G-Claron casket set

[jackpie]

I've collected a number of G-Claron lenses and it's been suggested to me that the elements could be interchanged and used as a casket set. So using the 210, 240 and 305s that fit into a copal 1 what focal lengths could be made? what adjustments to the aperture scales would be necessary for correct exposure? and would there be compromises in the lens performance?

[Andrew]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?63200-A-discovery-Dagor-type-G-Claron-s-as-the-ultimate-Casket-Set

as much as I know...

[Dan Fromm]

If, and this is a big if, dagor type G-Clarons follow the f/6.8 Boyer Beryl pattern, half of a 210/9 will be a 360/18; 240, 410; 305, 522. Combining unlike cells won't buy you much, 210 + 240 = something in between, and so on.

[Kirk Fry]

So what happens if you just use half a G-Claron? Anyone try that? Then you get a whole bunch of interesting focal lengths. (710 mm etc.)

[Dan Fromm]

Kirk, I just put the question to a 210/6.8 Beryl and a 210/9 dagor type G-Claron. I measured with very low precision and accuracy. They're about the same. A single cell's focal length is around 1.7x the complete lens' focal length.

By the way, plasmat type lenses are convertible too. Well, not that many, according to their makers, but single cells will form an image. A single cell's f/# is usually twice the complete lens', its focal length is around 1.7x (convertible Symmars, 1.75x) the complete lens'.

Don't be pikers, if you're going to play silly lens games with dagor types, play them with plasmat types too.

[Jim Galli]

I have one by accident. Years ago a seller on ebay very apologetically offered a 210 rear and 240 front old style dagor type for cheap and knowing that Schneider had done that same thing years ago with the original dagor type Symmar's I thought, why not? It's a killer performer. 225mm. Covers 8X10 very nicely, and seems perhaps sharper than the others (probably just my over-active imagination). I saw no need to experiment further. A 270 and a 210 would make a 240 with smaller than standard full aperture. I've already got a 240. Who needs that. I suppose a 270 front and 240 back would make a viable 255, but ??? Not worth the trouble. the jumps are too small to bother with.

Whatever you do, put the larger light in front, smaller one in back.

[Tin Can]

Missed this

More to test!

Thank you



Kirk, I just put the question to a 210/6.8 Beryl and a 210/9 dagor type G-Claron. I measured with very low precision and accuracy. They're about the same. A single cell's focal length is around 1.7x the complete lens' focal length.

By the way, plasmat type lenses are convertible too. Well, not that many, according to their makers, but single cells will form an image. A single cell's f/# is usually twice the complete lens', its focal length is around 1.7x (convertible Symmars, 1.75x) the complete lens'.

Don't be pikers, if you're going to play silly lens games with dagor types, play them with plasmat types too.

[lassethomas]

So what happens if you just use half a G-Claron? Anyone try that? Then you get a whole bunch of interesting focal lengths. (710 mm etc.)

Well I did try

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?159217-4x5-lenses-telephoto-and-portraiture&p=1561918&viewfull=1#post1561918

[domaz]

Also relevant I've unwittingly tried combining two focal lengths of a plasmat lens of the same type. I believe it was a 150mm up front and 100mm rear element- the result looked like a 100mm to me.

[arri]

A few years ago I made a complete table of all possible lens combinations of the G-Claron lenses. 27 different lenses are possible and yes I realised a complete casket set of all focus length.
The most usefull for me is the combination of the cells of the 210mm and 150mm, in combination it is a 180mm lens with f/10.8 A perfect wide angle lens for 8x10" with around 350mm immage circle. Enough for me when using it for landscape.

It starts above on the left side, here a 360mm (355mm) in a shutter size 3. The table shows the aperture numbers of this lens.
Right of it you find the 300mm (305mm) mounted in shutter size 3. The correct aperture numbers are mentioned.

Example: 360mm f/22 is f/18.3 for the 300mm; f/16.5 for the 270mm; 14.7 for the 240mm; f/12.8 for the 210mm and f/9.2 for the 150mm

All aperture values are the ones from a shutter size 3 with 360mm. The other values are calculated.

I hope it is understandable

241199

[Tin Can]

Arri

Great effort, but I cannot read it

Perhaps my poor vision...

