Are film holders still being made?

[koh303]

I guess this might have been covered any number of times, but i am wondering, if and where and by whom are film holders being made?

I know Toyo still make them, but aside from Toyo..?

[vinny]

chamonix.
fidelity/lisco shop which is/was owned by calumet in hollywood shut down several years ago. I wish I'd arranged for a tour one of the times I stopped at calumet.

[AtlantaTerry]

Someone somewhere (China?) makes some really crappy 4x5 sheet film holders. I know because I bought two. They came in a box that I don't have anymore so I can't tell you what brand they purport to be.

The problem with them is the two halves are riveted together. That doesn't seem like such a bad idea but what happens is the halves shift a bit then the film slides into the gap and gets pinched. Then when the image is exposed, it is crooked.

Also there is no 4 inch rib which means the film holder can't slip into the groove in the back of the camera. This creates two problems: the holder might not be fully seated so can be pulled out a bit when the dark slide is removed also a rib normally acts as a small light trap but since it is missing it can't.

I bought the two holders from an eBay vendor during a period when I was not actively shooting 4x5 film. By the time I discovered that I had been ripped off, it was too late to ask for a refund under the eBay rules.

So if you are offered 4x5 film holders that are put together with rivets, run!

[Oren Grad]

Lotus, in selected larger sizes. AWB, in larger sizes, maybe, once in a while. Ebony makes holders in whole plate size (but don't look at the price!).

EDIT: There's an eBay seller in Hong Kong, szeto9898, who periodically offers batches of holders in 4x10 and various ULF sizes. I've not bought any myself and don't know anything about where they come from.

ANOTHER EDIT: I'd forgotten that Shen Hao also offers wooden holders in a variety of sizes. I don't know whether they manufacture them.

[tgtaylor]

As far as Toyo 8x10 holders, Quality Camera has posted on their ebay listing for the holder that Toyo will no longer manufacture them once the current inventory is sold. After I read that I managed to bend the front lens board locking lever on my MII and called the MAC Group to order a new part. I ran the Quality statement by them and asked if it were true and they responded that it was news to them. Its currently in stock at MAC USA and if you order one B&H (and other US retailers) will have in in stock for shipping in about a week instead of the 6 - 8 weeks that is posted.

Thomas

[vinny]

I paid 10-20 dollars each of my 27 8x10 holders. How much are those Toyos again?

[tgtaylor]

$213.50 or thereabouts, shipping included. I bought my first 4 Fidelity Elites new from Calumet for $34 each ($68 for 2 - they forgot to change the price in their system and the store went ahead and sold them to me for that). When I went back there were only 2 left in the country - in the Chicago store and they wanted $160 for the pair of $80 each. I could only afford one so I ended up with 5 which I have been using for the past couple or 3 years without complaint. But I always wanted Toyo's since all my 4x5's are Toyo's and really came to like them. Course I never used any other brand. I've looked high and low for good used Toyo's but the closest I came was 10 year old "mint" Toyo's for $165 + shipping. If I'm going to spend that much might as well go a few dollars more and get brand new ones which I did. I'm glad that's over with!

Thomas

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think those holders from Hong Kong without the lock rib were sold under the Tiltall brand.

[Liquid Artist]

$213.50 or thereabouts, shipping included. I bought my first 4 Fidelity Elites new from Calumet for $34 each ($68 for 2 - they forgot to change the price in their system and the store went ahead and sold them to me for that). When I went back there were only 2 left in the country - in the Chicago store and they wanted $160 for the pair of $80 each. I could only afford one so I ended up with 5 which I have been using for the past couple or 3 years without complaint. But I always wanted Toyo's since all my 4x5's are Toyo's and really came to like them. Course I never used any other brand. I've looked high and low for good used Toyo's but the closest I came was 10 year old "mint" Toyo's for $165 + shipping. If I'm going to spend that much might as well go a few dollars more and get brand new ones which I did. I'm glad that's over with!

Thomas
I would image that someone would sell you their stinky Toyo's for a reasonable price, if you though you could handle it.
I don't think I could.

[AtlantaTerry]

I think those holders from Hong Kong without the lock rib were sold under the Tiltall brand.

