the heck of it I wanted to post myself since others had.

As Stephen said, I hike in with my gear, set up base camp, and then hike light with just the camera.

110876
110877
110878

Not exactly LF (Mamiya 7) but next time it will be either 4x5 or if the tax man is nice I get to upgrade to 8x10...

[goamules]

I've got to admit, I don't like the middle between ultralight and mule packing. I've never liked carrying a heavy backpack, since I was in Boy Scouts. But I've done it! That's why I bought mules. They are more trouble worrying about them and such, but a good mule doesn't need much at all. I've had 2 mules tied up just in the treeline beside a meadow with Elk bugling and fighting. Had my little Sierra Designs tent 10 feet away from their highline, where they didn't make a sound all night. In the morning, we tiptoed out to the meadow and shot a nice Elk, then packed it out, leading both mules with our gear and the elk. It was a very easy trip. My hard trips that I remember were the ones with backpacks, sore knees, twisted ankles. There's a reason the Indians started moving around the continent chasing buffalo and changing traditional tribal boundaries. Horses. And why trappers used them too.

[Stephen Willard]

This has been a real interesting string and the postings, I think, have been informative to all of us. I know it was for me. There is something here for everyone. The common tie that we all share is not the cameras, the lenses, the llamas, 40 pound packs, or even 100 pound packs, but rather our strong connection with the land, our need to embrace a level of self sufficiency that most will never know, and a driven desire to share these amazing experiences we have with mankind. The cameras and the tents and just the tools that we have chosen to express our deep connection with the land.

It is my belief to create excellent art you first must have a profound love for your subject area. I suspect everyone here is of that ilk. Thanks for sharing....

[Thad Gerheim]

Where's her pack?

Actually, she carries a light pack with essentials incase we get separated or the the horses spook and take off.
Using horses is a lot of work in itself, but I've had bad knees since high school sports. It once took codeine and tequila for me to make it down a mountain with a heavy pack.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Ok, here is a great lightweight set up.

Go with an Ilford / Walker 4X5 pinhole camera - about 1 pound.
Get 4 plastic holders - about 1 pound.
Get a very lightweight carbon tripod and ball head - around 3 pounds

Throw it all in a pack and go have fun!

The camera is plastic and is tough as nails so no worries with damage. You can even get different cones if you want to have a different focal length than the standard 72mm wide.

That is about the lightest, and least expensive, set up I can think of.

[Drew Wiley]

There's no silver bullet. When I travel with a view camera there are those fleeting atmosphere or lighting shots that I miss due to its relatively slow operation; but in
those few instances I've backpacked with med format gear, I miss far more shots by lacking movements. On the road I can carry both of course. One recent compromise has been to take 6x9 roll film backs, which still allow me a decent enlargement of up to 20x24 in color using Ektar, or a max of 16x20 using something
like ACROS, but nothing above that without conspicuous "what's wrong with this?" beside prints enlarged from 4x5. Not a major issue at this point in my life, since
most of my 30x40 color prints or 20x24 black and white ones are enlarged from 8x10 film anyway. I still practice form time to time with med format, just in case I'm
also forced into something like a Mamiya 7 as I get older, but rangefinders aren't really accommodated to the longer perspectives I prefer, and which generally
need tilt control. But better getting out in the elements with whatever than just stewing about it. I've got plenty of negs on hand anyway to print from, and even
routine day hikes keep adding to the collection of possibilities. It more the experience that counts... just being in the light, taking in the peaks or desert canyons or
seashore, whatever. Same reason people go hunting every fall, even if they end up eating canned soup instead of venison. Having a nice print to remind you of
some wonderful time past, or to visually describe it to somebody else, is rewarding; but I pity those people who sit on their butts hooked up to an IV-drip or
MSG and high-fructose corn syrup and dream up semi-fictitious Fauxtoshop scenes just to sell them. Not the same thing.

[Vaughn]

Eric, sounds like a nice light system...but I think I'd just take the Rollei instead if I was not going to have movements.

[Drew Wiley]

Rollei SL66 had tilt. Richard Kauffman did his famous carbro prints of the high Sierra with SL66 shots. But those things start adding up to just as much wt as a 4x5
system. A buddy of mine packs a Rollei SLR system with him on our long trips together, and he's a wide-angle fanatic. I'd hate to see what one of those systems
would weigh with telephoto lenses! Someone gave me a nice 66 TLR, but it's not really my shooting style. ... I'm still working on that helium bellows patent - the
bigger the camera, the lighter it gets!

[Stephen Willard]

There's no silver bullet. When I travel with a view camera there are those fleeting atmosphere or lighting shots that I miss due to its relatively slow operation

I agree Drew. It is very rare that I ever compose a shot in the moment and actually manage to take it without screwing up. Instead, I have resorted to an alternative method that has proved very productive for me.

Most of my shots are premeditated. After I arrive at my intended site and set up base camp, I then begin finding and constructing a number of compositions throughout the areas using my cheap point-n-shoot digital camera. Usually its between 10-16 images. I then go to each one after and set up the big cameras and actually workout all of the details which are recorded in the database I have on my iPad. This process usually takes two to three days of hard work. After that it becomes a game of waiting to get the right atmospheric conditions. When something starts to develop I will know which composition will best capture what is about to happen. There is no guess work at this point. I know exactly how to set up the camera and take the shot, and in most cases, I will nail it.

Morning and evening light is good as well as the tail end of storms. These types of atmospheric events produce the kind light I need to add the visual drama I am looking for to make a great photograph.

[papercrate]

This has been a real interesting string and the postings, I think, have been informative to all of us. I know it was for me. There is something here for everyone. The common tie that we all share is not the cameras, the lenses, the llamas, 40 pound packs, or even 100 pound packs, but rather our strong connection with the land, our need to embrace a level of self sufficiency that most will never know, and a driven desire to share these amazing experiences we have with mankind. The cameras and the tents and just the tools that we have chosen to express our deep connection with the land.

It is my belief to create excellent art you first must have a profound love for your subject area. I suspect everyone here is of that ilk. Thanks for sharing....

You said it Stephen. In the forest or on a mountain is where I feel most at home. Camera or not, heavy pack or ultralight, it's just a place and peace of mind I need to experience at least once a year. Being based in London, UK, the last 7 years makes the times I do get out in the wild are all that much sweeter. Heading home to the States for a few months end of this week, really looking forward to it.

[goamules]

Nice shots and prework Steven! I use a digital to scout locations sometimes too. But you might want to edit your website tagline about "Absolutely no digital intervention is used in the production of my work" though I know there are different audiences!

I don't shoot color much, but how in the world do you get such saturated colors with just film? Those are some serious colors!

http://www.stephenwillard.com/gallery/popupWindow.php?imageid=SC-WS-13&gamma=gamma2.2&numberOfCameraPictures=4&vistedURLPages=3&retailid=SAW
http://www.stephenwillard.com/gallery/popupWindow.php?imageid=CB-CL-03&gamma=gamma2.2&numberOfCameraPictures=4&vistedURLPages=3&retailid=SAW

[Stephen Willard]

Nice shots and prework Steven! I use a digital to scout locations sometimes too. But you might want to edit your website tagline about "Absolutely no digital intervention is used in the production of my work" though I know there are different audiences!

I don't shoot color much, but how in the world do you get such saturated colors with just film? Those are some serious colors!

http://www.stephenwillard.com/gallery/popupWindow.php?imageid=SC-WS-13&gamma=gamma2.2&numberOfCameraPictures=4&vistedURLPages=3&retailid=SAW
http://www.stephenwillard.com/gallery/popupWindow.php?imageid=CB-CL-03&gamma=gamma2.2&numberOfCameraPictures=4&vistedURLPages=3&retailid=SAW

I know that you may think that it is not possible to get such colors, and that I am indeed resorting to some sort of digital manipulations. However, everything on my website comes from Portra 160 VC color negative film and my darkroom. There is no digital intervention period. There is some loss of detail from scanning my master prints for my website, and to my dismay, the gamma on many terminals may over state the contrast as opposed to the more natural contrast that is shown in the actual print.

So how do I do it? Well... I have developed new methods and technologies in my darkroom that give me an unprecedented control over the light contrast and color contrast of the image. With the new type of light contrast mask I am now using, I can precisely control the amount of light that falls on any element of the negative. It is far superior than the unsharp mask most people use. The new color contrast mask that I have developed and now use allows me to precisely control the hue and saturation of any element in the composition. There are many other types of new masking technologies I have also developed. For an example, I have developed a mask that will allow me to inject brilliance into the image. I will let you think about that one for a moment. All of these new methods and technologies are currently proprietary in nature. However, I am seriously considering sharing this with others by publishing a book.

To see what masks I used to create the two images you noted, go to the data link at the bottom of the applicable image. Scrawl down to the bottom of the data page and will see the listing of masks that I employed to create the print. If my memory serves correct, I think I used seven masks for the first image, Dark Storm and Wild Buffalo, and nine masks for the second image, Painted Alpine.

Again, there is no digital intervention with the production of my body of work.

111065

[StoneNYC]

I know that you may think that it is not possible to get such colors, and that I am indeed resorting to some sort of digital manipulations. However, everything on my website comes from Portra 160 VC color negative film and my darkroom. There is no digital intervention period. There is some loss of detail from scanning my master prints for my website, and to my dismay, the gamma on many terminals may over state the contrast as opposed to the more natural contrast that is shown in the actual print.

So how do I do it? Well... I have developed new methods and technologies in my darkroom that give me an unprecedented control over the light contrast and color contrast of the image. With the new type of light contrast mask I am now using, I can precisely control the amount of light that falls on any element of the negative. It is far superior than the unsharp mask most people use. The new color contrast mask that I have developed and now use allows me to precisely control the hue and saturation of any element in the composition. There are many other types of new masking technologies I have also developed. For an example, I have developed a mask that will allow me to inject brilliance into the image. I will let you think about that one for a moment. All of these new methods and technologies are currently proprietary in nature. However, I am seriously considering sharing this with others by publishing a book.

To see what masks I used to create the two images you noted, go to the data link at the bottom of the applicable image. Scrawl down to the bottom of the data page and will see the listing of masks that I employed to create the print. If my memory serves correct, I think I used seven masks for the first image, Dark Storm and Wild Buffalo, and nine masks for the second image, Painted Alpine.

Again, there is no digital intervention with the production of my body of work.

111065

You're the first person to make me seriously reconsider using CN film instead of Velvia50 and scanning, of course it will probably take me 30 years to develop your skill, and by then... Who knows... Those are originally... 8x10 cropped or what? Just curious.

BTW your prices are too LOW...

[Stephen Willard]

You're the first person to make me seriously reconsider using CN film instead of Velvia50 and scanning, of course it will probably take me 30 years to develop your skill, and by then... Who knows... Those are originally... 8x10 cropped or what? Just curious.

BTW your prices are too LOW...

The frist image was shot using a 4x10 and the second image was shot using a 5x7. I have found that the difference between a 5x7 and 8x10 is not that much with regard to sharpness and tone. However, 5x7 is far more portable and cheaper to supply than 8x10. I buy my film in 8x10 sheets and cut it down to two sheets of 5x7 or 4x10. So I get twice much film for the same price as 8x10.

It will probably take me a few years to make the decision to publish and another year to write and publish the book. I already have a publisher who loves my work that is very interested in publishing my book about the "Power of Color Negative Film".

[StoneNYC]

The frist image was shot using a 4x10 and the second image was shot using a 5x7. I have found that the difference between a 5x7 and 8x10 is not that much with regard to sharpness and tone. However, 5x7 is far more portable and cheaper to supply than 8x10. I buy my film in 8x10 sheets and cut it down to two sheets of 5x7 or 4x10. So I get twice much film for the same price as 8x10.

It will probably take me a few years to make the decision to publish and another year to write and publish the book. I already have a publisher who loves my work that is very interested in publishing my book about the "Power of Color Negative Film".

Thanks for sharing, I'm at the precipice where I'm not sure I'm happy with my 4x5 and would like 5x7, but film availability is higher with 8x10, but I also can't wrap my head around cutting sheet film, I tried it once with some x-ray film trying to cut down 11x14 to 4x5 and went through two sheets and couldn't cut a single sheet properly. Although, I was doing this in my Harrison tent because that's the only dark space I have. I scan everything, but I don't do any heavy editing work that a normal person couldn't do in the darkroom, probably less since I don't even dodge or burn...

Your system sounds like it makes a lot of sense, but why not just use one 8x10 camera with a 4x10 and 5x7 reducing back instead of 2 cameras, wouldn't that save a little weight? Or is it a "don't put all your eggs in one basket" thing?

[Andrew O'Neill]

Your system sounds like it makes a lot of sense, but why not just use one 8x10 camera with a 4x10 and 5x7 reducing back instead of 2 cameras, wouldn't that save a little weight? Or is it a "don't put all your eggs in one basket" thing?

That's what I do. I carry around the 8x10 Canham LW with 4x5 reducing back. I don't have a dedicated 4x5 camera.

[StoneNYC]

That's what I do. I carry around the 8x10 Canham LW with 4x5 reducing back. I don't have a dedicated 4x5 camera.

That's my plan, getting a reducing back when I size up

[Zndrson]

Hey Everyone,

First post on these forums. Can't describe how happy I am to be shooting large format again.

I was wrestling with this topic earlier today. Of course after lugging around a large backpack all day on my hike I found this scenario, but hey, better late than never.

111098

My 4x5 is the Chamonix 045N-1. I'm sure this model has come up previously in this thread because of its weight and compact size, but I haven't had a chance to read all 11 pages quite yet. I gutted my Tamrac Expedition 3's separators and managed to squeeze in the Chamonix and the Fuji 210mm wrapped in a lens cloth. That still affords me some height so I can put 3 film holders on top of the Chamonix and another two or so in another compartment. With some elbow grease I can fit in a might meter as well as a loupe, lens cloth, and lens wrench. May try wrapping the Chamonix in a dark cloth next time.

The Tamrac also has a strap on the back for a travel sized tripod. I haven't used this particular tripod yet, but I just ordered a 3 Legged Monster with AirHed which folds down to 16" and is only just over 3 lbs, so it should fit nicely.

Obviously 10 sheets isn't a ton of film, but this pack is more of a day traveler than anything else. Hope to give it a whirl next weekend.

[Stephen Willard]

Thanks for sharing, I'm at the precipice where I'm not sure I'm happy with my 4x5 and would like 5x7, but film availability is higher with 8x10, but I also can't wrap my head around cutting sheet film, I tried it once with some x-ray film trying to cut down 11x14 to 4x5 and went through two sheets and couldn't cut a single sheet properly. Although, I was doing this in my Harrison tent because that's the only dark space I have. I scan everything, but I don't do any heavy editing work that a normal person couldn't do in the darkroom, probably less since I don't even dodge or burn...

Your system sounds like it makes a lot of sense, but why not just use one 8x10 camera with a 4x10 and 5x7 reducing back instead of 2 cameras, wouldn't that save a little weight? Or is it a "don't put all your eggs in one basket" thing?

Your approach to using reducing backs is a good one, and that is what I hope to do eventually. I have been looking at an 8x10 Ebony with reducing backs and other accessories. This will allow me to shoot 4x10 vertical photographs easily, and I will get the bellows extension I need for my 1200mm lens. Currently, I have to us a home made bellows extension, and it takes a lot of time to setup. The price for the Ebony is around $13,000 which is one of the reasons I have not switched to that configuration yet. There is also a potential problem with reducing backs because the ground glass is moved away and out from the camera body. As a result, there may be wide angle lenses you cannot use with a reducing back. For example, I cannot use my Nikkor W 75mm lens with the 4x5 reducing back on my 5x7 because I am not able to move the lens close close enough to the film plane. Ebony claims their reducing backs will not cause such problems.

I would think it would be impossible to cut film in any film tent. You will need a dark room and a good rotary paper cutter to cut film. If are interested in how I do it, I would be more than happy to post instructions and photographs of the tools I use. I can now cut film and load film in the field and have equal to or less dust problems than what was realized from the Readyloads and Quickloads.

[Daniel Stone]

Your approach to using reducing backs is a good one, and that is what I hope to do eventually. I have been looking at an 8x10 Ebony with reducing backs and other accessories. This will allow me to shoot 4x10 vertical photographs easily, and I will get the bellows extension I need for my 1200mm lens. Currently, I have to us a home made bellows extension, and it takes a lot of time to setup. The price for the Ebony is around $13,000 which is one of the reasons I have not switched to that configuration yet. There is also a potential problem with reducing backs because the ground glass is moved away and out from the camera body. As a result, there may be wide angle lenses you cannot use with a reducing back. For example, I cannot use my Nikkor W 75mm lens with the 4x5 reducing back on my 5x7 because I am not able to move the lens close close enough to the film plane. Ebony claims their reducing backs will not cause such problems.

I would think it would be impossible to cut film in any film tent. You will need a dark room and a good rotary paper cutter to cut film. If are interested in how I do it, I would be more than happy to post instructions and photographs of the tools I use. I can now cut film and load film in the field and have equal to or less dust problems than what was realized from the Readyloads and Quickloads.


Stephen,
I know Ebony is beautifully made, but have you given Chamonix a thought? I'm sure you can get a wonderful camera(albeit a different design), but for a lot less money(even with reducing backs) than Ebony charges.

Also, you're cutting film down from 8x10, IN THE FIELD? I guess this allows you to not overpack on one format(and have none of the size you need), but still?

just wondering, I'm not at the stage of being llama dependent, yet ;)!

-Dan

[Stephen Willard]

Stephen,
I know Ebony is beautifully made, but have you given Chamonix a thought? I'm sure you can get a wonderful camera(albeit a different design), but for a lot less money(even with reducing backs) than Ebony charges.

Also, you're cutting film down from 8x10, IN THE FIELD? I guess this allows you to not overpack on one format(and have none of the size you need), but still?

just wondering, I'm not at the stage of being llama dependent, yet ;)!

-Dan

Dan, I will check out the Chamonix. My biggest concern is the rigidity of the camera especially at full bellows for my 1200mm lens. I got a chance to try my friends 8x10 Ebony with my 1200mm, and it was very rigid.

No I do not cut film in the field. I cut it at home. That said, dust can be introduced when you cut film and when you load film in the field. In either case, it took me a long time to figure out how to do those operations without getting dust on the film's emulsion side prior to exposure. In the back country you do not have vacuum cleaners or showers to increase the moisture and cleans dust from the air. In fact, many places where I change film, it is down right dusty, yet I have figured out how to change film without contaminating the film with dust.

It has gone way beyond llama dependencies. It is a progressive addition :(.

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[David A. Goldfarb]

Another multiformat option is to carry one film size and use cut darkslide masks to make multiple images on one sheet. I do it with one mask to make two 4x10's on an 8x10" sheet, but one could also make a pair of masks for 5x7". It involves a bit more meticulous attention to avoiding double exposures, but you can label the holders with check boxes to keep track, and you can carry one format of film and holders, no reducing backs, cut down the negs after processing, and the masks are just like a few spare darkslides. If you're enlarging, you can even cut back on lenses in the pack.

Some older wooden cameras, like Deardorff, have the option of wooden masks that fit into the back to make multiple exposures on a single sheet. You need a camera with sufficient rise/fall, though, to use this method effectively.

One of the main reasons I sold off my 617 extension back for 4x5" is the realization that with the bulk of the back and camera sufficient to support it, I might as well shoot 4x10" with the half-darkslide mask on my ultralight 8x10" Gowland.

[Bill Burk]

Hey Everyone,

...My 4x5 is the Chamonix 045N-1. I'm sure this model has come up previously in this thread because of its weight and compact size, but I haven't had a chance to read all 11 pages quite yet. I gutted my Tamrac Expedition 3's separators and managed to squeeze in the Chamonix and the Fuji 210mm wrapped in a lens cloth....

I assume that's a daypack you add water and snack and a light jacket and go...

If you want to take it backpacking, that's a good compact setup... would fit nicely in the sleeping bag compartment of a regular backpack... Leaving room for the bear can and sleeping bag in the top compartment... The rest of the pack can be filled with lightweight choices appropriate for conditions. Bring a friend, so you have someone to send out when you get hurt.

[Bill Burk]

It has gone way beyond llama dependencies. It is a progressive addition :(. ...

I always like hearing how you solved the dust problem in your own unique way...

