Buying advice for first LF camera

[andre]

I think the beginning of my LF journey is imminent and I start to have an idea of what type of camera I'd like to have.
Could I ask you for some concrete advice on models. Also considering that I will try to purchase within the EU.
I have never owned or shot a camera before so my points below may be a little off


I would like to do environmental portraits
I will need travel to locations by metro a lot
I'd love a wooden camera for looks & weight
Should be without a rear shutter (am I saying this right?)
Should have a graflok back
Should ideally come with a 127mm or 135mm lens
Will shoot B&W in available light. Lens should not be too contrasty and faster than 5.6


Thanks for having a look :)

[Luis-F-S]

Sorry, your lens/camera criteria are not realistic in the real world in my opinion.

[Regular Rod]

I think the beginning of my LF journey is imminent and I start to have an idea of what type of camera I'd like to have.
Could I ask you for some concrete advice on models. Also considering that I will try to purchase within the EU.
I have never owned or shot a camera before so my points below may be a little off


I would like to do environmental portraits
I will need travel to locations by metro a lot
I'd love a wooden camera for looks & weight
Should be without a rear shutter (am I saying this right?)
Should have a graflok back
Should ideally come with a 127mm or 135mm lens
Will shoot B&W in available light. Lens should not be too contrasty and faster than 5.6


Thanks for having a look :)

Let's see if we can help you with your requirements...

I would like to do environmental portraits You can use any format for that. If you are lucky enough to be able to find subjects then go for it.
I will need travel to locations by metro a lot So long as you are permitted to take a rucksack and a tripod on the metro that's fine.
I'd love a wooden camera for looks & weight Wouldn't we all but they are expensive. Metal cameras are tough and better for use in all weathers and frankly you get used to the weight.
Should be without a rear shutter (am I saying this right?) That is a restriction you might like to get rid of. 4x5 Press Cameras often come with a focal plane shutter. You can ignore it and keep it open, using the camera as a normal 4x5 camera OR you can use cheaper barrel mounted lenses and put the focal plane shutter to work for you.
Should have a graflok back Not necessarily! As long as the back takes standard film holders like Toyo or Fidelity you will be able to source film holders. More importantly you want a revolving back to change between horizontal and vertical formats without moving the camera.
Should ideally come with a 127mm or 135mm lens Usually a 4x5 camera comes with no lens and you buy one separately. Those focal lengths are not exactly portrait lenses. 150 mm is a good general focal length and will be better for those portraits.
Will shoot B&W in available light. Lens should not be too contrasty and faster than 5.6 Only if you are rich will you be able to find a lens faster than [/I]f[/I]5.6 available light is no problem if you use a tripod.


In Europe you can easily find cameras like the MPP MkVI, MkVII and MkVIII. Any of these gives you a very compact but massively capable camera.

http://www.mppusers.com/mtmkvii.jpg

Very easy and quick to set up. Can be used hand-held with a built in range finder coupled with a simple Symmar 150 mm lens would give you a very versatile outfit that is not beyond the reach of a beginner. You will need some double dark slide film holders like the Fidelity or Toyo versions, a changing tent or darkroom to load them from the boxes your film will come in (avoid a bag as this is a recipe for dust on your films), the Harrison Changing Tent is damned good but you can get very good Chinese versions on eBay, if you can afford it get a big one as the extra room is very helpful and makes the loading and unloading much easier. To develop your films I believe the best way currently is to use a modified Paterson Orbital Processor http://freepdfhosting.com/f640343f29.pdf shows you what to do to make it work well.

I suggest MPP because I use a MkVII and find it excellent in every way.

There are alternative cameras. Put a search on eBay and wait...

RR

[Doremus Scudder]

Andre,

I think you can find something to do the job you want it to do fairly easily. There are just a few possible misconceptions behind the criteria you have that need to be addressed first and then you can go exploring for cameras and lenses.

1: Almost any camera will do environmental portraits. If you want a lens in the 135mm range, which is on the wide side of normal for 4x5, any camera will work well with it. The only shortcoming of a 135mm lens is rather limited coverage. If you aren't planning on lots of movements, then, no problem.

2: I live in Vienna. Traveling by U-Bahn here with fairly large rolling cases is no problem at all. Heck, the television crews take all their gear onto the subway here. You can easily get a ton of LF gear in a carry-on-size rolling suitcase. No problems there either.