You just knocked loose an old brain cell. I believe you are right.

[tgtaylor]

You sometimes get what you pay for.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Given the radical advances in automated plastics fabrication and things like affordable CNC devices, it will probably be just a few years before someone figures out
how to make "group order" filmholders on an efficient basis, even more affordably than ever. Let's just hope it gets done right the first time, or the whole concept
will get egg all over its face. Just as the publishing industry is now entering an era of "books on demand", so is on-demand manufacturing. Probably some junior high
kid will figure out how to do it before any of us. ... probably some kid rebelling against his parents and their obsession with consumer electronics by sneaking over
to the bad side of town and hanging out with kids building ULF cameras in some back alley using Lego block protoypes.

[tgtaylor]

Seems like it would be a piece of cake with a 3D printer.

Thomas

[Michael Kadillak]

Glad that I stocked up on new/used 8x10 Toyo holders when I had a chance. Seems like they are rather in short supply at a reasonable price. I thought $100 for new Toyo 8x10 holders was robbery and acquired the 18 I have at far less. Hoping they last a good long time because it appears that is going to be all she wrote for moulded plastic holders of any respectable manufacture.

[chris_4622]

I can see why new film holders are so expensive. I just finished a run of 20 WP holders which took close to 60 hours. Since it was my first time I wasn't as efficient as I would be if I make another batch, but it still is a labor intensive process.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I just finished a run of 20 WP holders which took close to 60 hours...It would be wonderful if you could post some pictures of them and tell us what materials you used. Also, to what (non) "standard" do they conform? Thank in advance for any additional information you can provide.

[chris_4622]

Sal, I'll post some photos later today. I made the holders out of walnut and followed as closely as I could measurements I found on this site that you posted a while back when you had Lotus?? make some for you. My memory isn't what it used to be....The holders weigh in around 8oz. I'll check the other measurements tomorrow when I'm at the shop.

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, I'll post some photos later today. I made the holders out of walnut and followed as closely as I could measurements I found on this site that you posted a while back when you had Lotus?? make some for you. My memory isn't what it used to be....The holders weigh in around 8oz. I'll check the other measurements tomorrow when I'm at the shop.Thanks Chris. Yes, it was Lotus that I originally commissioned to make the holders. Chamonix subsequently patterned its own after one of the Lotus samples I loaned them.

That yours weigh 8 oz. is both shocking and intriguing. Lotus' version comes in at 13.5 oz.; Chamonix's are one ounce heavier than that. Ebony's holder, of cherry and ebony wood with metal septum / dark slides, tips the scale at 19.5 oz. So the big question is: did you drill chambers in your walnut, pump in helium and then seal them? :D:D Which materials are used for the septums and dark slides?

What camera are you using these holders in? Did you make that too? Curiosity has grabbed hold of me in a big way. If you built the camera and its weight is below the competition's to anywhere near the extent your holder's is, that woodworking career might need to be resumed in a big way. :)

[mdarnton]

Just as an aside, I noticed this weekend that Calumet was selling a case quantity of brand new 4x5 holders on Ebay for some amount north of $2300, if I remember the number right. I can't remember if a case was maybe 48?

[chris_4622]

Thanks Chris. Yes, it was Lotus that I originally commissioned to make the holders. Chamonix subsequently patterned its own after one of the Lotus samples I loaned them.

That yours weigh 8 oz. is both shocking and intriguing. Lotus' version comes in at 13.5 oz.; Chamonix's are one ounce heavier than that. Ebony's holder, of cherry and ebony wood with metal septum / dark slides, tips the scale at 19.5 oz. So the big question is: did you drill chambers in your walnut, pump in helium and then seal them? :D:D Which materials are used for the septums and dark slides?

What camera are you using these holders in? Did you make that too? Curiosity has grabbed hold of me in a big way. If you built the camera and its weight is below the competition's to anywhere near the extent your holder's is, that woodworking career might need to be resumed in a big way. :)

Sal,

I used garolite xx for the septums and dark slides, 1/32" thick. It is okay for this size holder but I wouldn't use it for sizes that are bigger. I posted some photos on flickr but I am such a dinosaur I can't remember how to put them so they show up here. My user name on flickr is the same here.

