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catalinajack
24-Jan-2014, 00:28
A recent posting in the "for sale" section stated that the shutter sounded accurate at all speeds. Sounded? Really? Since when is the human ear able to discern the accuracy of shutter speeds as fast as 1/500 of a second. Of course, it's impossible, at any speed. Over the course of several years I have personally tested about 15 shutters (Graflex, Supermatic, serrated-ring Copals, more modern black-rings Copals). Additionally, I have had about 10 shutters professionally CLA'd (Flutot's and Grimes). Not a single one tested to factory specs, especially at the higher speeds. My experience is, and that includes modern Copals, that the best one can hope for is about 1/350 at the high end and that the 1/250 speed is unlikely to be more than about 1/200. Most LF photographers I believe don't use the higher speeds anyway so this may be of little relative importance in the end but I do wish sellers would refrain making such representations as newbies may not be as aware of the pitfalls of purchasing used shutters.

Perhaps others here have had a different experience. Comments?

Daniel Stone
24-Jan-2014, 00:50
That's why I bought a shutter speed tester. That way (I) know *exactly* what I'm working with on each shutter(I test bi-monthly, or before a trip), and write down timings on a small notecard for each lens.

If I re-sell any more equipment down the line, I'll test the shutter's speeds and post the speeds(generally an average of 3 individual simultaneous actuations in a row), as well as include a card with the lens for the new owner.

$100 for a tester is much better than lost shots due to inaccurate calculations before venturing out. I'd rather have empirical data to go on with mechanical items, like shutters, which can lose/change time...

just my $.02

-Dan

Doremus Scudder
24-Jan-2014, 02:48
I don't know about you, but I can sure hear if the shutter speeds are off by a great deal, e.g., if the slow speeds are really too long, or if the intermediate speeds are way to fast (indicating a shutter defect).

Hearing that there are no major issues with shutter speeds just means that, yes, the speeds might be off a bit and the shutter might even need a CLA, but nothing is majorly wrong with the shutter and it is likely serviceable as-is for less-demanding applications.

How often do you test your shutters anyway? I might get the shutter tester out once a year and see how all my shutters are doing. If they don't seem to be in need of servicing, I'll note the actual speeds on the lensboard and use them, but usually they aren't more than a fraction of a stop from marked with the exception of the very fastest speeds, which are inaccurate by design limitation.

So, I think it's perfectly valid to say a shutter "sounds accurate" as long as we don't expect more than a rough assessment from those words.

Best,

Doremus

goamules
24-Jan-2014, 05:49
If you tested all these shutters and they're off, and had other ones CLA'd and they're off still that tells me one thing. It doesn't matter if they're off. Hundreds (used to be thousands) of photographers are shooting fine photos with shutters that are always substantially out of spec. I wouldn't even try to test the repeatably or accuracy of a Packard shutter or my lenscap method where I count seconds in my head. Film must not notice (especially black and white that has a 4-6 stop range). I guess shutters sounding accurate is good enough.

goamules
24-Jan-2014, 05:53
You'd be surprised how accurate human senses are. I can hear a shutter is working more or less fine for government work, up to 1/25th or so. I can watch the light coming through, actuating the shutter held up to a window and corroborate that, and check the faster speeds pretty well too. I don't care if 1/500 is really 1/400 or even 1/300. I don't notice and my pictures don't notice.

Bob Salomon
24-Jan-2014, 06:05
A shutter is in spec at 30% of the marked speed.

biedron
24-Jan-2014, 06:53
The phrase "shutter speeds sounds accurate" is also one of my pet peeves. When I have sold lenses I usually say something to the effect that exposures I have made with the lens using the marked speeds have been properly exposed.

I have also bought used lenses described as "sounding accurate" and have had no issues based on the "properly exposed with the marked speed" criterion. But there's wiggle room here too, since exactly what is "properly exposed"? :) If the shutter was off by 1/3 stop, you'd probably not notice in most exposures. And even if you did, could you be sure your metering of the scene was "correct" to 1/3 stop? Maybe in the studio, but out in the field that seems doubtful. And in the field I'm not sure I've ever used faster than 1/8 second, so if faster speeds were off I'd never notice or care.

Bob

mdarnton
24-Jan-2014, 07:49
Given that no lens will be 100% on, I find the "shutter speed sounds accurate" does indeed have a place in the sliding scale of descriptions of accuracy. I'd certainly have that rather than nothing at all.