3: If you like a wooden camera, go for it. There are lots of models that have more than enough movement for a 135mm lens. I use a bare-bones Woodman camera here in Vienna for most of my work. I use it for architectural shots a lot and overcome its limited movements by using point-and-swing techniques, etc. It takes a bit longer, but does the job just fine. The point here: even a camera with fairly limited movements will do the job if you know what you are doing.

4: The only cameras that came with "rear shutters" were press cameras like the Speed Graphics. These will work with in-the-lens shutters too. Press cameras in general have limited movements, but may be good for your application if you don't plan on using lots of movements. They are sturdy, and often have rangefinder focusing, which "view cameras" do not have. You don't have to use the focal-plane shutter if you don't want to.

5. Graflok backs are standard on most 4x5 cameras. You should have no problem finding one.

6: Large-format cameras do not "come" with lenses. You buy a camera; you buy a lens; you get a lensboard that fits your camera with the right size hole for the lens you wish to use; you mount the lens on the lensboard and then you can use the lens on your camera. Yes, sometimes, especially with press cameras that have dedicated lenses for rangefinder focusing, camera and lens are often sold as a package, but this need not be so.

7: Here is where your expectations might not match reality: Large-format lenses are rarely faster than f/5.6. When they are, they are large, heavy and expensive. "Available light" should not be a problem if it is bright enough :) If you are shooting in low-light situations a lot, be prepared for longer shutter speeds (into the seconds often) and try and find some way to have your subjects hold still long enough for the shot. It can be done; every portrait taken before 1900 or so was with exposure times of several seconds.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit for you.

Best,

Doremus

[andre]

Things are becoming much clearer.
Thank you all!

[Leigh]

6: Large-format cameras do not "come" with lenses.
Press cameras did, typically 135mm.

- Leigh

[andre]

Allow me to revive this thread once more. :)
I'm now planning to get a Century Graphic first before I fully commit to large format.
I would like to shoot it on a tripod and focus and compose through the ground glass.

Does this make sense? Or is the Graphic maybe more designed for handheld shooting?
Will I knock the camera out of focus when I insert the rollback?

[Rollinhofuji]

Andre, this makes a lot of sense! Shooting from a tripod will definitely be no problem at all.
Just be gentle when mounting the roll film back. Make sure your tripod is strudy and your tripod head locks down solidly.
The Century Graphic focuses with the front standard, so operating things like roll film or sheet film holders on the back will not affect focussing at all.

IMHO, no LF camera is really designed for hand-held shooting (except special models like Chamonix Sabre, Wanderlust and so on) - they were used that way, and some were useable that way, but that doesn't mean you can't use them on a tripod.

Regarding all other questions, Doremus and Rod already said everything - just go for it :-)

[Leigh]

I'm now planning to get a Century Graphic first before I fully commit to large format.
I would like to shoot it on a tripod and focus and compose through the ground glass.
Hi Andre,

That will work fine. I used a Graphic in that mode for many years.


Does this make sense? Or is the Graphic maybe more designed for handheld shooting?
Yes, it certainly does make sense.

The Graphic and other press cameras were definitely optimized for handheld operation, and were used as such by the thousands every day by press photographers around the world.

As compared with regular field cameras, press cameras have limited movements and the rear is rigidly fixed to the body, but that won't limit your use of the camera. Your ability to correct image geometry is more restricted.


Will I knock the camera out of focus when I insert the rollback?
No, provided your tripod is robust and the head locks down properly.

- Leigh

[andre]

Fantastic! Thank you so much!

I can't wait to re-shoot this on 6x9

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3690/13090911213_f77a36f67e.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/50674652@N06/13090911213/)

[Rollinhofuji]

...or even 4x5? :-) Don't be afraid of sheet film holders!

[Leigh]

...or even 4x5? :-) Don't be afraid of sheet film holders!
For someone considering the transition to LF there are really two completely separate issues.

#1 is the very different camera, with many unfamiliar features.

#2 is sheet film. The person may have no equipment to process same.

It seems reasonable to attempt the transition one step at a time, i.e. LF camera with roll film.

- Leigh

[Rollinhofuji]

OK, roll film was never an option for me (shooting LF since about 3 years now, but started with sheet film directly). But I have to say that I did not develop it by myself back then.

[andre]

For someone considering the transition to LF there are really two completely separate issues.

#1 is the very different camera, with many unfamiliar features.

#2 is sheet film. The person may have no equipment to process same.

It seems reasonable to attempt the transition one step at a time, i.e. LF camera with roll film.

- Leigh

That's indeed the case for me. I would have to upgrade the scanner and developing tank.