[Tim Meisburger]

Hi David. You can also easily make foamcore masks that fit in the back of the camera. The advantage is they block the ground glass so you compose in the format. I used to carry several in my bag. One for 2x5 panorama, and on for 2.5x4 (which I would pop in if I was running short on film). Much easier than the darkslide trick. After a shot just open the back and shift to the other side, as its just a friction fit.

I also made one for four images on one sheet, but I only ever used that for film testing. I think I described all that one time in th eDIY thread.

[StoneNYC]

Dan, I will check out the Chamonix. My biggest concern is the rigidity of the camera especially at full bellows for my 1200mm lens. I got a chance to try my friends 8x10 Ebony with my 1200mm, and it was very rigid.

No I do not cut film in the field. I cut it at home. That said, dust can be introduced when you cut film and when you load film in the field. In either case, it took me a long time to figure out how to do those operations without getting dust on the film's emulsion side prior to exposure. In the back country you do not have vacuum cleaners or showers to increase the moisture and cleans dust from the air. In fact, many places where I change film, it is down right dusty, yet I have figured out how to change film without contaminating the film with dust.

It has gone way beyond llama dependencies. It is a progressive addition :(.

111129 111130 111128

Is that sponge supposed to add moisture to the inside of the tent?

Or for wiping your finger tips?

Or to prevent rubbing on the tent ceiling?

Does that bag sag N1 ? :)

Crazy setup, your llamas make it pretty luxurious on your trips :)

[StoneNYC]

Another multiformat option is to carry one film size and use cut darkslide masks to make multiple images on one sheet. I do it with one mask to make two 4x10's on an 8x10" sheet, but one could also make a pair of masks for 5x7". It involves a bit more meticulous attention to avoiding double exposures, but you can label the holders with check boxes to keep track, and you can carry one format of film and holders, no reducing backs, cut down the negs after processing, and the masks are just like a few spare darkslides. If you're enlarging, you can even cut back on lenses in the pack.

Some older wooden cameras, like Deardorff, have the option of wooden masks that fit into the back to make multiple exposures on a single sheet. You need a camera with sufficient rise/fall, though, to use this method effectively.

One of the main reasons I sold off my 617 extension back for 4x5" is the realization that with the bulk of the back and camera sufficient to support it, I might as well shoot 4x10" with the half-darkslide mask on my ultralight 8x10" Gowland.

How do you prevent fogging from half the dark slide being open? I would assume some light would come over from the other side, wouldn't it?

[Stephen Willard]

Is that sponge supposed to add moisture to the inside of the tent?

Or for wiping your finger tips?

Or to prevent rubbing on the tent ceiling?

Does that bag sag N1 ? :)

Crazy setup, your llamas make it pretty luxurious on your trips :)

I use the sponge to wipe the floor of the film tent. Anything made of plastic or nylon can build up a static charge and collect dust. A wet sponge not only wipes away dust, but it also helps to remove static charge.

My film bags either hold new film or exposed film. The bag of film in the picture is labeled N-1 and informs me to under develop the negatives in the bag by one stop less at a Zone VIII value. This is done to help chemically control or reduce the contrast of the negative. The older Kodak color negative films worked very well controlling contrast by under developing the negative through N-1, N-2, and N-3. The new films do not respond well to under development, so I use my new masking technologies exclusively to control contrast.

Yes indeed, the llamas allow me to setup a very nice base camp with lots of creature comforts, a great cook tarp, an office, a solar system that can charge batteries as fast as a house wall plug, two cameras, two big tripods, fishing tackle, 13 lenses, a repair kit, and many other things that are out of reach for ultralight backpackers. Keep in mind, I was an ultralight backpacker for many years before I was a llama guy. I enjoy both....

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[Drew Wiley]

There are just all kinds of possibilities masking. All the younger crowd seems to think Photoshop was the Origin of Species when it comes to image control, but don't
bother to scratch their heads when a bunch of PS controls happen to be named for darkroom graphics precedents that were already in use for decades before. But
if you want to get seriously into that kind of thing, Stone, it means meticulous darkroom method. Masking for color neg work is like power steering, and not very
forgiving of a heavy hand. You also need precise punch and register equip once you get past the elementary learning curve and decide where you want to take it.

[Drew Wiley]

Stephen - I take along a few little new poly wastebasket bags which I hold with a clip to the inside roof of the film tent to give that extra margin of cleanliness. I pack a few 100% alcohol finger wipe pads, and some nitrile finger cots, as well as a sponge. The new as well as change-out film boxes are carefully selected and
sprayed with print lacquer months in advance to make them lint and static resistant (and given ample time to fully outgas). So essentially zero dust on my negs.
But for my own needs I still prefer a full-sized 8x10 neg for anything 30x40. Better control is a number of ways. Wish it wasn't that way, because my 5x7 enlarger
is a lot less complicated electronically than the 8x10 colorhead, which suffers from EMI tanrums from all the complicated circuitry, and needs a full block and tackle
operation to get to the bulbs. But additive enlargers are their own thing. I'll probably install a conventional 8x10 Durst subtractive unit as a backup. Don't know if
I'll be able to get together enough of a facility to do workshops - there aren't a lot of people teaching color masking anymore - but when I retire, gotta go either
very small or relatively big, and the latter possibility depends more on one of my potential bus partners who has the ability to remodel expensive chunks of real
estate. Will see. The bottleneck in spreading the word on masking is the scarcity of off-the-shelf registration gear nowadays. Not hard to make if someone has machine shop skills. But most photographers don't.

[David A. Goldfarb]

How do you prevent fogging from half the dark slide being open? I would assume some light would come over from the other side, wouldn't it?

No problem at all, actually, and the masking lines are clean, just like the frame borders on a rollfilm camera. The mask is close to the film, and it's a well-established technique. You should be able to turn up a few threads about it here.

For 4x10" pano format on 8x10" film, the mask is L-shaped, covering slightly more than half the frame along the long dimension (providing a margin between the two frames) with about an inch of darkslide left at the handle end to prevent light leaks through the light trap. Only one mask is necessary, since you can flip it for either side. This doesn't show the film rebate, but it's an example of a 4x10" I've made with a half-darkslide mask--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/3103179918/in/set-72157611396218001/

I think to make a pair of masks for 5x7" on 8x10" film you would have to cut windows in two darkslides, leaving some margin around the edges to make it work.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Hi David. You can also easily make foamcore masks that fit in the back of the camera. The advantage is they block the ground glass so you compose in the format. I used to carry several in my bag. One for 2x5 panorama, and on for 2.5x4 (which I would pop in if I was running short on film). Much easier than the darkslide trick. After a shot just open the back and shift to the other side, as its just a friction fit.

I also made one for four images on one sheet, but I only ever used that for film testing. I think I described all that one time in th eDIY thread.

That also sounds easier to cut than a darkslide.

[StoneNYC]

No problem at all, actually, and the masking lines are clean, just like the frame borders on a rollfilm camera. The mask is close to the film, and it's a well-established technique. You should be able to turn up a few threads about it here.

For 4x10" pano format on 8x10" film, the mask is L-shaped, covering slightly more than half the frame along the long dimension (providing a margin between the two frames) with about an inch of darkslide left at the handle end to prevent light leaks through the light trap. Only one mask is necessary, since you can flip it for either side. This doesn't show the film rebate, but it's an example of a 4x10" I've made with a half-darkslide mask--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/3103179918/in/set-72157611396218001/

I think to make a pair of masks for 5x7" on 8x10" film you would have to cut windows in two darkslides, leaving some margin around the edges to make it work.

I think I see what you're saying, I was thinking it were two separate slides with a divider in the middle... But instead it's a separate dark slide you take the normal slide out then put this special cut dark slide? So you don't have to buy special holders, you can just use any 8x10 holder?

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh - you're still young, Stone. Why not just purchase a 5x7 camera if that is what you intend to concentrate on? I'd love to have one, but really prefer the more
accurate masking and duping controls I get with full 8x10 film. Otherwise, 4x5 is plenty large for up to 20x24 prints w/o an enlarged master dupe - Ektar maybe bigger. 5x7 has a wonderful proportion, though you might find yourself having to cut down 8x10 film to get what you want. But I've (sigh!) come to the realization that my that my geriatric long-haul backpacking format is likely to be 6x9 (rollfilm backs on my 4x5 Ebony). Similar proportions, but lighter wt. With films like Ektar
I can, with extra care, get a decent 20x24, or with ACROS etc in black and white, a reasonably nice 16x20. Would much rather shoot something bigger, but I'm afraid those days are rapidly ending when it comes to multi-day hiking trips. I probably shoot the last of my 4x5 Quickloads and Readyloads this summer.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think I see what you're saying, I was thinking it were two separate slides with a divider in the middle... But instead it's a separate dark slide you take the normal slide out then put this special cut dark slide? So you don't have to buy special holders, you can just use any 8x10 holder?

Exactly. And with the 4x10 mask, you get two shots on one sheet of film.

[StoneNYC]

Exactly. And with the 4x10 mask, you get two shots on one sheet of film.

I'm sold!

[StoneNYC]

Gosh - you're still young, Stone. Why not just purchase a 5x7 camera if that is what you intend to concentrate on? I'd love to have one, but really prefer the more
accurate masking and duping controls I get with full 8x10 film. Otherwise, 4x5 is plenty large for up to 20x24 prints w/o an enlarged master dupe - Ektar maybe bigger. 5x7 has a wonderful proportion, though you might find yourself having to cut down 8x10 film to get what you want. But I've (sigh!) come to the realization that my that my geriatric long-haul backpacking format is likely to be 6x9 (rollfilm backs on my 4x5 Ebony). Similar proportions, but lighter wt. With films like Ektar
I can, with extra care, get a decent 20x24, or with ACROS etc in black and white, a reasonably nice 16x20. Would much rather shoot something bigger, but I'm afraid those days are rapidly ending when it comes to multi-day hiking trips. I probably shoot the last of my 4x5 Quickloads and Readyloads this summer.

Rather than do 6x9 with a 4x5, as you find your age catching up with you, I HIGHLY recommend considering a Mamiya 7 if you don't already have one, they really are the best you could ever get with roll film. And I can say I've not tried a lot of systems, but no one is going to argue with me either the "charts" guys agree with me AND the "proof is in the print" guys will agree too ;)

[Daniel Stone]

Rather than do 6x9 with a 4x5, as you find your age catching up with you, I HIGHLY recommend considering a Mamiya 7 if you don't already have one, they really are the best you could ever get with roll film. And I can say I've not tried a lot of systems, but no one is going to argue with me either the "charts" guys agree with me AND the "proof is in the print" guys will agree too ;)

I'm not Drew, so I can't answer for him. TO ME, however, I found that using a rangefinder wasn't to my working style. I, like Drew, primarily use long(er) lenses for most of my photography, so with such on the M7, I'm looking at a 150 + 210, right? Those are nice, longer FL's, but when you get to that length, I've found that having a ground glass image for exacting composition really helps.

The other advantage to using a rollfilm back on the 4x5 camera is that you can get the movements. Outside of a view camera, the next best thing would be the Fuji 680(which I own/use), but it's NOT a "light" system by any means. But the quality of the lenses is really, really good, and most have image circles large enough to almost cover 4x5 I'd reckon!

If one can work with the limitations of a slip-on viewfinder to see composition/framing with those longer lenses, then more power to them.

But I agree with you, the M7 glass is first-rate, very sharp. I've made some wonderful 16x20 enlargements from 6x7 color and b/w negatives that really have a "wow, this is rollfilm?" quality to them. Especially with a film like Fuji Acros or Tmax 100.

-Dan

[StoneNYC]

I'm not Drew, so I can't answer for him. TO ME, however, I found that using a rangefinder wasn't to my working style. I, like Drew, primarily use long(er) lenses for most of my photography, so with such on the M7, I'm looking at a 150 + 210, right? Those are nice, longer FL's, but when you get to that length, I've found that having a ground glass image for exacting composition really helps.

The other advantage to using a rollfilm back on the 4x5 camera is that you can get the movements. Outside of a view camera, the next best thing would be the Fuji 680(which I own/use), but it's NOT a "light" system by any means. But the quality of the lenses is really, really good, and most have image circles large enough to almost cover 4x5 I'd reckon!

If one can work with the limitations of a slip-on viewfinder to see composition/framing with those longer lenses, then more power to them.

But I agree with you, the M7 glass is first-rate, very sharp. I've made some wonderful 16x20 enlargements from 6x7 color and b/w negatives that really have a "wow, this is rollfilm?" quality to them. Especially with a film like Fuji Acros or Tmax 100.

-Dan

Oh I certainly agree the loss of movements wouldn't be ideal, but I'm saying if Drew lost the MOVEMENTS of his body and couldn't handle the heavy hikes it's the ideal light camera.

I didn't find it all that difficult to use the Mamiya 7 for composition at all. I own the 43mm, 65mm and 150mm lenses, the 210mm needs a separate viewfinder for frame-lines that gives you that "through the lens" look, as the viewfinder is a mini version of the lens with distortion and all, the 150mm has one but I never got it, the frame lines are small in the standard RF window, it's my favorite model lens when I'm not using my RZ67 system, I shoot it wide open for some really great Bokeh, almost petzval-esc but most people would never handhold wide open, I'm just crazy like that. But as for landscapes, it seems to be just the right amount of reach for most Ridgeline shots etc.

Mods please don't be mad, just that it's part of the discussion.

Here's a long exposure shot. These mountains were really far away, I can't be certain but maybe 2 days hike, you'd have to leave the grand canyon, hike a bit, then go into another canyon, then hike back out and then up these ones to get there.

Provia100f f/11 (or f/22) @ 2-5 minutes?

111219

Despite the poor IQ of the small JPG, the ridge line is quite crisp.

At the focal lengths Drew talks about shooting, I can't imagine he is shooting a lot if close objects anyway so perhaps movements aren't that important.

Drew? Want to shed some light and get us back on track for the discussion now that I've derailed it?

[Drew Wiley]

Thanks for the suggestion, Stone. But I tend to visualize things long, and the M7 is really more appropriate for wide angle work, like other rangefinders. And I find one of the most important features is tilt and rise, otherwise your only depth of field control is stopping further down than ideal, and for verticals you've got nuthin' (common situation up among the crags). And 6x9 is in fact slightly bigger - enough to make a difference it the print. One of my favorite lenses for 6x9 in the mtns is a 300M; but my Ebony will handle up to my 360A without a tophat board (it's the nice' n' light double extension 4x5, not the heavier triple extension model). ... Now I do understand that the M7 is a very little nice camera, and if someone want to sell me a clean one real cheap... but otherwise, I practice with my Pentax 6x7 and comparable focal length lenses from time to time, just in case... But the results in print tend to disappoint me compared to 4x5 and even 6x9, and it ain't the fault of the P67 lenses - some of them are plenty crisp enough - it's the lack of movements. The P67 is also nice using a 300mm lens for infinity pot shots from the highway, but that lens is basically a cannon barrel that needs just as heavy a tripod as the 8x10. Vacation travel is a different subject, cause it annoys my wife to set up a tripod and make her wait, so an M7 would be ideal in those situations.

[Drew Wiley]

... and thanks again for your concern, Stone, but I sure ain't that decrepit yet. I've got a bad coincidence right now of rheumatism ("normal" in Feb) plus gout, but
have been nuking myself with cherry juice, fresh blueberries, and dried cranberries the past few days and am nearly back to normal (if I'm not, you'll know it cause
I'll be spending too much time at the desk and annoying everyone on the forum). Taking a minor foot relief break at the moment, then back to some catch up work.
But another problem with M7 is that I'd had to carry two bodies, cause I switch up color and b&w shooting. Two roll film back is more compact and certainly more
affordable than two M7 bodies. On vacations sometimes I carry two P67 bodies and three lenses plus tripod in a simple shoulder bag for up to a few miles at a time,
no issue. But when you've already got a week or two of supplies in a backpack you start watching excess gear wt. But you know the saying, you come into life
in diapers and go out in diapers, begin with 35mm and end with 35mm. But I'm still lugging twice the wt of people half my age.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh missed another comment, Stone, but I do shoot a lot of closeup work, enough the dictate my preference for routine use of close-range corrected lenses like
G-Clarons and Fuji A's in my 8x10 as well as 4x5 kits. Many of my prints involve subjects printed far bigger than life-sized, and view camera movement are essential.

[StoneNYC]

Understood Drew, just understand the Mamiya 7 is lighter than my Canon 1V 35mm so you might not have to go out being a 35mm shooter ;)

Be well and get healthy already! ;)

[angusparker]

Rather than do 6x9 with a 4x5, as you find your age catching up with you, I HIGHLY recommend considering a Mamiya 7 if you don't already have one, they really are the best you could ever get with roll film. And I can say I've not tried a lot of systems, but no one is going to argue with me either the "charts" guys agree with me AND the "proof is in the print" guys will agree too ;)

Or go the Texas Leica route aka a Fuji GF690 - fabulous 90mm lens (about 40mm in 35mm equivalent) and 6x9 format. Simple to load and no electronic parts to break! No movements though.....

[Stephen Willard]

Stephen - I take along a few little new poly wastebasket bags which I hold with a clip to the inside roof of the film tent to give that extra margin of cleanliness. I pack a few 100% alcohol finger wipe pads, and some nitrile finger cots, as well as a sponge. The new as well as change-out film boxes are carefully selected and
sprayed with print lacquer months in advance to make them lint and static resistant (and given ample time to fully outgas). So essentially zero dust on my negs.
But for my own needs I still prefer a full-sized 8x10 neg for anything 30x40. Better control is a number of ways. Wish it wasn't that way, because my 5x7 enlarger
is a lot less complicated electronically than the 8x10 colorhead, which suffers from EMI tanrums from all the complicated circuitry, and needs a full block and tackle
operation to get to the bulbs. But additive enlargers are their own thing. I'll probably install a conventional 8x10 Durst subtractive unit as a backup. Don't know if
I'll be able to get together enough of a facility to do workshops - there aren't a lot of people teaching color masking anymore - but when I retire, gotta go either
very small or relatively big, and the latter possibility depends more on one of my potential bus partners who has the ability to remodel expensive chunks of real
estate. Will see. The bottleneck in spreading the word on masking is the scarcity of off-the-shelf registration gear nowadays. Not hard to make if someone has machine shop skills. But most photographers don't.

Hey Drew thanks for the excellent suggests for loading film. I will give some of them a try.

In early spring and late fall I shoot from the car because fall colors are at lower elevations. Recently, I purchased a travel trailer to replace my bivy bag and sleeping on the roadside. I really love it. I can bring my wife and cats. It has all of the creature comforts of home including a stereo system, a color TV, an air conditioner, a shower, a heating system, and many other things.

My yields from shooting from the road are far greater than in the back country with my llamas. Someday I will become to old to do back country work. At that point I will switch exclusively to shooting from my travel trailer. You can purchase used travel trailers very inexpensively unless you buy an Airstream. Airstreams are well made for sure, but they are expensive new or used. The nice thing about travel trailers is that you can lock everything up without concern of someone steeling your gear at your campsite. This will open new areas for you to photograph such as national parks without incurring the cost of hotels and dining out. If you should decide to purchase one, then send me a message, and I can share my experiences with you to save you time and money.

I do 30x40 enlargements from my 5x7 all the time. To me they are pretty sharp. I have even done 30x40 enlargements from my 4x5. Although they are not as sharp as my 5x7 they are sufficient for selling. I have never had a customer complain or even noticed the difference. That said, sometimes the format chooses you. You have no control over it. Looking though the back of an 8x10 is a completely different experience for sure:o.

I have an 10x10 subtractive color enlarger. It is real easy to change the bulbs and use. I has tons of built-in adjustments that make aligning the enlarger easy, and the 2000 watt color head produces exposure times that are reasonable short. I have never used or seen an additive system before.

Just for the record I love reading your posting. They are jammed packed with good suggestions and information, and I do appreciate the help you gave me when I was trying to figure out how to do color negative masking. Thanks.

[Stephen Willard]

I'm sold!

Keep in mind with 4x10 many lenses that cover 5x7 will cover 4x10. There are even some 4x5 lenses that will also work. You will have to try them to see if they work. If you buy used then make sure they will except returns just in case they do cover 4x10. This will save you lots of money not having to buy expensive big heavy lenses that will cover 8x10. If you want, I can send a list of smaller lenses I have found that cover 4x10.