Jody_S
24-Jan-2014, 08:10
I have gone through about 1,000 shutters, mostly leaf but some cloth focal-plane, in the last 5 years or so. I do not own a shutter speed tester. I test by ear and by sight (looking through the lens&shutter). I can most certainly tell if a shutter is 'off' enough to affect photos, in all but the most demanding of settings (if you're shooting chromes across lenses and expect to match highlights perfectly, you'd better do your own testing first).

If, as the op says, most leaf shutters do not reach their top speeds, and as far as I know this is true of even new shutters, then this is the norm, and not the fault of the seller of used lenses. And from what I know about shutters, there is no way to make that shutter perform at nominal speed. If you count the proportion of light blocked by the shutter blades as they open and close, and you're measuring the light through the center of the lens, then 1/350 might even out to 1/500 anyway, if you're shooting at full aperture (and you most likely are, if you're using 1/500).

When I say the speeds 'sound' right, what I really mean is that 1s is pretty close to 1s, and the remaining speeds are proportional. That is, 1/2s is 1/2 the length of 1s, and 1/125s is half the length of 1/60, etc. Tested by sound on the low end, visually on the high. Still better to test in real-life situation with film, though. I may make a rig some day to test with a dSLR on Bulb, shooting through vintage shutters.

DrTang
24-Jan-2014, 08:24
when I sell something and state the shutter 'sounds' okay

I'm saying the speeds sound as they are all all different - and they are working - slow speeds sound slow, fast speeds sound fast

meaning ..no.. I haven't had it CLA - and that's why I'm offering it for 80 bucks less than I would had I sent it away


it means YOU should have it CLA if you are a stickler and it will most likely adjust up pretty nice

BrianShaw
24-Jan-2014, 08:39
Funny that you should mention that CatJack... I wince, too, when I see that. I suppose what that means is that the shutter snaps at all speeds, and it appears that each speed sounds somewhat faster than the previous speed. For me that is good enough of a description... if that is what the seller really means (Like DocTang just said). I basically assume that any old used shutter can benefit from a professional servicing. But often I have been pleased when shutters that "sound right" perform adequately in producing reasonably exposed negs.

My sound test is at 1 and 1/2 sec. Those are somewhat hear-able. The rest get sound tested but are more often light tested (release shutter with a lamp behind it) to see that there is a visible progression of shutter speeds.

p.s. I have never had a single shutter, in the past 35 years, "measured" for accuracy. Not necessary since the neg says enough. Which is funny, because for other things I'm a stickler for scientific levels of both precision and accuracy. And I have rarely lost any images due to inaccurate shutters.

What I find even funnier is that it is often folks who do not have a science/engineering background who are way more stringent about testing, exercising shutters, storing with springs released, and not using skylight filters on smaller format lenses than those who do have engineering/science backgrounds. Go figure.

mdarnton
24-Jan-2014, 09:23
I would guess that most engineering types operate on a basis of reality, not theory.

Corran
24-Jan-2014, 09:31
Being a trained musician and easily playing/hearing 32nd notes at a tempo of 120BPM (1/15th of a second), and then extrapolating for faster speeds, I most certainly can hear when a shutter is or isn't in spec for most common speeds. The fastest shutter speeds on any shutter are 1/3 or 1/2 a stop slow, that just should be common knowledge.

BetterSense
24-Jan-2014, 09:41
The phrase "shutter speeds sounds accurate" is also one of my pet peeves. When I have sold lenses I usually say something to the effect that exposures I have made with the lens using the marked speeds have been properly exposed

How did you measure the exposures, and how did you define a "correct" exposure? I think your methods are less meaningful than "sounds correct".

Leaf shutters do not open and close instantly so 1/300s may indeed be 1 stop less exposure than say 1/200. It's the nature of leaf shutters. Leaf shutter speed scales can be based on open time, or on exposure amount, but not both. The supposedly "slow" top speeds of leaf shutters can't be considered "incorrect" in an absolute way, they could actually be considered "more correct" than a shutter with "correct" open time but probably unexpectedly low exposure.

BrianShaw
24-Jan-2014, 09:42
I would guess that most engineering types operate on a basis of reality, not theory.