And one thing still boggles my mind... How does one get 20-30 sheets of film on location? :confused:

[Rollinhofuji]

That's indeed the case for me. I would have to upgrade the scanner and developing tank.

And one thing still boggles my mind... How does one get 20-30 sheets of film on location? :confused:

Simple - either bring a changing tent (expensive version of a changing bag, but far more convenient. Or, shoot less.

The latter is what I prefer. I usually shoot 6-8 sheets per day trip. That includes backup shots!

[Leigh]

And one thing still boggles my mind... How does one get 20-30 sheets of film on location? :confused:
Easy... Buy more film holders.

I have about 100 of the 4x5 size, and about 30 in 8x10.

- Leigh

[Bill_1856]

Makes sense to me; but you're not really going Large Format. Personally I'd consider a 4x5 Crown Graphic.

[Leigh]

Bill,

You have absolutely no basis for criticizing the OP.

People learn in different ways. Whatever works for the individual is fine.

- Leigh

[Leigh]

Jan,

There's a lot more to LF film than development.

You also need to print it. For 4x5 that usually requires an enlarger.

Upgrading an existing roll-film darkroom to process 4x5 can be an expensive effort.

- Leigh

[Rollinhofuji]

Jan,

There's a lot more to LF film than development.

You also need to print it. For 4x5 that usually requires an enlarger.

Upgrading an existing roll-film darkroom to process 4x5 can be an expensive effort.

- Leigh

That's true Leigh - I recently made this experience, since I set up my first darkroom (worked hybrid before).
There are many different ways to start LF.

Anyway, about 100 sheet film holders for 4x5 - that sounds like a dream to me!

[mathieu Bauwens]

Hello Andre,

I don't know where you are in europe, but take a look at this site for LF camera ; http://www.ffordes.com/home or http://www.adaflex.com/ Both sells new and second hand.

For a good deal, here is a very good priced changing tent ; http://www.panavisionboutique.com/epages/62049344.sf/fr_FR/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62049344/Categories/%22ACCESSOIRES%20ASSISTANTS%22/%22TENTES%20DE%20CHARGEMENT%22

[Alan Gales]

Easy... Buy more film holders.

I have about 100 of the 4x5 size, and about 30 in 8x10.

- Leigh

Have you ever had them all loaded at the same time, Leigh? :cool:

[Leigh]

Have you ever had them all loaded at the same time, Leigh? :cool:
Most of them, yes. 100%... dunno. ;-) The pouches each carry six holders, so 16 pouches = 96 holders.

In 4x5 I shoot both b&w and chromes. I load full pouches (12 sheets) of each type.

Between pre-loaded holders at the office, pouches in the darkroom awaiting processing, and those with me, I
expect I've been pretty close to having all 16 pouches loaded.

- Leigh

[NancyP]

Welcome fellow newbie!
Fast lens and large format = HEAVY, HUGE - laws of physics... See this thread, first post, third row of photos, click to enlarge - note relatively tiny SLR next to an f/2.5 Aero Ektar aerial reconnaissance lens.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?108816-Lots-of-Lenses!-Dagors-Aero-Ektars-WF-and-more-also-a-Linhof-4x5&highlight=aero+ektar

[Alan Gales]

Most of them, yes. 100%... dunno. ;-) The pouches each carry six holders, so 16 pouches = 96 holders.

In 4x5 I shoot both b&w and chromes. I load full pouches (12 sheets) of each type.

Between pre-loaded holders at the office, pouches in the darkroom awaiting processing, and those with me, I
expect I've been pretty close to having all 16 pouches loaded.

- Leigh

Wow! That's cool.

I only own twenty film holders (ten 4x5 and ten 8x10). The most I'll carry with me is five. It's plenty for me for as little as I shoot.

[Drew Bedo]

Didn't Schneider make some LF Xenars and Xenotars with a max aperture of f2.8?

[andre]

Awesome! :)

Thanks for that!


Hello Andre,

I don't know where you are in europe, but take a look at this site for LF camera ; http://www.ffordes.com/home or http://www.adaflex.com/ Both sells new and second hand.

For a good deal, here is a very good priced changing tent ; http://www.panavisionboutique.com/epages/62049344.sf/fr_FR/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62049344/Categories/%22ACCESSOIRES%20ASSISTANTS%22/%22TENTES%20DE%20CHARGEMENT%22

[Rollinhofuji]

Andre, you might also contact Mr. Greiner: www.greiner-photo.com
He is an outstanding LF specialist and always has some new and used cameras, lenses and so on in stock.