New Norma user intro

[Sibben]

I'm new here and new to LF photography in general so hi everyone. Just got an old Sinar Norma and assembled it. It's a beautiful piece of engineering. Does anyone know if it's possible to date these things somehow. I'd love to know when it was made.

[Robert H]

Have been a Norma user for many years. If you look under the horizontal part of the standards you should see a two digit number stamped in off to one side. This would be the year of manufacture. 60 as in 1960 for example.

[Robert H]

Beautiful piece of engineering indeed ! 109538

[Keith Pitman]

My Norma is stamped 63 on one standard and 64 on the other. Is it a Frankenstein?

[Robert H]

The term "Frankenstein" seems a bit harsh but unless your equipment was made very close to the end of December or during the first days of the following year, the standards were obviously produced at different times.
This however is not at all uncommon with a system camera like this and it would not bother me personally.
One detail I do look for on the early Sinars is the material used for the central gearing as the earlier cameras used steel whereas the later versions used nylon which did not require regular lubrication.
The steel models can be easlily recognized by the presence of small screws holding the different number and name plates at the base of the standard. These were cemented in place on the nylon track models.
A second detail I look for is the presence of the locking system on the focusing mechanisms. Again these were always present on the earlier models but dissappeared on the later ones, at some point after the change to nylon central drives.




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[gorsescent]

Hello, Mr. Pitman. The name "Frankenstein" stands for the young scientist who created the half-robot, half-human monster.

Mr. Frankenstein was actually a handsome man as seen in these 2 drawings.

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[Jerry Bodine]

My Norma is stamped 63 on one standard and 64 on the other. Is it a Frankenstein?

Not a problem, just use it, it's fine. I have a 4x5, a 5x7 and an 8x10 - all bought new. I've interchanged the standards on different monorails many times and have no reason to match up the dates on any paired standards. They vary from '64 to '70 and all with apparently the same design details.

[jonreid]

Mine is obviously a later model as it doesn't have locking knobs on the fine focus. Wish it did though.

[Robert H]

There is another member here with some experience who believes the non locking models were in fact earlier. This on the regular production Norma models and not the 1947 prototype. My four cameras were produced between 1960 and 1965 and all eight standards do have the locking mechanism, from 4x5 through 8x10. Just out of curiosity, would you mind checking for that two digit date number stamped on the underside of your horizontal rails for me to help me establish the truth on this detail? Would appreciate it.

[Sibben]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Both my stands are stamped M63. They have both nylon inserts on the rail gear and locking levers on the focus knobs. So it's built in 1963 in between transitions I suppose? It looks exactly like the images above.

[Robert H]

Thanks Sibben. And I will venture to guess your scale / vernier plates do not have mounting screws, correct ?

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[Sibben]

No. They're glued like the top image above.

[Jerry Bodine]

...They vary from '64 to '70 and all with apparently the same design details.

Need to correct this slightly.
8x10: Both standards have nylon, but no locks. Rear is '69, front is '70.
5x7: Both standards have nylon, WITH locks. Rear is '64, front is '65.
4x5: Uses 5x7 standards, with the 4x5 format change on the rear standard.

[Robert H]

Thanks Jerry.
This is useful informarion.
I suspect they went lockless in '66 or '67.
My "newest" camera, an 8x10, was made in '65 and has locks, a steel fucussing track, etc.

[Leonard Robertson]

My 4X5 Norma is stamped M65 on the front standard and 65, without the M, on the rear standard. Both standards have glued on scales and locks on the focusing knobs. I have another standard I bought off eBay which is stamped M69, with an additional number 41 stamped off to one side of the M69. It has glued on scales and no focus lock. All three have nylon focusing racks.

And on that subject, does anyone have a source of Norma small parts, especially nylon focusing racks? Either US or Europe? I spent a bit of time online searching industrial supply sources for racks, but that seemed like looking for a needle in a haystack. Yes there are many suppliers who catalog rack and pinions, but finding a helical rack in nylon in that small size (I assume metric also) was beyond my skills. I also need one of the strange coarse thread nuts for the rail clamp lock, but that is easier to make on the lathe than a helical rack.