If "reality" means based on measurements, I would agree with that as a great assumption. (I am an engineer/scientist, BTW.) But the flip side is that engineer/scientists also operate on the reality that margin exists in multiple parts of the process that averages out error. In some situations the error may be additive to an extreme, but in general it all averages.

EDIT: I work with both kinds of scientist/engineers.

Alan Gales
24-Jan-2014, 09:56
When I first starting selling lenses on Ebay, I purchased a Calumet shutter speed tester. I listed the actual tested shutter speeds in my auctions and found my lenses were selling below market value. It seems if the shutter is accurate on the slow speeds but tested a little slow on a couple of the fast speeds then few people want it.

Now I list that my shutters are snappy and progressively slower as you go down the speeds but they have not been professionally tested. If a shutter is in need of a CLA I do clearly mention it in the listing.

Now I get top dollar. Go figure!

Kevin Crisp
24-Jan-2014, 10:00
I don't have any difficulty detecting a shutter than is significantly too long in the 1 second through 1/10th range. Above that I'd be guessing. But since I have a tester I usually indicate what actual speeds are.

biedron
24-Jan-2014, 10:32
How did you measure the exposures, and how did you define a "correct" exposure? I think your methods are less meaningful than "sounds correct".


You quoted only part of my response. I go on to question what is "correct exposure". But for me, the exposure is the essential thing. Shutter sound is irrelevant. Well, as long as it makes a sound and is not all gummed up :)

Bob

Leigh
24-Jan-2014, 13:57
A shutter is in spec at 30% of the marked speed.
True. And that's because shutter speeds really don't matter that much.

At a 50% error you're only off by a half stop. Very few films would care about that at all.

You can certainly compare two shutters by ear. If they both sound the same, chances are they're OK.

- Leigh

StoneNYC
24-Jan-2014, 14:12
Being that many lenses in the LF arena are over 100 years old, how accurate are you really expecting them to be? I think it's pretty easy to tell of a shutter sounds off, but perhaps like that other musical person, I have an advantage as I was classically trained as a vocalist by a famous NY choir director as a kid and some of those listening skills carried over?

Either way I don't see a problem with that saying, I know the 150mm I have "sounds off" at 1s and 1/2 and 1/4 so I make sure to trip the shutter a bunch before firing off at those speeds. The rest of the lenses I own "sound" just fine, and none of my exposures seem to be off at all... so I guess that's good enough...

Taija71A
24-Jan-2014, 14:45
... But I do wish sellers would refrain from making such representations...

____

Hmmmm...

I guess...
That saying absolutely 'Nothing' about the respective Shutter Speeds on a Lens that you have listed FS -- Is somehow perhaps being even 'More informative' ???


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?109227-FS-Schneider-APO-Symmar-S-210mm-f5-6


Best regards,

-Tim.
_________

Luis-F-S
24-Jan-2014, 15:10
modern Copals, that the best one can hope for is about 1/350 at the high end and that the 1/250 speed is unlikely to be more than about 1/200.?

That's pretty optimistic! I seldom use anything much above a 1/30 sect in LF.

L

Jim Noel
24-Jan-2014, 15:35
A shutter is in spec at 30% of the marked speed.

This is a very important point which few people realize. If I were selling lenses my statement would probably be "Speeds are within factory specifications."
My repairman who is no longer with us used to ask what speed I wanted the most accurate. He always made sure to abide by my request. Kurt grew up and was trained in Deckel Germany.

Leigh
24-Jan-2014, 21:07
Shutter speed errors are the major reason people are told to do a system calibration if they want really accurate exposures.

The "personal ASA rating" for film is in fact a correction for shutter speed errors.

No other component of the exposure process has an error nearly as large as shutter speed.

- Leigh

toolbox
28-Jan-2014, 23:06
I've tested...I don't know, probably at least a few dozen leaf shutters with my shutter speed tester. Top speeds even in a good working shutter are often pretty optimistic. A lot of the stuff from the 50s offering a top speed of 1/400th to 1/500 is often more like 1/250 at the top. Slow speeds are usually pretty accurate though, providing everything is working properly. For my own personal use, if it's less than a stop from what it's marked, that's good enough for me to say it's in spec. Interestingly, the old Graflex 1000 I used to have really did measure a true 1/1000th of a second top speed, despite what the interwebs might say. Of course, that was after I partially disassembled it and gave it a good cleaning. Speaking of Graflex, I've also found Speed Graphic focal plane shutters to be far more accurate than the leaf shutters they were using...properly adjusted, the FP shutter can be spot on (and really will give 1/1000 of a second top speed). Again, that's after a good clean/lube/adjust though. Don't expect that from the ones that haven't been lubed in 50 years and sound like a blender when you run them lol.