It is important to note the 4x10 masking slide is offset to the sides so that you can get two exposures. If you fail to either raise or lower the back or front standard so that the longitudinal axis of the lens is centered on the 4x10 masking slide, then you will get vignetting if are using a 4x5 or 5x7 lens. These lenses will only cover 4x10 when everything is dead center.

Of course, if you are using 8x10 lenses, then its less of a problem. However, it is still a good idea to center align 8x10 lenses as well because the sweet spot of all lenses is dead center.

Hope this helps...

PS. Stone the reason I bought my Schneider 150mm HM lens is because it was the only 4x5/5x7 150mm lens on the market that would cover my 4x10 unless you bought the very big expensive 8x10 Nikkor SW 150mm lens.

[StoneNYC]

Keep in mind with 4x10 many lenses that cover 5x7 will cover 4x10. There are even some 4x5 lenses that will also work. You will have to try them to see if they work. If you buy used then make sure they will except returns just in case they do cover 4x10. This will save you lots of money not having to buy expensive big heavy lenses that will cover 8x10.

It is important to note the 4x10 masking slide is offset to the sides so that you can get two exposures. If you fail to either to raise or lower the back or front standard so that the longitudinal axis of the lens is centered on the 4x10 masking slide, then you will get vignetting if are using a 4x5 or 5x7 lens. These lenses will only cover 4x10 when everything is dead center.

Of course, if you are using 8x10 lenses, then its less of a problem. However, it is still a good idea to center align 8x10 lenses as well because the sweet spot of all lenses is dead center.

Hope this helps...

PS. Stone the reason I bought my Schneider 150mm HM lens is because it was the only 4x5/5x7 150mm lens that would cover my 4x10 unless you bought the very big expensive 8x10 Nikkor SW 150mm lens.

All very good info.

I was relatively aware that I would need to keep the lens center by adjusting the standard if using the mask, but it's a good reminder. And the idea of using a 5x7 IC for the 4x10 to keep things light is a great idea.

Still figuring out the lens lineup :)

[Kodachrome25]

Great observations and advice Peter, thanks!

I know a "true" ultralight weight goal would be pretty much impossible for LF. I wanted to present it more as a novel idea/goal, if not a conceptual framework to work with in a photographic practice (how would my shooting change, how would I let certain shots go and really know in my gut that I am going to use a precious sheet of film on this shot, etc.)

I knew this thread would get an "Interesting" slew of replies if I walked away from it for a bit...

I'm not sure what Peter does for a living, but mine depends on me getting shots that others are not...in the back country. I can't troddle around with llamas because I would miss most of the shots I get by going light and fast, I would have to settle for shots we have all seen before of aplenglow by lake shores that are easy to get to...
I would also never be able to nail all the amazing shots I did in places like Pierre Lakes Basin or the Wilson-El Diente traverse had I carried a 60++ pack or an entourage of pack animals like Mr. York, Mr. Wiley and Mr. Willard seem to be resigned to doing.

There seems to be a "Lock & Load" mentality in photography that gets even worse when it comes to large format. The "Load" part is all the gear people seem to have convinced them selves they need for what ever reason (Stone not even close to mastering his vision in 4x5 wanting an 8x10?) and "Lock" being the blinders they all put on when it comes to letting the gear parade dictate what the final shot looks like, not the more important part, the ability to allow your vision to keep moving forward in dynamic ways that make the gear irrelevant. I will take a brilliant outdoor scene on 35mm over a seen 1,000,000 before LF shot any day of the week and so will the credit card using public.

There is only one time my multi-day pack ever weighed over 60 pounds and that was because the circa 1998 pack weighed 7.4lbs empty, was packed for a 120 mile traverse in Tasmania's insanely remote South West National Park for a two week magazine assignment. In most cases, I can get my multi-day pack down to less than 45 pounds, the average weight is between 36-45.

Here is how that breaks down: Chamonix 45N2, two Kinematic 10 sheet holders, maybe one Horseman 6x12 back, a Nikkor SW 90mm F8, 135mm Apo Sironar S and either a Nikkor 200mm F8 M or Fuji 240 A with a CF tripod and Acratech GP ball head, film plus various goodies weigh in at no more than 14-16 pounds. The pack, sleeping bag and pad, tent, stove, water filter and headlamp weigh no more than 10 pounds, so we are up to 25-ish before clothing food and water. If I am not using the trash bag at night method for film swaps and I am not solo, I will add 3 pounds with the Harrison Pup tent.

I've done long 14-20 mile day hikes that gain 3,000-4,000 feet of vertical at elevations from 9K to 14K with that same 15 pound kit in a newer tech LowePro pack that ends up weighing less than 20 pounds total, often trail running or 3-4th class scrambling with it.

The bottom line is that I do this all the time, day in, day out and the lighter the gear is, the faster I am able to react to an idea and execute so the better the photos are, every single time. And I never carry a digital to help pre visualize a shot, I use an app called Viewfinder Pro that works like a director of cinematography mask, saves me a *ton* of setup / composition evaluation time with the 4x5.

But that is the way it is I guess, a lot of photo enthusiasts become slaves to the gear they spent good money on instead of thinking out of the box or with a fresh dynamic. For example, look at the photo below and at how many amateur camera owners are packed nuts to butts with their tripods ALL at the same height pointing at the same subject, it's simply hilarious at how "Locked & Loaded" this particular group was...

I'm not saying it's my way or the highway but the approaches above work for me and have given me great success in my career, your mileage and needs will "literally" vary...

111263

[Stephen Willard]

I've done long 14-20 mile day hikes that gain 3,000-4,000 feet of vertical at elevations from 9K to 14K with that same 15 pound kit in a newer tech LowePro pack that ends up weighing less than 20 pounds total, often trail running or 3-4th class scrambling with it.

The bottom line is that I do this all the time, day in, day out and the lighter the gear is, the faster I am able to react to an idea and execute so the better the photos are, every single time. And I never carry a digital to help pre visualize a shot, I use an app called Viewfinder Pro that works like a director of cinematography mask, saves me a *ton* of setup / composition evaluation time with the 4x5.

111263

Kodachrome25, do you have a website where I can see examples of your herculean LF photography. Thanks.

[Drew Wiley]

I've been awfully tempted by 6x9 Texas Leicas, but only as a vacation camera, not for backpacking use. Rather have an M7 if I had to convert to rangefinder.
But I'd rather roam the high country with zero camera than not keep roaming it. Our famous mountaineer, "Mr Sierra", Norman Clyde, was seen in his mid-80's still
slowly wandering around deep in the backcountry with an 85lb pack, complete with three roll film cameras (he was an awful photographer), cast iron skillet, etc.
Didn't live much longer. I had a bit of a grudge on him... As a teenager I did bag of first ascent of one the difficult "climber peaks" of the High Sierra, but there was
another one nearby - a stunning sheer granite wall with a possible ridge route - with no record or anyone getting up it... so I damn near pee my pants climbing that
thing, and victory at last! ... at least until I found a little salmon egg jar under a few rocks on the tiny summit. Sure enough, "Mr Sierra" had beaten me by three
decades!

[Erik Larsen]

That picture is hilarious! Where was it taken? Half the people looking one way, half the opposite direction. It reminds me of the folks in yellowstone that follow the wolf packs around, but most of those folks are using scopes not cameras.

[Drew Wiley]

...Yeah Kodachrome, I know that lightwt hiking thing myself. Been there, done that. Fine when you're young and can move the mileage and get down to cover maybe. I emphasize maybe. I've probably trimmed my LF and camping gear as much as it can be trimmed, and probably know as many secrets as you do to get that
weight down. I'm also still alive and have gotten a little too old for more close calls. I enjoy a good snowstorm of the roar of the thunder in the mtns. But no more cheap thrills. No more Motel Six nites in the mountains with an indoor swimming pool in the tent. I started with 35mm in the mtns and sure as hell know the difference
of LF when it comes to print quality. ... I'm not saying it's wrong... I frequently enjoy shooting 35mm to this day... but no way I'm going to want to punch a large
glossy print from something the size of a postage stamp to begin with! Not my cup of tea.

[NancyP]

I have to say that ultralight and LF or MF photography don't seem like compatible concepts. For me, "ultralight" is my Sigma DP2M APS-C camera, its L bracket/grip, and a Feisol small tripod and head, at 3.75 pounds total. (Don't scoff, that APS-C digital camera has image quality as good as most 135-format digital cameras - no movements, though.)
I am a rank beginner at LF, and am aiming at "reasonably light" kit, trying to assemble a kit that is comparable in weight to my typical SLR kit, for hiking in the Ozarks. I would expect that one normal, one wide, and one telephoto lens (90, 150, 240?) would be the eventual kit, along with a light 4 x 5 . I am shopping on the local LFP.info FS/WTB board, eBay, and used equipment places such as KEH and B&H for a lens or two to start with. I have read the Kerry Thalmann essay on lightweight kit.
Re: budget ($200.00-$400.00) lighter-weight lenses: Is a $235.00 150mm G-Claron a versatile "starter" lens, meaning, can it be decently sharp at infinity as well as with the closeups it was designed for? Or would I be better off with a 150mm Symmar-S or Sironar/Caltar N "non-repro" lens, for 50 bucks and 100 grams more? Are the old 90mm f/6.8 Angulons OK at $150.00 to $200.00 (there seem to be millions of them), or should I wait and buy the twice as expensive and 200 grams heavier Nikkor 90mm f/8? I need "landscape/ moderate close-up" amounts of movements on 4 x 5, not planning to make the lenses do double duty as 5 x 7 or "architectural" lenses.

On another topic, about those GPS beacons and services: Are they reliable about connecting your emergency location with the closest appropriate emergency responder group? If I break my leg on a solo hike twenty miles from Nowhere, Arkansas, are they going to be able to call up the "Nowhere" town's EMS service and local Parks/Forest rangers? Will both Spot and deLorme do the same emergency call-up job? BTW, I am glad to see that "Iridium" satellites are good for something besides amusing backyard astronomers ("Iridium flares" - shockingly bright reflections off the satellite wings).

[tgtaylor]

Toyo-Field 45CF...................3.42lbs
Gitzo GT0541 Tripod.............1.70lbs
Gitzo GT1177M Ball Head......0.68lbs
Wimberley C-12 QR Clamp....0.26lbs
TOTAL Weight......................6.06lbs

That's 2.31lbs heavier than your APS-C digital set-up but the "sensor" is ~ 4x larger!

Thomas

[Stephen Willard]

On another topic, about those GPS beacons and services: Are they reliable about connecting your emergency location with the closest appropriate emergency responder group? If I break my leg on a solo hike twenty miles from Nowhere, Arkansas, are they going to be able to call up the "Nowhere" town's EMS service and local Parks/Forest rangers? Will both Spot and deLorme do the same emergency call-up job? BTW, I am glad to see that "Iridium" satellites are good for something besides amusing backyard astronomers ("Iridium flares" - shockingly bright reflections off the satellite wings).

Both SPOT and Delorme use the same service for monitoring and responding to emergency events triggered by the beacons. They will pass on all information including the GPS location, if you have bought insurance, and any notes you have entered in your profile to the closest SAR agency. The SAR agency in my home town said they have been equipped and trained to respond to beacon emergencies. With the Delorme they will establish communication with you to get more information about the nature of your emergency which is then passed to applicable local SAR Agency. The guy I was talking with said that if it is a life and death situation you can expect to have a helicopter within two hours at the very most.

I started out using the SPOT, and I have now switched to the Delorme InReasch SE because it also facilitates two way emails of up to 160 characters that I can send to anybody in my contact list on my iPad or a smart phone. I read a while ago that the data collected for the past 10 years for beacons and PLBs is that false emergencies are rare, and they are saving lots of lives.

If you can afford one, then I highly recommend one. Our senator Udall's brother in Colorado did a solo trip to Titcomb lakes in Wind River last summer. I was just there two years ago. He took a short cut trail that most do not know about. He was going out for a week and they found him dead from natural causes several days after he was supposed to return. I heard that he had a freak heart attack on the way in, and it took him several days to die. If he had one of these beacons he would be alive to day. The real sad thing is he could have easily afforded one, but perhaps he was one of those gnarly ultralight 20 mile guys who don't need nothin but testosterone to survive!

[Kodachrome25]

That picture is hilarious! Where was it taken?

It was last Fall at Maroon Bells. 15 years ago you would see maybe a dozen people on the lakeshore on a weekday like this one. Now it is just insane if not downright ugly, always over 100 if not 140 people and they get nasty to each other. In that shot, the man in the blue was really rude to the lady in the foreground who just wanted to get a quick shot with some shrubbery in it for a moment and he was not having it. Myself and three other people around him told him to be polite and let her get her shot. It's part of a journalistic piece I am doing called "Battle at the Bells"...


If you can afford one, then I highly recommend one. Our senator Udall's brother in Colorado did a solo trip to Titcomb lakes in Wind River last summer. I was just there two years ago. He took a short cut trail that most do not know about. He was going out for a week and they found him dead from natural causes several days after he was supposed to return. I heard that he had a freak heart attack on the way in, and it took him several days to die. If he had one of these beacons he would be alive to day. The real sad thing is he could have easily afforded one, but perhaps he was one of those gnarly ultralight 20 mile guys who don't need nothin but testosterone to survive!

I use a spot, have used it once as a first responder but mostly to check in with my wife. Randy was an acquaintance of mine, really good guy, but not a gnarly ultralight type, just an intrepid naturalist who did not always feel the need to be uber vigilant. It was a bummer losing him as he was a *very* instrumental activist in revealing the truth about the dirty habits of Colorado if not the entire West, especially oil and gas.


Kodachrome25, do you have a website where I can see examples of your herculean LF photography. Thanks.

Give me about a week, I pulled all my web presence down in 2005, I'm launching 3 at once soon. In the meantime, I have attached a shot from one of the more "Herculean" places I mentioned in my previous post. I know I can be harsh and I really am trying to be nicer about things I am passionate about, but I just have to call it like I see it too, it's not a one size fits all world. I'll drop you a line here once the sites are up...

111315

[Stephen Willard]

111315

That is an excellent photograph. It looks like it was shot with a Hasselblad.

I have never shot in a line up like that in your first picture. In fact, I have never shot in any line up before. In all the years I have been the back country, I have only met two other photographers. One was Art Wolf who invited me into his base camp for a week. I pale to him. His base camp looked more like a weapons depot loaded with every camera and lens you could imagine, and he had an army of people as his support staff. Very interesting experience.

[Stephen Willard]

It was last Fall at Maroon Bells. 15 years ago you would see maybe a dozen people on the lakeshore on a weekday like this one. Now it is just insane if not downright ugly, always over 100 if not 140 people and they get nasty to each other. In that shot, the man in the blue was really rude to the lady in the foreground who just wanted to get a quick shot with some shrubbery in it for a moment and he was not having it. Myself and three other people around him told him to be polite and let her get her shot. It's part of a journalistic piece I am doing called "Battle at the Bells"...



Maroon Bells! Oh God, tell me a gnarly guy like you did not go there? True back country mountaineers do not go to such places. I have not gone there, and I do not live to far from there. Only wannabes go to such places. All their photographs look exactly the same taken form the same place in all those touristy places. Shame on you! :rolleyes:

[Stephen Willard]

Give me about a week, I pulled all my web presence down in 2005, I'm launching 3 at once soon. In the meantime, I have attached a shot from one of the more "Herculean" places I mentioned in my previous post. I know I can be harsh and I really am trying to be nicer about things I am passionate about, but I just have to call it like I see it too, it's not a one size fits all world. I'll drop you a line here once the sites are up...

Okay, but your images better stack up, otherwise, I will be rude. I have very high expectations. No Maroon Belles or any other touristy places. No Hasselblad. Just real gnarly ultralight 4x5 stuff. I am holding your feet to 20 miles of 4,000' elevation gain, and it better be good.:mad:

[StoneNYC]

I've been awfully tempted by 6x9 Texas Leicas, but only as a vacation camera, not for backpacking use. Rather have an M7 if I had to convert to rangefinder.
But I'd rather roam the high country with zero camera than not keep roaming it. Our famous mountaineer, "Mr Sierra", Norman Clyde, was seen in his mid-80's still
slowly wandering around deep in the backcountry with an 85lb pack, complete with three roll film cameras (he was an awful photographer), cast iron skillet, etc.
Didn't live much longer. I had a bit of a grudge on him... As a teenager I did bag of first ascent of one the difficult "climber peaks" of the High Sierra, but there was
another one nearby - a stunning sheer granite wall with a possible ridge route - with no record or anyone getting up it... so I damn near pee my pants climbing that
thing, and victory at last! ... at least until I found a little salmon egg jar under a few rocks on the tiny summit. Sure enough, "Mr Sierra" had beaten me by three
decades!

Hah! Gotta love the true mountain men...

[StoneNYC]

Okay, but your images better stack up, otherwise, I will be rude. I have very high expectations. No Maroon Belles or any other touristy places. No Hasselblad. Just real gnarly ultralight 4x5 stuff. I am holding your feet to 20 miles of 4,000' elevation gain, and it better be good.:mad:

Trust me, he has them, I've seen them (I'm privileged) and you won't be disappointed :)

Mine on the other hand... Lol

[Stephen Willard]

Trust me, he has them, I've seen them (I'm privileged) and you won't be disappointed :)

Mine on the other hand... Lol

After seeing Kodachrome25's first image, I suspect the rest will be superb. However, before I have to eat crow, I can have a little fun. Lock and Load...

[NancyP]

I have no chance of landscape photographer traffic-jam where I shoot. (Bird photographers, on the other hand.....regular jam at the Army Corps of Engineering/Audubon site on the Mississippi) On the other hand the scenery tends to be small-scale, with my favorite items being the unusually shaped limestone rocks and canyon-ettes. I am not going to bother with going outside the Ozarks/Midwest until I am satisfied with what I shoot locally, and I am in better shape. All we have locally is up-and-down 200 ft at a time x many, many ridges.

I will look into getting basic SOS service and rescue insurance, and maybe roadside assistance referrals. I am also thinking about a GPS with map program with USGS 7.5 quads, as I am tired of printing out the 9-sheet free quads & taping them together. I like deLorme paper atlases for driving to trail heads.

[Drew Wiley]

Probably I'm the heretic here, but for over twenty years I actually enjoyed lugging heavy packs up the steepest things I could find. It wasn't unusual for me to haul
an 85lb pack up a five or six thousand foot untrailed slope or ice wall, sometimes even Class 3, hoisting the pack with ropes at places. I preferred the speed and
versatility of a Sinar with a 28-inch bellows on it, cause it was so quick to use with the kind of long lenses I prefer, and if something got damaged in that kind of
lifestyle, replacement components were easy to acquire. I'd get up before dawn and sometimes not stop hiking till one the next morning. Feet hurt like hell, but that's
been just part of my life every since I can remember, at least until modern carbon fiber orthotics came along. Now I'm facing sea changes simply due to age, and am
adopting more and more lightwt practice, though I still like carrying a long-rail Norma for dayhikes, at least when I want something lighter than my preferred 8x10
system, or more often, more convenient for those very long perspectives. But I certainly do appreciate the alternate style some of you prefer of catching those
quick fleeting shots too. But nearly every time I see some utterly remarkable kind of lighting in the mtns or desert, I never shoot it, even if the camera is already
on the tripod - I prefer just to live it, and watch every nuance. Almost seems to sacred to me to desecrate with anything resembling a commercial mentality.
There will always be another shot. Sometimes I've hauled that gear for ten days at a time and taken only two shots. But that's more than enough.

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh. Maroon Bells. I've never taken a shot there. But I was exhuasted driving late one nite, and a snowstorm was arriving. Nobody around. So I just pulled alongside
the guard rail at that turnout beside the lake and got into my sleeping bag in the covered back of the pickup. But the snow was piling up pretty fast, and around
2 in the morning I thought I better move the truck downhill some, or I might be stuck the next morning. So I start slowly turning the truck around, cause not very
good traction, and then the headlights hit a red fox right in front of me, right as I'm turning. He gets startled and runs toward the guard rail, ends up taking a complete somersault as he leaps over it, and lands upside down in the lake! So I guess there are those who live a bit harder lifestyle than we photographers.