As far as the camera goes I did make one but it isn't any lighter than the ones out there. And now that I made it I have been hacking it up to make some changes.

I do have a desire to make some bigger holders and I've been thinking of 11x14 or even 14x17, but that will have to wait. Spring is coming and I want to get out with the WP.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I posted some photos on flickr but I am such a dinosaur I can't remember how to put them so they show up here. My user name on flickr is the same here...It appears you posted two of them. I don't know how to make them appear here either, but how about a link


http://www.flickr.com/photos/20127080@N00/12595144584/

to the first one. Clicking on the right arrow moves to your second shot.

Other than using only four screws instead of the typical six that Lotus, Chamonix and Ebony put in, and perhaps thinner garolite, it's not clear how your walnut holders can be so much lighter. :)


...As far as the camera goes I did make one but it isn't any lighter than the ones out there. And now that I made it I have been hacking it up to make some changes...Is this the camera?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/20127080@N00/8540492402/

Whatever changes you're making, I hope the resulting camera weight is as light compared to the others out there as your holders are.

Thanks for the pictures and answers.

[chris_4622]

Is this the camera?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/20127080@N00/8540492402/


Whatever changes you're making, I hope the resulting camera weight is as light compared to the others out there as your holders are.

Thanks for the pictures and answers.

Your welcome.
No that camera is the 5x7 I made in 2006. It's taken quite a beating over the years. The new WP isn't so elaborate.
The walnut is from very old stock I had on hand. I know sometimes there can be a difference in the density of different pieces of the same species but I don't know if it would account for this much difference.

[WayneStevenson]

Chris, could you share plans for those of us who want to give making our own a try?

[Roger Thoms]

Chris, could you share plans for those of us who want to give making our own a try?

Here's a good write up on building film holder by Colin Graham.

http://colinflanarygraham.com/darkshop/?p=1620

Roger

[WayneStevenson]

Thanks. :)

[Colin Graham]

I gotta say I really like the film gate detail on Chris's version a lot better. I don't have any light leaks on mine (yet), but that extra rabbet at the end of the loading flap would sure provide more peace of mind. Really first-rate work Chris.

[chris_4622]

Thanks Colin but I copied the design from one of my 5x7 Kodak holders. Those old-timers sure figured things out. The other thing they did well was the light trap. After taking one apart I thought I would do it the same way but the difficulty was just too much. They had the brass, finger cut, and the whole thing was wrapped with velvet and the two ends were then sandwiched in some heavier steel and pressed closed. I ended up following your method, it was much easier and faster. I used .005 brass.

Your blog was very helpful especially in the cutting order. The only thing I did out of order was cutting the haunches in the film gate rail before I cut the reveal on the film gate end of the stiles. The result was the haunch was cut too long.

The other thing is I must be losing my mind because I thought I made enough film gate flaps and today when putting the tape on I discovered I am short 12 pieces. The thought of having to set up again for those parts... I'll probably wait, I have enough holders to get started.

[chris_4622]

Okay, I just weighed a few finished holders, they are 11.2 - 11.4 oz. each. Sorry for the earlier number, it didn't include the dark slides, film gate flaps and light trap caps. I'm surprised how much extra they added.

[koh303]

Okay, I just weighed a few finished holders, they are 11.2 - 11.4 oz. each. Sorry for the earlier number, it didn't include the dark slides, film gate flaps and light trap caps. I'm surprised how much extra they added.

Chris - this is incredible work! These holders look top notch (pun intended :)!

[Sal Santamaura]

Okay, I just weighed a few finished holders, they are 11.2 - 11.4 oz. each. Sorry for the earlier number, it didn't include the dark slides, film gate flaps and light trap caps. I'm surprised how much extra they added.Thanks Chris. I'm still impressed -- that's 2 oz. lighter than Lotus. Your slides are 0.031" thick; my Lotus' slides are 0.057" inch thick. Lotus' septum appears to be the same thickness as the slides. Those differences plus your four fewer screws could account for the weight differential.