As far as sellers go, I'm tend to interpret "sounds right" as "it sounds faster at top speed and slower at slow speed." I'm sure there are guys here that really can judge it, but for the average joe selling his estate sale find I just figure that's what he means. I'm cheap/poor so I love buying my gear cheap and fixing it if necessary, so it doesn't really matter too much to me if a shutter is accurate or not when I'm shopping. YMMV of course :).

StoneNYC
29-Jan-2014, 01:06
I've tested...I don't know, probably at least a few dozen leaf shutters with my shutter speed tester. Top speeds even in a good working shutter are often pretty optimistic. A lot of the stuff from the 50s offering a top speed of 1/400th to 1/500 is often more like 1/250 at the top. Slow speeds are usually pretty accurate though, providing everything is working properly. For my own personal use, if it's less than a stop from what it's marked, that's good enough for me to say it's in spec. Interestingly, the old Graflex 1000 I used to have really did measure a true 1/1000th of a second top speed, despite what the interwebs might say. Of course, that was after I partially disassembled it and gave it a good cleaning. Speaking of Graflex, I've also found Speed Graphic focal plane shutters to be far more accurate than the leaf shutters they were using...properly adjusted, the FP shutter can be spot on (and really will give 1/1000 of a second top speed). Again, that's after a good clean/lube/adjust though. Don't expect that from the ones that haven't been lubed in 50 years and sound like a blender when you run them lol.

As far as sellers go, I'm tend to interpret "sounds right" as "it sounds faster at top speed and slower at slow speed." I'm sure there are guys here that really can judge it, but for the average joe selling his estate sale find I just figure that's what he means. I'm cheap/poor so I love buying my gear cheap and fixing it if necessary, so it doesn't really matter too much to me if a shutter is accurate or not when I'm shopping. YMMV of course :).

You love it so much, want to fix my 1s and 1/2s sting shutter for a roll of film? LOL

Jim Galli
29-Jan-2014, 07:53
As a matter of fact I use my ear very often for shutter speed. With a packard shutter installed inside my venerable 2D I take along an old Argus Cosina with Copal S1 square shutter so I can listen to the copal at 1/4 sec. several times and then suction the packard to the same 'time'. I get perfect exposures doing that.

But your argument would have me making disclaimers and caveats that any reader would quickly pile on the negative side of my disclosure and there would be no way to police that every poster do likewise. That seems to put me at a disadvantage that I don't even think your 'argument' justifies.

Dr Tang has it right. I'm selling some old Turner Reich in a Betax 4 shutter and I put the speed at 1/2 and it goes djjjjjjjjjjjjt. Then I put it at 1/5 and it goes djjjjjjt. At 1/10th it goes djjjt and at 1/25th it goes djt. It 'sounds' right to me. They all changed correspondingly to what I would expect. If you wish to take a holier than thou attitude and rail that I am somehow dishonest, go for it. And to further fuss about the highest speeds is just dopey. We all know those are just numbers put there by the dishonest shutter manufacturers so that copal could claim theirs was faster @ 500 than Rapax was at 400.

That's precisely why I tell folks who are going bonky trying to squeeze something into an Alphax 5 shutter so they can have 1/50th second exposure instead of the packard's steady freddy 1/25th that they're wasting a lot of machinists time and their money.

goamules
29-Jan-2014, 08:23
Jim, I'm with ya. If it sounds good, it is good. As good as it gets. The Photographer Complaintocracy is why I quit buying and selling Leicas. Every buyer thought a slightly "slow 1/500 speed" or "smells like smoke" (I don't) or "aperture has a little oil on blades...etc" was a reason to extort a partial refund, or come back to me 2 months after buying it here, using it for 10 rolls, then wanting a full refund. Half century old precision equipment is...guess what....no longer precision. If it ever was. People need to wake up and smell the coffee - you cannot buy a lens, camera, or shutter built when the 1955 Chevy was the "hot new car" and expect it to work as new. Sorry.

This forum is thankfully not like the Rangefinder forum, where every thread is full of name calling, anti-everything posts, and smug accusations and criticisms. Let's prevent that.