[John Layton]

My G-Claron lenses are alive and well...thank you! :rolleyes:

[Dan Fromm]

Arri, if I understand your table correctly, it is for all combinations of cells. If so -- sorry, but it is hard to read -- not all combinations are possible. According to the 1982 G-Claron brochure, the 150 fits a #0 shutter. 210, 240, 270 and 305 all fit #1. And 355 fits #3. There's no shutter that will take a 150 cell on one side and a cell from any of the others on the other. Same goes for the 355 and all the others.

[arri]

Arri, if I understand your table correctly, it is for all combinations of cells. If so -- sorry, but it is hard to read -- not all combinations are possible. According to the 1982 G-Claron brochure, the 150 fits a #0 shutter. 210, 240, 270 and 305 all fit #1. And 355 fits #3. There's no shutter that will take a 150 cell on one side and a cell from any of the others on the other. Same goes for the 355 and all the others.

That´s correct Dan but I made adapter rings to fit all lens cells from the 150mm - 305mm to the Compur/Copal 3 shutter. That´s why I´am using the f-stop numbers of this lens for all others as well and calculated the actual f-values for it.

The Wisner Plasmat set used the G-Claron lens cells in the same way. He also turned adapter rings to fid the different lens cells into one shutter. size This is not a witchcraft, only handcrafting.

[John Layton]

Hey, didn't Ron Wisner recommend the use of a yellow filter with all but the (two or three?) "foundation" focal length combos of his casket set? Something about this providing a measurable/visible amount of improvement to evenness of apparent sharpness over the field?

[arri]

You will need the yellow filter when you use a single element and not a combination of two cells.

[Dan Fromm]

That´s correct Dan but I made adapter rings to fit all lens cells from the 150mm - 305mm to the Compur/Copal 3 shutter. That´s why I´am using the f-stop numbers of this lens for all others as well and calculated the actual f-values for it.

The Wisner Plasmat set used the G-Claron lens cells in the same way. He also turned adapter rings to fid the different lens cells into one shutter. size This is not a witchcraft, only handcrafting.

Thanks for the explanation. What you did is cute. You must have really wanted a G-Claron casket set.

Question about the need for a yellow filter. This makes me think that single G-Claron cells have serious chromatic aberration. This isn't a gigantic surprise, since the lenses are symmetrical and symmetry eliminates CA. On the other hand, many other lens makers have offered casket sets and their propaganda says nothing about CA or filters. And some, for example Berthiot, sold single cells with the claim that they were useful as sold for general photography. This before and after color emulsions were generally available. The same cells were part of their casket sets and combined lenses, with equal or unequal cells. So, in your experience, how severe is CA with single G-Claron cells and with unequal pairs of G-Claron cells?

[jnantz]

Hey, didn't Ron Wisner recommend the use of a yellow filter with all but the (two or three?) "foundation" focal length combos of his casket set? Something about this providing a measurable/visible amount of improvement to evenness of apparent sharpness over the field?

Hi John,
I think Ron suggested using the yellow filter because of focus shift too, maybe I am thinking of something else IDK it's been a long long time .. when I drove to Marion Mass to say hello IDK 10-15 years ago, and he was already vanished sailing the Atlantic in his boat :)

[Oren Grad]

Recall that Wisner also offered a "Zero Power Corrector" with his Convertible Plasmat set. Here's some promotional text from a web page that I downloaded long ago from the site of his then European distributor, John D Photography:
_____

Enter the Wisner Zero Power Corrector.

In this day and age of color film, the use of a color filter to sharpen a single cell may not be an option. It occurred to Mr Wisner that it should be a simple matter to design a cell of null power to place in front of the shutter, never the less with sufficient aberrations to cancel those of a single cell placed behind the shutter.

The idea came from Dr. Rudolph of the Zeiss company, whose original non convertible Protar had all its positive power and correction for astigmatism in the rear group of the lens. The new Wisner Corrector may be used with any of the single cells in the Plasmat system and will render the single cells usable with color. The Corrector renders in single cells diffraction limited at about f:22 with the shorter single cells and f:32 with the longer ones. The corrector completely removes all lateral chromatic aberration. In addition the field is increased from 25 degrees to over 60 degrees because of improved anastigmatic correction.