[Stephen Willard]

I have no chance of landscape photographer traffic-jam where I shoot. (Bird photographers, on the other hand.....regular jam at the Army Corps of Engineering/Audubon site on the Mississippi) On the other hand the scenery tends to be small-scale, with my favorite items being the unusually shaped limestone rocks and canyon-ettes. I am not going to bother with going outside the Ozarks/Midwest until I am satisfied with what I shoot locally, and I am in better shape. All we have locally is up-and-down 200 ft at a time x many, many ridges.

I will look into getting basic SOS service and rescue insurance, and maybe roadside assistance referrals. I am also thinking about a GPS with map program with USGS 7.5 quads, as I am tired of printing out the 9-sheet free quads & taping them together. I like deLorme paper atlases for driving to trail heads.

Excellent approach, but you do not have to be in better shape to access the west. There are tons of places that are accessible by car or a short hike, and more importantly, no lines. The west is a vast piece of real estate. When your ready to do a road trip just post it here and people will give you plenty of suggestions.

I just broke down and bought a GPS with map capability. That said, I would always have a map and compass with me and the skills to use it should your GPS malfunction. The consequence of a GPS failing can be deadly. You may want to load your GPS with hunting maps instead of standard topo maps. The nice thing about hunting maps is they show where public land is and the boundaries of private land. Ranchers in the west do not have to mark their boundaries, and they will kick you off their land if they THINK you are trespassing. Over the years their land gets bigger each year that passes like "the 10' monster fish that got away" fish story. With hunting maps you will know exactly where those boundaries are and where you are in relation to those boundaries. Hunting maps have most things that the standard topo maps have. Mine are color coded for state land, BLM land, indian reservation land, national forest land, and the list goes on. They are compatible with most GPSs, and may be cheaper then standard topo maps. You can find them by googling "GPS hunting maps". I believe there are two places on the web that sell them.

Hope this helps...

[Drew Wiley]

GPS is no substitute for knowing the lay of the land. They can point you one direction or another form your current position, but plenty of beginnners get in trouble
relying on them. Best to learn backcountry skills accompanying someone experienced before heading out on your own. And learn to read a real topo map. It doesn't need batteries.

[StoneNYC]

I have to agree with Drew a little bit, I think that it's better to understand how to read a map and navigate by the land van to rely on the GPS, and really to me the only two reasons to own a jeep guess it all would be for one to be able to keep notes on the location I was shooting at, into it had some kind of special feature for me to be able to let people I know I was okay. But I don't think it's great to rely on GPS for everything, especially because it could fill you at any time and leave you lost, also on the other hand I rely my GPS in my car all the time and have to time don't even know where IM because I'm just letting it take me so there's the good and the bad the goodies that I don't have to think about where I'm going I can think about other things the bad is that obviously if it breaks down you then have to reevaluate yourself and spend more time figuring it out.

I've never owned a GPS before, not one for navigating in the backcountry, and I assume that I probably won't if I'm going to keep going as late as I am, however you never know things could change and equipment can get later and future always changes one's perspective.

[Drew Wiley]

For several of the past several years I've held contests with hiking proteges taking shortcuts through the mtns. Me with nothing, not even a map. Them with their
fancy GPS. I always win. The first couple of years I had to follow along side them, so the GPS wouldn't take them right over some unindicated cliff. Even maps will
get you into trouble if you don't understand how contour lines can mean something quite different in granite than in metamorphic terrain, where undercuts might not
even show in typical countour intervals. Roads are something else - a number of people have died driving onto backroads using GPS or navigational aid devices. Best
to always check with locals or the Forest Service first before taking remote back roads. Run out of gas, get more than one flat, sudden snowstorm.....

[Kodachrome25]

Okay, but your images better stack up, otherwise, I will be rude. I have very high expectations. No Maroon Belles or any other touristy places. No Hasselblad. Just real gnarly ultralight 4x5 stuff. I am holding your feet to 20 miles of 4,000' elevation gain, and it better be good.:mad:

Tough crowd, LOL!

If you live and work as a photographer in Aspen, you still *should* get some fresh perspective on the Bells, there is always a new way to look at them….always. To me, they are not a tourist trap as much as they have been a beacon to me since I was a kid, sweating my ass off in the grade school library during recess in S. California looking at pictures by Ansel Adams. And I have seen them from every possible viewpoint, from the top, from Pyramid, Buckskin, West Maroon, Fravert Basin, aircraft, etc...

So I shoot them and other high places, put in a lot of vertical and a lot of miles getting there, a labor of love that has seen me on every summit above 14K in Colorado and some beyond. But I am not extreme like my fiends are…they are the ones that tell me to lighten my load in order to keep up…and believe me, the places these guys go, the lines they ski, you want to keep up, at least I do.

I use all my tools throughout a given year, Nikons, Leica, XPan, Hasselblad and my 4x5. I can equal my light 4x5 kit in weight and bulk if I bring a 501CM, 50, 80, 180 and two backs on a trip which is what I did in the shot in the previous post, I have been heavier and lighter, it all depends on the day or days in the field.

A photo enthusiast friend of mine helped to haul John Fielder and his Linhof, 7 lens, 30 film holder entourage around one Summer, he vowed never to use 4x5 because it just took waaaay too much work to get to the cool places he liked to go. It just does not have to be that way, most of the time, I could ditch the 90 SW and just use the 135 and 200 or 240 and produce a lot of quality work out there.

As far as GPS units go, I bought one in 2007 and it ate batteries like a ravenous lion, totally useless for a lot of things, I bought the car adapter kit for it and it now lives full time in my pickup camper, works *killer* for off roading. I just use topo maps and cached maps in my iPhone that require no signal. Once and awhile for some winter or dark timber work, I will pull the GPS in to duty, but only for location confirmation when needed which is rare.

We all do things differently, we all have different needs. But for us in particular Steve, this state is incredible for hidden treasures and in order to get amazing imagery from them, well….you have to live it. There are *SO* many visually unrepresented scenes it is mind boggling, I hardly feel the need to leave the valley let alone the state. So until my site is up, I have attached some more photos. All required a light and fast approach, two were overnights, three have the Maroon Bells in them and the required vertical in every shot was over 2,000 feet, the Winter shot right at 4K. I hesitate to post photos on here because web representations of black and white images truly stink compared to prints, but I guess I asked for it...

By the way, I have been meaning to shoot in Black Forest during a snow storm to impart some stark relief against the burned timber. If I can get away to do that, I will drop you a line, it would be good to have a second person out there, they have to still be skittish in terms of people poking around…

Cheers,

Dan

[Drew Wiley]

The San Juans attract me, and I'd like to hit up the Winds soon again, in Wyo. Just too much gas expense and sore buttness for the drive, when the Sierras are only
three hours away, or a bit further to the trailheads per se. Might try the Wallowas up in eastern Ore this fall too, depending on what the alleged drought does.
But at the moment its snowing pretty hard, and raining hard here one the coast, so hard to tell what summer will bring. But yeah, we all have different styles, and
even in some trampled place like Yosemite Valley its entirely possible to come away with a totally unique shot, though I prefer solitude for its own sake. Haven't been
up into the Yosemite burn yet, but it should be pretty interesting. Got a great local burn shot a few days ago. A stray bullet by some kids target shooting started
that thing, hitting a rock and sparking during summer.

[Ron McElroy]

What items people leave behind is also interesting.

I've left behind my Lee compendium shade, for weight and space savings.

Always a difficult decision......

Since I rarely hike any distance I like using you Lee shade :)

[Stephen Willard]

Tough crowd, LOL!

Hey Dan, glade that you climbed down out of your plastic tower and joined the crowd. Welcome! Just for the record the air is thicker down here with us regular guys.

Your work is superb. I really love excellent b&w landscape photography, and you got the eye baby. That said, any body can have three or four great photos. The trick is to have a large body of work of 50, 100, or even 200. So your not off the hook yet buster. I need to see more to see if you are made of the right stuff. Send me a message when you get your website up and running. I am excited to see what is coming.:)



If you live and work as a photographer in Aspen, you still *should* get some fresh perspective on the Bells, there is always a new way to look at them….always. To me, they are not a tourist trap as much as they have been a beacon to me since I was a kid, sweating my ass off in the grade school library during recess in S. California looking at pictures by Ansel Adams. And I have seen them from every possible viewpoint, from the top, from Pyramid, Buckskin, West Maroon, Fravert Basin, aircraft, etc...

I have sort of actually been to all of those places. I have this map software that lets me helicopter in and access all of the places that you mentioned and more. I had planned to be there from summer to well into first and second snow with my llama buddies. At no time did I considering shooting from Maroon Bell Lake, Willow Lake yes, but not Maroon Lake. Never! I did start the trip and decided to come in from Crested Butte through West Maroon Pass. I hit the wild flowers at their peak, and it was amazing.

That said, my llamas were attacked and bloodied multiple times because of the unleash dogs. No body would bother leashing their dogs even though there were f***g signs all over the place. There were hundreds of dogs roaming that place like packs of wolves, or so it felt at the time. It was so bad I aborted and went else where. That was five years ago, and now that I am armed to the teeth with bear spray, I may try it again. If I have to put down a dog with spray, then I most likely will put down the owner as well because he is the asshole who is really responsible.

It cost me a lot of money to put all of my gear, food, film, and llamas into the back country. So I spend a lot of time in the winter months investigating skylines and how light moves through the areas I intend to photograph. It has to be worth my while to go there. The red lines are the azimuth paths of evening and morning sun. I use the 3D feature of my map software to examine skylines. You make recognize some of these places.

111365 111366 111367



So I shoot them and other high places, put in a lot of vertical and a lot of miles getting there, a labor of love that has seen me on every summit above 14K in Colorado and some beyond. But I am not extreme like my fiends are…they are the ones that tell me to lighten my load in order to keep up…and believe me, the places these guys go, the lines they ski, you want to keep up, at least I do.

I use all my tools throughout a given year, Nikons, Leica, XPan, Hasselblad and my 4x5. I can equal my light 4x5 kit in weight and bulk if I bring a 501CM, 50, 80, 180 and two backs on a trip which is what I did in the shot in the previous post, I have been heavier and lighter, it all depends on the day or days in the field.

A photo enthusiast friend of mine helped to haul John Fielder and his Linhof, 7 lens, 30 film holder entourage around one Summer, he vowed never to use 4x5 because it just took waaaay too much work to get to the cool places he liked to go. It just does not have to be that way, most of the time, I could ditch the 90 SW and just use the 135 and 200 or 240 and produce a lot of quality work out there.

As far as GPS units go, I bought one in 2007 and it ate batteries like a ravenous lion, totally useless for a lot of things, I bought the car adapter kit for it and it now lives full time in my pickup camper, works *killer* for off roading. I just use topo maps and cached maps in my iPhone that require no signal. Once and awhile for some winter or dark timber work, I will pull the GPS in to duty, but only for location confirmation when needed which is rare.

We all do things differently, we all have different needs. But for us in particular Steve, this state is incredible for hidden treasures and in order to get amazing imagery from them, well….you have to live it. There are *SO* many visually unrepresented scenes it is mind boggling, I hardly feel the need to leave the valley let alone the state. So until my site is up, I have attached some more photos. All required a light and fast approach, two were overnights, three have the Maroon Bells in them and the required vertical in every shot was over 2,000 feet, the Winter shot right at 4K. I hesitate to post photos on here because web representations of black and white images truly stink compared to prints, but I guess I asked for it...

You are absolutely correct. Colorado is amazing, and the Maroon Bells are absolutely magical except for the God Dam dogs. There, I said it. When I decide to try the Maroon Bells again in a few years I will let you know. I can now email you from my InReach SE where my camp is and you can stop by and enjoy my bad jokes and pitch your tent. I bring tons of Starbuck coffee with me, and I make mean brew to die for.

-Stephen

[Bill Burk]

... the only two reasons to own a jeep guess it all would be for...

I guess a jeep would come in handy for more than that, take your stunt driving skills into the backcountry for instance.

[Bill Burk]

... I have this map software that lets me helicopter in and access all of the places that you mentioned and more. I had planned to be there from summer to well into first and second snow with my llama buddies. At no time did I considering shooting from Maroon Bell Lake, Willow Lake yes, but not Maroon Lake. Never! ...
-Stephen

You guys are funny that's for sure. I did a bit of pre-flighting with Google Earth but only one shot of my whole week was "virtually-planned" and the virtual view didn't prepare me for the trees, which became a major part of the composition. (Red Cone, I think you could find the thread easily or I could link if you want.)

I can't believe what I see in the Maroon Bells crowd. Thank goodness I can find beauty in lesser views. I wonder what would make good photography of the Maroon Bells. They look beautiful and if they weren't over-photographed, I would enjoy a photograph of them for what they are. But doesn't anybody actually hike out "to" them and photograph some of the rock that makes them what they are? Then go down to the trees and photograph them from within a grove. Maybe I would make a pair of photographs to convey the hard and soft textures... without having to compose the same single shot standard view of fall aspen with mountains in the background.

[Stephen Willard]

I can't believe what I see in the Maroon Bells crowd. Thank goodness I can find beauty in lesser views. I wonder what would make good photography of the Maroon Bells. They look beautiful and if they weren't over-photographed, I would enjoy a photograph of them for what they are. But doesn't anybody actually hike out "to" them and photograph some of the rock that makes them what they are? Then go down to the trees and photograph them from within a grove. Maybe I would make a pair of photographs to convey the hard and soft textures... without having to compose the same single shot standard view of fall aspen with mountains in the background.

When I was over at West Maroon pass which is about six or seven miles south of Maroon Bells Lake there were tons of people. It was not a pristine experience for sure, but it was not anywhere near as populated as Dan's photo at Maroon Bells Lake. Everyone shoots at Maroon Bell Lake including Dan it appears, but there are many other places in there that are equally as majestic and very few venture in to photograph because it is steep rugged country. I have always wanted to get in there and work that whole basin. As Dan implied, the possibilities are infinite. There is a lot of low hanging fruit in there for making exquisite photographs. However, I have always been gun shy about all the unleash dogs. Now that I have bear spray, its time for me to go in and do some damage :rolleyes:. I am particularly excited about putting down those assholes who make no effort to restrain Rover :mad:. As Dan put it so elegantly, lock and load baby. Will I ever do such a thing? Most likely not, but it is a wonderful fantasy :o.

I have started using Google Earth for planning my trips as well. Yes, Bill you are correct there are trees, and they can make things feel a lot different. However, when you spend most of your time above tree line, then that becomes less of a issue. I also have been using Google Earth to inspect the condition of trails. Many times the trails on the maps do not exist and Google Earth will help me get an idea of what kinds of problems I am in for. In all, I use National Geographic State Maps as my core tool and then bounce back and forth between Google Earth, Garmin BaseCamp, and AllTrails.com for trip planning.

From my experience, there is no substitute for good trip planing. It makes a huge difference in my yields.

[Kodachrome25]

That said, my llamas were attacked and bloodied multiple times because of the unleash dogs. No body would bother leashing their dogs even though there were f***g signs all over the place. There were hundreds of dogs roaming that place like packs of wolves, or so it felt at the time. It was so bad I aborted and went else where. That was five years ago, and now that I am armed to the teeth with bear spray, I may try it again. If I have to put down a dog with spray, then I most likely will put down the owner as well because he is the asshole who is really responsible.

Steve, I am so sorry to hear this. There are a couple of things that really get on my nerves about where I live and a big one is the damned dog owner self-entitlement, they just don't give a crap....or the dog does and the owners don't pick it up. Not only has this been a problem on the trails with pack horses getting spooked by roaming dogs off lead, it has lately become an issue with our resident moose population that migrated from the upper Fryingpan 4-6 years ago.

Next city council meeting, I am bringing up your experience, this crap needs to change and some real enforcement taken. We have a new head ranger for our district and she would be appalled to hear this.

[StoneNYC]

I guess a jeep would come in handy for more than that, take your stunt driving skills into the backcountry for instance.

I was dictating, sorry, that was GPS not jeep lol.

[StoneNYC]

I have to agree the dog issue is frightening, both for llama and people, I've been bit in the inner leg 3 times by 3 different dogs on 3 separate occasions because they responded to some action I was taking that they perceived as a threat (like hugging a friend I hadn't seen in a while) the worst was a dog that lunged at a little girl and I scooped her up and he bit hard on my leg, I had to kick him in the face, I don't like to be violent especially to animals but people fail miserably at training most dogs. Or deny there is a problem because they "love their dog so it's ok" ... Morons.... I certainly would have defended those llamas with a nice swing of the tripod head... Stay safe, hope the bear spray works, it's a good idea, especially when the owner reacts and follows the dogs suit of attack mode...

As for websites, my selling site isn't really very packed, I only just created it and I don't have that much up, but I'll share all the same. Most of you have seen all these images already.

http://etsy.com/shop/stonenyc

[Kodachrome25]

Everyone shoots at Maroon Bell Lake including Dan it appears

First off, don't slam me for when I *do* shoot from the lake because I see things differently and I am rarely in the lineup as it would be. Secondly, I do a fair amount of work for magazines in and out of the area so this project I am working on called "Battle at The Bells" shows the ugly side of the place, throngs of Flickr-hacks being one of them.

And like I showed you, I have also represented them from all sides, the place is very personal for deeply personal reasons I will not go into on or offline, I have scaled them three times.

Remember the log that jutted into the right hand side of the lake for decades? Well an avalanche moved it to where a wonderful part of it's texture pointed it right at the Bells, but only for one year, now it is in the log jam. One of my better selling prints is one made on my 4x5 with a 6x12 back, sorry about the iPhone pic of the print, it was for a client.

Like I said before, I love the challenge of the Bells because they are photographed so damn much, I never tire of finding a new angle and I make really good income off of images of them still to this day...

And Steve, I'll be honest here man, I have shown you enough work for you to get an idea of what I can do, I have shot tens of thousands of photographs here and have hundreds that are at this level or higher, many in books, ad campaigns, murals, etc.

You will see more but are not going to see 50 or 100 more on any website because frankly, I will not do that, I don't have to and it is generally not a good idea.

111377

[Bill Burk]

Kodachrome25, I never got the impression you were among the crowd... I've found myself in similar crowds and it brings a flood of emotions, not necessarily positive, so often I comfort myself and keep the camera tucked away. Crowds also affect my hike selection. If I have a choice, I go where people have to walk to join me.

[Stephen Willard]

To both Kodachrome Dan and Stone.

Now, let me tell you about real dog politics. Good Luck!!!!!

If you are down in the valley in Colorado ranch land where cowboys live and your dog is unleashed, then the sheriff or one of his deputies will fine you a $1000. Ranchers do not want dogs spoking there cattle. I know this because I have an acquaintance who got such a ticket. They have no tolerance for assholes and their dogs.

It is a federal law that all dogs must be leashed on all federal lands. Each violation is a $500 fine. Now here is what really happens on federal lands. If the ranges start ticketing all those assholes with out of control canines, then the assholes will write their congressmen and the congressmen will threaten budget cuts to those land agencies if they do not knock it off. So the rangers have to choose their battles carefully because they already been subject to huge budget cuts. So the assholes and their dogs roam supreme and untethered.

Now here is the real side effect of that sad policy. There are not many llamas or horses out there on the trail, but there are lost of assholes with out of control dogs. The real victims of all of this is the wildlife. If go to places like Aspen, Crested Butte, and the Indian Peaks Wilderness which is where all the Boulder assholes play with their canines, you will fine very little wildlife. In the month I spent shooting around Crested Butte, I only saw one deer and three elk. I spent two years shooting in the Indian Peaks Wilderness and never saw any wildlife. I should have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of elk and deer. The assholes argue that it is not the dogs, but rather it is all the people, and "we the people" have the right to roam free on federal lands. Now that is pure dog shit! 3.5 million people visit Rocky Mountain National Park every year and RMNP does not allow dogs on any trails or in the back country. The wildlife there is amazingly abundant. It not the people, its the assholes with their out of control canines. Period.

I have had this dream of being the Terminator armed with a 50 caliber bear spray gatling gun and gleefully mow down all the assholes. Please note, not the dogs because its not their fault. Its the assholes that get smoked. In truth, before I head to Aspen and the Maroon Bells, I will be in touch with my lawyer. I want to know if I have the right to bear spray a dog if it is attacking my llamas. And if the dog owner makes aggressive gestures toward me, and I feel threatened, then do I have the right to put the asshole down as well. If the answer is yes, then I intend to purchase one of those mini video cameras and attach it to my hat so I can document all confrontations. At that point I will be dropping assholes like files in the Aspen area, and I am sure you will be reading about in the local Aspen paper.