Doremus Scudder
29-Jan-2014, 08:24
As a matter of fact I use my ear very often for shutter speed. ... I put the speed at 1/2 and it goes djjjjjjjjjjjjt. Then I put it at 1/5 and it goes djjjjjjt. At 1/10th it goes djjjt and at 1/25th it goes djt. It 'sounds' right to me. .

Absolutely right and hilarious! And, I think we now have an official word (or words) for the sound a clockwork shutter makes, and it doesn't even need vowels. I'll add one second to the list: djjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjt...

Seriously, as a trained musician, I can discern quite accurately small time intervals down to about 1/15 of a second and less accurately to 1/30 or so. I've got a "built-in" idea of march tempo, which is 120 beats per minute. 1/32 of a second is simply 32nd notes at 120BPM, this is likely well within factory specs :)

Best,

Doremus

Michael E
29-Jan-2014, 16:42
Have you listened to a shutter that starts to get sticky? It starts off just fine, then hesitates, then resumes speed. "1 s" may be 1.5 or even 2 seconds. Have you listened to a shutter that still works, but is seriously sticky? It starts, comes to a complete halt, maybe resumes after anything from 5 seconds to a minute...

If the seller says the shutter sounds OK, I'm fine with that. It means I can use it it without a pricey overhaul (I do listen to it myself and expose accordingly).

Tin Can
29-Jan-2014, 18:55
I buy only from top sellers who have sold a lot off the things I am buying.

If the seller has only one lens for sale, I do not buy.

Seller reputation is paramount. Study the seller.

jp
29-Jan-2014, 19:32
Then consider what works for the seller in 85 degree south or southwest is going to get a little more stubborn up here where the thermostat is set for 60 and it's well below freezing in my truck.

Corran
29-Jan-2014, 20:33
I've often wondered about that but not once has a lens I sold gotten to its destination and been a problem, so I'm not sure if that's relevant unless the shutter already has obvious problems.

NancyP
14-Feb-2014, 17:55
How much should I expect to pay for a routine CLA of 0 or 1 size shutter and lens?

StoneNYC
15-Feb-2014, 06:16
How much should I expect to pay for a routine CLA of 0 or 1 size shutter and lens?

$100

DennisD
16-Feb-2014, 08:00
CLA is a straightforward job, but many of the better shops are slow due to workload. Be sure to ask how long your lens will be held.

I had a large 300mm Symmar shutter CLA'd by SK Grimes last year and they did a great job. They had the lens for about 3 weeks. I think the charge was around 125.plus shipping.

Jim Jones
16-Feb-2014, 09:59
. . . Leaf shutters do not open and close instantly so 1/300s may indeed be 1 stop less exposure than say 1/200. It's the nature of leaf shutters. Leaf shutter speed scales can be based on open time, or on exposure amount, but not both. The supposedly "slow" top speeds of leaf shutters can't be considered "incorrect" in an absolute way, they could actually be considered "more correct" than a shutter with "correct" open time but probably unexpectedly low exposure.

This is an important consideration that has not been mentioned in any other response in this thread. Testing the top speed of a between-the-lens shutter is valid only when the aperture is also indicated. Testing with the aperture wide open will inevitably yield a longer reading than actual exposure on film will prove. Only a tester that integrates the light passed by the shutter at the aperture the photographer uses will be really precise. One reason a properly maintained hundred-year-old Speed Graphic focal plane shutter is more accurate in practical high-speed photography than the newest between-the-lens shutter is its near 100% efficiency.

BrianShaw
16-Feb-2014, 10:30
$100

to $135

Jac@stafford.net
16-Feb-2014, 11:13
Testing with the aperture wide open will inevitably yield a longer reading than actual exposure on film will prove.

Why and will it differ a significant amount? The moment the leaf shutter begins to open, light is distributed over the whole film, and continues over the whole film until it closes.
.

BrianShaw
16-Feb-2014, 16:04
Google "leaf shutter efficiency". The first two hits are the best reading. Compensation can be from one-third to one-whole stop. Another. Good source is Ansel Adams "The Camera".

Leigh
16-Feb-2014, 16:14
Why and will it differ a significant amount? The moment the leaf shutter begins to open, light is distributed over the whole film, and continues over the whole film until it closes.
But not in the same amount.