Len

[Steven Tribe]

I have never noticed these numbers!
I can find M63 on my 8x10 front standard, but can't find it on the massive aluminium casting of the rear standard?

[Robert H]

I noticed the number was in a different location on my 8X10 also but never the less, under the lower horrizontal standard. Keep looking. Must be there somewhere.

[Robert H]

Some of my standards have the "M" prefix, others do not.

[Robert H]

Try dealing directly with the factory Leonard. Their email address is: contact@sinar.ch

[DennisD]

There is another member here with some experience who believes the non locking models were in fact earlier.

I can say with certainty that the locking knobs preceded the non locking version. Thus was considered an improvement by Sinar in that the knobs were "self braking" and allowed more convenient operation.

I purchased my Norma (new) around 1971 from Foto-care NYC when it was basically a one man show owned by Norbert Kleber. I asked Norbert about this at the time and the above was his explanation.

[Leonard Robertson]

Robert - Thank you for the Sinar Europe email address. I emailed Sinar US a couple of years ago and never received a reply. although my ISP has a rigorous spam filter and I'm sure I don't always get all emails sent to me.

Another Norma question - Mine came with what I assume is a later model main rail; extension rails can be added to either end and the end pieces are black plastic. I've seen pictures of rails with NORMA stamped into the top square bar, and I've read those can only be extended from one end. Did all Norma cameras until the end of production use this NORMA stamped rail, or did later Normas use a double-ended version?

Len

[Robert H]

You're welcome Len. The Swiss office and my connection in Belgium (Hotz) have been very helpful for me. Hope your experience is the same. Virtually anything can be found for these old cameras and Sinar will even tool up to make obsolete parts (although at a price !). Planned obsolescence just isn't a part of their philosophy.
Regarding the rails with the Norma name engraved / stamped in, I'm afraid I'm not clear as to how long they were produced. Perhaps someone else here has more information.
I do know that the very early rails were of a unique and very interesting design. Have a look at the attached images as I happen to be lucky enough to own three examples. The quality was very impressive and the results quite handsome in my opinion. !

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[Robert H]

Additional images / early Norma rail

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[Sibben]

That's one beautiful rail.

[David Lindquist]

I purchased my 4 X 5 Sinar Norma "new" in Spring 1966. Both standards are marked M 64. Focussing racks are nylon, focussing knobs have locks, scales are glued on.

David

[Robert H]

Thanks David. That pretty much seems to fit into what we are assuming although I'm starting to wonder exactly when Sinar decided to go to nylon. My '65 8x10 rear standard still retains the steel track although this may have to do with the weight of the unit and the increased level of work it was expected to perform. That camera currently has a steel rail front standard manufactured in '61. Locks and screwed plates on both.

[Drew Wiley]

They never used ordinary "nylon", which wears out quickly. Certainly the focus mechanism on later camera series seems to be something like delrin, and it holds up wonderfully. With the F standards, if any slop developed from wear, thin shims could be added below the gear mesh to take up the slack. A brilliant design. With the Norma, the tune-up process is a set of simple screw adjustments.

[Robert H]

Yes. Delrin was a possibitity. That or Celcon, Duracon or Hostform. In any case a synthetic polymer and not steel. Do occasionally hear of these materials failing on these cameras and also on the later P's and P2's. Have yet to hear of a problem with the early steel track Normas however.

[Drew Wiley]

My Norma has something resembling delrin (but actually, a little harder) comprising the sliding clamshells on the shoe of the standards, internally, which fit around the rails. But the gearing per se is machined diecast alum alloy. I actually prefer the smoothness of delrin for gearing, and during several decades of very rough outdoor use of my F-series cameras, never found it to be unreliable, and never wore it out. The metal geartrack of the Norma is exceptionally well-made, so very smooth too; but on many metal field cameras, metal gearings isn't all that smooth. And delrin is actually more durable than brass in most instances, unless it's a machinable diecast alloy more closely related to bronze. But this is all getting academic to me, cause my last Norma purchase is probably the last monorail I'll ever buy. It should last me the rest of my life, and still be fully functional to yet another generation.

