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gorsescent
23-Jan-2014, 18:53
I've been shooting 4x5 for since 1994. However, I've never come across these problems.

Yesterday, for the first time in my life, the same problem happened to 3 of my 4x5 films.

I properly loaded these films into a film holder (as usual).

I properly loaded the film holder into the back of my 4x5 camera (as usual).

I properly (and carefully) developed the films in trays (as usual).

In short, I didn't do anything improper to the films.

I'm wondering if my 4x5 film holders caused these problems. I purchased several used film holders 3 months ago. They look very OK on the oustide. However, it's difficult to tell if every part of them is light tight.

Has anyone had the same problem?

Michael Clark
23-Jan-2014, 19:15
Maybe a light leak from the camera, bellows or the seat around the holder and camera back. The edges on the rebate of the film have not been fogged as bad as the rest of the neg.

AtlantaTerry
23-Jan-2014, 21:02
The only way to know if the holder or camera was at fault is to burn 6 more sheets of film.

3: put into the film holders then move them around in bright sun light. Don't put them into a camera. Develop.

If there are no fogging problems then try the next step.

3: put in a room with subdued light put into a camera, leave the lens cap on, remove the dark slide. Shine a bright light all around the camera. Develop.



While you are in the darkened room put a bright flashlight into the camera then move it around to see if the bellows have developed a light leak.

Are you sure the shutter fully closes? Remove the back but leave the lens in place. Use the bright flashlight to see if the lens or lens board has a light leak.

I believe if you do this, any problems will show up.

Lachlan 717
23-Jan-2014, 21:19
Process a single unexposed sheet to make sure that it's not film stock.

cyrus
23-Jan-2014, 22:14
If I had to guess, the filmholder was jostled or not seated right something while exposing, perhaps when pulling or inserting the dark slide

gorsescent
23-Jan-2014, 23:12
Excuse me. I made a grammatical error.

I've been shooting 4x5 for since 1994.

→I've been shooting 4x5 since 1994.

gorsescent
24-Jan-2014, 00:48
Hello. I'd like to thank all of you for your kind opinions.

Especially, AtlantaTerry's idea was very good. I'll do as you suggested.

Daniel Stone
24-Jan-2014, 00:54
looks like the film wasn't totally submerged for a portion of the time(hence lighter color(less density when viewing the backlit negative))?

-Dan

Doremus Scudder
24-Jan-2014, 02:51
Pinhole in the bellows or the lensboard (near the front of the camera likely)

Camera back not seating properly, or pulled away when removing/inserting the darkslide.

Those are my two bets.

Best,

Doremus

Vaughn
24-Jan-2014, 08:36
It looks like the film is okay and the holders are okay. The fogging is coming in at a steep angle as there is a shadow line from part of the holder all across the film -- which seems to mean it was not a pinhole in the bellows. I'll go with Doremus' second possibility..."Camera back not seating properly, or pulled away when removing/inserting the darkslide."

If you have a Calumet or other camera with detachable bellows, I would double check to make sure they are properly attached.

Pawlowski6132
24-Jan-2014, 09:02
looks like the film wasn't totally submerged for a portion of the time(hence lighter color(less density when viewing the backlit negative))?

-Dan

I was thinking it also seems like a development issue.

A light leak would have caused INCREASED density in local areas. Assuming this wasn't a long exposure (1 s) I can't see where a mishandling of the dark slide on the film holder wold have caused this.

If you didn't remove the holder you would have NO image on part of the negative. It appears however that you have an image on the entire film.

Somehow the light band received less development it would appear.

Larry Gebhardt
24-Jan-2014, 12:58
It looks like the film is okay and the holders are okay. The fogging is coming in at a steep angle as there is a shadow line from part of the holder all across the film -- which seems to mean it was not a pinhole in the bellows. I'll go with Doremus' second possibility..."Camera back not seating properly, or pulled away when removing/inserting the darkslide."

If you have a Calumet or other camera with detachable bellows, I would double check to make sure they are properly attached.

That's what I was going to suggest as well. Look on the side opposite of where you insert the film. The film edges are fogged at the top of the film holder, so the light was shining on that area. The fact that there's a strong shadow line indicates it isn't the coming in through the dark slide slot. So I'd check that the back or bellows aren't loose.

Vaughn
24-Jan-2014, 13:20
That's what I was going to suggest as well. Look on the side opposite of where you insert the film. The film edges are fogged at the top of the film holder, so the light was shining on that area. The fact that there's a strong shadow line indicates it isn't the coming in through the dark slide slot. So I'd check that the back or bellows aren't loose.

Actually the leak is coming from the side of the insertion point/slot...but not, as pointed out, from the film holder's light trap. The notches are on the bottom of the holder as one slides it in for a vertical shot. This is the kind of fogging (looking at the rebate, it does not look at all like a development issue) that occurs with weak springs and/or not pulling the darkslide straight out -- causing the film holder to come away from the back of the camera. Or sometimes a bellows coming unattached on the camera -- but probably not since the same pattern is on horizontal image (I am guessing the first neg is a vertical).

Luis-F-S
24-Jan-2014, 16:47
You should be able to load 4x5 paper in the holders instead of film to check for leaks. Much cheaper that way. L

gorsescent
24-Jan-2014, 19:53
I'd like to thank all of you for your opinions.

By the way, I took 4 pictures of the same scene on the same day, and others were OK.