[Stephen Willard]

Dan, you are reading me wrong. I love your work, and I like your style. I am just giving you a hard time. And when I come to Aspen, I am excited about meeting you and trading war stories and talking shop. Please, for give me if I have crossed the line. That was not my intensions. I am truly sorry!

[Stephen Willard]

For those off you who think the term asshole is not appropriate, I can assure you that if you should ever have the chance to meet some of these canine people, you will now exactly what I am taking about. It is really bad, and it is really sad the negative impact they are having on the wildlife.

[Thad Gerheim]

Stephen,
What works for me when come across obnoxious dog owners, is to tell'em "Ma'am (or mister) you might want to control your dog, because if my horses see him as a threat you'll be carrying your dog out". They usually go into a mad rant on how horses don't belong here, but so far they've always made sure they had a good hold on their dog. Then I try to cowboy up and just tip my hat to them while giving them the nastiest smile I can. Recently, I've had more problems with mountain bikers that act like they're training for a triathlon and won't even slow down. Most of my trips with the horses are deep in wilderness areas where on a ten day or more trip I might only see a handful of people.

[David Lobato]

Maroon Bells, I did a January ski backpack there 36 some odd years ago. No one else there but my group of 4. We spent three nights and back then all I had was a Nikon and Kodachrome. Beautiful, quiet, serene, at that time. But that was a long time ago, don't know what the rules are now for winter trips. In August 33 years ago I backpacked over Maroon Pass from a backside valley and down another. We got a glimpse of the Bells from the pass and were grateful not to face the crowds close to the lake. Even then crowds were a problem. Funny story, a good friend in the late 70's left his backpack camp just above the lake with bright orange tent set up all day while he hiked up the valley. It was plainly visible from the lake and parking lot. He said a ranger remarked how upset the tourists were to have his orange tent in every picture that day.

A San Juans suggestion, Vestal and Arrow Peaks. Access can be either a train drop off (Durango Silverton Line) or park at Little Molas Lake and hike in (what I did). Highly recommended, and it's popular with climbers. Those two peaks are comparable to Cirque of the Towers in the Wind Rivers (been there too).

[Bill Burk]

Stephen,

I appreciate your clarification, but I am concerned how I feel about dogs may conflict with how you feel and it might divide us. I understand that you had awful experience(s), but I hope you don't actually do what you're talking about (hope it's rhetoric)... Sure if the safety of you or your livestock is in immediate danger...

I also know you are right about presence of dogs vs. presence of wildlife. My neighbors often allow their dogs to roam the creek behind our home... Before that, lots of wildlife make their homes right in our backyard (raccoons, frogs, deer, coyote), and now it's more the rare glimpse.

I love dogs, my former dog (a husky named Tyco) was a bit special, and would stay by my side off-leash. My current dog (a small mixed-breed) can't be off-leash ever.

Dogs need a place where they can be off-leash, and in those places, I would expect there would be "no wildlife" as a result... Thus the off-leash areas should be designated - and they should be where the absence of wildlife would not significantly impact other visitor's experience. I agree dogs do not need to be free in the wilderness. And they do not need to be free at my local beach (Linda Mar) where the habitat of threatened (Snowy Plover) and endangered (Red-Legged Frog) species make their home.

[Kodachrome25]

Dan, you are reading me wrong. I love your work, and I like your style. I am just giving you a hard time. And when I come to Aspen, I am excited about meeting you and trading war stories and talking shop. Please, for give me if I have crossed the line. That was not my intensions. I am truly sorry!

No sweat and even better if you come to visit, I will let you borrow the "Asshole-cam" and you can see plenty of work..:-)

Here is a dog story for you, a few years back a lady was walking up a highly used trail we locals affectionately refer to as the "Botox Highway". Despite what the signs all told her, to keep her dog on a leash, she let her labradoole roam free. Well a pair of quick witted coyotes snagged it and chowed down on it just off the trail right in front of her. Of course a whole tabloid-esque war ensued in how she was going to fight it and see that the nuisance, coyotes be exterminated.

She lost, felt sorry for the poor dog but not the idiot owner.

[Stephen Willard]

Stephen,
What works for me when come across obnoxious dog owners, is to tell'em "Ma'am (or mister) you might want to control your dog, because if my horses see him as a threat you'll be carrying your dog out". They usually go into a mad rant on how horses don't belong here, but so far they've always made sure they had a good hold on their dog. Then I try to cowboy up and just tip my hat to them while giving them the nastiest smile I can. Recently, I've had more problems with mountain bikers that act like they're training for a triathlon and won't even slow down. Most of my trips with the horses are deep in wilderness areas where on a ten day or more trip I might only see a handful of people.

Horses are much bigger that llamas and much more intimidating. When I aborted my trip into the Maroon Bells five years ago, its was because two dogs attacked my llamas while the group of people they belong to did absolutely nothing to stop that attacK. There was blood and hair all over the place, and I had to rush one of them to a town about 40 miles away to have the poor thing stitched up. That cost me $400 in vet fees which I really do care about. What amazed me is no one in that party did anything. Perhaps they felt that llamas do not belong on the trail either. However, when I am on the trail with my llamas I always yield to hikers and especially horses because I know they scare horses. It was not the first time my llamas were attacked in there, but it was the straw that broke my llamas back. So I bailed. Crazy!

[Kodachrome25]

A San Juans suggestion, Vestal and Arrow Peaks. Access can be either a train drop off (Durango Silverton Line) or park at Little Molas Lake and hike in (what I did). Highly recommended, and it's popular with climbers. Those two peaks are comparable to Cirque of the Towers in the Wind Rivers (been there too).

Yeah, those are amazing down there, I have only seen them from the summits of Sunlight, Windom and Eolus, another great set of peaks. My wife was telling me a few days ago that she wants to climb / hike up to 10 Fourteeners this year. I told her to take some weekdays off so we can do the train to those three peaks.

But the area of Arrow and Vestal are high on my list as are Cirque of the Towers. Those places need lots of time for the right light and atmospherics I am after, what else is new?

[Stephen Willard]

No sweat and even better if you come to visit, I will let you borrow the "Asshole-cam" and you can see plenty of work..:-)

Here is a dog story for you, a few years back a lady was walking up a highly used trail we locals affectionately refer to as the "Botox Highway". Despite what the signs all told her, to keep her dog on a leash, she let her labradoole roam free. Well a pair of quick witted coyotes snagged it and chowed down on it just off the trail right in front of her. Of course a whole tabloid-esque war ensued in how she was going to fight it and see that the nuisance, coyotes be exterminated.

She lost, felt sorry for the poor dog but not the idiot owner.

Thanks for accepting my apology. I really felt real bad that I hurt your feelings. That is the last thing I want to do to anybody, especially someone as talented as you.

The town of Boulder passed a leash law a while back, and it was like nuclear explosion. They had something like 800 dog owners show up at the subsequent town meeting, if my memory serves me correct, and it got pretty rowdy. The town backed down an replaced word "leash" with the phrase "voice control". So what the hell does voice control mean?

To be truthful with you Dan, I do not see much difference between the gun lobby and the canine lobby out here. They both pretty much rule.

[Stephen Willard]

Stephen,

I appreciate your clarification, but I am concerned how I feel about dogs may conflict with how you feel and it might divide us. I understand that you had awful experience(s), but I hope you don't actually do what you're talking about (hope it's rhetoric)... Sure if the safety of you or your livestock is in immediate danger...

I also know you are right about presence of dogs vs. presence of wildlife. My neighbors often allow their dogs to roam the creek behind our home... Before that, lots of wildlife make their homes right in our backyard (raccoons, frogs, deer, coyote), and now it's more the rare glimpse.

I love dogs, my former dog (a husky named Tyco) was a bit special, and would stay by my side off-leash. My current dog (a small mixed-breed) can't be off-leash ever.

Dogs need a place where they can be off-leash, and in those places, I would expect there would be "no wildlife" as a result... Thus the off-leash areas should be designated - and they should be where the absence of wildlife would not significantly impact other visitor's experience. I agree dogs do not need to be free in the wilderness. And they do not need to be free at my local beach (Linda Mar) where the habitat of threatened (Snowy Plover) and endangered (Red-Legged Frog) species make their home.

Hey Bill, its not the dogs fault. It their owners who are the problem. I would say about 90% of the people on the trail do what it takes to restrain there pets. It is only the few who ruin it for the rest. Unfortunately, dogs and wildlife do not mix whether they are on a leash or not. All that barking can send wildlife fleeing into areas where they cannot get the food or grazing they need to survive the winter. Eventually, the animals just die off. I think that is what has happened in the Maroon Bells and other areas where there is high dog traffic.

Not to worry, I am just blowing off steam, and I have not thought about this for a long time. However, I also need to know what my rights are so I can make informed decision about defending my llamas. I suspect if I had to spray a dog because he was attacking my llamas, the owners would not challenge me with a large bottle of bear spray. The last thing I want is to spray a human. If I did spray a dog owner please note that it is not lethal and does not do any tissue damage. They will be in excruciating pain for about 40 minutes, but they would get over it. The only other option is to pack a gun, but I know I could not use that even on a dog much less a human.

Personally, I like dogs and well socialized and well behaved dogs are cool. But we have a big problem with bad dog owners on federal lands and something needs to be done about it. I agree with you with that dogs need to run free just like I need to hike to beautiful place, and we need to formalize a place where that can happen.

Conflicts between all the different users on federal lands are a result of the political system unwillingness to deal with the issues. We need rules that clearly define acceptable behavior for all of us, and the will of law enforcement to enforce those laws. If we lack either part then my llamas will continued to be attacked, horse will be harassed by hikers, mountain bikers will continue to run people down, animals will continue to die, and the list of conflicts will continue to persist.

[Stephen Willard]

As for websites, my selling site isn't really very packed, I only just created it and I don't have that much up, but I'll share all the same. Most of you have seen all these images already.

http://etsy.com/shop/stonenyc

Not to worry stone we all have to start from somewhere. I did jump on your website and I loved Panoramic Grand Canyon Indian Garden Ridge-line at Dusk. It really captures the west with big skies and bold skylines. I have booked marked your website, and I will be checkin from time to time. I am looking forward to your 8x10 work. Looking through the back of an 8x10 is like nothing I have ever experienced. It is captivating in itself.

[Bill Burk]

There was blood and hair all over the place, and I had to rush one of them to a town about 40 miles away to have the poor thing stitched up. That cost me $400 in vet fees which I really do care about.

If I were there with you that day, I would have intervened between the animals to defend the llamas. Then I would have accepted no other words other than "I am so sorry" from the dog owners. I'd be upset, but that's all I would ask.

Since it went down differently, I'd be on your side here. I'd stand up for you in a city council meeting calling for leash law enforcement.

[Stephen Willard]

But the area of Arrow and Vestal are high on my list as are Cirque of the Towers. Those places need lots of time for the right light and atmospherics I am after, what else is new?

I spent three weeks shooting Cirgue of the Towers. You are correct. They are amazing. You gotta go. The towers shoot straight out of the valley floor into huge monolithic peaks of granite that beg to be photographed.

[Bill Burk]

Hey Bill, its not the dogs fault. It their owners who are the problem.

And in the spirit of blowing-off steam, you weren't dealing with humans there.

I hope you never have to use the pepper spray on domestic, wild or hominid beast.

[Stephen Willard]

And in the spirit of blowing-off steam, you weren't dealing with humans there.

I hope you never have to use the pepper spray on domestic, wild or hominid beast.

Me to. All I really want do is take photographs and embrace the beauty of the land. If I can just stay away from bad dog owners, wolves, mountain lions, and grizzlies, I will be a happy camper.

[StoneNYC]

To both Kodachrome Dan and Stone.

Now, let me tell you about real dog politics. Good Luck!!!!!

If you are down in the valley in Colorado ranch land where cowboys live and your dog is unleashed, then the sheriff or one of his deputies will fine you a $1000. Ranchers do not want dogs spoking there cattle. I know this because I have an acquaintance who got such a ticket. They have no tolerance for assholes and their dogs.

It is a federal law that all dogs must be leashed on all federal lands. Each violation is a $500 fine. Now here is what really happens on federal lands. If the ranges start ticketing all those assholes with out of control canines, then the assholes will write their congressmen and the congressmen will threaten budget cuts to those land agencies if they do not knock it off. So the rangers have to choose their battles carefully because they already been subject to huge budget cuts. So the assholes and their dogs roam supreme and untethered.

Now here is the real side effect of that sad policy. There are not many llamas or horses out there on the trail, but there are lost of assholes with out of control dogs. The real victims of all of this is the wildlife. If go to places like Aspen, Crested Butte, and the Indian Peaks Wilderness which is where all the Boulder assholes play with their canines, you will fine very little wildlife. In the month I spent shooting around Crested Butte, I only saw one deer and three elk. I spent two years shooting in the Indian Peaks Wilderness and never saw any wildlife. I should have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of elk and deer. The assholes argue that it is not the dogs, but rather it is all the people, and "we the people" have the right to roam free on federal lands. Now that is pure dog shit! 3.5 million people visit Rocky Mountain National Park every year and RMNP does not allow dogs on any trails or in the back country. The wildlife there is amazingly abundant. It not the people, its the assholes with their out of control canines. Period.

I have had this dream of being the Terminator armed with a 50 caliber bear spray gatling gun and gleefully mow down all the assholes. Please note, not the dogs because its not their fault. Its the assholes that get smoked. In truth, before I head to Aspen and the Maroon Bells, I will be in touch with my lawyer. I want to know if I have the right to bear spray a dog if it is attacking my llamas. And if the dog owner makes aggressive gestures toward me, and I feel threatened, then do I have the right to put the asshole down as well. If the answer is yes, then I intend to purchase one of those mini video cameras and attach it to my hat so I can document all confrontations. At that point I will be dropping assholes like files in the Aspen area, and I am sure you will be reading about in the local Aspen paper.

I think it's ok to bear spray the dogs as you're protecting your "property" from damage (from a legal standpoint) but only bear spray a person after they have taken then first swing or pushed you, otherwise even if they "threaten" you, you could be in trouble, but once they make an aggressive swing you can then spray them.

[Stephen Willard]

I think it's ok to bear spray the dogs as you're protecting your "property" from damage (from a legal standpoint) but only bear spray a person after they have taken then first swing or pushed you, otherwise even if they "threaten" you, you could be in trouble, but once they make an aggressive swing you can then spray them.

Stone, I think you are correct, but I have to hear from my lawyer just to make sure. In any case, my intent is to issue warnings prior to using bear spray, and only use the bear spray as a last resort when all else fails. Even then I will only discharge a small amount on its first application in hopes that will be sufficient. If the attack escalates, then the amount I discharge will be in response to level of continued attacks.

My goal here is to avoid all possible confrontations, but my llamas can invite trouble. Dogs love to chase them while bears, mountain lions, and grizzlies would love to eat them. Based on my experience in the Maroon Bells five years ago, I am fairly certain my llamas will be attacked by dogs without restraint by some owner. It is up to me to apply the least amount of force as possible to thwart the attacks. If I am in there for 60 to 70 days shooting, it would not surprise me if my llamas were attacked at least five or six times during my stay.

This discussion has really gotten off topic, and it is mostly my fault, and I would like to apologize to the community. I would also like to note some basic facts about bear spray so that there will be some additional benefit to those who are following this string.


Bear spray is not lethal and does not cause any lasting permenate tissue damage.
97% of those who use bear spray to thwart a bear attack WILL NOT sustain serious or lethal injuries.
57% of those who use guns to thwart a bear attack WILL sustain lethal or serious injuries.

It has proven to be a very effect tool against many different animals such as lions. It is also a very effective tool to thwart a home invasion. It is cheap to purchase compared to guns. You need little or no training to use it. And if you bear spray a friend or loved one by accident, then they will recover within an hour. It can shoot a plum of gas five feet in diameter 60 feet in distance. And if my memory is correct, the biggest cans can produce 20 discharges before running out.

Hope this helps...

[StoneNYC]

Not to worry stone we all have to start from somewhere. I did jump on your website and I loved Panoramic Grand Canyon Indian Garden Ridge-line at Dusk. It really captures the west with big skies and bold skylines. I have booked marked your website, and I will be checkin from time to time. I am looking forward to your 8x10 work. Looking through the back of an 8x10 is like nothing I have ever experienced. It is captivating in itself.

Thank you Stephen.

I'll admit I'm terrible at naming my images and my biggest seller by far is the DC subway image on Kodachrome.

I'll keep at it, and now I'll have to add more "just for you" lol.

But give it a few weeks (or a month or two since you may be out on the trail and away from "civilization" you lucky DOG you) hah!

And yes getting the legal facts is good.

Sometimes I feel it's helpful to just issue a warning, as embarrassing and distracting as it might be, if you're there, stand on a large rock and say as loud as you can "ATTENTION all dog owners! Please LEASH your dogs, for some reason "good dogs" are often attracted to attacking pack mule and llama of which I have two, it I'm forced to defend my llamas your attacking dog may be injured in the process, there is a leash law here and I ask that you follow it for your dogs sake. Thank you!"

I've done stuff like that, it doesn't make you popular but it does avoid worse situations.

I'm getting the impression that the "new" Chamonix 8x10 is just over 10 lbs and not 8lbs as I originally thought. This might change things. I'll have to find out from them directly.

[Brian C. Miller]

What do you use? What compromises have you made to keep things extra, extra light? Would love to hear some creative solutions.

Harmon Titan pinhole, film holder, Birkenstocks. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36786-Your-minimalist-field-photo-kit&p=883465&viewfull=1#post883465) But now I'm using a Joby Gorillapod, the big one that supports over 10 pounds.

[Stephen Willard]

Thank you Stephen.

I'll keep at it, and now I'll have to add more "just for you" lol.

But give it a few weeks (or a month or two since you may be out on the trail and away from "civilization" you lucky DOG you) hah

Stone, I was thinking more like years. It takes years for a person to understand who they are as an artist, and then it takes more years for the artist to develop a large body of excellent photography. For me, I know I am an traditional color landscape photographer who specializes in grand scenes and big prints and nothing else. I do not do rusty cars in fields. I do not do anything conceptual. I do not do coffee table books or calendars. I do not include anything that is man made because it is not about the land. I do what is embodied in that simple statement and nothing more. I am comfortable with that statement and how it defines me as an artist.

That very simple realization drives everything I do. It drives the types of cameras and the two formats I use. It drives the number and types of lenses I use. It drives the film I use. It drives why I use llamas. It drives where I go to make my art, and how I make my art. It drives my motivation to develop new technologies in my darkroom and even in the field. I do not buy gear because it is cool and that is what everybody else has. I buy gear because it provides me with the functionality I need to be the artist I know I am.

Some may think I am gear head, and some people surely do not believe I am an unltralight minimalist, but rather more like a pack train. However, the truth is I am both a pack train and a minimalist. When you are in the back country for 30 days everything changes. I now have to do laundry. I have to have the tools to fix things when they break. I have to have a solar system to charge all of the lithium ion batteries. I have have an office so that I can get work done for my business. I have to be tethered to a satellite because leaving a note of where I might be and when I will return after 30 days is not adequate for my loved ones. I have bear bells, bear spray, and four bear proof containers to help thwart dangerous animal attacks. I have to have a very serious first aid kit. No more toy first aid kits. My doctor has given me a course of prescription drugs and narcotics so that I can administer emergency medicine in the back country. I have to have the clothing to weather powerful storms or snow storms. I have to have tons of food. And most importantly, I have to have the mental fortitude, the experience, and the knowledge base to make everything work seamlessly.

When you solo in the back country for 30 days everything is very different. The longer you stay and the more remote you are, the more gear you have to pack in. Think about this, on average it takes about 10 tons of gear to climb K2. 250 pounds from that point of view could be considered minimalist.

My base camp looks more like a small village with multiple tents, lanterns, and other comforts. When the big storms arrive I can brew a nice hot cup of Starbucks coffee under my cook tarp and be warm and comfortable. Experience has taught me establishing a comfortable base camp where I can feel safe when big storms arrive and everything is dark, is critical to my emotional well being and success as a soloist. Base camp now becomes my home. That is why the K2 people have base camp, and that is why I have base camp. And I am not talking about pitching a tent. What I do and the K2 people do is different. I am talking about a real base camp in every sense of the word.