[Leonard Robertson]

Drew - You have a good point on the type of material Sinar used for the racks. I think many of us use the term "nylon" as sort of a generic term for higher grade plastic used in applications like this. I recall "Home Shop Machinist" magazine a few years ago ran an article on machinable plastics, but I don't know if it is available online. The plastic rack on the rear standard of my Norma has a stripped section about midpoint in the length. If the focus is helped across this point the rest of the rack works wonderfully, so the pinion gear is probably good. I bought the camera this way, so I have no idea what sort of abuse caused the problem. As far as I'm concerned this is in no way a "weak point" in Sinars. Some people can ruin anything, no matter how well made. I've considered grinding a fly-cutter bit and making a replacement rack on the milling machine, but I'm hopelessly slow as a machinist. Buying a replacement piece makes a lot more sense.

Robert - Thank you for posting the pictures of the early Norma rail cap. I've seen pictures of this type of cap but couldn't quite make out how the cap works. Now I understand. I did a Google Images search for Sinar Norma and saw a couple of other style rail caps. One looks like the newer plastic end cap but made of aluminum. Another looks to be aluminum with knurling for the grip surface rather than the scallops of the newer style cap. However these may not be Sinar factory made caps, they could have been machinist made.

Len

[Drew Wiley]

Nylon is of course a category, not one specific material. But in the trades (esp the kind of equip distribution I'm involved with), the simple term "nylon" has junk
connotations because it wears out so quickly. A simple perusal of a list of available machinable nylons in something like a McMaster listing shows what a range of
types is actually available, and some of them are darn tough. I don't know what was available in Switzerland way back when. The slides on my Norma has yellowed
a tad, but don't seem brittle after all these decades. Not delrin, but somebody sure knew what they were doing. In the later Sinars, the gearing was apparently
delrin, and unless sand got trapped in it, it held up well. I've worn out several f-style standards and the focus track was still serviceable.

[Robert H]

Possibly because I've adjusted all my (8) Norma standards for smoothness and lack of play, they are now smoother than those on my "P" which of course has the shall we say synthetic polymer gearing !

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[Drew Wiley]

My favorite type of focus gearing is helical-cut on diecast alloy, like one finds on Horseman and Linhof technical cameras. For straight-cut I generally prefer delrin to
metal. But the Norma is an exception. I'm a little less impressed with the clamshell slides and locks for rough length adjustment. It seems the F and P were improved
in that category. I have to be very conscious that the L-shaped lever locks on the Norma are fully tightened. A slight twist just won't do it, even though they're
in excellent condition and recently CLA'd. Too bad there was never a machined titanium version of the Norma made. Maybe some govt dept would have ordered it
up and paid the equivalent of $75,000 dollars for one, and then it would turn up in an unmarked crate in an army surplus store for fifteen bucks. I once acquired a
yaw-free solid machined bronze micrometer-drive focus mount that way, far more precise than any commercial tripod head, for exactly free.

[Robert H]

In my experience the classic gearing combination is of course alternating bronze (and sometimes brass) and steel. This combination has proven itself in the world of horology and is for example why an old "M" series Leica can feel so deliciously smooth while also enjoying an extremely long service life.

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[Drew Wiley]

I once had a handbook lying around here which gave specifications on over two hundred different bronze and brass alloys. There's a world of difference between
machining a good dense diecasting and hardware made from simple cast brass, which has often been used on cheap "knockoff" folding view camera and wears down
relatively quickly. Only things in the silicon-bronze family really come up to the quality of stainless steel or its lightwt functional equivalent, titanium. Likewise, there's
a reason why cameras made from diecast alum alloys like a Technika cost way more than ones using CNC-machined anodized components. Dies are themselves damn
expensive to make.