The shutter blades act exactly like the aperture diaphragm AFA light attenuation is concerned while opening and closing. Of course, due to the shape and operation of the shutter blades, they do make a clean circular hole.

If you observe the amplitude of the light at the film plane, it ramps up to max, holds for time, then reduces to zero.

Neither the open ramp not the close ramp is instantaneous. They are in fact ramps.

When viewed on an oscilloscope, with the aperture diaphragm wide open, the shutter speed is defined as the time between the 50% amplitude points.

If you close the diaphragm, the distance between those 50% points will be longer because the shutter blades reach that point earlier or later, depending on whether it's opening or closing.

The existence of these ramps, and the fact that most hobbyists have neither the knowledge nor the equipment with which to properly measure shutter speed, is the reason for many claims of "error".

- Leigh

Jac@stafford.net
17-Feb-2014, 09:06
Thanks for that, Leigh. I will learn-up.

Tin Can
17-Feb-2014, 11:12
Dwell time.

Read the last comment.

Discussion of LF shutters from 2001.

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/003Cr2

Jac@stafford.net
17-Feb-2014, 14:15
Dwell time.

Read the last comment.

Discussion of LF shutters from 2001.

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/003Cr2

Most excellent, Randy. Thanks to you, too.

BrianShaw
18-Feb-2014, 07:36
...

catalinajack
21-Feb-2014, 16:41
Guys, it was not my intention to offend anyone but my post sure has provoked many opinions, and few that echo mine so I guess I was a bit off the mark. For those who have a good ear for speeds, good for you. You are among those who understand used shutters and what the representations may mean. My concern was for the newbies which, I assume we all welcome. New to large format folks will not likely know what the veterans here know so when a shutter is advertised in the manner as I described, those newbies may not fully understand what they are getting. That was my main concern and I think it still to be a valid concern.


So here is a new question. What is the best way to advertise a shutter such that new guys and veterans will understand what they can expect when they purchase a shutter? What wording would you suggest? Forgive me but "sounds about right" just doesn't do it for me. In my opinion, it leaves far too much left to interpretation.

Leigh
21-Feb-2014, 16:51
Jack,

I believe the fallacy with your original post is ignoring the fact that the equipment being sold is used.

ALL used equipment exhibits wear and degradation of one sort or another, perhaps cosmetic, perhaps functional, but always present.

Trying to interpret a sale as if it was new is just putting lipstick on a pig.

What is the best way to advertise a shutter such that new guys and veterans will understand what they can expect when they purchase a shutter? What wording would you suggest?
There is one word that succinctly and accurately describes the offering: USED.

You're attempting to define constraints on a sale that simply do not exist in the real world.

If you want something with known and guaranteed functional specs, the description is: NEW.

- Leigh

Jmarmck
21-Feb-2014, 17:09
But despite all the above (all very good points), for me the main question I must ask myself as a buyer is, "Can I trust what the seller is saying?" I am not calling the seller anything less that honest but rather questioning their experience and/or judgement. Such statements are meant to insure the seller that nothing is amiss. No matter how accurate or inaccurate the statements, the buyer is the one that must make the decision. If I have evidence that the seller is honest and experienced with the gear they are selling, then the seller can make a more intellegent decision. This is why I like the "Sellers" thread. It is in support of the seller, something we all could use.

It is all a matter of trust.

Alan Gales
21-Feb-2014, 17:15
If I were to sell a shutter to you or another member, I would test the shutter with my Calumet shutter speed tester and give you my results.

If you don't have a shutter speed tester then explain what speeds you used with the shutter and how your exposures were.

Like I said earlier, if you sell on Ebay and list that a couple of the fast speeds are a 1/2 or a stop off you will get less money. At least that has been my experience.

Jmarmck
21-Feb-2014, 17:20
Yes, it is interesting what is not said in the descriptions. Those are the ones I avoid.

Alan Gales
21-Feb-2014, 17:30
Yes, it is interesting what is not said in the descriptions. Those are the ones I avoid.

I've noticed lately that a few Ebay Sellers don't even mention the shutter beyond maybe saying it looks nice.