However, once I establish base camp, then I transition from a pack train mentality to an ultralight minimalist. By the time the K2 folks approach the top of the peak they an't carrying much, and neither am I. I now break out from base camp without llamas initially and carrying just a light weight daypack and my point-n-shoot digital camera. I will venture up to five miles from base camp scouring the land looking for compositions. Once I find a composition I make an initial assessment of it, and record everything about it in my database on my iPad including its GPS location. I will revisit the composition later with the big cameras and further refine my artistic vision and the final details of photograph. I then update the database accordingly.

Once all of the compositions have been located and detailed, then it becomes a waiting game for the right light and appropriate atmospheric conditions. This is where the real bottleneck occurs, and you have no control over it. Waiting for the right atmospheric conditions can take minutes, hours, days, weeks or even years of revisiting until the photograph is extracted. This has motivated me to find a weather reporting system so I can be ready when the weather I need arrives. I have a very good weather radio that works well in some areas and not in others. Sometimes I have to hike to the top of peaks before I can get the weather, but there are many times where I am in the dark. I currently am trying to find a weather satellite system that is portable and meets my needs.

I am sharing all of this with you Stone to document why it takes years and not weeks and months. When I started out I was just like you and this is where my experiences have taken me. It is how I do photography, and as the years pass for you, you will become your own artist and you will have your own vision, and you will become very comfortable with who you are as an artist. Your simple artistic statement will be different then my artistic statement.

For those who choose to read this very lengthy posting, please note this is NOT an act of boasting, by rather a true act of SHARING with the community at large. My hope is that as you read my story, you will find things that are applicable to you and adapt them for your needs.

111452 111453 111454 111455

Hope this helps...

[Kodachrome25]

Great post Steve, I agree with the lifetime approach of this. Like I said in a post a few back, you have to live these places, not just visit them. Like a woman, you have to "court" Mother Nature too. I often use a base camp method too, it's nice to come home to this one after a few hours or a few days. It was created specifically for photography...

[StoneNYC]

Stone, I was thinking more like years. It takes years for a person to understand who they are as an artist, and then it takes more years for the artist to develop a large body of excellent photography. For me, I know I am an traditional color landscape photographer who specializes in grand scenes and big prints and nothing else. I do not do rusty cars in fields. I do not do anything conceptual. I do not do coffee table books or calendars. I do not include anything that is man made because it is not about the land. I do what is embodied in that simple statement and nothing more. I am comfortable with that statement and how it defines me as an artist.

That very simple realization drives everything I do. It drives the types of cameras and the two formats I use. It drives the number and types of lenses I use. It drives the film I use. It drives why I use llamas. It drives where I go to make my art, and how I make my art. It drives my motivation to develop new technologies in my darkroom and even in the field. I do not buy gear because it is cool and that is what everybody else has. I buy gear because it provides me with the functionality I need to be the artist I know I am.

Some may think I am gear head, and some people surely do not believe I am an unltralight minimalist, but rather more like a pack train. However, the truth is I am both a pack train and a minimalist. When you are in the back country for 30 days everything changes. I now have to do laundry. I have to have the tools to fix things when they break. I have to have a solar system to charge all of the lithium ion batteries. I have have an office so that I can get work done for my business. I have to be tethered to a satellite because leaving a note of where I might be and when I will return after 30 days is not adequate for my loved ones. I have bear bells, bear spray, and four bear proof containers to help thwart dangerous animal attacks. I have to have a very serious first aid kit. No more toy first aid kits. My doctor has given me a course of prescription drugs and narcotics so that I can administer emergency medicine in the back country. I have to have the clothing to weather powerful storms or snow storms. I have to have tons of food. And most importantly, I have to have the mental fortitude, the experience, and the knowledge base to make everything work seamlessly.

When you solo in the back country for 30 days everything is very different. The longer you stay and the more remote you are, the more gear you have to pack in. Think about this, on average it takes about 10 tons of gear to climb K2. 250 pounds from that point of view could be considered minimalist.

My base camp looks more like a small village with multiple tents, lanterns, and other comforts. When the big storms arrive I can brew a nice hot cup of Starbucks coffee under my cook tarp and be warm and comfortable. Experience has taught me establishing a comfortable base camp where I can feel safe when big storms arrive and everything is dark, is critical to my emotional well being and success as a soloist. Base camp now becomes my home. That is why the K2 people have base camp, and that is why I have base camp. And I am not talking about pitching a tent. What I do and the K2 people do is different. I am talking about a real base camp in every sense of the word.

However, once I establish base camp, then I transition from a pack train mentality to an ultralight minimalist. By the time the K2 folks approach the top of the peak they an't carrying much, and neither am I. I now break out from base camp without llamas initially and carrying just a light weight daypack and my point-n-shoot digital camera. I will venture up to five miles from base camp scouring the land looking for compositions. Once I find a composition I make an initial assessment of it, and record everything about it in my database on my iPad including its GPS location. I will revisit the composition later with the big cameras and further refine my artistic vision and the final details of photograph. I then update the database accordingly.

Once all of the compositions have been located and detailed, then it becomes a waiting game for the right light and appropriate atmospheric conditions. This is where the real bottleneck occurs, and you have no control over it. Waiting for the right atmospheric conditions can take minutes, hours, days, weeks or even years of revisiting until the photograph is extracted. This has motivated me to find a weather reporting system so I can be ready when the weather I need arrives. I have a very good weather radio that works well in some areas and not in others. Sometimes I have to hike to the top of peaks before I can get the weather, but there are many times where I am in the dark. I currently am trying to find a weather satellite system that is portable and meets my needs.

I am sharing all of this with you Stone to document why it takes years and not weeks and months. When I started out I was just like you and this is where my experiences have taken me. It is how I do photography, and as the years pass for you, you will become your own artist and you will have your own vision, and you will become very comfortable with who you are as an artist. Your simple artistic statement will be different then my artistic statement.

For those who choose to read this very lengthy posting, please note this is NOT an act of boasting, by rather a true act of SHARING with the community at large. My hope is that as you read my story, you will find things that are applicable to you and adapt them for your needs.

111452 111453 111454 111455

Hope this helps...

I always a appreciate your posts and I never think it's boasting.

In another post you had an image of a Sierra Designs tent that was green-ish is that a single pole design tent? That is old? It looks like the one that I got years ago as a "kid" before I switched to the Big Agnes SL tent. But it seemed strange to see it in your picture, at the time it was ultra light but not by today's standards.

[StoneNYC]

Great post Steve, I agree with the lifetime approach of this. Like I said in a post a few back, you have to live these places, not just visit them. Like a woman, you have to "court" Mother Nature too. I often use a base camp method too, it's nice to come home to this one after a few hours or a few days. It was created specifically for photography...

I think because you've added your girlfriend into the mix somehow this image is bragging :-p

[DG 3313]

I have a Photoflex "changing room" that I traveled with. It unfolds like a small tent. I used to put it on a table or bed of the hotel room. I took empty film boxes to store the exposed film.

[Kodachrome25]

I think because you've added your girlfriend into the mix somehow this image is bragging :-p

Umm...she is my wife, if I showed our cat who is inside, that would be bragging..;-)

[StoneNYC]

Umm...she is my wife, if I showed our cat who is inside, that would be bragging..;-)

Oh right! Sorry wife!!! :) yea don't show off your pussy, this is the wrong thread for that.

[Bill Burk]

If this is bragging, bring on more of it! How can you spend a week or more in the wilderness and NOT want to brag about it? I'd brag if I could bring my wife on such a trip. But even though she would live in the mountains with me again if I asked, backpacking is not her idea of vacation.

[paulr]

This was my basecamp on the Grand Teton. You'd bump your head if you squirmed too agressively, and it smelled like pee, but we didn't have to carry anything.

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[Thad Gerheim]

If this is bragging, bring on more of it! How can you spend a week or more in the wilderness and NOT want to brag about it? I'd brag if I could bring my wife on such a trip. But even though she would live in the mountains with me again if I asked, backpacking is not her idea of vacation.
Bill, this is the trip to bring your wife on http://middleforkexpeditions.com/ for that week in the wilderness without having to carry anything and still having luxury!
Check out the video on the bottom of the page and all the gear they bring. I've been down a couple times by boat and several more times by horse packing. My second favorite wilderness area in the lower forty-eight.

[Stephen Willard]

I always a appreciate your posts and I never think it's boasting.

In another post you had an image of a Sierra Designs tent that was green-ish is that a single pole design tent? That is old? It looks like the one that I got years ago as a "kid" before I switched to the Big Agnes SL tent. But it seemed strange to see it in your picture, at the time it was ultra light but not by today's standards.

Stone, you are very observant. The same tent is also the on the left side of my cook tarp in the second picture in my long posting, and it is the primary tent I am currently using. I believe it is close to 22 years of age, and it is in pristine condition like all of my equipment. I have no intention of up grading my tent because it is a proven piece of equipment. It has weathered countless storms, and I have lived in it over the years for years. It has a low profile so that it does not cup the wind, and it is reasonable light.

What follows are some tenting considerations you may have not considered. First, the big alpine storms are nothing short of a localized hurricane. We do not here about them like most hurricanes because they are isolated to the alpine and have no impact on civilization. What most hikers do not realize is that the 1.5 mill nylon tent fly is the only thing that stands between you and death. Sound scary? Well it is. If your huddled up in your tent in a big storm and your tent fly suffers catastrophic failure and shears, then it is my belief there is a 90% chance you will be dead in 20 minutes to an hour from hyperthermia. You will be standing in hollowing near freezing winds soaked to the bone. Not a good situation to be in!

As I said before, soloing in the alpine is a game of probabilities. Do reduce that life threatening risk to an acceptable level so I can eventually return home and have sex with wife, when the big storms arrive I suit up in my winter gear with long underwear, cone hat, down jacket, and my full body extreme Gore Tex outer shell. It will be too hot to crawl into my sleeping bag, so I unzip the bag and use it like a blanket. If the tent fly sheers, I simply find myself a big spruce and hunker down on the down wind side for protection. I believe at this point the probability of survival is now close to 100%, and I will get to go home and have abundant sex with my beautiful bride of 37 years.

I would also highly recommend that you put tent lines on all the tie downs on your fly and stake them down. Sometimes big alpine storms can move in within minutes, and you want your tents anchored solid. All of the loops along the bottom of your tent should have small tent lines attached, pulled away from the inner tent wall, and staked down as well. In addition mellon size rocks should be placed on all tent stakes. If you get a cook tarp like mine then the two main front and back tent lines should extend out at least 12 feet to reduce up lift and two watermelon size rocks should be place on each stake. Every type of aluminum pole I have purchased for my cook tarp have snapped from wind loading. Take a look at the pictures of my cook tent and observe the 3" diameter spruce poles I now cut and use.

I know all of this may sound excessive, but experience tells me, it may not be sufficient. I suspect once you have weathered one of these super storms, you most likely will use bigger rocks than I suggested.

Hope this helps...

PS. I would recommend you using reflective tent lines so they are easy to see day or night. They can be expensive, but they are worth it.

111488

[Stephen Willard]

Great post Steve, I agree with the lifetime approach of this. Like I said in a post a few back, you have to live these places, not just visit them. Like a woman, you have to "court" Mother Nature too. I often use a base camp method too, it's nice to come home to this one after a few hours or a few days. It was created specifically for photography...

That is way cool Dan. I can tell that your wife is way prettier than you. I bet your wife married you because she felt sorry for you because you were so god awful ugly. My wife told me right up front she was not impressed with any of my attributes accept my money. I said that is okay with me because the view from my eye balls is pretty dam sweet :o.

Take a look at the left most picture with the mountains and llamas of my long posting. Those peaks are part of the Cirque of the Towers. The nice thing about the Towers is there is no dam dogs around! God, I love them.

[Stephen Willard]

Dan, I hope that you know I was joking around and meant no harm in my previous posting. Sometimes all of my lengthy postings can get me real punchy, and I can say some pretty stupid thinks....

[StoneNYC]

Hope this helps...



111488[/QUOTE]

I'm slightly aware....

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Sleeping bags (all mountain Hardwear): 50 degree for ultra summer, 32 degree waterproof for normal weather, 0 degree waterproof for winter, -20 waterproof for ultra winter

Tents: Big Agnes seed house SL for ultra lite normal hiking; Sierra Designs Astronaut CD for anything industrial (this includes larger events with inconsiderate people as well as a location like you described); and finally the Mountain Hardwear EV2 for ultra winter conditions...

Pads: The old tried and true foam accordion pads and the new exped insulated inflatable, I tried the big Agnes insulated inflatables and found them to not be warm enough, this was MUCH better but I would like to be able to afford the down wide version if I could. Most of my gear was all gotten when I shortly worked for a camping store with a pro gear deal that I no longer have.

Finally my waterproof down jacket with hood, and my ultra ultra ultra light waterproof gortex jacket (something like 6oz or something stupid light).

Just to name a few.

I know all about guy lines and reflective chording, but I wasn't aware of the tornados where you shoot.

The thing I DON'T like about the Sierra Designs tent, besides that it's 6lbs instead of the big Agnes 3lb seedhouse SL (now they have a 2lb UL version) but the main issue is that it has TERRIBLE ventilation, and in my area the air is often damp, and I couldn't stand it, the Big Agnes is much better about that, and just as waterproof if not MORE waterproof than the Sierra Designs which is extremely water tight itself. Oh and the single pole Sierra Designs doesn't stand on it's own, which can be trouble in rocky areas so all those things lead me to the Big Agnes tent.

Anyway, thanks for the details on your storm behavior, I'm sure it may save my life someday.

[StoneNYC]

That is way cool Dan. I can tell that your wife is way prettier than you. I bet your wife married you because she felt sorry for you because you were so god awful ugly. My wife told me right up front she was not impressed with any of my attributes accept my money. I said that is okay with me because the view from my eye balls is pretty dam sweet :o.

Take a look at the left most picture with the mountains and llamas of my long posting. Those peaks are part of the Cirque of the Towers. The nice thing about the Towers is there is no dam dogs around! God, I love them.

Hahaha! You crack me up! So were you a successful photographer before you met your wife? Or financially successful some other way?

I can tell you for sure my GF doesn't date me for my money, and though, I MIGHT be the prettier one of us two, I think it happened to be my unmentionable skills that kept her around, at least that's what she tells me is the reason she puts up with the rest of me HAH!

[Drew Wiley]

Heck, the tales I could tell about Sierra Designs tents catastrophically failing at the worst possible time .... Their original outlet was smack dab across the street
from my office, so the guys here were constantly tempted by deals there, and it's lucky none of them actually froze to death. ... But I'll forego so I can momentarily
reminisce about Cirque of the Towers before getting back to actual work. I got up a miserable morning along the Big Sandy River after my own Sierra Designs tent
had failed in a huge thunderstorm (last time I ever used it)... Camera etc stayed dry in the covered pack... So I'm hiking up to the trail intersection and there's
four guys leaning up against a rock absolutely wild eyed with their hair standing on end, beside a jumbled pile of ropes and so forth. Turns out they were up on
Pingora during the lightning storm. Their rope got wet, so even though they were trying to rappel back down, they were still kinda wired up, so to speak, and
got tingled in all the wrong places... They could hardly talk, all zombie like and scared witless... but at least they were alive.

[StoneNYC]

Heck, the tales I could tell about Sierra Designs tents catastrophically failing at the worst possible time .... Their original outlet was smack dab across the street
from my office, so the guys here were constantly tempted by deals there, and it's lucky none of them actually froze to death. ... But I'll forego so I can momentarily
reminisce about Cirque of the Towers before getting back to actual work. I got up a miserable morning along the Big Sandy River after my own Sierra Designs tent
had failed in a huge thunderstorm (last time I ever used it)... Camera etc stayed dry in the covered pack... So I'm hiking up to the trail intersection and there's
four guys leaning up against a rock absolutely wild eyed with their hair standing on end, beside a jumbled pile of ropes and so forth. Turns out they were up on
Pingora during the lightning storm. Their rope got wet, so even though they were trying to rappel back down, they were still kinda wired up, so to speak, and
got tingled in all the wrong places... They could hardly talk, all zombie like and scared witless... but at least they were alive.

So did you help them, or did you simply educate them about carrying heavy enough gear? Lol! Maybe they were famous people that you can tell us story about how you ended up saving them and then they brought you to the White House for special treatment ;) haha

[Drew Wiley]

In their case, proper gear would have including grounding rods!

[Kodachrome25]

Dan, I hope that you know I was joking around and meant no harm in my previous posting. Sometimes all of my lengthy postings can get me real punchy, and I can say some pretty stupid thinks....

You worry too much, and besides, my wife would never marry a toad, we have appeared in ads together like the usage on the trail map attached below, we are obviously on the left, I used a pocket wizard to trigger it...


and finally the Mountain Hardwear EV2 for ultra winter conditions...

Niiiice tent sir, I love my now 12 year old Trango 2, been through hell and back with it, a shot last Fall from a high camp at 13,400 feet. I love how it gets more structurally sound by putting stuff in the interior pockets.

111507111506

[StoneNYC]

You worry too much, and besides, my wife would never marry a toad, we have appeared in ads together like the usage on the trail map attached below, we are obviously on the left, I used a pocket wizard to trigger it...



Niiiice tent sir, I love my now 12 year old Trango 2, been through hell and back with it, a shot last Fall from a high camp at 13,400 feet. I love how it gets more structurally sound by putting stuff in the interior pockets.

111507111506

Nice "selfie" haha

Also, I don't use the EV2 often, it's actually NOT rain tested because it's designed to be used in such cold weather you wouldn't ever have rain... It does have a little pocket in the floor where you can dig for snow to melt for water if you're ever hunkered in for a long time.

It's a shame I don't use it more but I hardly ever get to those kinds of environments...

But I got it so cheap at the time I had to get one, they have made improvements since my model but mine will stand up to a lot...

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh Stone. Won't they allow you in a five star Bibler resort?

[StoneNYC]

Gosh Stone. Won't they allow you in a five star Bibler resort?

I don't understand?

[Drew Wiley]

Course not. Bibler won't accept reservations from just anyone. ... OK. Let me explain. It's the only single-wall tent system that really works. Won't get drippy inside
with condensation. Will hold up to a terrible wind. Will tolerate huge snowloading. The real deal. True expedition high-altitude quality. I carry a Bibler I-tent when
things might get dicey, when most other tents would either be crushed or ripped apart - something I've had happen more than once. But in good weather, I don't
even set up a tent. Prefer to see the stars at nite.

[Stephen Willard]

Sleeping bags (all mountain Hardwear): 50 degree for ultra summer, 32 degree waterproof for normal weather, 0 degree waterproof for winter, -20 waterproof for ultra winter

Tents: Big Agnes seed house SL for ultra lite normal hiking; Sierra Designs Astronaut CD for anything industrial (this includes larger events with inconsiderate people as well as a location like you described); and finally the Mountain Hardwear EV2 for ultra winter conditions...

Pads: The old tried and true foam accordion pads and the new exped insulated inflatable, I tried the big Agnes insulated inflatables and found them to not be warm enough, this was MUCH better but I would like to be able to afford the down wide version if I could. Most of my gear was all gotten when I shortly worked for a camping store with a pro gear deal that I no longer have.

Finally my waterproof down jacket with hood, and my ultra ultra ultra light waterproof gortex jacket (something like 6oz or something stupid light).

Just to name a few.

I know all about guy lines and reflective chording, but I wasn't aware of the tornados where you shoot.

The thing I DON'T like about the Sierra Designs tent, besides that it's 6lbs instead of the big Agnes 3lb seedhouse SL (now they have a 2lb UL version) but the main issue is that it has TERRIBLE ventilation, and in my area the air is often damp, and I couldn't stand it, the Big Agnes is much better about that, and just as waterproof if not MORE waterproof than the Sierra Designs which is extremely water tight itself. Oh and the single pole Sierra Designs doesn't stand on it's own, which can be trouble in rocky areas so all those things lead me to the Big Agnes tent.

Anyway, thanks for the details on your storm behavior, I'm sure it may save my life someday.

Stone, nice collection of mountaineering tools. When I was a kid, my equipment was much more basic. I have three down sleeping bags 20, 0, and -15. All of them use 550 fill and over 30 years in age. They are in mint condition and compared to todays bags, they are heavy. At the time I bought them 550 fill was the best you could get.

Mountains do not have tornados, they have localized hurricanes. There is one happening right now in the peaks to the west of me. I can tell by how the clouds are smothering the peaks.