If you are shooting black and white and prefer the more traditional approach and would like to continue using a yellow filter, your results will still be excellent.

[Mark Sampson]

One wonders how many of those Wisner casket sets were actually made and sold. I think I've seen one for sale (here?) in the last twenty years or so.
Not exactly relevant to the OP's question, though, moderators delete if inappropriate.

[Greg]

Some info from 1998? Wisner catalog:

4x5 set: five cells: 250, 250, 350, 400, 450 #1 Copal $3,239.50
5x7 set: five cells: 250, 350, 400, 450, 500 #1 Copal $3,637.70
8x10 set: four cells: 350, 400, 500, 600 #3 Copal $4,107.40
Master set: six cells: 250, 350, 400, 450, 500, 600 #3 shutter $4,810.30
yellow filter for 4x5 & 5x7 set $65.00
for 8x10 & Master $85.00
Corrector fits all sets $85.00
Have heard of only one or maybe 2 sets actually being out there after all these years

I find more interesting: 140 degree Wisner Hypergon 84mm f/22-45, Lens in rotary sector-shutter with B and T settings, "waterhouse" stops: $2495.00 Center filter $382.00
Never heard of anyone ever actually having one of these.

[David Lindquist]

Some info from 1998? Wisner catalog:

4x5 set: five cells: 250, 250, 350, 400, 450 #1 Copal $3,239.50
5x7 set: five cells: 250, 350, 400, 450, 500 #1 Copal $3,637.70
8x10 set: four cells: 350, 400, 500, 600 #3 Copal $4,107.40
Master set: six cells: 250, 350, 400, 450, 500, 600 #3 shutter $4,810.30
yellow filter for 4x5 & 5x7 set $65.00
for 8x10 & Master $85.00
Corrector fits all sets $85.00
Have heard of only one or maybe 2 sets actually being out there after all these years

I find more interesting: 140 degree Wisner Hypergon 84mm f/22-45, Lens in rotary sector-shutter with B and T settings, "waterhouse" stops: $2495.00 Center filter $382.00
Never heard of anyone ever actually having one of these.

Thank you for this, I've not been able to locate my Wisner catalog. It's my understanding that the No. 1 Copal shutters used here were modified so as to have the same size mounting thread both front and back. Well they'd have to have been for the system to be workable.

The "Zero Power Corrector" may be even rarer. I remember years ago, I think on the rec.photography newsgroups, there was an individual who would periodically complain about having ordered the "Zero Power Corrector" but had yet to receive it.

David

[reddesert]

There's a review of the Wisner plasmat set by Jean-David Beyer on the LFphoto main page, dated Oct 1997: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/plasmats.html
I think he used to post to the rec.photo. large format Usenet newsgroup. He ordered the zero power corrector but as of that writing hadn't received it.

There's also a Wisner catalog here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/wisner-expedition-technical/WisnerCatalog300dpiMonoChrome.pdf
Note, the transcription above has a typo. The Zero Power Corrector was actually $650. I would guess that few were ordered and (IMO) it was probably never shipped. Wisner's copy text says that "It occurred to us it should be a simple matter to design a cell of null power ... with sufficient corrections" etc - I don't know if it really is that simple.

[David Lindquist]

There's a review of the Wisner plasmat set by Jean-David Beyer on the LFphoto main page, dated Oct 1997: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/plasmats.html
I think he used to post to the rec.photo. large format Usenet newsgroup. He ordered the zero power corrector but as of that writing hadn't received it.

There's also a Wisner catalog here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/wisner-expedition-technical/WisnerCatalog300dpiMonoChrome.pdf
Note, the transcription above has a typo. The Zero Power Corrector was actually $650. I would guess that few were ordered and (IMO) it was probably never shipped. Wisner's copy text says that "It occurred to us it should be a simple matter to design a cell of null power ... with sufficient corrections" etc - I don't know if it really is that simple.

Thank you very much for this. I remember the name Jean-David Beyer from the old rec.photo large format days. I'm sure he's the one I remember complaining about never getting his corrector plate (well as sure as I am of any memory anymore.)

Looking at the catalog you cited, I see Wisner credits Zeiss with the Hypergon. I think it was in fact C.P. Goerz Berlin who originated it.

David