Bill_4606
21-Feb-2014, 19:38
I too struggle with definite terms like "accurate" unless they are intended to indicate certified testing -- as I think about it, perhaps "sounds appropriate" is a better way of stating the intent.
However, I think that when buying any piece of USED mechanical or electronic equipment, you have assume that it is not "accurate" unless the seller claims it was recently serviced and calibrated by a qualified technician. That means that if it's USED, assume it's not accurate and adjust your willingness to purchase appropriately. I do appreciate the sellers' intent to indicate that it sounds like it's changing speeds at all intervals. I get what they are trying to say and I don't read anything else into it. Again, I'll adjust my willingness to pay their price accordingly.

On the subject of checking shutters by sound... I often use a program on my PC that inputs the shutter sound through the mic and gives me a time interval. I've compared it to calibrated instruments and it's very close especially at speeds 1/250 and slower -- close enough for my needs anyway. I guess that sounds accurate - :)

catalinajack
26-Feb-2014, 12:22
Leigh, I am not ignoring the fact that the equipment is USED. In fact, that is just my point. But using the kinds of vague, undefined, ill-defined terms such as I noted is simply not helpful to newer folks. Vets such as you know, many others do not. Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?

Darin Boville
26-Feb-2014, 12:41
Guys,

Everyone knows that the shutter speeds--even when new--are not accurate. We all know that 1/500 and 1/400 are not what they say. We all know that used equipment drifts even further out of spec.

I'm afraid "sounds about right," especially at the lower speeds is all you are going to get because only a tiny percentage of LF photographers test their shutters or have access to a shutter tester. Most think that close is good enough. What we really care about in the item description is to make sure the shutter isn't all gunked up--that a 1/2 second sound like a half second and not like three seconds. That the winding sound doesn't sort of peter out half way through. That both springs are working.

Then, if you are shooting in a serious way, you send them off to have them cleaned *anyway*--since they haven't been looked at in god knows how many years--and then you'll have the shutter adjusted and will know the true settings. Wishing all the e-bay and LFF sellers did this for you ahead of time is just wishful thinking.

Just buy the lenses you want, have them CLA'd and get on with it!

You're not talking about science here or selling description standards, you're just talking about saving a few bucks.

--Darin

BrianShaw
26-Feb-2014, 13:55
Amen.

Tin Can
26-Feb-2014, 14:07
Yes, Darin has defined it. I dislike buying lenses, but I hate selling them even more, so I don't.

My best deals, have been buying groups of lenses from a quitting pro or collector in one package. AS IS, with no quible.

I really don't understand selling good lenses with a fair shutter for give away prices.

As I have said before, nobody will ever make new LF lenses and shutters. This is it. Savor them.

Leigh
26-Feb-2014, 16:18
Leigh, I am not ignoring the fact that the equipment is USED.
Yes you are.

Very few sellers have the equipment required to properly test shutter speeds.

I do, because I repair shutters. Only a handful of our members actually do repairs.

Whenever you buy a shutter, whether new or used, you need to run some film tests.

If you don't like the description, don't buy the item. That's true of any product, not just lenses.

- Leigh

Dan Fromm
26-Feb-2014, 19:28
If you don't like the description, don't buy the item. That's true of any product, not just lenses.

Good advice, but it needs a slight modification for used lenses in shutter. Buy only when the price, including delivery of the lens to you, plus the cost of a round trip to the shop and the shop's likely charges for making the shutter right is no more than the lens is worth to you.

Jim Galli
26-Feb-2014, 19:39
OK, so next time I sell an old Ektar in an Ilex Universal Synchro 4 shutter I'll go ahead and test the speeds, and the ad will look something like this;

Kodak Ektar 7 1/2" lens in Ilex Shutter. Shutter speeds are; 1.0768, .6682, .2276, .1314, .0396, and .0298

I just made catalinajack happy happy happy, but all I did was confuse everyone else. Who's going to buy that? Seriously? Is that what you think sellers should do? Then, who's the seller police that makes everyone do that so it's an even playing field?

Tin Can
26-Feb-2014, 19:47
I am quite happy with, 'sounds good at 1 second', as that is how I test my own shutters after I ring bring them down from 1/60th. Warm these things up. Don't we all test fire several times before an exposure?

I bought several dozen shutters once off a dead collector, ALL his shutters were set at 1 second. I learned from a dead man.

Taija71A
26-Feb-2014, 20:24
____

Darin: >> Post #54 in this Thread. (*Very well stated!). +1
Leigh: >> Whenever you buy a shutter, whether new or used, you need to run some film tests. (*Exactly!). +1

:)
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