Camera gear and mountaineering gear is so expensive. I think they see us coming and jack everything up. It can add up real fast.

I can remember camping in Vermont and New Hampshire in all that humidity. Camping there was a damp muggy experience. I hated it. That all changed when I moved west. Camping in the west is a dry pleasant experience. I love it.

Thanks for sharing. I love to see how other people solve problems, and the types of equipment they use. Way cool Stone.

[Stephen Willard]

I have three Sierra Design tents, and all of those are over 20 years old. I was at REI recently and was looking at some of their tents. I will not consider upgrade proven equipment unless there is some compelling new functionality to be realized. The tents had side entrances making access to the interior of the tent mush easier. Some of the flies had clear plastic windows so that you could see what was happing outside. I like that, but was concerned if the plastic windows would hold up over time. They all had more head room, and yes were lighter. These features are sufficient for me to consider upgrading my main tent :(.

The tent I have now weights 3.75 pounds. I am comfortable with that weight if it will give me a larger foot print. Sometime I have to hold up in my tent for days and that can get rough. A bigger tent would help mitigate tent fever. I have looked at the MSR Hubba Hubba NX-2 which weighs about the same as my current tent, is notably bigger, packs smaller, and packs faster then my current tent.

I am open to all serious considerations and recommendations. Thanks.

[StoneNYC]

You say your tent is old yet 3.75 lbs is pretty light unless you are one who gets rid of the bag etc, so is that the trail wait or packed weight?

I almost always would recommend Big Agnes for ultralight, they (as of 2009, not sure now) are the only company who actually have their own fabric manufacturing, rather than outsourcing, which allows them to design fabric custom to their specs, which mans super light strong designs... I mean one of their TWO person tents is UNDER 2lbs...

Anyway, I don't like Sierra Designs for the ventilation issues and they haven't come out with anything innovative in a long time, I would choose North Face over their tent (and that's saying something, North Face as a company is so huge, their quality and innovation is no longer what it used to be) Mountain Hardware is the other way to go, really top notch stuff, though now that they got bought by Columbia I've seen a few obvious Columbia products labeled as Mountain Hardware, and by obvious I mean a rain jacket that weighs 4lbs instead of 0.4lbs, true Mountain Hardware designs are light and well built, not as light as Big Agnes as far as tents, but their innovation in design is awesome and it might be said the extra weight is worth the endurance.

That said, each company has their specialty....

Big Agnes: Tents
Mountain Hardware: winter gear; Sleeping Bags, Winter Jackets, Rain Jackets and pants, hats. Summer hiking pants.
Lowa/Asolo: Lowa for broad feet, Asolo for narrow feet, both excellent in their own ways. For me it started out Asolo but I discovered my toes are just too wide for their boot, the Lowa fit better with less blister issues than I've ever had, even in shoes rated at half the weight I was carrying (circumstance, not by choice, normally the rating is more than just the absorption weight/impact but also the ankle support etc).
Solomon/OP: winter gloves, base camp insulated boots, summer rain hats.
Smartwool/Dahlgreen/icebreaker: socks, thermal underwear, neck wraps, all the wool stuff, not the synthetic crap.
MSR: for stoves obviously, and maybe cool wear? I'm not happy with my pots, they are easy to clean with a non-stick surface but way to heavy, and don't seal easily, I have used titanium on solo trips if using those freeze dried packs, but any real food you need a different pot. I prefer white gas to the tanks, and have had my Whisperlight international for 20 years, though I was looking at the new one which ALSO takes those butane tanks, having that as an option is nice if you want to share it with a lamp (as I saw you have Stephen), but it won't die and I don't like to replace functioning equipment just for the newer better thing unless it's Increadibly better. (But I will admit that Hubba Hubba newer design with lighter weight does look really appealing and the double side doors are a huge plus... I might be getting a new tent... But it's not LIGHTER than my current tent, and isn't that what this thread is about, getting lighter?... Hmm decisions...).

Finally, packs are a hard one... The pack that I prefer overall, is a Mountain Hardwear design that got tons of awards for innovation and then was discontinued for two serious reasons, that I'm willing to deal with because of it's awesomeness...

It creaks, it's this hybrid internal/external stuff carbon fiber exoskeleton type pack, with a bearing on the waist connector so as you lean forward or back, the entire pack pivots with you, it's amazing, it also squeaks as you walk... On top of that, in theory, if you somehow break it on the trail, it would be difficult to repair, and finally, because it's such a stuff frame, which takes a while to adjust to your body, but once proper, is just awesome, except this makes it very difficult to take on a plane as the stuff waist connections could break, so you have to then add the pack in an oversized suitcase and lay the sleeping bag in the waist area to keep it from being crushed by airport personnel.

But it's so stiff when hiking that I deal because it's so easy to traverse any ground with it.
After that I like Gregory packs because of some of their ultra light packs they use with the UL lamina rip-stop fabric, but they aren't stiff like the MH one...

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

I can't recommend a specific Big Agnes, as I said I have the Seedhouse SL, it's a "super light" which is a little more durable than the "ultra light" which is lighter. But though I love it's easy setup and weight, the entryway leaves something to be desired, and if it got shredded, I would consider looking at one of their side entry tents.

[Kodachrome25]

I have the Seedhouse SL, awesome tent and certainly priced right. I know the company owners, based out of Steamboat. But as far as tip-top of the line in single wall, Drew called it with the Bibblers. A buddy of mine did a remote ski traverse this Winter with another buddy, they had to go light and fast and used a new version that is pitched with either trekking or ski poles. One night they had 65+ MPH winds on a ridge, then tent held up great which is impressive because it tips the scales at just over a pound.

The sleeping bag I used to do the Kautz ice chute on Mt. Rainier, another one pounder...impressive stuff that makes a big difference in the big picture.

[StoneNYC]

I have the Seedhouse SL, awesome tent and certainly priced right. I know the company owners, based out of Steamboat. But as far as tip-top of the line, Drew called it with the Bibblers. A buddy of mine did a remote ski traverse this Winter with another buddy, they had to go light and fast and used a new version that is pitched with either trekking or ski poles. One night they had 65+ MPH winds on a ridge, then tent held up great which is impressive because it tips the scales at just over a pound.

The sleeping bag I used to do the Kautz ice chute on Mt. Rainier, another one pounder...impressive stuff that makes a big difference in the big picture.

I'm looking for bibler and all I get is black diamond...

[paulr]

I think Todd Bibler sold to Black Diamond (http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/tents-and-bivys) several years ago. BD is a great company; I'd trust their work just as much.

All the Bibler-style single-wall tents are best for winter use, IMO. Too dark, damp, and stuffy for warmer weather. In winter there's enough temperature and humidity differential to keep the air moving and to let the fabric breathe.

[StoneNYC]

I think Todd Bibler sold to Black Diamond (http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/tents-and-bivys) several years ago. BD is a great company; I'd trust their work just as much.

All the Bibler-style single-wall tents are best for winter use, IMO. Too dark, damp, and stuffy for warmer weather. In winter there's enough temperature and humidity differential to keep the air moving and to let the fabric breathe.

Yeah, as I mentioned before the humidity in this area is just way too high for a lot of tense, so one of the biggest factors for me is the airflow circulation a tent will have for three seasons, so even with the hubba hubba, i'm not sure if the air circulation is good enough, I have to see how the rain fly guys out in person and that will give me a much better idea of how the air circulation will be handled by the tent,but certainly it's something that big Agnes understands which actually surprises me a little because they are in a very dry climate but somehow are able to grasp the concept or have accidentally stumbled upon it through their designs.

I really wish I could just have access to one of their facilities, I don't care which tent company, but I wish they would just let me go in with a bunch of fabric sewer people and design my own damn tent because I'm sure that I could build one to my exacting specifications that no one could beat for a long time, because I'm pretty particular when it comes to my tent, and I think that my designs would blow away the competition, it's just a question of access to the right materials and design patents to which I don't have any at all... Lol

[paulr]

I don't know what's available now, but I've used a couple of tents where the entire body was mesh. All the weather proofness came from the fly. These were obviously not winter tents, but were true 3-season designs. I used them comfortably at high altitudes in the rockies when summer temps dipped below freezing and there was plenty of wind. Sems like this kind of thing would be ideal in a soggy conditions. On clear nights you can leave the fly off and sleep under the stars, but without mosquitoes in your ears.

[Stephen Willard]

To Stone and Dan,

Thanks for your responses. Very informative. Excellent.

This upgrade has to be feature driven. If you recommend a solution that has the same tent architecture of my current tent then I will not upgrade. The tent weight and NOT pack weight of my current tent is 3 lbs. 11 oz.. I am not married to any particular product so I wide open to all possibilities. Money is not a consideration. Again feature driven and 3.75 lbs..

Please take moment to listen to two short overview and setup videos of the MSR Hubba Hubba tents and tell me what you think. These tents are packed with the features that are motivating to consider an upgrade.

The link is: http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/tents/experience-series/hubba-hubba-nx/product

Thanks for your time an effort...

[Drew Wiley]

I sometimes hang out with the folks who own/run that Black Diamond thing as well as another major outdoor mfg, so have had samples of certain new products on some of our trips to test under moderately adverse conditions. (Just don't tell anyone that these are Long Island folks that I hike with, or it will ruin my hard-earned reputation for hating New Yorkers). The Bibler products are basically the same - they simply own it, but under that name also have some second-string cheaper tents
of the nature you'd describe, Stone. Believe me, it's all been tried, and no, you cannot make an equal product to the real deal cheaply. The fabric is proprietary.
If you want to try truck wrap of housewrap, it will keep the water out a few hours, but once it reaches saturation.... Or if you happen to be camped under certain
trees, the tannins dripping off the trees act as surfactants and let water straight through. I knew this decades ago. There's another very expensive fabric Hilleberg
uses which gets praise among winter travelers; but wet snow is another issue. A pal of mine spent a miserable month in one of those things in the Fall, and sold
it off immediately and bought a Bibler. I have a Big Agnes tent for ultralight use. It will hold out the rain and moderate snow fine, but isn't even begun to be built
for anything really serious above timberline. Nice summer tent in the Sierras. And like other coated nylon Chinese products, you'll get a skin rash in the thing if
it's not aired out a few weeks first. Even Black Diamond hiking poles will give your hands a rash due to the excess pthalate plasticizers if you'd don't scrub the hell off the handles in the first place. My nephew got to test all kinds of expensive gear for free by North Face, Sierra Designs, etc when they sponsored his various
expeditions to the Arctic, Andes, Himalayas, etc. All they wanted was some pictures of some extreme location with their logo prominent on some piece of gear in
the foreground. It was quite a gig. But we also learned a lot about such gear under extreme conditions. ... Now that I'm getting older and lazier I just carry my
Bibler on the perimeter of the summer season. June thru Sept, the cheapie Big Agnes is usually adequate if enough time is allowed to line in out correctly. With
the Bibler you can do everything from the inside while all hell is breaking loose outside. I once had a Sierra Designs tent literally shatter apart from a two inch
thick ice rime that suddenly accumulated in just about the wildest storm I've ever been in. I basically had to wear my raingear inside the tent! Fortunately, the
freezing rain turned to snow later that nite, so I got a nice layer of powder insulation which kept me from freezing in that mess.

[Drew Wiley]

Stephen - if you like the layout of the MSR... but otherwise, no advantages over Big Agnes or any of the other Chinese fabrics. Just ordinary coated stuff. One nite
I decided to camp in that wind tunnel up under Fremont Peak for some goofy reason (probably hunting for a picture). Quite a nice storm came in and I was totally
comfortable in my Bibler. The next morning when I hiked down toward Titcomb Basin and then the lake below that (Island?) where the campers typically are, it was
amusing (at least for me) to see various folks wringing the water out of their sleeping bags and so forth, when their allegedly expedition-quality Sierra Designs and
so forth tents had failed in the seams. Some of these were pretty substantial and expensive - not exactly backpacker pup tents. But I've pretty much seen it all
by now. Just don't gamble on the housewrap fabric tents. They only work in powder snow or a brief storm, not when things stay damp. It's an OK fabric for groundcloths, but not for any serious weather. I'm no expect in the Winds like you are, but I've certainly been in my share of real storms there.

[Stephen Willard]

You say your tent is old yet 3.75 lbs is pretty light unless you are one who gets rid of the bag etc, so is that the trail wait or packed weight?

I almost always would recommend Big Agnes for ultralight, they (as of 2009, not sure now) are the only company who actually have their own fabric manufacturing, rather than outsourcing, which allows them to design fabric custom to their specs, which mans super light strong designs... I mean one of their TWO person tents is UNDER 2lbs...

Anyway, I don't like Sierra Designs for the ventilation issues and they haven't come out with anything innovative in a long time, I would choose North Face over their tent (and that's saying something, North Face as a company is so huge, their quality and innovation is no longer what it used to be) Mountain Hardware is the other way to go, really top notch stuff, though now that they got bought by Columbia I've seen a few obvious Columbia products labeled as Mountain Hardware, and by obvious I mean a rain jacket that weighs 4lbs instead of 0.4lbs, true Mountain Hardware designs are light and well built, not as light as Big Agnes as far as tents, but their innovation in design is awesome and it might be said the extra weight is worth the endurance.

That said, each company has their specialty....

Big Agnes: Tents
Mountain Hardware: winter gear; Sleeping Bags, Winter Jackets, Rain Jackets and pants, hats. Summer hiking pants.
Lowa/Asolo: Lowa for broad feet, Asolo for narrow feet, both excellent in their own ways. For me it started out Asolo but I discovered my toes are just too wide for their boot, the Lowa fit better with less blister issues than I've ever had, even in shoes rated at half the weight I was carrying (circumstance, not by choice, normally the rating is more than just the absorption weight/impact but also the ankle support etc).
Solomon/OP: winter gloves, base camp insulated boots, summer rain hats.
Smartwool/Dahlgreen/icebreaker: socks, thermal underwear, neck wraps, all the wool stuff, not the synthetic crap.
MSR: for stoves obviously, and maybe cool wear? I'm not happy with my pots, they are easy to clean with a non-stick surface but way to heavy, and don't seal easily, I have used titanium on solo trips if using those freeze dried packs, but any real food you need a different pot. I prefer white gas to the tanks, and have had my Whisperlight international for 20 years, though I was looking at the new one which ALSO takes those butane tanks, having that as an option is nice if you want to share it with a lamp (as I saw you have Stephen), but it won't die and I don't like to replace functioning equipment just for the newer better thing unless it's Increadibly better. (But I will admit that Hubba Hubba newer design with lighter weight does look really appealing and the double side doors are a huge plus... I might be getting a new tent... But it's not LIGHTER than my current tent, and isn't that what this thread is about, getting lighter?... Hmm decisions...).

Finally, packs are a hard one... The pack that I prefer overall, is a Mountain Hardwear design that got tons of awards for innovation and then was discontinued for two serious reasons, that I'm willing to deal with because of it's awesomeness...

It creaks, it's this hybrid internal/external stuff carbon fiber exoskeleton type pack, with a bearing on the waist connector so as you lean forward or back, the entire pack pivots with you, it's amazing, it also squeaks as you walk... On top of that, in theory, if you somehow break it on the trail, it would be difficult to repair, and finally, because it's such a stuff frame, which takes a while to adjust to your body, but once proper, is just awesome, except this makes it very difficult to take on a plane as the stuff waist connections could break, so you have to then add the pack in an oversized suitcase and lay the sleeping bag in the waist area to keep it from being crushed by airport personnel.

But it's so stiff when hiking that I deal because it's so easy to traverse any ground with it.
After that I like Gregory packs because of some of their ultra light packs they use with the UL lamina rip-stop fabric, but they aren't stiff like the MH one...

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

I can't recommend a specific Big Agnes, as I said I have the Seedhouse SL, it's a "super light" which is a little more durable than the "ultra light" which is lighter. But though I love it's easy setup and weight, the entryway leaves something to be desired, and if it got shredded, I would consider looking at one of their side entry tents.

Stone, this is excellent. I am pouring over it and considering all of your suggestions. Thanks you for your time and efforts.

Keep in mind that I am out in the field 60 to 70 days a year, year after year. That can put a lot of stress on any equipment especially tents. I know of no one who spends more time than I do in the field, and there is a good chance that my equipment gets used more than anyone else's in the country.

Just for the record, I have two MSR Dragon Fly stoves that I use 4-5 times a day between cooking and making hot beverages. They are real work horses, and high-octane white gas pound for pound delivers more energy than any other fuel. I bought the stoves when they were first introduced, and I have used them in -30 degree weather. The stoves can simmer or blow-torch anything.

I have upgraded my MSR stainless steel cookware to Jetboil pots. The Jetboil pots have fins on the bottom of the pots making them more efficient, and they have reduced my fuel consumption by 60%. They are lighter and nonstick coated, and they have graduated volumes punched on the side making it easier to add the right amounts of water or other ingredients.

I have tried the optional MSR fins that attach to the side of their pots to increase efficiency, but they add a lot of weight and get gunked up with lots of spilled food. So far I really like the Jetboil pots. Like all non-stick coated pots, you have to be careful not to scratch off the coating.

[NancyP]

Big Agnes Fly Creek 1-person tent, with footprint, 1# 14oz., can leave tent behind and use fly plus footprint (but then there are the summer bugs!). It is tiny, but I am short at 5'6", and it gives me plenty of space for gear and pad, and enough space to sit up, change clothing. 3-season only, but there is no true winter blizzard weather to speak of where I camp currently. Entry is awkward, one has to back into the tent, precluding any water boiling just outside the vestibule. Bug screen covers the entire roof of the tent so in good weather I can skip the fly and watch the moon and stars, bug free. Actually, I am often popping out of the tent, sticking the camera on the tripod, and doing night landscapes with my fave constellations, planets, or Moon. That is one type of photography that has been transformed by the advent of good digital sensors - in this case a Canon 6D, a very nice landscape DSLR. BA has nice detailing of their products, reflective guy lines, easy-peasy set-up poles, quality zippers. BA also makes a ridiculously warm and comfy insulated "q-core" air pad, 1# 11oz weight about twice that of a 2/3 length inflatable thermarest, but also twice as warm (R 5).

[Kodachrome25]

I think Todd Bibler sold to Black Diamond (http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/tents-and-bivys) several years ago. BD is a great company; I'd trust their work just as much.

Ah, that makes sense, one of them guides BC so I know for a fact they get pro deals through BD and yeah, BD is a top rung outfit, great pairing!

[Kodachrome25]

I really wish I could just have access to one of their facilities, I don't care which tent company, but I wish they would just let me go in with a bunch of fabric sewer people and design my own damn tent because I'm sure that I could build one to my exacting specifications that no one could beat for a long time, because I'm pretty particular when it comes to my tent, and I think that my designs would blow away the competition, it's just a question of access to the right materials and design patents to which I don't have any at all... Lol

You could commit to the idea, prototype it and see if you can't find a facility. I would start with the makers of the components you want to see on the tent like the main shell.

Or...

Come out and meet Big Agnes in person, most of these guys like Big A and Osprey are pretty amenable to grabbing a coffee and talking shop, which is very different than the constant barrage of emails and calls. I have several improved designs for the vintage one-time Galen Rowell chest pouch made by Photoflex that I am really tired of not seeing made. So it is the same thing, I need to solidly prototype it and get someone, anyone to make it. It is for things like hiking in a downpour, skiing in pow and the like but like the Rowell pouch, the camera's strap has to remain around your neck for reasons of fast access.