The density of the sky area is not even but it's OK. That's how the sky was on this day.

109153

lenser
24-Jan-2014, 19:58
Please describe your processing techniques and equipment.

I am strongly leaning with those who mentioned processing errors. It really looks like you may have used a tank like a Yankee or Arkay, inserted the film with the notches down, didn't add enough developer, and got the uneven lines of density due to how those tanks are agitated by sloshing the developer back and forth.

Even with a loose back, a light leak usually diffuses and spreads rather than having this clear a delineation.

Vaughn
25-Jan-2014, 01:06
I know of no processing errors that causes density to build up on some (not all) of the film's rebate.

The light leak comes in strongly from the top of the film holder. The lighter portion of the neg is caused by the holder's shadow thrown by the light leak. A leak in the felt light-trap would have also exposed this area of the film (including the rebate). The direction of the light leaking in is shown by its being able to get under the loading flap and partially fogging the rebate under the loading flap (the end with the notches). This could not happen if the light was coming from any other direction. Having some negs come out fine seems to indicate a operator-error with the camera/film holder -- not processing, nor problems with the film manufacture.

Most likely (90%) cause (my opinion, of course -- along with 25 years of figuring out students' mistakes with the 4x5) is the film holder being pulled slightly back when removing the darkslide before exposure. Other possible causes (9%) is not seating the holder all the way in and accidently putting the darkslide in between the holder and the camera back instead of in the film holder's slot (1%).

YMMD, of course.

Daniel Stone
25-Jan-2014, 01:22
I made my comment regarding a "processing error" because the OP stated that he used TRAY development to process these sheets. Having started with tray processing, I quickly found out that sheets CAN curl when in the developer, and occasionally when processing a rather thick(8-10 sheets/run) stack of negatives, occasionally a sheet can have an end stick out of the chemistry.

This is usually a problem when the processing is first started, in the first 30s-1min or so, where sufficient agitation is critical to not get mottling/agitation marks and/or streaking.

I had this similar type of issue with 8x10, where one end was under-processed, simply because I didn't make sure that the ENTIRE sheet was submerged, and one end might have been slightly out of the chemistry, but long enough to do sufficient, irreparable damage. The negative was then rendered essentially useless.

-Dan

gorsescent
25-Jan-2014, 07:57
I used trays to develop the films (Tri-X 320). The developer was Kodak D76. The dilution ratio was 1:1. I put 4 litres of this chemical in a tray and processed them for 5 minutes 50 seconds at 68 degrees. Not 8 or 9 minutes. The films were overexposed by 1 f-stop so I cut the processing time. I developed them 1 by 1 so I could carefully develop them.

The 3 films were not developed together. However, they ended up with very similar problems. Also, they were not used in the same film holders.

I don't think there was something wrong with the way I processed and fixed them.

Vaughn
25-Jan-2014, 09:16
Dan, I have never had that developing issue -- alas, I usually keep my fingers in the chemistry way too much. I also flip the neg over several times before for the first 30 to 60 sec of development before pushing it to the bottom of the tray (emulsion up). But then I never have tried developing more than one neg at a time in a tray -- too scared of scratches. My hat off to those who do multiple negs in a tray! Fortunately I do not expose many negatives at a time either. I did develop two 4x5's at a time -- each in its own 5x7 tray, both trays in a 11x14 tray.

The lighter end of the negs seem to be from a lack of fogging, not a lack of development. This is made clear (to me, anyway) by the extra density right at the edge of the transition zone between the light and dark area. My opinion...this extra density can not be caused by development...only by fogging.

gorsescent
25-Jan-2014, 18:41
It's a good guess that you thought the films were not completely submerged in the developer. It's a very reasonable guess.

However, that's not the case. While I was putting it in the developer, my hands were always touching it to make sure that every part of the film was always submerged in the chemical.

Also, when the films were in the chemicals, they were not curly. They began to get curly when they were dried.

gorsescent
26-Jan-2014, 03:16
Hello. Excuse my grammatical error again.

I've been shooting 4x5 since 1994.

→I began to shoot 4x5 in 1994.

I hope you'll be understanding of my poor English. I have to work on my English much more. Much more.

keith schreiber
26-Jan-2014, 12:29
I've had what looks to be the same issue with my old 7x17. It's definitely not a processing issue. I'm not positive, but I don't think this is caused by a problem with the bellows. I my case, I'm fairly certain it had to do with modern film holders that did not quite fit the camera back. When I got the camera, an old Korona, it came with 5 holders, 2 vintage and 3 modern. On 2 of the modern holders, the rib was at a slightly different distance from the end of the holder, which made it possible to insert the holder a bit too far, allowing light to leak in from the slot side of the back. My leaks were (hopeful past tense!) always on the slot side, never on the flap side. I have replaced those particular holders with ones that fit properly.

109252

109251

gorsescent
27-Jan-2014, 04:59
Hello Mr. Schreiber. Thank you for sharing your experience with me.

I agree with you. I also think there is something wrong with my film holders.

mike rosenlof
27-Jan-2014, 10:18
Hello. Excuse my grammatical error again.

I've been shooting 4x5 since 1994.

→I began to shoot 4x5 in 1994.

I hope you'll be understanding of my poor English. I have to work on my English much more. Much more.

Both are grammatically correct. You're doing fine.

gorsescent
31-Jan-2014, 04:48
Thank you!