But I know what you mean, I have certain things like the lack of a thin walled waterproof chest pouch bugging the crap out of me.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then find a partner and conceive...:-)

[Drew Wiley]

Those Jetboils are just a tad too bulky for my pack already crammed view camera gear, but sure do the job fast otherwise. Usually someone in the party has one,
unless I'm hiking alone. I'd like to see if the prototype Black Diamond tent we tested two summers ago ever made it to market. Not one of the Bibler designs. It was way roomier than any of the usual at only about a pound heavier than my Fly Creek solitary confinement cell, but three people could sit in the thing comfortably,
or two sleep with room for all the gear. Depended upon using two trekking or ski poles for support, but did so in a more stable manner than any other ultralight I've
seen. Don't know about severe snowload yet. We only got about half a foot of snow at a time, but otherwise, just about every other kind of wet you can imagine.
The basic problem with using trekking poles is that sometimes you need them even around camp. This fellow found out the hard way trying to get back and forth
across the creek using his Gitzo instead. Most pole-propped ultralights let in wind something awful, and don't work well above timber. This one did fine. No substitute for a true expedition tent like the real-deal Bibler, but probably fine for three-season usage. Have no idea what it would sell for, but no doubt more than
the usual lightwt product. I'll have to ask and see if they had a marketing name for it. ... As kids we'e just use our big rain ponchos for emergency tents, or a simple tube tent. I sometimes just carry a simple tarp or tube tent still on those relatively rare trips I don't plan on getting above timberline and the forecast looks
stable. I once survived a Spring trip three days in an igloo. The snow conditions were too wet for the real deal, so I used a bowie knife to quickly hack a bunch
of dwarf willow branches (common at higher altitudes), wove them into a beaver-lodge style basket, then packed snow snowman-style over it. It quickly froze
solid and made a nice shelter for what otherwise would have been a fatal misadventure. I survived food-wise ice-fishing. High caloric intake was essential.

[Drew Wiley]

... here we go again, but we give whole tech seminars to architects etc who plan on using the very housewrap materials which someone like Black Diamond uses for
mass producing B-line "Bibler" tents and other ultralights, so I'm usually way ahead of the learning curve. The real Biblers are a triple-layer customized Goretex fabric.

[Kodachrome25]

... here we go again, but we give whole tech seminars to architects etc who plan on using the very housewrap materials which someone like Black Diamond uses for
mass producing B-line "Bibler" tents and other ultralights, so I'm usually way ahead of the learning curve. The real Biblers are a triple-layer customized Goretex fabric.

Whew...dude...

BD is a rock solid company, their equipment helps to prevent the loss of and saves lives daily!

I hate to say this but with all your talk of adventures, the work you do, the printing, the darkroom, the broken Gitzo's...it's time for the "reveal" man....it is getting pretty wind-baggy without any kind of visual context.

I am glad when I hear a good piece of info from you, and I generally know when I do, but kind of like when Steve called me out on this thread, I agreed with that and produced something to back up what I was saying...you might want to start doing the same.....

Or, face being increasingly ignored and I know that would not be fun for you because anyone can tell you love photography.

[Drew Wiley]

Sorry, but nuthin windbaggy... the characteristics of these very fabrics are highly studied and an architect can end up with a bldg condemned if he doesn't understand right up front what tent designers never ask unless they find out the hard way. So losing a few hundred thousand dollars on a mistake would kinda
skew the learning curve, wouldn't it - not to mention a class action suit potentially in the billions? So don't tell me what is "rock solid" and what is not, particularly
when I'm right there with someone field testing the prototypes. And now all kinds of medical issues are showing up with pthalate allergic reactions to all kinds of
import products, and it's pretty damn obvious what the source is. I'm paid to know this kinda stuff, for heaven's sake. And no, I am not guessing, whatsoever.
You can simply pull the tech sheets if you want. Anyone can. We all know about those characteristics here - some more than me. We're expected to know that
stuff. Outdoor gear people aren't. We recycle hundreds of square yards of these very fabrics every week. Got whole containers of them headed to recycle. Got whole new rolls for sale too. They weren't ever designed for tents in the first place. Tent makers discovered them. But there's a reason they are a tenth the price of something like ToddTex. Sure you could make your own tent that way, but Black Diamond and others have already done it, mass-produced in China.

[Drew Wiley]

Strange day, indeed... but this same fellow just called me on a tech question. His best friend owns Black Diamond, and one of his brother's runs Archteryx, and it
appears that room tent I referred to is not in fact in production. ... and another odd thing, both these owners live on the same road on the river up in Bend where
my nephew just bought a house. Small world.

[Drew Wiley]

OK ... I get it, Kodachrome. But no, I have no intention of posting web images, if that's what you expect.

[paulr]

I sometimes hang out with the folks who own/run that Black Diamond thing...

Black Diamond is an employee-owned company, so that could be the receptionist.

It was founded by Yvon Chouinard, who at one time or another revolutionized almost every type of climbing equipment.

As far as Bibler's fabric being proprietary, it's because they originally used gore-tex, with a textured inner laminate that helped spread condensation. A couple of states outlawed goretex tents, because they are fire hazards. The gore-tex membrane itself isn't flamable, but it keeps nylon from melting away from a fire (if you hold a match up to a piece of tent fabric, it will almost always open up a hole that quickly melts away from the flame). The gore tex tents with the textured liner don't do this, and so they go up in flames more easily.

Bibler switched to another, essentially identical waterproof/breathable fabric that had not been specifically outlawed. But it's functionally the same. I don't think Todd Bibler made any claims for his "Todtex" other than that it worked as well as the origninal.

The newer generation of single-wall tents (like the others sold by BD) use a less complex laminate construction. They're cheaper and also lighter. I have not heard anything bad about these.

[paulr]

Whew...dude...

BD is a rock solid company, their equipment helps to prevent the loss of and saves lives daily!

Agreed. I've used gear from just about every outdoor manufacturer. Some make a better this or a better that, but BD up in the pantheon with just a handful of others who are equally commited to quality and r&d. You can tell the best companies ...the athletes they sponsor are at the center of the r&d process.

My college friend Will Gadd is sponsored by BD. He blogs about the generations of prototypes he brings on the most difficult climbs in the world. He includes his negative criticism, and mentions products from competing companies that he prefers ... he's not a shill. If you're not familiar with him he's a former Ice climbing World Cup champion and one of the best alpine and mixed climbers of the last two decades. Seeing him climb in college inspired me to pursue easier things, like taking pictures.

[Drew Wiley]

Wrong on all counts, Paul, except that TodTex was temporarily banned from certain states (incl here) for flammability rating issues. It was a custom triple-layer fabric with a very specific perm rating, is still made, and is NOT the same thing as what is used in their cheaper tents, which never were marketed by Bibler himself. To call something employee-owned does not mean the ownership is anywhere near equal, or that just everyone is in charge. It is defacto owned by one particular person who makes the key decisions. That's how most "employee owned" companies work. Somebody has to be responsible and be in charge. My friend was here less than five minutes ago. His wife outright bought a huge outdoor factory facility. It's at least a sixty million dollar piece of property at the moment, so I think I know the difference between that kind of thing and what a secretary does. Argue if you just like to. You don't have to believe me. There are other uses for the web, like simply looking up the perm ratings and tear resistance, and surfactant susceptibilies of any of these fabrics. Maybe sounds like meaningless numbers,
but in a sustained blizzard it can sure make a difference, possibly between life and death.

[Stephen Willard]

Here is an exhaustive list I have of companies that manufacture tents. Could each of you rate them from 1-10, ten being the best, each company in terms of the quality and workmanship based on your own personal preferences. Thanks

Big Angus
Black Diamond
Marmot
MSR
REI
Mountain Hardwear
Sierra Designs
North Face
Kelty
Easton
Exped

Thanks...

[Kodachrome25]

That's a lot of tents, I can only really speak to using three of them so that means Mtn. Hardware, Black Angus and Marmot...

[Drew Wiley]

Black Diamond in the sense of the true (expensive) Bilber line is in a league by itself on that list, Stephen. The ONLY expedition-quality product. There are some others. I should have asked more about Arcteryx - the fellow visiting me a few minutes ago has a brother who runs that company.. (no, not the secretary... I don't
think they get his kind of pay). All the others you list are run-of-the-mill products, but might have features a little more comfortable until things get really rough,
and they just wear out. Sierra Designs in now strictly an importer, for example, cause it's that very factory complex my friends bought and completely remodeled.
Almost nothing is domestic anymore. Another expensive "expedition" product is the Hilleburg euro brand, but a hiking companion of mine was so miserable from the
condensation in one of those things last fall he sold it immediately after the trip and bought a Bibler. Might be fine for dry cold powder snow conditions, but not for
our very wet three-season Sierra precipitation. I mentioned your llama trips to my pal and discussed your tent needs. He's done a lot of climbing out that way -
basically independently wealthy at this point in life, though at the moment is climbing up the old Sierra Designs water tower to do some epoxy repairs. They saved
$600,000 of sandblasting expense simply by going up there on ropes and using an epoxy mastic with painters mitts for the lead paint containment, then DTM acrylic, which I supplied. But ya gotta see these tents set up and how they might feel sitting out a blizzard in them. Having side zipper doors and a vestibule with
a Bibler makes it a lot more comfortable then the basic back-in front door lighter version I use.

[neil poulsen]

I know that, if I were ultralight, I could carry a lot more equipment.

[StoneNYC]

Here is an exhaustive list I have of companies that manufacture tents. Could each of you rate them from 1-10, ten being the best, each company in terms of the quality and workmanship based on your own personal preferences. Thanks

Big Angus
Black Diamond
Marmot
MSR
REI
Mountain Hardwear
Sierra Designs
North Face
Kelty
Easton
Exped

Thanks...

What Kodachrome said... Heck the only Exped I own is a sleeping pad and it's amazing! I didn't even know they made tents lol.

Here goes...these ratings are for TENTS only, and do not apply to all their products.

Big Angus - 9
Black Diamond - N/A
Marmot - N/A
MSR - 8
REI - 7
Mountain Hardwear 8.5
Sierra Designs - 6
North Face - 4-7 (hit or miss)
Kelty - 5
Easton - N/A
Exped - N/A

Much of my experience in viewing can't design comes from a few years back when I worked part-time at an Eastern Mountain sports (EMS) which is essentially the East Coast version of REI and I would give EMS the same rating on tents as REI, they are good, but never "blow me away".

I have to say I wish that I knew about the hubba hubba years ago, or rather I did know about it but it didn't have some of the upgrades that this current one does. I ended up with a big Agnes six person base camp tent that was more for things like festivals etc. attend that was large and also had an extendable vestibule that allowed me to place things like my bicycle inside of it... This has been great as a family tent as well now that I'm getting older and dating someone with a child, but had I known that I could get a vestibule type design in a smaller tent I might've considered consolidating to the one hubba hubba rather than having this ginormous Big Agnes tent.

The one thing that you have to realize is that the weights listed on the real weights because you have to consider the fact that you're going to have a footprint, if you don't have a footprint you're an idiot because your tent is likely to get scratched up at the bottom, so you always have to add the weight of the footprint into things, and it's always a good idea to have a little mesh and some extra steaks and making sure that you had the guyline weight into all of that. So the big Agnes I own with all of the extras and the being lighter still then the hubba hubba when all is said and done, but only slightly, and yet the hubba hubba has tons more room.

I have a decision to make because I have to make sure that I can get my current girlfriend into camping more and so I need to have a tent that will be comfortable for her and won't have her annoyed with me being so cramped together, and also I need a new pair of heavy duty hiking boots, this mostly comes from the fact that I have a pair of Asolo that where my heavy duty ones, but I decided that my toes are just too big for them, and so I purchased a lightweight hiker by Lowa, and I was blown away. The store I was at at the time didn't have an acceptable heavyweight Lowa in stock in my size and I had an eight day trip coming up, and ended up using the lightweight hikers even though I knew it might be dangerous but knowing that it would be better for my feet than the Asolo's (which are also good, it just depends on your foot shape) so I now have to also purchase heavyweight this year, which puts a big financial strain on things between a new tent and new expensive heavy hikers, it's a tall bill.. For me I understand the value of price is no option when it comes to my health and safety, however obviously since I already own attend this is more of a comfort issue going forward than anything, and the parts are the more important thing... There's always something really great out there, however the more that I research this tent the more I like the hubba hubba, but I won't give it as high rating as the big Agnes line because the older MSR tents weren't as good as big Agnes back in 2008 (in my opinion) from what my store carried, though that rating may go up when I actually get to see it in person.

[Greg Miller]

That's pretty interesting. According to my brokerage company, Black Diamond Equipment, Inc. (a leading global supplier of innovative active outdoor performance equipment and apparel (principal brands Black Diamond, Gregory, POC, PIEPS) headquartered in SLC, Utah) trades on the Nasdaq exchange with a market capitalization of $370,000,000. Doesn't sound much like "it is is defacto owned by one particular person".

[StoneNYC]

Oh I wanted to add that Marmot winter jackets and other layering such as that for winter are also very excellent superlight and comparative to Mountain Hardware for winter jackets and running gear, and Arcterix brand are pretty good with rain gear. But harder to get and view in person and I believe are a French? Company... So I just go with Mountain Hardwear for my rain stuff and winter gear since it's comparable in my opinion.

[Drew Wiley]

Black Diamond is now mostly a big importer of all kinds of stuff. The little local gear company that some people remember has morphed. Then that something got a kinda employee buyout at one point, and now it's public or whatever doesn't mean it isn't owned and managed by someone with controlling shares. Gosh, how do ya think all the techie companies operate around here that are vastly bigger, or heavy mfg like Warren Bugget controls? Holding a few shares of something does not
mean the public gets anything more than a representative vote at the best. .. And no, don't bother looking for serious tents any place like REI. Here, where North
Face began, you can't even buy real North Face gear in their big store, just import stuff and some seconds. It's just a few blocks away. The reals costs a whole
lot more and they sold it at a relatively tiny second location. My pals were wearing those $200 Arch-howeveryouspellit rainpants in all kinds of weather, just like
regular wear. Not really rainpants, but they'd dry off so fast that they didn't even bother packing real rain pants, while I was half soaked in Levis below parka level,
and couldn't even get miserable hot rainpants on fast enough, conditions would change so ridiculously fast. But outside my own budget right now, though I could
take advantage of my inside track with them and get them at cost - still a lot more than an old pair of Levis! Sometime ya gotta make the hard choices and just
stay wet and miserable so ya can afford another box of 8x10 film!

[Thad Gerheim]

OK - so who exactly is the defacto owner that you spoke of??? I'd like to check how much stock he owns and his position in the company. It is public record after all since it is a defacto public company. Or perhaps you are just blowing smoke out your ass?

Hey, I know one, an acquaintance, not a pal, who with his wife has bought several of my photos. Not that any of this matters one bit. I carpentered on his house about 25 years ago. Several of my friends used him to get deals on telemark skis and boots, I was too shy to ask him. Maybe I should try a trade for one of those ultralight tents so my girlfriend doesn't have to carry our five pound something Sierra Design tent for me on our backpack trips.:)
His name is Phil Duff.

[Bill Burk]

Are you avoiding the cottage industries, or just not aware of them?

Not even extensive, just a few that come to mind...

Six Moon Designs
Mountain Laurel Designs
Henry Shires
Gossamer Gear

But these are ultralight tents and tarps, the kind that might get ripped to shreds in a hurricane.

But, Drew... I don't know why you haven't brought up a pyramid-type tent since the weather you describe would seem well-met with one of them. I feel like if I'm going to share the burden of a "heavy" tent, it had better be up to the worst that can come down. I remember sleeping un-easily in a 3-season tent worried about snow-loading, when I got caught out in an unseasonable snowstorm (it was that trip with my wife).

[rdenney]

Speaking of daycare, there lately seems to always be a few people in the middle of every pissing match. Please think about that.

Now, try again and this time talk about products, not people. I don't care who owns what (Mountain Hardware is owned by Columbia these days, but the Goretex rain shell I bought from them 15 years ago when they were the best on the market now leaks like a sieve. I replaced it with one that was on sale at LL Bean--also Goretex--when I was in Maine in January). But I do care that people on this forum treat each other with respect, as required by the guidelines.

I don't know who started it, and it doesn't matter. All sides seemed to be goading each other--also proscribed in the guidelines. But if I trimmed an innocent, my apologies.

Rick "try again" Denney

[Bill Burk]

I recommend a website to visit, Backpacking Light, where they run a forum for the discussion of lightweight backpacking. I used to spend a lot of time there a few years back, but now only visit on occasion (since I pretty much have all I need). You can learn a lot by reading people's gear lists, the feedback regarding choices can be harsh sometimes.

I think if you posted a gear list and showed 15 pounds of camera gear, you'd get ripped to shreds. One time I saw stainless-steel panniers containing "bat detectors" being offloaded from the Florence Lake ferry. Now those guys weren't travelling light by any stretch of the imagination. But while the guys on Backpacking Light might criticise your decision to bring two pair of shoes (just use some duct tape and blue foam)... I think they'd leave you alone if you said certain gear was necessary for research. Maybe you could just say "scientific equipment" and leave it at that.

[Stephen Willard]

You worry too much, and besides, my wife would never marry a toad, we have appeared in ads together like the usage on the trail map attached below, we are obviously on the left, I used a pocket wizard to trigger it...

111507111506

Pretty wife, pretty guy, and pretty truck. Boy does that pisses me off. Some guys just all the breaks. Curses!

Dan, humor is always risky business. You have to have the guts to walk the line of what is socially incorrect and what is politically incorrect in order to introduce shock and get a good punch line. Sometimes you unintentionally cross the line and hurt someones feelings, and I am deeply bothered when that happens. I guess in some ways you have to be fearless to produce good humor, and if you are truly a fearless mountain man with true grit, then there is a good chance you also will have a very good sense of humor.

So in the future, Dan, if you go to my website and follow the contact link, you can get my address. If ever come to Fort Collins and decide to do a drive by shooting with your pretty wife and pretty truck, then I am okay with that. I completely understand. Most likely I crossed the line and deserved it.

[Stephen Willard]

This was my basecamp on the Grand Teton. You'd bump your head if you squirmed too agressively, and it smelled like pee, but we didn't have to carry anything.

111467

I have come across such stone structures from time to time. I have never been sure if they were rock shelters or latrines. If it is the later, then you got what you deserved. The good news is that us guys don’t need no latrines to let it fly. So chance are what you smelled is female. Whether that makes you feel any better or not is up to you. I won’t judge.

In truth, I always thought you had to be pretty stupid to sleep in one of those things until I did it myself. I think it is safe to say we mountaineers are one part gnarly, one part stupid, and two parts idiot. We parade around in our colorful outer shells like fools crowing, look at me. I am standing on top of a peak and I almost died. Isn’t this fun...

Let face it, we mountaineers are a seriously deranged demographic.

[Stephen Willard]

To Drew,

Mountaineers are simple creatures. Truly! All we really want to do is climb peaks and kill ourself. Personally, I do not think that is asking too much. We have no intention of harming others. So when a bunch of mountaineers get together we love to drink beer, blow methane, and tell lies, and then climb to the top of a mountain in pursuit of a fatal experience so our bodies will be frozen in time. To us, the mountains are a shrine to our dead carcasses. Its absolutely glorious!

[Stephen Willard]

Hahaha! You crack me up! So were you a successful photographer before you met your wife? Or financially successful some other way?


Okay, here is the truth Stone.

My wife is a curvy Irish women with a temper like a nuclear bomb. She is half my size, and she scares the hell out of me. She looks 20 years younger than she really is, and guys half my age hit on her all time including some of my friends which make believe they really are not my friends. One of my friends took her out to dinner while I was in the field and asked her point blank, what the hell do you SEE in Stephen. She thought about that for moment and then said, “I see his MONEY and he has MORE than you do”. Its my only redeeming attribute. What scares me, is that this guy is half my age and very good looking. Whether they had a fling or not, I will probably never know. Oh well...

One thing for sure she an’t going no where because with me she can have deeply moving shopping experiences that most of her gender could only dream of. Every time I go into field I have to live with the possibility that one of those young bucks with testosterone coursing through his veins will steal her from me. Somehow spooning my curvy lenses in bed is not quite the same as spooning my curvy wife in bed.

To my wife, good clean porn is my bank statements. She says she finds them highly arousing, and besides, she loves a man with big numbers if you get my drift. My wife walks around most of the time butt naked in the house. I am sure my neighbors have had sightings, and that probably explains all the foot traffic in front of our home. But seriously, I have to tell you, all those amazing curves. Oh my god! I tell her if she continues doing that, I could go into cardiac arrest. She just looks at me in a dreamy state thinking about all that untethered money. Its not the mountains that are going to kill me. Its my god damn wife!

Now here is the real truth.

Both my wife an I were born poor, married poor, and now we are comfortable. We are not members of the 1% demographic, but close.

Dan’s wife is very sexy, and I know Dan is not a toad. He is a god dam lizard. And that pamphlet he posted has been Photoshoped from here to hell and back.

My wife really does have amazing curves, and young bucks really do hit on her all the time including some of my friends.

As far as what my wife does with my bank statements in the bedroom and whether she really does walk around the house butt naked, well at this time, I am going to leave that to your imagination.

Now back to the joy of tenting....